Guten Tag zusammen,
Ich bin ein contributor der englischen Wikipedia.
Ich habe kuerzlich eine Reihe von zusammenhaengenden Themen auf der
wikiEN-l mailing list zur Sprache gebracht.
Man hat mir empfohlen, mich einerseits an die foundation-l zu wenden
und andererseits die Angelegenheit an den deutschen Verein (das waeret
ihr ;-) mitzuteilen.
Da ich ehrlich gesagt aber nicht den Nerv habe, jetzt den ganzen Kram
auch noch mal auf Deutsch abzufassen, hoffe ich jetzt mal ganz einfach,
dass die meisten hier ausreichend der englischen Sprache maechtig sind
:) und leite die betreffende email einfach weiter (s.u.).
Ich wuerde mich freuen, wenn Ihr den betreffenden Kram mal durchlesen
koenntet, so dass wir hier weitere Schritte besprechen koennen.
Im Falle von nachhaltigen Sprachschwierigkeiten bitte auf der Liste
melden -- wir koennen dann gegenseitig sicher aushelfen und ich kann im
Einzelfall auch die betreffenden Stellen erklaeren.
Vielleicht haben auch andere Untenstehendes bereits berichtet (s.u.).
-- Falls es schon Antworten oder Diskussionsbeitraege gab, so wuerde
ich mich freuen, wenn man diese noch mal an mich weiterleiten koennte.
-- Ich habe erst jetzt gerade diese mailing list abonniert.
Thanks and regards,
Jens Ropers
There are two types of IT techs: The ones who watch soap operas and the
ones who watch progress bars.
http://www.ropersonline.com/elmo/#108681741955837683
Begin forwarded message:
> From: Jens Ropers <ropers(a)ropersonline.com>
> Date: 11 August 2004 19:05:11 GMT+02:00
> To: foundation-l(a)wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: domain donation, cybersquatter, our copyright
>
> Hi, this is my first mail to this list, to which I've just subscribed.
> I understand the below discussion has been moved here?
(from wikiEN-l to foundation-l)
> The discussion in question concerns various issues I described in
> detail on a password-protected area of my website (as there were
> problems w/ list members receiving the relevant HTML file containing
> my writings). I would invite list members here to also read this page.
> From a previous email I sent:
>
>> I have thus now posted my "little paper" on my website, at:
>> http://www.ropersonline.com/Area_51/wikipaedia.html
>
> capitalization matters on the URL, btw.
>
>> Note that Area 51 is restricted access only. Please log on as follows:
>> user name: guest
>> password: 1ns4nI+y
>> The clear text password is of course only a modest precaution -- I
>> just don't want to give the rascal I'm exposing there easy
>> opportunity to sue me.
>> Please feel free to pass these account details on to other *trusted*
>> Wikipedians.
>>
>> _Please, PLEASE DO have a look at it and read it!_
>>
>> Please, let's start tackling these issues! If there is a better place
>> to take this, please tell me so! -- I am still fairly new and chances
>> are I'm just not aware of it.
>> I really do want these issues addressed!
>
> In case people have commented on this issue already, I would be very
> grateful to be forwarded copies of any relevant emails. I would not
> have received them previously as I wasn't a list member till now.
>
> In response to my email, Angela_ responded as follows:
>
> On 11 Aug 2004, at 16:29, wikien-l-request(a)Wikipedia.org wrote:
>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 22:59:25 +0100
>> From: Angela_ <beesley(a)gmail.com>
>> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: domain donation, cybersquatter, our copyright
>> To: foundation-l(a)wikimedia.org
>> Cc: wikien-l(a)wikipedia.org
>> Message-ID: <8b722b800408101459821267b(a)mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>>
>> (moving thread from wikien-l to foundation-l. Please reply there)
>>
>> Jens Ropers wrote:
>>
>>> 1. I am seeking to donate the wikipaedia.net domain name (which I
>>> have
>>> registered) to the Wikipedia Foundation.
