It is weird that, for example, chapters' pages on Meta should be written in English and then translated into native language -- according to current logic.
I agree with Charles, this change would be a step forward. Sure, translators-l will also agree.
*Vira Motorko*
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2014-08-14 16:43 GMT+03:00 Charles Andrès charles.andres.wmch@gmail.com:
Dear all,
I would like to draw your attention on the Translation Extension for Mediawiki, since 2 years now, community members ask to improve this extension by adding the possibility to select the original language. https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35489
We are in a movement where the knowledge exchange is a primary concern, we have a really good tools to facilitate the translation of the documentation, but today we are still obliged to first translate "manually" in English before being able to use the Translate extension.
I'm not a Tech guy, I try to read the bug's page linked before, and the only message I can get from is << you, non English speakers, are not our priority >>.
The ability to translate in multiple language the documentation created by non English speakers is a major challenge, we need to make it happen more often.
Everyday I heard French speaker saying that they do not belong to the Wikimedia Community because it's all in English/all for English, I do not pretend that improving the Translate extension will solve this issue, but it could be a little step forward.
thank for your attention
Charles
Charles ANDRES, Chief Science Officer "Wikimedia CH" - Association for the advancement of free knowledge - www.wikimedia.ch Office +41 (0)21 340 66 21 Mobile +41 (0)78 910 00 97 Skype: charles.andres.wmch IRC://irc.freenode.net/wikimedia-ch http://prezi.com/user/Andrescharles/
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Translate extension has supported for a long time having any language as the source language. There just has not been an interface in MediaWiki to set the source language of a page.
The good news is that Kunal Grover, a GSoC student has created Special:PageLanguage to do just that. [1] I expect it will be available quite soon.
In the future, please use a subject line which does not sound like an accusation.
-Niklas
[1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Kunalgrover05/Progress_Report
This is good development, but I don't see why we need a special page to define what is metadata of the page itself. May be it will be accessible from the VisualEditor; like we edit categories, but such metadata is a general need for lots of other applications. The general need would be to be able to associate metadata with a symbolic type to any page: just a few metadata is currently handled in MediaWiki: categories, default sortkeys, interwiki links, plus a few other flags inserted by using magic words (like __NOINDEX__).
There are also external metadata stored in Wikidata for some wiki projects. More are needed (e.g. for different typing sort keys). Any way I expect to see soon a reliable way to detect the page language including for translated pages; but more importantly for sources of translations without having to assume they are in English, or create thme in another language and creating a pseudo-translation to the original language by copying keys, then modifying the English source again but keeping the original text. At least, when we mark a new page for translation, we should immediately have an option asking in which language is the source; if it's not specifid by the new experimental Special:PageLanguage page (which is not necessarily needed).
And once a source page has been marked for translation, the Translate tool should have a simple API to query its language or the language used in the generated translations, And ideally, we should be able to swithc from one source language to another (for example some projects start in English, but are later managed in German or Chinese, or a local Chapter initially creates documents in its own local language such as French, Hindi or Spanish, and will not use English as the reference (this is important for pages reporting local projects mostly done in other languages, outside countries or regions with a majority of native English-speakers, i.e: most countries of the world, including Europe (and even North America where French and Spanish are very present too ; Spanish and Chinese are also growing fast in US, and here there are aslo local communities that would like to promote their own local projects in their native non-English tongue : do you remember that US does not have any "official" language ?).
2014-08-14 16:52 GMT+02:00 Niklas Laxström niklas.laxstrom@gmail.com:
Translate extension has supported for a long time having any language as the source language. There just has not been an interface in MediaWiki to set the source language of a page.
The good news is that Kunal Grover, a GSoC student has created Special:PageLanguage to do just that. [1] I expect it will be available quite soon.
In the future, please use a subject line which does not sound like an accusation.
