Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India who were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks, Bodhisattwa
Dear Bodhi & other community members
First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia India is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion on any topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid volunteers & have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, there was a delay in drafting a reply.
As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user groups) in their volunteer roles.
Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't financially independent & is still dependent on external funding which is fraught with regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.
Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles in community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional roles to attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers around the world. In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_20...
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal.
Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want to appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in relation to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter before his term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on different issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory hurdles. I wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter is going through a difficult time.
Regards, Yohann Thomas Secretary Wikimedia India
---- On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India who were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks, Bodhisattwa _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your mail.
If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that many participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in that conference, he can represent the affiliate.
In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members unfit to attend such meeting?
Waiting for your reply, Bodhisattwa
On 3 Aug 2018 6:05 pm, "Yohann Thomas" yohannvt@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Bodhi & other community members
First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia India is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion on any topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid volunteers & have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, there was a delay in drafting a reply.
As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user groups) in their volunteer roles.
Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't financially independent & is still dependent on external funding which is fraught with regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.
Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles in community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional roles to attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers around the world. In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_20...
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal.
Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want to appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in relation to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter before his term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on different issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory hurdles. I wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter is going through a difficult time.
Regards, Yohann Thomas Secretary Wikimedia India
---- On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India who were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks, Bodhisattwa _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
(sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)
Hi Bodhi
I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want, I can give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions.
//In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was *invited* to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_20...
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal. //
Regards, Yohann Thomas Secretary Wikimedia India
On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 18:33 Bodhisattwa Mandal, bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your mail.
If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that many participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in that conference, he can represent the affiliate.
In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members unfit to attend such meeting?
Waiting for your reply, Bodhisattwa
On 3 Aug 2018 6:05 pm, "Yohann Thomas" yohannvt@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Bodhi & other community members
First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia India is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion on any topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid volunteers & have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, there was a delay in drafting a reply.
As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user groups) in their volunteer roles.
Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't financially independent & is still dependent on external funding which is fraught with regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.
Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles in community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional roles to attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers around the world. In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_20...
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal.
Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want to appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in relation to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter before his term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on different issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory hurdles. I wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter is going through a difficult time.
Regards, Yohann Thomas Secretary Wikimedia India
On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India who were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks, Bodhisattwa _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single word.
My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to make it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
1) Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to the main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal meetups, there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, if one steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the meetup, then he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. Same principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true, everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.
2) I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you provide the documentation of his invitation?
[1] https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018
3) As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already there were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went there with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation is not at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the informal meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they considered unfit or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?
4) Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same. Whereas Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So, sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend the conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain that?
5) Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend the conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because Rahul is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?
I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also, I hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't take it personally.
Waiting for your detailed reply,
Bodhisattwa
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 11:08 Yohann Thomas, yohannvt@gmail.com wrote:
(sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)
Hi Bodhi
I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want, I can give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions.
//In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was *invited* to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_20...
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal. //
Regards, Yohann Thomas Secretary Wikimedia India
On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 18:33 Bodhisattwa Mandal, bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your mail.
If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that many participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in that conference, he can represent the affiliate.
In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members unfit to attend such meeting?
Waiting for your reply, Bodhisattwa
On 3 Aug 2018 6:05 pm, "Yohann Thomas" yohannvt@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Bodhi & other community members
First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia India is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion on any topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid volunteers & have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, there was a delay in drafting a reply.
As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user groups) in their volunteer roles.
Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't financially independent & is still dependent on external funding which is fraught with regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.
Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles in community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional roles to attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers around the world. In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_20...
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal.
Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want to appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in relation to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter before his term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on different issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory hurdles. I wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter is going through a difficult time.
Regards, Yohann Thomas Secretary Wikimedia India
On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India who were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks, Bodhisattwa _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Hello Bodhisattva,
Please allow me to respond to your confusions. Responses in line.
