Hi,
Bonjour,
Ce mail est destin� � discuter l'aspect cotisation des membres, en particulier son rapport avec la fondation. Il sera envoy� � l'association allemande, la future association fran�aise et Tomos (comme repr�sentant japonais... les projets en langue japonaise �tant les seuls � avoir pour l'instant exprim� un souhait de cr�ation d'association locale).
Les allemands pr�voient vendredi prochain � 20h UTC+2 une r�union irc pour discuter de consid�rations associatives. Si vous parlez allemand, je vous sugg�re d'y participer, car l'exp�rience d'une association peut aider une autre....J'essayerais d'y participer, sans garantie.
This mail is meant to discuss membership dues, and in particular the relation ship between the foundation and local chapters. I apology for writing it in english. I will try to make very simple sentences, so that it can be easily translated by google. This mail will be send to the mailing lists of the german association, to the future french association, and to Tomos (Tomos has expressed interest over local chapter creation issues).
German people have planned an irc discussion on friday at 20 UTC+2, to discuss local chapter issues. I will try to be there, but cannot garantie it.
J'ai termin� il y a quelques jours la proposition pour les cotisations des membres. Cette proposition est visible � http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Membership_fees Je la r�sume en quelques mots.
Si on met de c�t� un certain nombre de positions honorifiques, il n'existe en fait que 3 situations r�ellement
* si une soci�t� fait un don substantiel � la foundation, elle sera dite "membre". Le don substentiel pourra �tre un montant entre 500 et 1000 dollars. Cependant, une soci�t�/organisation ne peut pas voter et ne peut pas avoir un role direct au conseil (ie, microsoft ne peut pas �tre nomm� vice-pr�sident...)
* un membre volontaire est toute personne participant � un projet Wikimedia, et se d�clarant d'accord pour faire partie de la foundation. En pratique : ce que nous allons faire est dans la page de pr�f�rence, ajouter une page contenant "description de ce qu'est la foundation, description des droits et devoirs des membres (type charte), et case � cocher valant approbation. Par d�faut, la case sera coch�e. Ceci sera bien sur gratuit, et donnera le droit de vote pour le repr�sentant des "volontaires" (Angela). Par rapport � aujourd hui, cela ne change rien, si ce n'est que l'on donne le choix aux �diteurs de faire, ou de ne pas faire partie de la foundation (actuellement, par d�faut, nous consid�rons que tout le monde l'est).
* un membre actif est toute personne pr�te � se d�clarer membre et � payer une cotisation annuelle. Cette personne peut �tre un �diteur ou non (Il n'y a pas d'obligation � avoir un compte). La cotisation sera de 60 dollars (le chiffre sera arrondi pour faire une somme enti�re en euros). Ce montant donne droit � voter, et � quelques avantages. Parmi ces avantages, la personne pourra pr�ciser comment elle souhaite que 50% de la somme soit utilis�s de pr�f�rence (par exemple, elle peut choisir d'attribuer ces 30 dollars � l'achat de mat�riel, ou ces 30 dollars � l'achat de mat�riel ou production de wikireaders). La cotisation pourra �tre mensuelle.
Pour les membres actifs, il existera un tarif r�duit, pour les �diteurs � revenus les plus faibles. Le montant de la cotisation sera de 6 dollars. Pour pouvoir rejoindre la foundation, et payer 6 dollars, le membre devra obligatoirement �tre un �diteur, avoir un certain temps de pr�sence parmi nous, et un certain nombre d'�dit. Evidemment, nous esp�rons que la majorit� des membres payants se tourneront vers les 60 dollars (ou qu'ils choisiront de payer 6 dollars et ajouterons une petite donation suppl�mentaire). Le montant de 6 dollars est tr�s faible en terme de revenus pour la foundation, mais est pr�vu pour ne pas exclure les bonnes volont�s.
I finished the proposition on membership dues. This proposition may be seen at http://meta.wikimedia/org/wiki/Membership_fees In a few words...
If we put aside a certain number of honorary positions, there are only three cases
* if a corporation offer significants, it will be said "member". This amount will be between 500 to 1000 dollars. However, a corporation can not vote, and can not hold a role on the board (ie, microsoft can't be vicechair)
* a voluntary member is any person participating to a wikimedia project, and agreeing to be part of the foundation. Practically : we will add in preferences, a page which will contain "description of what the foundation is, rights and duties of a member (a sort of charter) and a checking box to agree. By default, the checking box will be on. This will of course be free and will give the right to vote for the voluntary representant (Angela) and feeling of belonging. Compared to today, nothing will be changed really, but for giving the right to editors to be member or not to be member (today, by default, we consider everyone is).
