Le 25/01/2017 à 18:17, Guillaume Paumier a écrit :

Hi,

It is indeed referring to the Board of Trustees. Another common translation that I've seen for "Board" in French is "Conseil d'administration".

Well, that's sound less whimsical to my mind. Now as it seems Trustee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trustee is a word with a precise legal definition in common law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law, and I don't know if there is any really good transposable term in a civil law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_law_%28legal_system%29 terminology. In French, it seems that depending on context you might also use "curateur", "fidéicommisaire".

So from a legal point of view, I must admit I don't know what would be the most appropriate, but from what I'm accustomed to hear, "Conseil d’adminstration" seems the less odd.

Le 25 janv. 2017 06:08, "mathieu stumpf guntz" <psychoslave@culture-libre.org mailto:psychoslave@culture-libre.org> a écrit :

I'm working on this:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate&group=agg-2017_Wikimedia_movement_strategy_process&language=eo&filter=%21translated&action=translate
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate&group=agg-2017_Wikimedia_movement_strategy_process&language=eo&filter=%21translated&action=translate>

where "Board" is a recurring term.

I guess that it is referring to the board of trustees
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Board_of_trustees>. Am I wrong?

If not, in the previous link, translations are rather parse in
their meaning (as far as I can say):

  * Kuratorium
  * Consejo directivo
  * Zuzendaritza Batzordea
  * Comité des sages
  * Rada Powiernicza
  * Conselho Diretivo

I translated "trustees" it in Esperanto to "kuratoro" (you find
the same roots in the German translation), and "board of trustees"
as "kuratoraro" (group of "kuratoro"), but "board" alone as
"estraro" (group of leader/boss/chief).

Any comment is welcome.


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Le 26/01/2017 à 12:02, Vi to a écrit :

For Italian I use "board" and "membro del board/componente del board [board member]".

I strongly disagree with such a practice. To my mind it might give the feeling that only English can be used when it comes to talk about the most formal part of our movement. That is, crossing the line between English as a practical tool of international communication and English as a tool of imperialism destroying language diversity.

I hope no-one will wrongly interpret me here. I have no problem with loanwords for a concept which is specific, for example "shérif" is fine. And if it would happen that "trustee" is as specific as is "sheriff", I wouldn't mind a loanword.

But in the case of "board", there is certainly no lake of equivalent whether in French, or in Italian as far as I know. To my mind, this is unnecessarily opaque term for non-English speakers that we should avoid while we are in outreach activity. Sure when we are "between us" it's less problematic regarding cross-comprehension directly involved locutors. But it creates bad habits we will likely reproduce when new comers are around, which is problematic in regards to our openness commitment.

Pedantically, mathieu

Vito

2017-01-26 11:01 GMT+01:00 mathieu stumpf guntz <psychoslave@culture-libre.org mailto:psychoslave@culture-libre.org>:

Le 25/01/2017 à 18:17, Guillaume Paumier a écrit :

...

Hi,

It is indeed referring to the Board of Trustees. Another common
translation that I've seen for "Board" in French is "Conseil
d'administration".

Well, that's sound less whimsical to my mind. Now as it seems
Trustee <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trustee> is a word with a
precise legal definition in common law
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law>, and I don't know if
there is any really good transposable term in a civil law
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_law_%28legal_system%29>
terminology. In French, it seems that depending on context you
might also use "curateur", "fidéicommisaire".

So from a legal point of view, I must admit I don't know what
would be the most appropriate, but from what I'm accustomed to
hear, "Conseil d’adminstration" seems the less odd.

...

Le 25 janv. 2017 06:08, "mathieu stumpf guntz"
<psychoslave@culture-libre.org
<mailto:psychoslave@culture-libre.org>> a écrit :

    I'm working on this:

    https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate&group=agg-2017_Wikimedia_movement_strategy_process&language=eo&filter=%21translated&action=translate
    <https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate&group=agg-2017_Wikimedia_movement_strategy_process&language=eo&filter=%21translated&action=translate>

    where "Board" is a recurring term.