>>
>> Thank you for offering us this. My only concern is that confusion
>> could arise if we own wikipaedia.net but not the other wikipaedia
>> domains. If we don't own any of them, it's more obvious that
>> wikipaedia is nothing to do with us.
>
> True, but that confusion is already there. People /are/ accessing
> wikipAEdia domains. I did. Also, as I observed in my wikipaedia.html
> paper above, Dr. Schlabeck is actively furthering that confusion by
> impersonating us and linking to us in a confusing (non-working) way.
> (See Gripe #1, #3 and #4.)
> We're not helping ourselves by avoiding the battle and "yielding
> ground". We should claim and hold what ground is rightfully ours and
> systematically pursue our claims on the domains Dr. Schlabeck
> currently controls. (Sorry about the militaristic lingo. Couldn't
> think of a clearer way to put it.)
> I would also suggest that things get implemented as follows as far as
> DNS servers:
> 1. Make wikipaedia.net /redirect/ to wikipedia.org, so that users
> hitting wikipaedia.net will find themselves looking at the Wikipedia,
> /with/ a wikipedia.org URL in the address bar. (And let's /not/ put in
> one of those silly 5-second-delay-to-redirect, "please change your
> bookmarks" pages. Those are pretty friggin useless anyway.
> 2. Configure the DNS boxen in such a fashion that, say, a URL of
> http://en.wikipaedia.net/wiki/Charlie_Muffin will automatically
> redirect to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Muffin. This may be
> slightly controversial in that there's the downside that such a
> "forgiving" behaviour might encourage people to keep using the "wrong"
> URL. On the other hand, as long as it fully redirects to the correct
> .org address, there shouldn't be much to worry about as people will
> realize very quickly that our "main" URL is wikipedia.org. And it's
> not as if we had to fear loosing wikipaedia.net anytime soon.
>
> I've also email Jimmy on this -- no reply yet -- because I wanted to
> do the actual turning over of the domain directly to him, to avoid any
> possible issues, say, with someone untrustworthy reading this list,
> grabbing the domain and sodding off with it.
>
> In the meantime, the suggested DNS changes could already be
> implemented! :)
> I don't have a DNS server and I don't have the option to directly
> enter a redirection URL with my domain name registrar (i.e. they're
> not offering DNS services for this domain-name-only account). What I
> can enter are DNS server addresses. So if the appropriate Wikipedia
> admins (Jimmy?) were to include the appropriate records with their
> name servers (possibly zwinger.wikipedia.org and gunther.bomis.com?),
> I could then enter these server addresses into the wikipaedia.net
> domain control panel and things should be working, even before the
> actual domain ownership gets formally transferred to the WP
> Foundation.
>
>>> 2. A particularly bad serial cybersquatter is controlling
>>> wikipaedia.org, wikipaedia.com and wikipaedia.de. We really should
>>> get
>>> these domains off him (and would be able to do so).
>>
>> I asked in the German IRC channel about this. Maybe I'm assuming too
>> much good faith, but I think we ought to approach that site owner in a
>> friendly way at first before we get too heavy handed. Sansculotte is
>> going to take this to the VereinDE-l mailing list and discuss it
>> there. Hopefully someone who speaks German can contact the site about
>> this. We might well get no reply, but at least we can say we tried
>> before taking this any further. It is worth noting that Akl was
>> successful in getting the wikipedia.ch and wikipedia.at domains back,
>> so perhaps this can be successful too.
>>
>> Angela.
>
> True, it can't hurt to ask -- and it's The Right Thing™.
> However, I still have my doubts, because Dr. Schlabeck is not only
> cybersquatting on us but also impersonating us and infringing our
> copyrights (see Gripe #1, #2, #3 and #4). To top things off, he seems
> to be a truly "remarkable" serial cybersqatter (see Gripe #5). I think
> what'll happen is this:
> 1. He'll claim ignorance on the content copyright infringement and
> impersonation issues ("I thought it was free!").
> 2. He'll demand cash, and not only cash but extortionate sums for the
> wikipaedia domains he currently controls.
