Am Di, den 03.08.2004 schrieb Anthere um 11:54:
I did not receive any feedback from the german chapter
with regards to
my proposal of federation of associations...
I know there is no hurry about all this, but ... it might be worth to
explore paths and see what is best for all.
We have discussed this with Angela a bit in the IRC-Chat with the
Btw, we had 50 people attending the "Vereins-Chat on IRC", it was (IMHO)
a big success. I hope, you have time next time (in one month), so there
you can press the issue further!
To see, what we discussed on the fees, attached a part of the log
PS: The full log is on
[22:11:35] [Angela] we've been trying to think how we should be
co-operating with the Verein, since we want to introduce membership fees
[22:11:56] [bagnarf] so http://wikimediafoundation.org/
is a "product"
of the german verein?
[22:11:59] [Angela] the French are setting up an association, but it
isn't ready yet. They have a sterring committee to plan starting it
[22:12:02] [elian_] bagnarf: no
[22:12:15] [bagnarf] ok.
[22:12:24] [devilygirly] you can give money to the german verein...
can't you give money to the mediawiki too ?? ( was heißt spenden???)
[22:12:32] [DaBPunkt] The problem is that the german verein can't pay a
part of the fee to the foundation.
[22:12:34] [elian_] devilygirly: donations
[22:12:47] [DaBPunkt] so easily
[22:12:49] [Angela] there's a page at
about how the members of the Verein should be paying fees to the
Foundation if they are already paying fees to the local chapter
[22:13:26] [devilygirly] <Angela> or do you mean what happens with the
donations? <--- yes!
[22:13:41] [Angela] devilygirly: see
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[22:13:51] [devilygirly] thanx
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[22:14:10] [bagnarf] angela: but there is some contact to wiki-admins in
other countrys, or is there no big response (i mean is everybody doing
this on his own)?
[22:14:18] [Angela] does anyone have any thoughts on whether users
should pay to the Wikimedia Foundation for membership if they are
already members of the Verein?
[22:14:23] [DErbaum] donate heiß spenden
[22:14:45] [Angela] bagnarf: the wikis themselves co-ordinate on Meta
and on the mailing lists. There is quite a lot of sharing of ideas
[22:14:53] [akl] Angela: paying one fee ist enough
[22:14:59] [elian_] Angela: I don't think these three types match the
german verein very well
[22:15:02] [DaBPunkt] akl: Ack
[22:15:03] [stw] Angela: probably a part of the donations to the local
chapter could be given to the wm foundation
[22:15:10] ??? Part: [Andreas_]
[22:15:19] [Sicherlich] ACK@ stw
[22:15:28] [DaBPunkt] stw: It's not so easy.
[22:15:34] [Angela] is that possible though according to your bylaws?
[22:15:41] [elian_] and the proposal is too complicated
[22:15:43] [Sicherlich] @ angela it is possible
[22:15:47] [AlexTM] Well, we wanted to give money to the foundation
anyway, didn't we?
[22:16:09] [Fantasy] but we have to "pay for services" (if i understand
[22:16:10] [akl] AlexTM: we want to support all international projects
[22:16:23] [Necrophorus] We will give Money to the foundatin if we have
money to give
[22:16:50] [elian_] the point is: the german verein at the moment can be
neither of these three types
[22:16:56] [devilygirly] yes... i think if the german verein won't have
own servers they could pay a bit the the wikimedia... because the have
the costs for the servers
[22:16:59] [AlexTM] Well, yes, but all international projects include
the foundation, I think
[22:17:02] [DaBPunkt] Necrophorus: When I have undersatnd right, we
can't give mone. Only things, or?
[22:17:04] [Angela] perhaps a different way around it would be for
people to pay Wikimedia, and then for you to give them a discount on
their Verein fees?
[22:17:09] [akl] AlexTM: yes
[22:17:33] [elian_] DaBPunkt: we can give money
[22:17:41] [elian_] but for specific purposes
[22:17:53] [bagnarf] is it necesary (?syntax) to organize is centrally?
(all over the foundation?)