    I guess that it is referring to the board of trustees
    <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Board_of_trustees>. Am I wrong?

    If not, in the previous link, translations are rather parse
    in their meaning (as far as I can say):

      * Kuratorium
      * Consejo directivo
      * Zuzendaritza Batzordea
      * Comité des sages
      * Rada Powiernicza
      * Conselho Diretivo

    I translated "trustees" it in Esperanto to "kuratoro" (you
    find the same roots in the German translation), and "board of
    trustees" as "kuratoraro" (group of "kuratoro"), but "board"
    alone as "estraro" (group of leader/boss/chief).

    Any comment is welcome.


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Well, /s//ta a te/. ;)

Le 26/01/2017 à 16:01, Vi to a écrit :

...while I strongly disagree with making up terms. I don't want to use terms with a different connotation.

Vito

2017-01-26 15:47 GMT+01:00 mathieu stumpf guntz <psychoslave@culture-libre.org mailto:psychoslave@culture-libre.org>:

Le 26/01/2017 à 12:02, Vi to a écrit :

...

For Italian I use "board" and "membro del board/componente del
board [board member]".

I strongly disagree with such a practice. To my mind it might give
the feeling that only English can be used when it comes to talk
about the most formal part of our movement. That is, crossing the
line between English as a practical tool of international
communication and English as a tool of imperialism destroying
language diversity.

I hope no-one will wrongly interpret me here. I have no problem
with loanwords for a concept which is specific, for example
"shérif" is fine. And if it would happen that "trustee" is as
specific as is "sheriff", I wouldn't mind a loanword.

But in the case of "board", there is certainly no lake of
equivalent whether in French, or in Italian as far as I know. To
my mind, this is unnecessarily opaque term for non-English
speakers that we should avoid while we are in outreach activity.
Sure when we are "between us" it's less problematic regarding
cross-comprehension directly involved locutors. But it creates bad
habits we will likely reproduce when new comers are around, which
is problematic in regards to our openness commitment.

Pedantically,
mathieu

...

Vito

2017-01-26 11:01 GMT+01:00 mathieu stumpf guntz
<psychoslave@culture-libre.org
<mailto:psychoslave@culture-libre.org>>:



    Le 25/01/2017 à 18:17, Guillaume Paumier a écrit :

...

    Hi,

    It is indeed referring to the Board of Trustees. Another
    common translation that I've seen for "Board" in French is
    "Conseil d'administration".

    Well, that's sound less whimsical to my mind. Now as it seems
    Trustee <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trustee> is a word
    with a precise legal definition in common law
    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law>, and I don't know
    if there is any really good transposable term in a civil law
    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_law_%28legal_system%29>
    terminology. In French, it seems that depending on context
    you might also use "curateur", "fidéicommisaire".

    So from a legal point of view, I must admit I don't know what
    would be the most appropriate, but from what I'm accustomed
    to hear, "Conseil d’adminstration" seems the less odd.

...

    Le 25 janv. 2017 06:08, "mathieu stumpf guntz"
    <psychoslave@culture-libre.org
    <mailto:psychoslave@culture-libre.org>> a écrit :

        I'm working on this:

        https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate&group=agg-2017_Wikimedia_movement_strategy_process&language=eo&filter=%21translated&action=translate
        <https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate&group=agg-2017_Wikimedia_movement_strategy_process&language=eo&filter=%21translated&action=translate>

        where "Board" is a recurring term.

        I guess that it is referring to the board of trustees
        <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Board_of_trustees>. Am
        I wrong?