> But -- true enough -- it can't hurt to ask. It actually strengthens
> our case.
>
> As regards the VereinDE-l mailing list, well, actually, I happen to
> speak German. So I'll join the VereinDE-l ML (any minute now...) and
> see what can be done there. (I was actually hoping others to take over
> the baton from me with these things, because I've already spent quite
> a bit of time on this. ;-) Anyhoo, the wikipaedia.de and content
> infringement issues are probably better dealt with by the German
> Verein (because the domain and content in question are German).
>
> BUT:
> I would still suggest tackling the wikipaedia.com and wikipaedia.org
> issues from our end, because these issues concern us more than our
> German Verein. Plus, we don't even have to sue: It is /perfectly
> sufficient/ to pursue our claims on these gTLD domains under the ICANN
> UDRP! (And, IANAL, but the way I read the UDRP we're pretty much
> /guaranteed/ to win there. The only semi-legitimate "claim" Dr.
> Schlabeck could put to the domain is to say the -paedia bit stood for
> Paediater (German for pediatrician) --- but he's a psychiatrist, not a
> pediatrician!) Anyways, if needed I could translate agreed-upon
> Schlabeck-addressed correspondence to German (if it's not too long.)
> Besides, IMHO we needn't necessarily worry about a language barrier
> from our end. -- It is quite reasonable to expect holders of gTLDs to
> respond to related correspondence in English.
>
> Thanks and regards,
> Jens Ropers
>
> There are two types of IT techs: The ones who watch soap operas and
> the ones who watch progress bars.
> http://www.ropersonline.com/elmo/#108681741955837683
>
I've now also notified DENIC.de about this issue. I did NOT /complain/
to DENIC about Dr. Schlabeck -- I sent them an expressly
"information-only" email, purely to notify them of what's going on (as
I think that hundreds of, or a thousand domain names are somewhat
unusual). I did not lobby them to take any action whatsoever. See
below.
Thanks and regards,
Jens Ropers
There are two types of IT techs: The ones who watch soap operas and the
ones who watch progress bars.
http://www.ropersonline.com/elmo/#108681741955837683
On 11 Aug 2004, at 13:47, Jens Ropers wrote:
> Dear Sir/Madam of Denic,
>
> I have recently conducted an extensive investigation into the
> activities of a person I personally consider a cybersquatter.
> My investigation was triggered by perceived (by myself and others)
> infringement of Wikipedia (http://wikipedia.org) copyrights and
> interests.
>
> During my investigation, I found out about an extraordinarily large
> extent of questionable activity within the .de ccTLD.
>
> Because of the large extent of the related issues, I am now emailing
> you about them. At this time, I am NOT making any claims as regards
> the legality of the activities in question. I am NOT asking you to
> take action of whatever sort and I am aware that it may not be within
> your brief to do anything, even in cases like this. I am merely
> emailing you on an information-only bases, simply because I feel it
> might be helpful for you to know of these issues.
>
> On this basis, I would now like to invite and encourage you to read
> the results of my investigation at:
>
> http://www.ropersonline.com/Area_51/wikipaedia.html
> The only issue I expect to be of concern to you is the "Gripe #5"
> item, which I could imagine you to find of great interest.
> Note that Area 51 is restricted access only. Please log on as follows:
> user name: -----
> password: -----
> The clear text password is of course only a modest precaution -- I
> just don't want to publicly reveal my results at this time (since I
> don't know whether doing so would put me at risk to get sued).
>
> Please treat this information as Denic confidential and do not pass on
> the said login details.
>
> Thanks and regards,
> Jens Ropers
>
> There are two types of IT techs: The ones who watch soap operas and
> the ones who watch progress bars.
> http://www.ropersonline.com/elmo/#108681741955837683
Hi,
Bonjour,
Ce mail est destin� � discuter l'aspect cotisation des
membres, en particulier son rapport avec la fondation.
Il sera envoy� � l'association allemande, la future
association fran�aise et Tomos (comme repr�sentant
japonais... les projets en langue japonaise �tant les
seuls � avoir pour l'instant exprim� un souhait de
cr�ation d'association locale).