-Niklas
[1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Kunalgrover05/Progress_Report
Translators-l mailing list Translators-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/translators-l
On Fri, 15 Aug 2014, at 00:52, Niklas Laxström wrote:
Translate extension has supported for a long time having any language as the source language. There just has not been an interface in MediaWiki to set the source language of a page.
The good news is that Kunal Grover, a GSoC student has created Special:PageLanguage to do just that. [1] I expect it will be available quite soon. [...]
[1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Kunalgrover05/Progress_Report
On Fri, 15 Aug 2014, at 01:50, Philippe Verdy wrote:
This is good development, but I don't see why we need a special page to define what is metadata of the page itself. [...]
Yes, I have same question.
On Fri, 15 Aug 2014, at 01:50, Philippe Verdy wrote:
May be it will be accessible from the VisualEditor; like we edit categories, but such metadata is a general need for lots of other applications. The general need would be to be able to associate metadata with a symbolic type to any page: just a few metadata is currently handled in MediaWiki: categories, default sortkeys, interwiki links, plus a few other flags inserted by using magic words (like __NOINDEX__).
There are also external metadata stored in Wikidata for some wiki projects. More are needed (e.g. for different typing sort keys). Any way I expect to see soon a reliable way to detect the page language including for translated pages; but more importantly for sources of translations without having to assume they are in English, or create thme in another language and creating a pseudo-translation to the original language by copying keys, then modifying the English source again but keeping the original text. At least, when we mark a new page for translation, we should immediately have an option asking in which language is the source; if it's not specifid by the new experimental Special:PageLanguage page (which is not necessarily needed).
And once a source page has been marked for translation, the Translate tool should have a simple API to query its language or the language used in the generated translations, And ideally, we should be able to swithc from one source language to another (for example some projects start in English, but are later managed in German or Chinese, or a local Chapter initially creates documents in its own local language such as French, Hindi or Spanish, and will not use English as the reference (this is important for pages reporting local projects mostly done in other languages, outside countries or regions with a majority of native English-speakers, i.e: most countries of the world, including Europe (and even North America where French and Spanish are very present too ; Spanish and Chinese are also growing fast in US, and here there are aslo local communities that would like to promote their own local projects in their native non-English tongue : do you remember that US does not have any "official" language ?).
Kunal Grover, could you please fill in about that?
svetlana
Thanks Niklas for the reply. Notwithstanding the subject line's snark, and despite the fact that components of the problem have been solved for a long time, from a user's perspective there hasn't been progress on the handicap (not being able to translate from languages other than English on Meta) as a whole for years now, which does run counter to our ethos of being multilingual and encouraging contributions in all languages. If Kunal succeeds, that would be great, but if he doesn't or it takes too long to integrate his work, I would recommend prioritising this issue somewhat higher and giving it the necessary resources at the WMF.
Best regards, Bence
On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 5:50 PM, Philippe Verdy verdy_p@wanadoo.fr wrote:
This is good development, but I don't see why we need a special page to define what is metadata of the page itself. May be it will be accessible from the VisualEditor; like we edit categories, but such metadata is a general need for lots of other applications. The general need would be to be able to associate metadata with a symbolic type to any page: just a few metadata is currently handled in MediaWiki: categories, default sortkeys, interwiki links, plus a few other flags inserted by using magic words (like __NOINDEX__).
There are also external metadata stored in Wikidata for some wiki projects. More are needed (e.g. for different typing sort keys). Any way I expect to see soon a reliable way to detect the page language including for translated pages; but more importantly for sources of translations without having to assume they are in English, or create thme in another language and creating a pseudo-translation to the original language by copying keys, then modifying the English source again but keeping the original text. At least, when we mark a new page for translation, we should immediately have an option asking in which language is the source; if it's not specifid by the new experimental Special:PageLanguage page (which is not necessarily needed).