* an active member is anyone willing to be a member, and to pay an annual fee. This person may be an editor or not (having an account is not mandatory). Dues will be 60 dollars (will be made an entire number in euros). This amount give right to vote for the active representant (Anthere) and a few advantages. Among advantages, the person will be able to say what she would like the foundation to do with 50% of the money preferably. For example, that 30 dollars be used on hardware. Of 30 dollars on hardware and wikireaders. Dues may be paid monthly.
For active members, there will be a reduced fee, for those editors with very low income or from poor countries. That fee will be 6 dollars. Reduced fee will be only for editors, with a certain time of contribution, and a certain number of edits. We naturally hope that most members will go for the 60 dollars or will choose to pay 6 dollars and will add a donation on top. The 6 dollars amount will very likely be very low in terms of income for the foundation, but is meant not to discourage good will.
Les associations locales
Nous proposons que les pages permettant de rejoindre une association locale soient h�berg�es sur le site de la foundation. Selon la situation (l�gislation locale), le futur membre pourra remplir un formulaire en ligne, ou le t�l�charger et le remplir avant de le renvoyer par courrier postal au secr�tariat de l'association locale. Le syst�me de paiement en ligne pourra �tre utilis�.
Tout membre payant une association locale sera consid�r� un membre actif de la foundation, � condition qu'il y ait un accord entre l'association et la foundation (pour �viter les associations "sauvages"). C'est � dire... d'une fa�on ou d'une autre... r�trocession d'une partie des cotisations depuis l'association locale vers la foundation.
Je souhaiterais discuter de la faisabilit� d'un syst�me de f�d�ration d'associations, qui permettrait � une association locale de devenir membre de la foundation... en autorisant ainsi le versement d'une cotisation. Il s'agirait donc d'un nouveau type de membre, qui devrait probablement impliquer un nouveau type de repr�sentation. Le montant de la cotisation vers�e par l'association locale � la foundation serait proportionnelle au nombre de cotisants de l'association locale, et serait rediscut�e annuellement, et �tabli en fonction de plusieurs crit�res tels que * niveau de vie g�n�ral pour le pays concern� (ie, le PNB) * le montant de la cotisation de l'association locale (ie, un montant diff�rent est revers� dans le cas d'une cotisation locale de 10 euros ou de 100 euros) * l'anciennet� et la taille de l'association locale (ie, une association juste naissante avec 15 membres... a peut �tre besoin de pratiquement tous ces revenus pour �tre viable)
Sauf exceptions, il paraitrait logique qu'aucun reversement soit inf�rieur � 6 dollars. L'avantage d'une f�d�ration d'association est double * il �tablit de fa�on plus clair un lien entre les diff�rentes associations * il donne un "objectif" (une raison d'�tre) � un mouvement d'argent d'un pays � un autre. Il ne s'agit pas de blanchiment d'argent, mais de cotisations.
Enfin, nous pourrions dire que dans une situation similaire (dur�e de l'assoc, nombre de membres) pour des pays � niveau de vie similaire, devrait r�sulter en une cotisation similaire. Pour �tre claire, si l'assoc fran�aise d�cidait de mettre la cotis � 2 euros, alors que l'allemande �tait � 100 euros, cela r�sulterait probablement en un tr�s large �cart en terme de pouvoir de vote (car les francophones auraient un tr�s grand nombre de membres, alors que les allemands en auraient tr�s peu). Cela r�sulterait peut �tre en des revenus similaires pour la foundation, mais dans une situation politique.... assez n�faste. Je prend bien sur une situation totalement extr�me, qui a peu de chance de se produire puisque de et fr ont choisi des montants assez similaires...mais vous pouvez transposer l'id�e. Essentiellement, il est assez d�licat de doser pour avoir * d un cote, une prise en compte du niveau de vie de chaque pays * de l autre, de ne pas aboutir a des troubles civils.
I hope you can translate all this to those not speaking english well. I would like your opinion/feedback on this. Legal ones included :-) I would like to insist that * our project thriving on fees (and donations) is probably the best and least controversial way to finance ourselves (compared to grants) * I wish that we go on thinking global, even if local is obviously important as well and should be nurtured * It is always tough to discuss money issues, and I really do not want to upset anyone here. I am just trying to find the most community agreeable and legally feasible option.