Les allemands pr�voient vendredi prochain � 20h UTC+2
une r�union irc pour discuter de consid�rations
associatives. Si vous parlez allemand, je vous sugg�re
d'y participer, car l'exp�rience d'une association
peut aider une autre....J'essayerais d'y participer,
sans garantie.
This mail is meant to discuss membership dues, and in
particular the relation ship between the foundation
and local chapters.
I apology for writing it in english. I will try to
make very simple sentences, so that it can be easily
translated by google.
This mail will be send to the mailing lists of the
german association, to the future french association,
and to Tomos (Tomos has expressed interest over local
chapter creation issues).
German people have planned an irc discussion on friday
at 20 UTC+2, to discuss local chapter issues. I will
try to be there, but cannot garantie it.
J'ai termin� il y a quelques jours la proposition pour
les cotisations des membres. Cette proposition est
visible �
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Membership_fees
Je la r�sume en quelques mots.
Si on met de c�t� un certain nombre de positions
honorifiques, il n'existe en fait que 3 situations
r�ellement
* si une soci�t� fait un don substantiel � la
foundation, elle sera dite "membre". Le don
substentiel pourra �tre un montant entre 500 et 1000
dollars. Cependant, une soci�t�/organisation ne peut
pas voter et ne peut pas avoir un role direct au
conseil (ie, microsoft ne peut pas �tre nomm�
vice-pr�sident...)
* un membre volontaire est toute personne participant
� un projet Wikimedia, et se d�clarant d'accord pour
faire partie de la foundation. En pratique : ce que
nous allons faire est dans la page de pr�f�rence,
ajouter une page contenant "description de ce qu'est
la foundation, description des droits et devoirs des
membres (type charte), et case � cocher valant
approbation. Par d�faut, la case sera coch�e. Ceci
sera bien sur gratuit, et donnera le droit de vote
pour le repr�sentant des "volontaires" (Angela). Par
rapport � aujourd hui, cela ne change rien, si ce
n'est que l'on donne le choix aux �diteurs de faire,
ou de ne pas faire partie de la foundation
(actuellement, par d�faut, nous consid�rons que tout
le monde l'est).
* un membre actif est toute personne pr�te � se
d�clarer membre et � payer une cotisation annuelle.
Cette personne peut �tre un �diteur ou non (Il n'y a
pas d'obligation � avoir un compte). La cotisation
sera de 60 dollars (le chiffre sera arrondi pour faire
une somme enti�re en euros). Ce montant donne droit �
voter, et � quelques avantages. Parmi ces avantages,
la personne pourra pr�ciser comment elle souhaite que
50% de la somme soit utilis�s de pr�f�rence (par
exemple, elle peut choisir d'attribuer ces 30 dollars
� l'achat de mat�riel, ou ces 30 dollars � l'achat de
mat�riel ou production de wikireaders). La cotisation
pourra �tre mensuelle.
Pour les membres actifs, il existera un tarif r�duit,
pour les �diteurs � revenus les plus faibles. Le
montant de la cotisation sera de 6 dollars. Pour
pouvoir rejoindre la foundation, et payer 6 dollars,
le membre devra obligatoirement �tre un �diteur, avoir
un certain temps de pr�sence parmi nous, et un certain
nombre d'�dit. Evidemment, nous esp�rons que la
majorit� des membres payants se tourneront vers les 60
dollars (ou qu'ils choisiront de payer 6 dollars et
ajouterons une petite donation suppl�mentaire). Le
montant de 6 dollars est tr�s faible en terme de
revenus pour la foundation, mais est pr�vu pour ne pas
exclure les bonnes volont�s.
I finished the proposition on membership dues. This
proposition may be seen at
http://meta.wikimedia/org/wiki/Membership_fees
In a few words...
