Re: [VereinDE-l] Fees and local chapters

Am Di, den 03.08.2004 schrieb Anthere um 11:54: Hi Anthere, We have discussed this with Angela a bit in the IRC-Chat with the Verein. Btw, we had 50 people attending the "Vereins-Chat on IRC", it was (IMHO) a big success. I hope, you have time next time (in one month), so there you can press the issue further! To see, what we discussed on the fees, attached a part of the log See you, Fantasy :-) PS: The full log is on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Vereins-Chat/Log Extract: [22:11:35] [Angela] we've been trying to think how we should be co-operating with the Verein, since we want to introduce membership fees [22:11:56] [bagnarf] so http://wikimediafoundation.org/ is a "product" of the german verein? [22:11:59] [Angela] the French are setting up an association, but it isn't ready yet. They have a sterring committee to plan starting it [22:12:02] [elian_] bagnarf: no [22:12:15] [bagnarf] ok. [22:12:24] [devilygirly] you can give money to the german verein... can't you give money to the mediawiki too ?? ( was heißt spenden???) [22:12:32] [DaBPunkt] The problem is that the german verein can't pay a part of the fee to the foundation. [22:12:34] [elian_] devilygirly: donations [22:12:47] [DaBPunkt] so easily [22:12:49] [Angela] there's a page at [22:12:50] [Angela] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WMF_and_local_chapters/Proposal_on_budgeting… about how the members of the Verein should be paying fees to the Foundation if they are already paying fees to the local chapter [22:13:26] [devilygirly] <Angela> or do you mean what happens with the donations? <--- yes! [22:13:41] [Angela] devilygirly: see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/What_we_use_the_money_for [22:13:49] ??? Quit: [algol] [Philipend(a)dialin-145-254-240-078.arcor-ip.net] [Client Quit] [22:13:51] [devilygirly] thanx [22:13:53] ??? Quit: [presroi] [sesqui(a)pD9EA2C22.dip.t-dialin.net] [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] [22:14:10] [bagnarf] angela: but there is some contact to wiki-admins in other countrys, or is there no big response (i mean is everybody doing this on his own)? [22:14:18] [Angela] does anyone have any thoughts on whether users should pay to the Wikimedia Foundation for membership if they are already members of the Verein? [22:14:23] [DErbaum] donate heiß spenden [22:14:45] [Angela] bagnarf: the wikis themselves co-ordinate on Meta and on the mailing lists. There is quite a lot of sharing of ideas [22:14:53] [akl] Angela: paying one fee ist enough [22:14:59] [elian_] Angela: I don't think these three types match the german verein very well [22:15:02] [DaBPunkt] akl: Ack [22:15:03] [stw] Angela: probably a part of the donations to the local chapter could be given to the wm foundation [22:15:10] ??? Part: [Andreas_] [~chatzilla(a)185.19.77.83.cust.bluewin.ch] [22:15:19] [Sicherlich] ACK@ stw [22:15:28] [DaBPunkt] stw: It's not so easy. [22:15:34] [Angela] is that possible though according to your bylaws? [22:15:41] [elian_] and the proposal is too complicated [22:15:43] [Sicherlich] @ angela it is possible [22:15:47] [AlexTM] Well, we wanted to give money to the foundation anyway, didn't we? [22:16:09] [Fantasy] but we have to "pay for services" (if i understand it right...) [22:16:10] [akl] AlexTM: we want to support all international projects [22:16:23] [Necrophorus] We will give Money to the foundatin if we have money to give [22:16:50] [elian_] the point is: the german verein at the moment can be neither of these three types [22:16:56] [devilygirly] yes... i think if the german verein won't have own servers they could pay a bit the the wikimedia... because the have the costs for the servers [22:16:59] [AlexTM] Well, yes, but all international projects include the foundation, I think [22:17:02] [DaBPunkt] Necrophorus: When I have undersatnd right, we can't give mone. Only things, or? [22:17:04] [Angela] perhaps a different way around it would be for people to pay Wikimedia, and then for you to give them a discount on their Verein fees? [22:17:09] [akl] AlexTM: yes [22:17:33] [elian_] DaBPunkt: we can give money [22:17:41] [elian_] but for specific purposes [22:17:53] [bagnarf] is it necesary (?syntax) to organize is centrally? (all over the foundation?) [22:17:58] [DaBPunkt] Ok. That I've mean. (Sorry for my bad