J'aimerais vos commentaires � ce sujet (commentaires l�gaux compris :-)) Je voudrais insister sur le fait * que notre projet est plus � meme de vivre hors controverse de cotisation (et de dons) (plutot que de subventions, qui parfois exigent un retour...) * j esp�re que nous continuerons � penser global, meme si local est aussi important, et doit �tre cultiv� * il est toujours difficile de discuter p�pettes, et je ne veux pas facher qui que ce soit ici. J'essaye juste de trouver la solution la plus acceptable pour la communaut�, et l�galement viable.
Local chapters
We proposed that membership pages be hosted on the wikimedia foundation website. Depending on local laws, the future members will either fill a form online, or download it and send it by mail to the secretary. On line payment could be used.
Any paying member of a local association will be listed as an active member of the foundation, provided there is an agreement between local chapter and foundation (to avoid "wild" associations). Ie, one way or another, movement of part of the fees from the local association to the foundation.
I would like to discuss the feasability of a federation system, which would allow a local chapter to become a member of the foundation....thus allowing the paiement of a fee. It would be a new type of membership, which would probably imply a new type of representation. The amount of the fee to be paid by the local chapter would be proportional to the number of members in the local chapter, and could be annually discussed, depending on criteria such as * level of life (PNB) * fee amount in the local chapter (ie, a different amount would be paid, if the local fee is 10 euros or 100 euros) * age and size of local chapter (ie, a just starting association of 15 members may need most of its revenues to be viable)
Aside exception, it appears logical that no fee be below 6 dollars per local person.
The advantage of an federation of association is double * it establishes better relationship between the different associations * it gives a reason for a money mouvement from one country to another. It is not "embezzlment" but fees.
Also, we might say that similar situation (duration, number of members), for similar life-level countries should result in similar fee to the foundation. To be blunt, if for example, the french chapter was deciding to set a fee at 2 euros while the german one was setting a fee at 100 euros, this might result in huge discrepancies in terms of voting power (since it is likely french people would have many many many voting members, while german would have very few). This would lead perhaps to similar revenues for the foundation, but to a very unbalanced political situation. I take an extrem case, which is not likely to occur since french and german fees are rather similar (which is quite logical :-)), essentially to point out at how delicate it might to be * to have on one hand being fair in fee amount for different level of life,* * and on the other hand, not to have all this results in nationalistic troubles :-)
I hope you can translate all this to those not speaking english well. I would like your opinion/feedback on this. Legal ones included :-) I would like to insist that * our project thriving on fees (and donations) is probably the best and least controversial way to finance ourselves (compared to grants) * I wish that we go on thinking global, even if local is obviously important as well and should be nurtured * It is always tough to discuss money issues, and I really do not want to upset anyone here. I am just trying to find the most community agreeable and legally feasible option.
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Bonjour, bonsoir,
Amha, cette proposition me semble en l'état parfaite, l'aspect démocratique est conservé (représentativité, volontariat, etc).
Imho, this proposition is perfect in this version, democracy is respected, good karma.
G.
Anthere wrote:
J'ai terminé il y a quelques jours la proposition pour les cotisations des membres. Cette proposition est visible à http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Membership_fees
Hi,
I did not receive any feedback from the german chapter with regards to my proposal of federation of associations. I know not really if that means no one cares, or if that means everyone agrees with the idea, or if that means you all totally disagree with the proposal, or if that means that none of you understood what I wrote at all :-)
As a reminder, I proposed that a local chapter become itself a paying member of the foundation (a sort of corporate member). I know of one set of associations which function along this idea, and that seemed pretty cool to me.
I see several benefits to this solution. - First it will officially let us all agree to follow a common charter. - Second, it might facilitate funds transfert, as there is a reason for it (it is a membership fee). - Third, it may clearly identify a local wikimedia chapter from other associations which might have different goals than the general goals proposed by Wikimedia. Tomos for example, suggested that some associations might have as a goal to focus in distribution of content along a certain pov.
Naturally, I suppose we have to think of a way to have local chapter membership be represented on the board as well.
I know there is no hurry about all this, but ... it might be worth to explore paths and see what is best for all.
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Am Di, den 03.08.2004 schrieb Anthere um 11:54:
I did not receive any feedback from the german chapter with regards to my proposal of federation of associations... ... I know there is no hurry about all this, but ... it might be worth to explore paths and see what is best for all.