If we put aside a certain number of honorary
positions, there are only three cases
* if a corporation offer significants, it will be said
"member". This amount will be between 500 to 1000
dollars. However, a corporation can not vote, and can
not hold a role on the board (ie, microsoft can't be
vicechair)
* a voluntary member is any person participating to a
wikimedia project, and agreeing to be part of the
foundation. Practically : we will add in preferences,
a page which will contain "description of what the
foundation is, rights and duties of a member (a sort
of charter) and a checking box to agree. By default,
the checking box will be on. This will of course be
free and will give the right to vote for the voluntary
representant (Angela) and feeling of belonging.
Compared to today, nothing will be changed really, but
for giving the right to editors to be member or not to
be member (today, by default, we consider everyone
is).
* an active member is anyone willing to be a member,
and to pay an annual fee. This person may be an editor
or not (having an account is not mandatory). Dues will
be 60 dollars (will be made an entire number in
euros). This amount give right to vote for the active
representant (Anthere) and a few advantages. Among
advantages, the person will be able to say what she
would like the foundation to do with 50% of the money
preferably. For example, that 30 dollars be used on
hardware. Of 30 dollars on hardware and wikireaders.
Dues may be paid monthly.
For active members, there will be a reduced fee, for
those editors with very low income or from poor
countries. That fee will be 6 dollars. Reduced fee
will be only for editors, with a certain time of
contribution, and a certain number of edits. We
naturally hope that most members will go for the 60
dollars or will choose to pay 6 dollars and will add a
donation on top. The 6 dollars amount will very likely
be very low in terms of income for the foundation, but
is meant not to discourage good will.
Les associations locales
Nous proposons que les pages permettant de rejoindre
une association locale soient h�berg�es sur le site de
la foundation. Selon la situation (l�gislation
locale), le futur membre pourra remplir un formulaire
en ligne, ou le t�l�charger et le remplir avant de le
renvoyer par courrier postal au secr�tariat de
l'association locale. Le syst�me de paiement en ligne
pourra �tre utilis�.
Tout membre payant une association locale sera
consid�r� un membre actif de la foundation, �
condition qu'il y ait un accord entre l'association et
la foundation (pour �viter les associations
"sauvages"). C'est � dire... d'une fa�on ou d'une
autre... r�trocession d'une partie des cotisations
depuis l'association locale vers la foundation.
Je souhaiterais discuter de la faisabilit� d'un
syst�me de f�d�ration d'associations, qui permettrait
� une association locale de devenir membre de la
foundation... en autorisant ainsi le versement d'une
cotisation. Il s'agirait donc d'un nouveau type de
membre, qui devrait probablement impliquer un nouveau
type de repr�sentation. Le montant de la cotisation
vers�e par l'association locale � la foundation serait
proportionnelle au nombre de cotisants de
l'association locale, et serait rediscut�e
annuellement, et �tabli en fonction de plusieurs
crit�res tels que
* niveau de vie g�n�ral pour le pays concern� (ie, le
PNB)
* le montant de la cotisation de l'association locale
(ie, un montant diff�rent est revers� dans le cas
d'une cotisation locale de 10 euros ou de 100 euros)
* l'anciennet� et la taille de l'association locale
(ie, une association juste naissante avec 15
membres... a peut �tre besoin de pratiquement tous ces
revenus pour �tre viable)
Sauf exceptions, il paraitrait logique qu'aucun
reversement soit inf�rieur � 6 dollars. L'avantage
d'une f�d�ration d'association est double
* il �tablit de fa�on plus clair un lien entre les
diff�rentes associations
* il donne un "objectif" (une raison d'�tre) � un
mouvement d'argent d'un pays � un autre. Il ne s'agit
pas de blanchiment d'argent, mais de cotisations.
Enfin, nous pourrions dire que dans une situation
similaire (dur�e de l'assoc, nombre de membres) pour
des pays � niveau de vie similaire, devrait r�sulter
en une cotisation similaire. Pour �tre claire, si
l'assoc fran�aise d�cidait de mettre la cotis � 2
euros, alors que l'allemande �tait � 100 euros, cela
r�sulterait probablement en un tr�s large �cart en
terme de pouvoir de vote (car les francophones
auraient un tr�s grand nombre de membres, alors que
les allemands en auraient tr�s peu). Cela r�sulterait
peut �tre en des revenus similaires pour la
foundation, mais dans une situation politique....
assez n�faste.