Again, as stated in my first mail on the thread, you are making too many value-judgments with un-friendly tone.
On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 12:27 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single word.
My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to make it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
- Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to the
main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal meetups, there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, if one steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the meetup, then he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. Same principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true, everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.
If you check the agenda section, WMIN President gave a talk on Conflict Resolution, this is followed my summary in the notes. When there are so many conflicts in Wikimedia communities across the globle, someone from India is invited to put this theories towards resolution. This is a welcome step. From Notes to his Summary Talk to how this will be carried forward for future course, every thing is documented.
He did not simply attend the meeting as a participant or representing Wikimedia India, he was a lead on the 3rd point of the Agenda which is Conflcit Resolution. Everything on it is documented.
- I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of
chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you provide the documentation of his invitation?
[1] https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018
I am sure when Wikimedia India President is invited to give a talk on a defined Agenda, 'Conflict Resolution' and CIS-A2K is approving his request, he must on record have recieved an invitation.
It cannot be that without an invitation someone would travel so far. Also, please remember, unlike WMF staff or CIS-A2K, when someone from Wikimedia India has to travel, he has to forgoe his personal paid holidays. WMF staff or CIS-A2K travel abroad calling it 'On Work'.
- As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already there
were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went there with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation is not at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the informal meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they considered unfit or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?
This is about merit of the particular individual. This has nothing to do with the other Two EC.
Secondly, stating this again, he didn't travel simply to attend the meeting, he was given a set agenda to speak that is 'Conflict Resolution'. It was a subject of one's personal merit on which the organising committee invited him, this cannot be passed to other members of the same affiliate.
- Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same. Whereas
Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So, sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend the conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain that?
I do not think that if Wikimedia India President didn't go someone else would have been promoted. CIS-A2K should give a clarification on this.
Simply stating it once again, he didn't just travel to attend the conference, he was a speaker. This is entirely a different subject.
- Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend the
conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because Rahul is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?
In response to statement 4.
I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also, I hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't take it personally.
Waiting for your detailed reply,
Bodhisattwa
Additional Comment : When someone India is selected or rather invited to give talk in an attempt to resolve the global problem. For me, this is a welcome step.
I am sorry but again I find you to harsh towards the India Chapter. This is my personal observation.
Abhinav
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 11:08 Yohann Thomas, yohannvt@gmail.com wrote:
(sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)
Hi Bodhi
I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want, I can give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions.
//In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was *invited* to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_20...
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal. //
Regards, Yohann Thomas Secretary Wikimedia India
On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 18:33 Bodhisattwa Mandal, < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your mail.
If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that many participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in that conference, he can represent the affiliate.
In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members unfit to attend such meeting?
Waiting for your reply, Bodhisattwa
On 3 Aug 2018 6:05 pm, "Yohann Thomas" yohannvt@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Bodhi & other community members
First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia India is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion on any topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid volunteers & have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, there was a delay in drafting a reply.
As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user groups) in their volunteer roles.
Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't financially independent & is still dependent on external funding which is fraught with regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.
Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles in community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional roles to attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers around the world. In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_20...
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal.
Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want to appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in relation to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter before his term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on different issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory hurdles. I wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter is going through a difficult time.
Regards, Yohann Thomas Secretary Wikimedia India
On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India who were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks, Bodhisattwa _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
I was expecting a reply from WMIN.
Thanks, Bodhisattwa
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 14:25 Abhinav srivastava, abhinav619@gmail.com wrote:
Hello Bodhisattva,
Please allow me to respond to your confusions. Responses in line.
Again, as stated in my first mail on the thread, you are making too many value-judgments with un-friendly tone.
On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 12:27 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single word.
My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to make it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
- Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to the
main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal meetups, there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, if one steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the meetup, then he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. Same principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true, everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.