Hi Anthere,
We have discussed this with Angela a bit in the IRC-Chat with the Verein.
Btw, we had 50 people attending the "Vereins-Chat on IRC", it was (IMHO) a big success. I hope, you have time next time (in one month), so there you can press the issue further!
To see, what we discussed on the fees, attached a part of the log
See you, Fantasy :-)
PS: The full log is on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Vereins-Chat/Log
Extract:
[22:11:35] [Angela] we've been trying to think how we should be co-operating with the Verein, since we want to introduce membership fees [22:11:56] [bagnarf] so http://wikimediafoundation.org/ is a "product" of the german verein? [22:11:59] [Angela] the French are setting up an association, but it isn't ready yet. They have a sterring committee to plan starting it [22:12:02] [elian_] bagnarf: no [22:12:15] [bagnarf] ok. [22:12:24] [devilygirly] you can give money to the german verein... can't you give money to the mediawiki too ?? ( was heißt spenden???) [22:12:32] [DaBPunkt] The problem is that the german verein can't pay a part of the fee to the foundation. [22:12:34] [elian_] devilygirly: donations [22:12:47] [DaBPunkt] so easily [22:12:49] [Angela] there's a page at [22:12:50] [Angela] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WMF_and_local_chapters/Proposal_on_budgeting_... about how the members of the Verein should be paying fees to the Foundation if they are already paying fees to the local chapter [22:13:26] [devilygirly] <Angela> or do you mean what happens with the donations? <--- yes! [22:13:41] [Angela] devilygirly: see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/What_we_use_the_money_for [22:13:49] ??? Quit: [algol] [Philipend@dialin-145-254-240-078.arcor-ip.net] [Client Quit] [22:13:51] [devilygirly] thanx [22:13:53] ??? Quit: [presroi] [sesqui@pD9EA2C22.dip.t-dialin.net] [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] [22:14:10] [bagnarf] angela: but there is some contact to wiki-admins in other countrys, or is there no big response (i mean is everybody doing this on his own)? [22:14:18] [Angela] does anyone have any thoughts on whether users should pay to the Wikimedia Foundation for membership if they are already members of the Verein? [22:14:23] [DErbaum] donate heiß spenden [22:14:45] [Angela] bagnarf: the wikis themselves co-ordinate on Meta and on the mailing lists. There is quite a lot of sharing of ideas [22:14:53] [akl] Angela: paying one fee ist enough [22:14:59] [elian_] Angela: I don't think these three types match the german verein very well [22:15:02] [DaBPunkt] akl: Ack [22:15:03] [stw] Angela: probably a part of the donations to the local chapter could be given to the wm foundation [22:15:10] ??? Part: [Andreas_] [~chatzilla@185.19.77.83.cust.bluewin.ch] [22:15:19] [Sicherlich] ACK@ stw [22:15:28] [DaBPunkt] stw: It's not so easy. [22:15:34] [Angela] is that possible though according to your bylaws? [22:15:41] [elian_] and the proposal is too complicated [22:15:43] [Sicherlich] @ angela it is possible [22:15:47] [AlexTM] Well, we wanted to give money to the foundation anyway, didn't we? [22:16:09] [Fantasy] but we have to "pay for services" (if i understand it right...) [22:16:10] [akl] AlexTM: we want to support all international projects [22:16:23] [Necrophorus] We will give Money to the foundatin if we have money to give [22:16:50] [elian_] the point is: the german verein at the moment can be neither of these three types [22:16:56] [devilygirly] yes... i think if the german verein won't have own servers they could pay a bit the the wikimedia... because the have the costs for the servers [22:16:59] [AlexTM] Well, yes, but all international projects include the foundation, I think [22:17:02] [DaBPunkt] Necrophorus: When I have undersatnd right, we can't give mone. Only things, or? [22:17:04] [Angela] perhaps a different way around it would be for people to pay Wikimedia, and then for you to give them a discount on their Verein fees? [22:17:09] [akl] AlexTM: yes [22:17:33] [elian_] DaBPunkt: we can give money [22:17:41] [elian_] but for specific purposes [22:17:53] [bagnarf] is it necesary (?syntax) to organize is centrally? (all over the foundation?) [22:17:58] [DaBPunkt] Ok. That I've mean. (Sorry for my bad englsich) [22:18:02] [akl] Angela: please check any international non-profit organization - they all have a structure where you only have to join the local chapter [22:18:05] [Sicherlich] but this specific purposes are easy to find; server