        If not, in the previous link, translations are rather
        parse in their meaning (as far as I can say):

          * Kuratorium
          * Consejo directivo
          * Zuzendaritza Batzordea
          * Comité des sages
          * Rada Powiernicza
          * Conselho Diretivo

        I translated "trustees" it in Esperanto to "kuratoro"
        (you find the same roots in the German translation), and
        "board of trustees" as "kuratoraro" (group of
        "kuratoro"), but "board" alone as "estraro" (group of
        leader/boss/chief).

        Any comment is welcome.


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(1) I am not a lawyer, so you should read the next statement at your own risk.

(2) In Florida (USA) law (which I believe is the relevant state), all corporations, including all non-profit corporations,[*] have a "board of directors". It is the same term used for for-profit corporations such as Apple, Inc. or Walmart, Inc. "Board of trustees" is treated as an exact synonym.

As a shortcut, you could find out what the committee in charge of large, independent non-profit organizations in your area are called. The WMF's Board of Trustees should probably be called the same thing as the group that controls, say, Médecins Sans Frontières/Doctors Without Borders.

[*] Almost all non-profit organizations in the United States are corporations. It's very easy to create a corporation here.

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 9:39 AM Lena Traer ltraer@wikimedia.org wrote:

Hi Guillaume,

Would you say that the Board of Trustees at WMF has the same role as the traditional Board of Directors? If that is the case, "Conseil d'administration" likely is most appropriate translation.

Spanish: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consejo_de_administraci%C3%B3n Italian: https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consiglio_di_amministrazione

In Russian, the "board" is also translated as "council". However, "Board of Directors" and "Board of Trustees" translate slightly differently. I think non-profit organizations are likely to use "Board of Trustees" whereas for-profit corporations use "Board of Directors".

My two cents. Thanks, Lena

On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 9:17 AM, Guillaume Paumier <gpaumier@wikimedia.org

...

wrote:

Hi,

It is indeed referring to the Board of Trustees. Another common translation that I've seen for "Board" in French is "Conseil d'administration".

Le 25 janv. 2017 06:08, "mathieu stumpf guntz" < psychoslave@culture-libre.org> a écrit :

I'm working on this:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate&group=agg...

where "Board" is a recurring term.

I guess that it is referring to the board of trustees https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Board_of_trustees. Am I wrong?

If not, in the previous link, translations are rather parse in their meaning (as far as I can say):

• Kuratorium
• Consejo directivo
• Zuzendaritza Batzordea
• Comité des sages
• Rada Powiernicza
• Conselho Diretivo

I translated "trustees" it in Esperanto to "kuratoro" (you find the same roots in the German translation), and "board of trustees" as "kuratoraro" (group of "kuratoro"), but "board" alone as "estraro" (group of leader/boss/chief).

Any comment is welcome.

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Hello,

2017-01-26 9:38 GMT-08:00 Lena Traer ltraer@wikimedia.org:

Would you say that the Board of Trustees at WMF has the same role as the traditional Board of Directors? If that is the case, "Conseil d'administration" likely is most appropriate translation.

In Russian, the "board" is also translated as "council". However, "Board of Directors" and "Board of Trustees" translate slightly differently. I think non-profit organizations are likely to use "Board of Trustees" whereas for-profit corporations use "Board of Directors".

I'm not very familiar with the legal intricacies of the different kinds of Boards. To be completely accurate, the best term would probably be the English one ("Board of Trustees"), simply because it has an official definition in a specific geography and doesn't have an exact equivalent in other locales. But for the reasons given by Matthieu, it's generally better to try and find the closest approximation.

In France, both non-profit organizations and for-profit organizations can have a "Conseil d'administration". It's also the French phrase we've been using on the Foundation's website since 2004 (although the page hasn't been kept up-to-date with changes in Board members recently): https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Conseil_d%27administration

Hope this helps :)

I too am not a lawyer, however, having been involved with a lot of nonprofit governance, I think that for these purposes, in other languages, yes - "Board of Trustees” and “Board of Directors” are basically interchangeable. The selection of words is usually a stylistic or homage based reason more than a legal distinction. That is not always the case, and when available, I recommend using “Board of Trustees” - but if there’s a language issue presented by this, I think "Board of Directors" is a reasonable substitute to base a translation on. Again, I say that not being with Legal and not as an official WMF recommendation, just my own personal two cents. :)

-greg

On Jan 26, 2017, at 3:07 PM, Guillaume Paumier gpaumier@wikimedia.org wrote:

Hello,

2017-01-26 9:38 GMT-08:00 Lena Traer ltraer@wikimedia.org:

...