englsich) [22:18:02] [akl] Angela: please check any international non-profit organization - they all have a structure where you only have to join the local chapter [22:18:05] [Sicherlich] but this specific purposes are easy to find; server is one think [22:18:19] [Sicherlich] thing ;) [22:18:31] [elian_] currently we have membership fees of 24 euros [22:18:44] ??? Quit: [Head] [~Head___(a)Ga601.g.pppool.de] [Remote closed the connection] [22:18:49] [elian_] so it's impossible to give 60$ to the foundation [22:18:52] [Angela] akl: I think the worry is that some countries might set their fees very low in order to get more members and have a larger effect on the Board elections [22:19:09] ??? Quit: [Leonach] [avr(a)p54808001.dip.t-dialin.net] ["using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.9"] [22:19:15] [Angela] so there needs to be a way of making sure the chapters do things fairly really [22:19:29] ??? Join: [achtvoracht] [achtvorach(a)dialin-145-254-199-124.arcor-ip.net] [22:19:33] [akl] Angela: this could be avoided (they loose their status as a chapter if they try to cheat) [22:19:34] [stw] Angela: yes, but you have to consider the financial standards of different countries [22:19:53] [Sicherlich] @ angela; but charging the same fee in alle countries is a bit challenging; i mean gery is rich but look eg Poland ... [22:19:56] [akl] Angela: assume good faith ;-) [22:20:07] [Angela] :) [22:20:13] ??? Part: [bagnarf] [~knoppix(a)dialin-145-254-249-228.arcor-ip.net] [22:20:26] [devilygirly] i think if all countrys spend the same percent of money it would be fairly... [22:20:34] [Angela] Sicherlich: that's why were considerng setting the minimum at $6 and not expecting $60 from everyone [22:21:20] [akl] $60 seems very high [22:21:20] [devilygirly] because if the polish verein have only 10? and spends 10% it's the same then the german Verein pends 10% of 100? [22:21:23] [Sicherlich] angela: okay question; what about connecting it with the GDP ? .. just an idea to make it more difficult ;) [22:21:31] [elian_] my suggestion is: don#t make things too complicated [22:21:55] [elian_] having branches, officials and affiliates will create terrible chaos [22:22:02] [Angela] we don't want too much paperwork with people trying to prove which country they are from or whether they are students to get a cheaper rate [22:22:14] [Cirdan] elian_: I agree [22:22:15] [Sicherlich] @ devilgidl: problem; 10 of the income or 10% of the profit? ... [22:22:50] [AlexTM] Maybe the vote problem could be solved another way: By edits per person relative to the country's size or something? [22:23:07] [Angela] I think Jimbo is worried that in future a country might set up a local chapter just with the intention of changing the election results [22:23:07] [stw] AlexTM: please no! this is way to complicated [22:23:13] [elian_] the other thing: what is better: an association with cheap fees and 1000 members or an association with expensive fees and 10 members? the first one can give definitely more money to the foundation [22:23:34] [devilygirly] if it's all over the world the same it's not important... but it wouldn't be fair if one country must pay 10% of profit and another from the income [22:23:48] [AlexTM] What would be difficult about that? No more difficult than calculating appropriate fees [22:24:17] [AlexTM] But was just an idea [22:24:35] [Angela] it would be helpful if people could put their views on this at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Membership_fees as well [22:24:57] [Cirdan] I think we should keep it easy... There are no problems at the moment and when they appear, we'll talk about it again [22:24:59] [elian_] there are other solutions to the voting problem - for example establishing a national quota [22:25:02] ??? Join: [Dashel] [~Christian(a)pD9526D35.dip.t-dialin.net] [22:25:07] [Dashel] hi [22:25:12] [Cirdan] hi [22:25:15] ??? Quit: [kellerkind] [~chatzilla(a)hmbg-d9b8930b.pool.mediaWays.net] [22:25:44] ??? Join: [flatone] [HUBBS_flat(a)chello062178076034.26.11.vie.surfer.at] [22:25:53] [Cirdan] Dashel: Zur zeit reden wir hier englisch, weil Angela von der Wikimedia Foundation uns über die Lage dort berichtet und mit uns über internationale Themen redet [22:26:03] [Owltom] generally spoken it would be better for the whole projekt to keep the fees as low as possible, I agree to elian_ [22:26:14] [DaBPunkt] ack