is one think [22:18:19] [Sicherlich] thing ;) [22:18:31] [elian_] currently we have membership fees of 24 euros [22:18:44] ??? Quit: [Head] [~Head___@Ga601.g.pppool.de] [Remote closed the connection] [22:18:49] [elian_] so it's impossible to give 60$ to the foundation [22:18:52] [Angela] akl: I think the worry is that some countries might set their fees very low in order to get more members and have a larger effect on the Board elections [22:19:09] ??? Quit: [Leonach] [avr@p54808001.dip.t-dialin.net] ["using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.9"] [22:19:15] [Angela] so there needs to be a way of making sure the chapters do things fairly really [22:19:29] ??? Join: [achtvoracht] [achtvorach@dialin-145-254-199-124.arcor-ip.net] [22:19:33] [akl] Angela: this could be avoided (they loose their status as a chapter if they try to cheat) [22:19:34] [stw] Angela: yes, but you have to consider the financial standards of different countries [22:19:53] [Sicherlich] @ angela; but charging the same fee in alle countries is a bit challenging; i mean gery is rich but look eg Poland ... [22:19:56] [akl] Angela: assume good faith ;-) [22:20:07] [Angela] :) [22:20:13] ??? Part: [bagnarf] [~knoppix@dialin-145-254-249-228.arcor-ip.net] [22:20:26] [devilygirly] i think if all countrys spend the same percent of money it would be fairly... [22:20:34] [Angela] Sicherlich: that's why were considerng setting the minimum at $6 and not expecting $60 from everyone [22:21:20] [akl] $60 seems very high [22:21:20] [devilygirly] because if the polish verein have only 10? and spends 10% it's the same then the german Verein pends 10% of 100? [22:21:23] [Sicherlich] angela: okay question; what about connecting it with the GDP ? .. just an idea to make it more difficult ;) [22:21:31] [elian_] my suggestion is: don#t make things too complicated [22:21:55] [elian_] having branches, officials and affiliates will create terrible chaos [22:22:02] [Angela] we don't want too much paperwork with people trying to prove which country they are from or whether they are students to get a cheaper rate [22:22:14] [Cirdan] elian_: I agree [22:22:15] [Sicherlich] @ devilgidl: problem; 10 of the income or 10% of the profit? ... [22:22:50] [AlexTM] Maybe the vote problem could be solved another way: By edits per person relative to the country's size or something? [22:23:07] [Angela] I think Jimbo is worried that in future a country might set up a local chapter just with the intention of changing the election results [22:23:07] [stw] AlexTM: please no! this is way to complicated [22:23:13] [elian_] the other thing: what is better: an association with cheap fees and 1000 members or an association with expensive fees and 10 members? the first one can give definitely more money to the foundation [22:23:34] [devilygirly] if it's all over the world the same it's not important... but it wouldn't be fair if one country must pay 10% of profit and another from the income [22:23:48] [AlexTM] What would be difficult about that? No more difficult than calculating appropriate fees [22:24:17] [AlexTM] But was just an idea [22:24:35] [Angela] it would be helpful if people could put their views on this at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Membership_fees as well [22:24:57] [Cirdan] I think we should keep it easy... There are no problems at the moment and when they appear, we'll talk about it again [22:24:59] [elian_] there are other solutions to the voting problem - for example establishing a national quota [22:25:02] ??? Join: [Dashel] [~Christian@pD9526D35.dip.t-dialin.net] [22:25:07] [Dashel] hi [22:25:12] [Cirdan] hi [22:25:15] ??? Quit: [kellerkind] [~chatzilla@hmbg-d9b8930b.pool.mediaWays.net] [22:25:44] ??? Join: [flatone] [HUBBS_flat@chello062178076034.26.11.vie.surfer.at] [22:25:53] [Cirdan] Dashel: Zur zeit reden wir hier englisch, weil Angela von der Wikimedia Foundation uns über die Lage dort berichtet und mit uns über internationale Themen redet [22:26:03] [Owltom] generally spoken it would be better for the whole projekt to keep the fees as low as possible, I agree to elian_ [22:26:14] [DaBPunkt] ack
Okay :-)
Well, we'll see at the next meeting :-)
There is no hurry.
ant
Fantasy a écrit:
Am Di, den 03.08.2004 schrieb Anthere um 11:54:
I did not receive any feedback from the german chapter with regards to my proposal of federation of associations... ... I know there is no hurry about all this, but ... it might be worth to explore paths and see what is best for all.