Je prend bien sur une situation totalement extr�me,
qui a peu de chance de se produire puisque de et fr
ont choisi des montants assez similaires...mais vous
pouvez transposer l'id�e. Essentiellement, il est
assez d�licat de doser pour avoir
* d un cote, une prise en compte du niveau de vie de
chaque pays
* de l autre, de ne pas aboutir a des troubles civils.
I hope you can translate all this to those not
speaking english well. I would like your
opinion/feedback on this. Legal ones included :-)
I would like to insist that
* our project thriving on fees (and donations) is
probably the best and least controversial way to
finance ourselves (compared to grants)
* I wish that we go on thinking global, even if local
is obviously important as well and should be nurtured
* It is always tough to discuss money issues, and I
really do not want to upset anyone here. I am just
trying to find the most community agreeable and
legally feasible option.
J'aimerais vos commentaires � ce sujet (commentaires
l�gaux compris :-))
Je voudrais insister sur le fait
* que notre projet est plus � meme de vivre hors
controverse de cotisation (et de dons) (plutot que de
subventions, qui parfois exigent un retour...)
* j esp�re que nous continuerons � penser global, meme
si local est aussi important, et doit �tre cultiv�
* il est toujours difficile de discuter p�pettes, et
je ne veux pas facher qui que ce soit ici. J'essaye
juste de trouver la solution la plus acceptable pour
la communaut�, et l�galement viable.
Local chapters
We proposed that membership pages be hosted on the
wikimedia foundation website. Depending on local laws,
the future members will either fill a form online, or
download it and send it by mail to the secretary. On
line payment could be used.
Any paying member of a local association will be
listed as an active member of the foundation, provided
there is an agreement between local chapter and
foundation (to avoid "wild" associations). Ie, one way
or another, movement of part of the fees from the
local association to the foundation.
I would like to discuss the feasability of a
federation system, which would allow a local chapter
to become a member of the foundation....thus allowing
the paiement of a fee. It would be a new type of
membership, which would probably imply a new type of
representation.
The amount of the fee to be paid by the local chapter
would be proportional to the number of members in the
local chapter, and could be annually discussed,
depending on criteria such as
* level of life (PNB)
* fee amount in the local chapter (ie, a different
amount would be paid, if the local fee is 10 euros or
100 euros)
* age and size of local chapter (ie, a just starting
association of 15 members may need most of its
revenues to be viable)
Aside exception, it appears logical that no fee be
below 6 dollars per local person.
The advantage of an federation of association is
double
* it establishes better relationship between the
different associations
* it gives a reason for a money mouvement from one
country to another. It is not "embezzlment" but fees.
Also, we might say that similar situation (duration,
number of members), for similar life-level countries
should result in similar fee to the foundation.
To be blunt, if for example, the french chapter was
deciding to set a fee at 2 euros while the german one
was setting a fee at 100 euros, this might result in
huge discrepancies in terms of voting power (since it
is likely french people would have many many many
voting members, while german would have very few).
This would lead perhaps to similar revenues for the
foundation, but to a very unbalanced political
situation.
I take an extrem case, which is not likely to occur
since french and german fees are rather similar (which
is quite logical :-)), essentially to point out at how
delicate it might to be
* to have on one hand being fair in fee amount for
different level of life,*
* and on the other hand, not to have all this results
in nationalistic troubles :-)
I hope you can translate all this to those not
speaking english well. I would like your
opinion/feedback on this. Legal ones included :-)
I would like to insist that
* our project thriving on fees (and donations) is
probably the best and least controversial way to
finance ourselves (compared to grants)
* I wish that we go on thinking global, even if local
is obviously important as well and should be nurtured
* It is always tough to discuss money issues, and I
really do not want to upset anyone here. I am just
trying to find the most community agreeable and
legally feasible option.
__________________________________
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