Would you say that the Board of Trustees at WMF has the same role as the traditional Board of Directors? If that is the case, "Conseil d'administration" likely is most appropriate translation.

In Russian, the "board" is also translated as "council". However, "Board of Directors" and "Board of Trustees" translate slightly differently. I think non-profit organizations are likely to use "Board of Trustees" whereas for-profit corporations use "Board of Directors".

I'm not very familiar with the legal intricacies of the different kinds of Boards. To be completely accurate, the best term would probably be the English one ("Board of Trustees"), simply because it has an official definition in a specific geography and doesn't have an exact equivalent in other locales. But for the reasons given by Matthieu, it's generally better to try and find the closest approximation.

In France, both non-profit organizations and for-profit organizations can have a "Conseil d'administration". It's also the French phrase we've been using on the Foundation's website since 2004 (although the page hasn't been kept up-to-date with changes in Board members recently): https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Conseil_d%27administration

Hope this helps :)

-- Guillaume Paumier

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I don't think that this internal name has any legal binding, only the name of the WMF as a whole is legally bound (plus additional translations if they have been registered by the WMF as reserved brands). The generic legal term is independant of the existence of the WMF itself and would apply to other organizations. Locally, it may still have translations even if it works according to a legal definition. So it does not matter for example if we have "foundations", "associations" for non-profit organizations (but generally to benefit from tax-exemptions and accept donations, those organizations need some legal accounting and will be incorportated in the US

In Europe this is not necessary, associations work as non-profit and may accept donations and benefit from tax-exmpotion provided they have a reliable accounting, and most of them will have their accounting certified by an external auditor, generally a commerical company or certified professional; there are a few other requirements for tax-exemptions: tracability, social reponsabilities if they emply people, annual meeting, an elected "bureau", but membership is generally accessible to everyone, including corporates, and membership fees are payed depending on status of members but notamlly do not give excessive voting rights to corporates; if these corporate members have a majority of votes or someone controls more than 50% of votes, it can no longer be an association and the organization will have to become a corporation/company and the association dissolved.

"Foundations" in US are much more relaxed because only one member may have the full power on it and may provide almost all its working budget, other members only have a consultative right. These would be coprorations in Europe and would not be eligible to provide tax-emptions to donators, unless these donators are gourped in a separate affiliate where members have some decision and auditing power.

Anyway US is still not officially not a single-language country (English is not really an official language, it is just used "de facto" and many places in US accept other languages, notably French, Spanish, or native Amerindian languages in some areas). So various federal laws are effectively written origiannly in other languages (Spanish and French) and were translated only later (but in case of interpretation conflicts, the original versions are still binding and prevail). That's why so many contracts, and acts in US are explicitly stating the language in which it is origianally written, and explicitly assign a competent court in one specific state. The local jurisprudence has extablished the equivalences of terms on a case by case basis by interpreting the acts and contracts and just see if they were "fair", i.e. not abusive, and clear enough for all contractors when they were adopted/registered.

English is just used "de facto" at the federal level, but member states may have other official or working languages, and federal laws are not directly applicable in states without adoption by them (and states can still veto some laws voted at federal level, or change "legal terms"). Effectively the WMF is not really bound to US law but to the laws of the US state where it is registered and other states where it has some operations. What is then important is its act of incorporation in that state, whose language is significant and prevails in case to conflicts with other languages used and recognized in the same state.