And once a source page has been marked for translation, the Translate tool should have a simple API to query its language or the language used in the generated translations, And ideally, we should be able to swithc from one source language to another (for example some projects start in English, but are later managed in German or Chinese, or a local Chapter initially creates documents in its own local language such as French, Hindi or Spanish, and will not use English as the reference (this is important for pages reporting local projects mostly done in other languages, outside countries or regions with a majority of native English-speakers, i.e: most countries of the world, including Europe (and even North America where French and Spanish are very present too ; Spanish and Chinese are also growing fast in US, and here there are aslo local communities that would like to promote their own local projects in their native non-English tongue : do you remember that US does not have any "official" language ?).
2014-08-14 16:52 GMT+02:00 Niklas Laxström niklas.laxstrom@gmail.com:
Translate extension has supported for a long time having any language
as the source language. There just has not been an interface in MediaWiki to set the source language of a page.
The good news is that Kunal Grover, a GSoC student has created Special:PageLanguage to do just that. [1] I expect it will be available quite soon.
In the future, please use a subject line which does not sound like an accusation.
-Niklas
[1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Kunalgrover05/Progress_Report
Translators-l mailing list Translators-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/translators-l
Translators-l mailing list Translators-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/translators-l
Thanks Niklas for the reply. Notwithstanding the subject line's snark, and despite the fact that components of the problem have been solved for a long time, from a user's perspective there hasn't been progress on the handicap (not being able to translate from languages other than English on Meta) as a whole for years now, which does run counter to our ethos of being multilingual and encouraging contributions in all languages. If Kunal succeeds, that would be great, but if he doesn't or it takes too long to integrate his work, I would recommend prioritising this issue somewhat higher and giving it the necessary resources at the WMF.
Best regards, Bence
On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 4:52 PM, Niklas Laxström niklas.laxstrom@gmail.com wrote:
Translate extension has supported for a long time having any language as the source language. There just has not been an interface in MediaWiki to set the source language of a page.
The good news is that Kunal Grover, a GSoC student has created Special:PageLanguage to do just that. [1] I expect it will be available quite soon.
In the future, please use a subject line which does not sound like an accusation.
-Niklas
[1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Kunalgrover05/Progress_Report
Translators-l mailing list Translators-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/translators-l
Sorry for a bit offensive-could-be mood: Why not like an accusation? You've developed TUX which is less functional than tux=0 (no edit summary, no work on mobiles, slower work, no editing two units simultaneously, urge to develop strabismus to use translation helpers efficiently (but still scrolling won't allow working as in tux=0) and so on - I may continue) which even can't be permanently disabled via preferences but you waited for years for some random student to make the feature. IMHO accusation is well justified — don't be so "do-not-criticize-us"ous.
If it's now possible to have Translate for translatable pages in other langs than en it's quite great news — I think for instance chapters' wikis will want to have it.
27.08.2014 10:16, Bence Damokos написав(ла):
Thanks Niklas for the reply. Notwithstanding the subject line's snark, and despite the fact that components of the problem have been solved for a long time, from a user's perspective there hasn't been progress on the handicap (not being able to translate from languages other than English on Meta) as a whole for years now, which does run counter to our ethos of being multilingual and encouraging contributions in all languages. If Kunal succeeds, that would be great, but if he doesn't or it takes too long to integrate his work, I would recommend prioritising this issue somewhat higher and giving it the necessary resources at the WMF.
Best regards, Bence
On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 4:52 PM, Niklas Laxström <niklas.laxstrom@gmail.com mailto:niklas.laxstrom@gmail.com> wrote:
Translate extension has supported for a long time having any language as the source language. There just has not been an interface in MediaWiki to set the source language of a page. The good news is that Kunal Grover, a GSoC student has created Special:PageLanguage to do just that. [1] I expect it will be available quite soon. In the future, please use a subject line which does not sound like an accusation. -Niklas [1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Kunalgrover05/Progress_Report _______________________________________________ Translators-l mailing list Translators-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Translators-l@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/translators-l
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