Hi Anthere,
We have discussed this with Angela a bit in the IRC-Chat with the Verein.
Btw, we had 50 people attending the "Vereins-Chat on IRC", it was (IMHO) a big success. I hope, you have time next time (in one month), so there you can press the issue further!
To see, what we discussed on the fees, attached a part of the log
See you, Fantasy :-)
PS: The full log is on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Vereins-Chat/Log
Extract:
[22:11:35] [Angela] we've been trying to think how we should be co-operating with the Verein, since we want to introduce membership fees [22:11:56] [bagnarf] so http://wikimediafoundation.org/ is a "product" of the german verein? [22:11:59] [Angela] the French are setting up an association, but it isn't ready yet. They have a sterring committee to plan starting it [22:12:02] [elian_] bagnarf: no [22:12:15] [bagnarf] ok. [22:12:24] [devilygirly] you can give money to the german verein... can't you give money to the mediawiki too ?? ( was heißt spenden???) [22:12:32] [DaBPunkt] The problem is that the german verein can't pay a part of the fee to the foundation. [22:12:34] [elian_] devilygirly: donations [22:12:47] [DaBPunkt] so easily [22:12:49] [Angela] there's a page at [22:12:50] [Angela] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WMF_and_local_chapters/Proposal_on_budgeting_... about how the members of the Verein should be paying fees to the Foundation if they are already paying fees to the local chapter [22:13:26] [devilygirly] <Angela> or do you mean what happens with the donations? <--- yes! [22:13:41] [Angela] devilygirly: see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/What_we_use_the_money_for [22:13:49] ??? Quit: [algol] [Philipend@dialin-145-254-240-078.arcor-ip.net] [Client Quit] [22:13:51] [devilygirly] thanx [22:13:53] ??? Quit: [presroi] [sesqui@pD9EA2C22.dip.t-dialin.net] [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] [22:14:10] [bagnarf] angela: but there is some contact to wiki-admins in other countrys, or is there no big response (i mean is everybody doing this on his own)? [22:14:18] [Angela] does anyone have any thoughts on whether users should pay to the Wikimedia Foundation for membership if they are already members of the Verein? [22:14:23] [DErbaum] donate heiß spenden [22:14:45] [Angela] bagnarf: the wikis themselves co-ordinate on Meta and on the mailing lists. There is quite a lot of sharing of ideas [22:14:53] [akl] Angela: paying one fee ist enough [22:14:59] [elian_] Angela: I don't think these three types match the german verein very well [22:15:02] [DaBPunkt] akl: Ack [22:15:03] [stw] Angela: probably a part of the donations to the local chapter could be given to the wm foundation [22:15:10] ??? Part: [Andreas_] [~chatzilla@185.19.77.83.cust.bluewin.ch] [22:15:19] [Sicherlich] ACK@ stw [22:15:28] [DaBPunkt] stw: It's not so easy. [22:15:34] [Angela] is that possible though according to your bylaws? [22:15:41] [elian_] and the proposal is too complicated [22:15:43] [Sicherlich] @ angela it is possible [22:15:47] [AlexTM] Well, we wanted to give money to the foundation anyway, didn't we? [22:16:09] [Fantasy] but we have to "pay for services" (if i understand it right...) [22:16:10] [akl] AlexTM: we want to support all international projects [22:16:23] [Necrophorus] We will give Money to the foundatin if we have money to give [22:16:50] [elian_] the point is: the german verein at the moment can be neither of these three types [22:16:56] [devilygirly] yes... i think if the german verein won't have own servers they could pay a bit the the wikimedia... because the have the costs for the servers [22:16:59] [AlexTM] Well, yes, but all international projects include the foundation, I think [22:17:02] [DaBPunkt] Necrophorus: When I have undersatnd right, we can't give mone. Only things, or? [22:17:04] [Angela] perhaps a different way around it would be for people to pay Wikimedia, and then for you to give them a discount on their Verein fees? [22:17:09] [akl] AlexTM: yes [22:17:33] [elian_] DaBPunkt: we can give money [22:17:41] [elian_] but for specific purposes [22:17:53] [bagnarf] is it necesary (?syntax) to organize is centrally? (all over the foundation?) [22:17:58] [DaBPunkt] Ok. That I've mean. (Sorry for my bad englsich) [22:18:02] [akl] Angela: please check any international non-profit