[22:17:58] [DaBPunkt] Ok. That I've mean. (Sorry for my bad englsich)
[22:18:02] [akl] Angela: please check any international non-profit
organization - they all have a structure where you only have to join the
[22:18:05] [Sicherlich] but this specific purposes are easy to find;
server is one think
[22:18:19] [Sicherlich] thing ;)
[22:18:31] [elian_] currently we have membership fees of 24 euros
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[22:18:49] [elian_] so it's impossible to give 60$ to the foundation
[22:18:52] [Angela] akl: I think the worry is that some countries might
set their fees very low in order to get more members and have a larger
effect on the Board elections
[22:19:09] ??? Quit: [Leonach] [avr(a)p54808001.dip.t-dialin.net] ["using
sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.9"]
[22:19:15] [Angela] so there needs to be a way of making sure the
chapters do things fairly really
[22:19:29] ??? Join: [achtvoracht]
[22:19:33] [akl] Angela: this could be avoided (they loose their status
as a chapter if they try to cheat)
[22:19:34] [stw] Angela: yes, but you have to consider the financial
standards of different countries
[22:19:53] [Sicherlich] @ angela; but charging the same fee in alle
countries is a bit challenging; i mean gery is rich but look eg Poland
[22:19:56] [akl] Angela: assume good faith ;-)
[22:20:07] [Angela] :)
[22:20:13] ??? Part: [bagnarf]
[22:20:26] [devilygirly] i think if all countrys spend the same percent
of money it would be fairly...
[22:20:34] [Angela] Sicherlich: that's why were considerng setting the
minimum at $6 and not expecting $60 from everyone
[22:21:20] [akl] $60 seems very high
[22:21:20] [devilygirly] because if the polish verein have only 10? and
spends 10% it's the same then the german Verein pends 10% of 100?
[22:21:23] [Sicherlich] angela: okay question; what about connecting it
with the GDP ? .. just an idea to make it more difficult ;)
[22:21:31] [elian_] my suggestion is: don#t make things too complicated
[22:21:55] [elian_] having branches, officials and affiliates will
create terrible chaos
[22:22:02] [Angela] we don't want too much paperwork with people trying
to prove which country they are from or whether they are students to get
a cheaper rate
[22:22:14] [Cirdan] elian_: I agree
[22:22:15] [Sicherlich] @ devilgidl: problem; 10 of the income or 10% of
the profit? ...
[22:22:50] [AlexTM] Maybe the vote problem could be solved another way:
By edits per person relative to the country's size or something?
[22:23:07] [Angela] I think Jimbo is worried that in future a country
might set up a local chapter just with the intention of changing the
[22:23:07] [stw] AlexTM: please no! this is way to complicated
[22:23:13] [elian_] the other thing: what is better: an association with
cheap fees and 1000 members or an association with expensive fees and 10
members? the first one can give definitely more money to the foundation
[22:23:34] [devilygirly] if it's all over the world the same it's not
important... but it wouldn't be fair if one country must pay 10% of
profit and another from the income
[22:23:48] [AlexTM] What would be difficult about that? No more
difficult than calculating appropriate fees
[22:24:17] [AlexTM] But was just an idea
[22:24:35] [Angela] it would be helpful if people could put their views
on this at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Membership_fees
[22:24:57] [Cirdan] I think we should keep it easy... There are no
problems at the moment and when they appear, we'll talk about it again
[22:24:59] [elian_] there are other solutions to the voting problem -
for example establishing a national quota
[22:25:02] ??? Join: [Dashel] [~Christian(a)pD9526D35.dip.t-dialin.net]
[22:25:07] [Dashel] hi
[22:25:12] [Cirdan] hi
[22:25:15] ??? Quit: [kellerkind]
[22:25:44] ??? Join: [flatone]
[22:25:53] [Cirdan] Dashel: Zur zeit reden wir hier englisch, weil
Angela von der Wikimedia Foundation uns über die Lage dort berichtet und
mit uns über internationale Themen redet
[22:26:03] [Owltom] generally spoken it would be better for the whole
projekt to keep the fees as low as possible, I agree to elian_
[22:26:14] [DaBPunkt] ack