If you check the agenda section, WMIN President gave a talk on Conflict Resolution, this is followed my summary in the notes. When there are so many conflicts in Wikimedia communities across the globle, someone from India is invited to put this theories towards resolution. This is a welcome step. From Notes to his Summary Talk to how this will be carried forward for future course, every thing is documented.
He did not simply attend the meeting as a participant or representing Wikimedia India, he was a lead on the 3rd point of the Agenda which is Conflcit Resolution. Everything on it is documented.
- I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of
chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you provide the documentation of his invitation?
[1] https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018
I am sure when Wikimedia India President is invited to give a talk on a defined Agenda, 'Conflict Resolution' and CIS-A2K is approving his request, he must on record have recieved an invitation.
It cannot be that without an invitation someone would travel so far. Also, please remember, unlike WMF staff or CIS-A2K, when someone from Wikimedia India has to travel, he has to forgoe his personal paid holidays. WMF staff or CIS-A2K travel abroad calling it 'On Work'.
- As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already
there were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went there with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation is not at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the informal meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they considered unfit or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?
This is about merit of the particular individual. This has nothing to do with the other Two EC.
Secondly, stating this again, he didn't travel simply to attend the meeting, he was given a set agenda to speak that is 'Conflict Resolution'. It was a subject of one's personal merit on which the organising committee invited him, this cannot be passed to other members of the same affiliate.
- Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same. Whereas
Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So, sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend the conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain that?
I do not think that if Wikimedia India President didn't go someone else would have been promoted. CIS-A2K should give a clarification on this.
Simply stating it once again, he didn't just travel to attend the conference, he was a speaker. This is entirely a different subject.
- Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend the
conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because Rahul is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?
In response to statement 4.
I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also, I hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't take it personally.
Waiting for your detailed reply,
Bodhisattwa
Additional Comment : When someone India is selected or rather invited to give talk in an attempt to resolve the global problem. For me, this is a welcome step.
I am sorry but again I find you to harsh towards the India Chapter. This is my personal observation.
Abhinav
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 11:08 Yohann Thomas, yohannvt@gmail.com wrote:
(sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)
Hi Bodhi
I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want, I can give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions.
//In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was *invited* to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_20...
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal. //
Regards, Yohann Thomas Secretary Wikimedia India
On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 18:33 Bodhisattwa Mandal, < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your mail.
If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that many participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in that conference, he can represent the affiliate.
In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members unfit to attend such meeting?
Waiting for your reply, Bodhisattwa
On 3 Aug 2018 6:05 pm, "Yohann Thomas" yohannvt@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Bodhi & other community members
First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia India is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion on any topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid volunteers & have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, there was a delay in drafting a reply.
As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user groups) in their volunteer roles.
Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't financially independent & is still dependent on external funding which is fraught with regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.
Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles in community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional roles to attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers around the world. In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_20...
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal.
Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want to appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in relation to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter before his term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on different issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory hurdles. I wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter is going through a difficult time.
Regards, Yohann Thomas Secretary Wikimedia India
On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India who were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks, Bodhisattwa _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Just to clarify, my responses below are not about Rahul at all but in general -
What Bodhi wrote earlier makes sense, “participation for chairpersons meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup”. A Wikimania participant gets to attend many such informal meetups, and I’d like to believe that they certainly add value to the movement. But participation in such small little occasion (not small as less worthy but small as compared to a large formal event) does not really justify a 3-4 day-long travel which affects one’s personal/work life (as you rightly put it).
Also, I personally think that if a question is directed towards an organization, it’s better to wait for sometime until they get back. We, as a community, have quite some time now until next Wikimania to set a better standard and fix if something is broken. :)
A2K providing support to the community (Wikimedia India included) in general is a good practice. Maybe this is the right time for the community to come forward to share what they feel should be the right way (or ways) A2K could follow while supporting someone from Wikimedia India. The way they support the individual Wikimedians (from the scholarship waitlist) seems fairly simple and straightforward. Supporting WMIN lies in a grey area because one individual from 7 people gets selected. The consensus process involved in that process need to be more transparent.