organization - they all have a structure where you only have to join the local chapter [22:18:05] [Sicherlich] but this specific purposes are easy to find; server is one think [22:18:19] [Sicherlich] thing ;) [22:18:31] [elian_] currently we have membership fees of 24 euros [22:18:44] ??? Quit: [Head] [~Head___@Ga601.g.pppool.de] [Remote closed the connection] [22:18:49] [elian_] so it's impossible to give 60$ to the foundation [22:18:52] [Angela] akl: I think the worry is that some countries might set their fees very low in order to get more members and have a larger effect on the Board elections [22:19:09] ??? Quit: [Leonach] [avr@p54808001.dip.t-dialin.net] ["using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.9"] [22:19:15] [Angela] so there needs to be a way of making sure the chapters do things fairly really [22:19:29] ??? Join: [achtvoracht] [achtvorach@dialin-145-254-199-124.arcor-ip.net] [22:19:33] [akl] Angela: this could be avoided (they loose their status as a chapter if they try to cheat) [22:19:34] [stw] Angela: yes, but you have to consider the financial standards of different countries [22:19:53] [Sicherlich] @ angela; but charging the same fee in alle countries is a bit challenging; i mean gery is rich but look eg Poland ... [22:19:56] [akl] Angela: assume good faith ;-) [22:20:07] [Angela] :) [22:20:13] ??? Part: [bagnarf] [~knoppix@dialin-145-254-249-228.arcor-ip.net] [22:20:26] [devilygirly] i think if all countrys spend the same percent of money it would be fairly... [22:20:34] [Angela] Sicherlich: that's why were considerng setting the minimum at $6 and not expecting $60 from everyone [22:21:20] [akl] $60 seems very high [22:21:20] [devilygirly] because if the polish verein have only 10? and spends 10% it's the same then the german Verein pends 10% of 100? [22:21:23] [Sicherlich] angela: okay question; what about connecting it with the GDP ? .. just an idea to make it more difficult ;) [22:21:31] [elian_] my suggestion is: don#t make things too complicated [22:21:55] [elian_] having branches, officials and affiliates will create terrible chaos [22:22:02] [Angela] we don't want too much paperwork with people trying to prove which country they are from or whether they are students to get a cheaper rate [22:22:14] [Cirdan] elian_: I agree [22:22:15] [Sicherlich] @ devilgidl: problem; 10 of the income or 10% of the profit? ... [22:22:50] [AlexTM] Maybe the vote problem could be solved another way: By edits per person relative to the country's size or something? [22:23:07] [Angela] I think Jimbo is worried that in future a country might set up a local chapter just with the intention of changing the election results [22:23:07] [stw] AlexTM: please no! this is way to complicated [22:23:13] [elian_] the other thing: what is better: an association with cheap fees and 1000 members or an association with expensive fees and 10 members? the first one can give definitely more money to the foundation [22:23:34] [devilygirly] if it's all over the world the same it's not important... but it wouldn't be fair if one country must pay 10% of profit and another from the income [22:23:48] [AlexTM] What would be difficult about that? No more difficult than calculating appropriate fees [22:24:17] [AlexTM] But was just an idea [22:24:35] [Angela] it would be helpful if people could put their views on this at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Membership_fees as well [22:24:57] [Cirdan] I think we should keep it easy... There are no problems at the moment and when they appear, we'll talk about it again [22:24:59] [elian_] there are other solutions to the voting problem - for example establishing a national quota [22:25:02] ??? Join: [Dashel] [~Christian@pD9526D35.dip.t-dialin.net] [22:25:07] [Dashel] hi [22:25:12] [Cirdan] hi [22:25:15] ??? Quit: [kellerkind] [~chatzilla@hmbg-d9b8930b.pool.mediaWays.net] [22:25:44] ??? Join: [flatone] [HUBBS_flat@chello062178076034.26.11.vie.surfer.at] [22:25:53] [Cirdan] Dashel: Zur zeit reden wir hier englisch, weil Angela von der Wikimedia Foundation uns über die Lage dort berichtet und mit uns über internationale Themen redet [22:26:03] [Owltom] generally spoken it would be better for the whole projekt to keep the fees as low as possible, I agree to elian_ [22:26:14] [DaBPunkt] ack
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