But legal terms is one thing: for general communication, in documents that are not contractual or mandated by authorities or applicable laws, the WMF may still accept to have translations of its internal bodies and use them, because it will help better explain its activities to the world and to contributors. These internal boeies anyway are not trademarks and cannot be reserved for exclusive use by the WMF.

2017-01-26 21:14 GMT+01:00 Gregory Varnum greg.varnum@gmail.com:

I will also share - from Affiliations Committee experience - that many affiliates use “Board of Directors” based language - but are still making an effort to in general mimic basic WMF nonprofit legal values (although not exact Board selection process, to be fair).

-greg

...

On Jan 26, 2017, at 3:12 PM, Gregory Varnum greg.varnum@gmail.com

wrote:

...

I too am not a lawyer, however, having been involved with a lot of

nonprofit governance, I think that for these purposes, in other languages, yes - "Board of Trustees” and “Board of Directors” are basically interchangeable. The selection of words is usually a stylistic or homage based reason more than a legal distinction. That is not always the case, and when available, I recommend using “Board of Trustees” - but if there’s a language issue presented by this, I think "Board of Directors" is a reasonable substitute to base a translation on. Again, I say that not being with Legal and not as an official WMF recommendation, just my own personal two cents. :)

...

-greg

...

On Jan 26, 2017, at 3:07 PM, Guillaume Paumier gpaumier@wikimedia.org

wrote:

...

...

Hello,

2017-01-26 9:38 GMT-08:00 Lena Traer ltraer@wikimedia.org:

...

Would you say that the Board of Trustees at WMF has the same role as

the

...

...

...

traditional Board of Directors? If that is the case, "Conseil d'administration" likely is most appropriate translation.

In Russian, the "board" is also translated as "council". However,

"Board of

...

...

...

Directors" and "Board of Trustees" translate slightly differently. I

think

...

...

...

non-profit organizations are likely to use "Board of Trustees" whereas for-profit corporations use "Board of Directors".

I'm not very familiar with the legal intricacies of the different kinds of Boards. To be completely accurate, the best term would probably be the English one ("Board of Trustees"), simply because it has an official definition in a specific geography and doesn't have an exact equivalent in other locales. But for the reasons given by Matthieu, it's generally better to try and find the closest approximation.

In France, both non-profit organizations and for-profit organizations can have a "Conseil d'administration". It's also the French phrase we've been using on the Foundation's website since 2004 (although the page hasn't been kept up-to-date with changes in Board members recently): https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Conseil_d%

27administration

...

...

Hope this helps :)

-- Guillaume Paumier

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The text also refer to an "Executive Director", so I looked if there was an "Executive Board" to make sure "Board" couldn't be ambiguous. As far as I found, there was an "Executive committee" now "considered disbanded https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_committees#Executive_committee".

So, am I right thinking that there is no other "board" or "committee" with which the term "Board" and its translations might create confusion?

Le 26/01/2017 à 12:22, Ilario Valdelli a écrit :

"Consiglio direttivo" for languages connected with the latin.

In this case the translation is not a simple translation of wording but has a legal value and replicates the organizational aspects.

"Consiglio direttivo" or "Conseil de direction" or "Consejo directivo" is the body that gives the strategies and the direction to the executive body.

This is the choise we did in Switzerland to translate it in Italian and in French.

Personally I would appreciate a lot to translate "Board of Trustee" with "Consiglio di fondazione", but "Consiglio direttivo" clarifies better the role (in several foundations the decisional aspects are in charge of an executive director and of his cabinet).

Kind regards

On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 3:08 PM, mathieu stumpf guntz <psychoslave@culture-libre.org mailto:psychoslave@culture-libre.org> wrote:

I'm working on this:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate&group=agg-2017_Wikimedia_movement_strategy_process&language=eo&filter=%21translated&action=translate
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate&group=agg-2017_Wikimedia_movement_strategy_process&language=eo&filter=%21translated&action=translate>

where "Board" is a recurring term.