Subhashish
On Aug 5, 2018, at 2:27 PM, Bodhisattwa Mandal bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com wrote:
I was expecting a reply from WMIN.
Thanks, Bodhisattwa
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 14:25 Abhinav srivastava, abhinav619@gmail.com wrote: Hello Bodhisattva,
Please allow me to respond to your confusions. Responses in line.
Again, as stated in my first mail on the thread, you are making too many value-judgments with un-friendly tone.
On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 12:27 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com wrote: Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single word.
My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to make it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
- Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to the main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal meetups, there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, if one steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the meetup, then he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. Same principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true, everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.
If you check the agenda section, WMIN President gave a talk on Conflict Resolution, this is followed my summary in the notes. When there are so many conflicts in Wikimedia communities across the globle, someone from India is invited to put this theories towards resolution. This is a welcome step. From Notes to his Summary Talk to how this will be carried forward for future course, every thing is documented.
He did not simply attend the meeting as a participant or representing Wikimedia India, he was a lead on the 3rd point of the Agenda which is Conflcit Resolution. Everything on it is documented.
- I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you provide the documentation of his invitation?
[1] https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018 [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018
I am sure when Wikimedia India President is invited to give a talk on a defined Agenda, 'Conflict Resolution' and CIS-A2K is approving his request, he must on record have recieved an invitation.
It cannot be that without an invitation someone would travel so far. Also, please remember, unlike WMF staff or CIS-A2K, when someone from Wikimedia India has to travel, he has to forgoe his personal paid holidays. WMF staff or CIS-A2K travel abroad calling it 'On Work'.
- As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already there were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went there with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation is not at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the informal meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they considered unfit or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?
This is about merit of the particular individual. This has nothing to do with the other Two EC.
Secondly, stating this again, he didn't travel simply to attend the meeting, he was given a set agenda to speak that is 'Conflict Resolution'. It was a subject of one's personal merit on which the organising committee invited him, this cannot be passed to other members of the same affiliate.
- Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same. Whereas Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So, sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend the conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain that?
I do not think that if Wikimedia India President didn't go someone else would have been promoted. CIS-A2K should give a clarification on this.
Simply stating it once again, he didn't just travel to attend the conference, he was a speaker. This is entirely a different subject.
- Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend the conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because Rahul is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?
In response to statement 4.
I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also, I hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't take it personally.
Waiting for your detailed reply,
Bodhisattwa
Additional Comment : When someone India is selected or rather invited to give talk in an attempt to resolve the global problem. For me, this is a welcome step.
I am sorry but again I find you to harsh towards the India Chapter. This is my personal observation.
Abhinav
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 11:08 Yohann Thomas, yohannvt@gmail.com wrote: (sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)
Hi Bodhi
I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want, I can give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions.
//In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_20...
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal. //
Regards, Yohann Thomas Secretary Wikimedia India
On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 18:33 Bodhisattwa Mandal, bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com wrote: Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your mail.
If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that many participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in that conference, he can represent the affiliate.
In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members unfit to attend such meeting?
Waiting for your reply, Bodhisattwa
On 3 Aug 2018 6:05 pm, "Yohann Thomas" yohannvt@gmail.com wrote: Dear Bodhi & other community members
First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia India is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion on any topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid volunteers & have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, there was a delay in drafting a reply.
As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user groups) in their volunteer roles.
Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't financially independent & is still dependent on external funding which is fraught with regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.
Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles in community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional roles to attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers around the world. In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_20...
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal.
Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want to appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in relation to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter before his term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on different issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory hurdles. I wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter is going through a difficult time.
Regards, Yohann Thomas Secretary Wikimedia India
On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com wrote: Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India who were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks, Bodhisattwa _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Hello Subhashish,
I would put a few of my reflections. Responses in line.