I guess that it is referring to the board of trustees
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Board_of_trustees>. Am I wrong?

If not, in the previous link, translations are rather parse in
their meaning (as far as I can say):

  * Kuratorium
  * Consejo directivo
  * Zuzendaritza Batzordea
  * Comité des sages
  * Rada Powiernicza
  * Conselho Diretivo

I translated "trustees" it in Esperanto to "kuratoro" (you find
the same roots in the German translation), and "board of trustees"
as "kuratoraro" (group of "kuratoro"), but "board" alone as
"estraro" (group of leader/boss/chief).

Any comment is welcome.


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-- Ilario Valdelli Wikimedia CH Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera Switzerland - 8008 Zürich Wikipedia: Ilario https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario Skype: valdelli Tel: +41764821371 http://www.wikimedia.ch http://www.wikimedia.ch/

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So, should we launch something to make possibly confusing terms more distinctive, or at least some recommendation about how should preferably name each of them in official documentation? Well, having a page defining Endowment Advisory Board roles and composition on Meta would also seems interesting to my mind. :)

As anyone suggestion about actionable items about that?

Le 27/01/2017 à 14:09, Alice Wiegand a écrit :

So, there is also a) the Advisory Board https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Advisory_Board and b) the Endowment Advisory Board as described in https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution:Establishment_of_Endowment

In the same resolution you after all find a mixed use of Board of Directors and Board of Trustees which I wasn't aware of when we voted (and which I find very confusing by myself).

Alice.

On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 10:01 AM, mathieu stumpf guntz <psychoslave@culture-libre.org mailto:psychoslave@culture-libre.org> wrote:

The text also refer to an "Executive Director", so I looked if
there was an "Executive Board" to make sure "Board" couldn't be
ambiguous. As far as I found, there was an "Executive committee"
now "considered disbanded
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_committees#Executive_committee>".

So, am I right thinking that there is no other "board" or
"committee" with which the term "Board" and its translations might
create confusion?


Le 26/01/2017 à 12:22, Ilario Valdelli a écrit :

...

"Consiglio direttivo" for languages connected with the latin.

In this case the translation is not a simple translation of
wording but has a legal value and replicates the organizational
aspects.

"Consiglio direttivo" or "Conseil de direction" or "Consejo
directivo" is the body that gives the strategies and the
direction to the executive body.

This is the choise we did in Switzerland to translate it in
Italian and in French.

Personally I would appreciate a lot to translate "Board of
Trustee" with "Consiglio di fondazione", but "Consiglio
direttivo" clarifies better the role (in several foundations the
decisional aspects are in charge of an executive director and of
his cabinet).

Kind regards



On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 3:08 PM, mathieu stumpf guntz
<psychoslave@culture-libre.org
<mailto:psychoslave@culture-libre.org>> wrote:

    I'm working on this:

    https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate&group=agg-2017_Wikimedia_movement_strategy_process&language=eo&filter=%21translated&action=translate
    <https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate&group=agg-2017_Wikimedia_movement_strategy_process&language=eo&filter=%21translated&action=translate>

    where "Board" is a recurring term.

    I guess that it is referring to the board of trustees
    <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Board_of_trustees>. Am I wrong?

    If not, in the previous link, translations are rather parse
    in their meaning (as far as I can say):

      * Kuratorium
      * Consejo directivo
      * Zuzendaritza Batzordea
      * Comité des sages
      * Rada Powiernicza
      * Conselho Diretivo

    I translated "trustees" it in Esperanto to "kuratoro" (you
    find the same roots in the German translation), and "board of
    trustees" as "kuratoraro" (group of "kuratoro"), but "board"
    alone as "estraro" (group of leader/boss/chief).

    Any comment is welcome.


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-- 
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Wikipedia: Ilario <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario>
Skype: valdelli
Tel: +41764821371
http://www.wikimedia.ch <http://www.wikimedia.ch/>


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