On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 6:15 PM Subhashish Panigrahi psubhashish@gmail.com wrote:
Just to clarify, my responses below are not about Rahul at all but in general -
Yes ! The issue is much larger.
What Bodhi wrote earlier makes sense, “participation for chairpersons meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup”. A Wikimania participant gets to attend many such informal meetups, and I’d like to believe that they certainly add value to the movement. But participation in such small little occasion (not small as less worthy but small as compared to a large formal event) does not really justify a 3-4 day-long travel which affects one’s personal/work life (as you rightly put it).
I believe judgements should only be made based on objectivity. I am not too sure if being a speaker on a global platform can be called upon as a 'such small little occassion'. Then, how do we make judgements ? Through reports, learning patterns, minutes of the meeting etc. In fact, we all such contemplate on the reports and learning patterns as found on the Meta Page. It clearly states how this agenda would be further worked upon and then taken up in the next meeting. We all should give suggestions. Thank You, Subhashish for bringing up the issue of reporting.
Also, Subhashish, now that you have appropriate bandwidth, I believe refelctions on the Bengaluru meetup can be done. It would be a great learning experience for delegrates attending next year Wikimedia Conference. :) . Please Note : No Attempts to deviate from the topic.
Also, I personally think that if a question is directed towards an organization, it’s better to wait for sometime until they get back. We, as a community, have quite some time now until next Wikimania to set a better standard and fix if something is broken. :)
Of Course ! Both Wikimedia India and CIS-A2K are responsive and this is a welcome step. I would like to bring to attention, once the Wikimedia India Program Director had initiated an idea that particular volunteer to attend only two Wikimania and in turn leave space for other volunteers.
Some of our community members have been visiting Wikimania like from Hong Kong Wikimania in 2013, United Kingdom Wikimania in 2014, Mexico Wikimania in 2015, Italy Wikimania in 2016, Canadan Wikimania in 2017 and now South Afrcia.
This is just a suggestion floated since the idea of next year Wikimania is discussed. Wikimedia Projects are about the art of giving and making space for other volunteers could just be one step.
A2K providing support to the community (Wikimedia India included) in general is a good practice. Maybe this is the right time for the community to come forward to share what they feel should be the right way (or ways) A2K could follow while supporting someone from Wikimedia India. The way they support the individual Wikimedians (from the scholarship waitlist) seems fairly simple and straightforward. Supporting WMIN lies in a grey area because one individual from 7 people gets selected. The consensus process involved in that process need to be more transparent.
Yes ! Definitely. Transparency is the key. I am glad that CIS-A2K stood firm in apologising. This is a very welcome step. However as pointed out in my previous mail, supporting a scholarship reciepient in waiting and a speaker are two different subjects. I am not sure if judgements such as 'grey areas' should be made but Yes it calls for a discussion on how things should work upon.
The consensus process is also something that calls for a discussion. From informing the team members to taking consensus, the community's will on this should be recorded with the Chapter. It is nice to hear that EC was copied in the request mail and aderance to transparecy is being made.
Subhashish
P.S : I may be slow in responses to future mails for the next 6 days. I am no travel.
Abhinav
On Aug 5, 2018, at 2:27 PM, Bodhisattwa Mandal < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
I was expecting a reply from WMIN.
Thanks, Bodhisattwa
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 14:25 Abhinav srivastava, abhinav619@gmail.com wrote:
Hello Bodhisattva,
Please allow me to respond to your confusions. Responses in line.
Again, as stated in my first mail on the thread, you are making too many value-judgments with un-friendly tone.
On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 12:27 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single word.
My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to make it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
- Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to
the main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal meetups, there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, if one steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the meetup, then he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. Same principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true, everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.
If you check the agenda section, WMIN President gave a talk on Conflict Resolution, this is followed my summary in the notes. When there are so many conflicts in Wikimedia communities across the globle, someone from India is invited to put this theories towards resolution. This is a welcome step. From Notes to his Summary Talk to how this will be carried forward for future course, every thing is documented.
He did not simply attend the meeting as a participant or representing Wikimedia India, he was a lead on the 3rd point of the Agenda which is Conflcit Resolution. Everything on it is documented.
- I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of
chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you provide the documentation of his invitation?
[1] https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018
I am sure when Wikimedia India President is invited to give a talk on a defined Agenda, 'Conflict Resolution' and CIS-A2K is approving his request, he must on record have recieved an invitation.
It cannot be that without an invitation someone would travel so far. Also, please remember, unlike WMF staff or CIS-A2K, when someone from Wikimedia India has to travel, he has to forgoe his personal paid holidays. WMF staff or CIS-A2K travel abroad calling it 'On Work'.
- As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already
there were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went there with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation is not at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the informal meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they considered unfit or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?
This is about merit of the particular individual. This has nothing to do with the other Two EC.
Secondly, stating this again, he didn't travel simply to attend the meeting, he was given a set agenda to speak that is 'Conflict Resolution'. It was a subject of one's personal merit on which the organising committee invited him, this cannot be passed to other members of the same affiliate.
- Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same. Whereas
Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So, sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend the conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain that?
I do not think that if Wikimedia India President didn't go someone else would have been promoted. CIS-A2K should give a clarification on this.
Simply stating it once again, he didn't just travel to attend the conference, he was a speaker. This is entirely a different subject.
- Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend the
conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because Rahul is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?
In response to statement 4.
I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also, I hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't take it personally.
Waiting for your detailed reply,
Bodhisattwa
Additional Comment : When someone India is selected or rather invited to give talk in an attempt to resolve the global problem. For me, this is a welcome step.
I am sorry but again I find you to harsh towards the India Chapter. This is my personal observation.
Abhinav
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 11:08 Yohann Thomas, yohannvt@gmail.com wrote:
(sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)
Hi Bodhi
I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want, I can give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions.
//In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was *invited* to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_20...
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal. //
Regards, Yohann Thomas Secretary Wikimedia India
On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 18:33 Bodhisattwa Mandal, < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your mail.
If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that many participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in that conference, he can represent the affiliate.
In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members unfit to attend such meeting?
Waiting for your reply, Bodhisattwa
On 3 Aug 2018 6:05 pm, "Yohann Thomas" yohannvt@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Bodhi & other community members
First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia India is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion on any topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid volunteers & have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, there was a delay in drafting a reply.
As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user groups) in their volunteer roles.
Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't financially independent & is still dependent on external funding which is fraught with regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.
Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles in community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional roles to attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers around the world. In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_20...
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal.
Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want to appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in relation to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter before his term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on different issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory hurdles. I wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter is going through a difficult time.
Regards, Yohann Thomas Secretary Wikimedia India
On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India who were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks, Bodhisattwa _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
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Subhashish
On Aug 5, 2018, at 7:06 PM, Abhinav srivastava abhinav619@gmail.com wrote:
Hello Subhashish,
I would put a few of my reflections. Responses in line.
On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 6:15 PM Subhashish Panigrahi psubhashish@gmail.com wrote: Just to clarify, my responses below are not about Rahul at all but in general -
Yes ! The issue is much larger.
What Bodhi wrote earlier makes sense, “participation for chairpersons meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup”. A Wikimania participant gets to attend many such informal meetups, and I’d like to believe that they certainly add value to the movement. But participation in such small little occasion (not small as less worthy but small as compared to a large formal event) does not really justify a 3-4 day-long travel which affects one’s personal/work life (as you rightly put it).
I believe judgements should only be made based on objectivity. I am not too sure if being a speaker on a global platform can be called upon as a 'such small little occassion'. Then, how do we make judgements ?
No judgements. Still stand by my words. Speaking slot in an ‘informal meetup’ that is attended by a small set of people is smaller than a formal talk in a formal event. But then, many Wikimedians whose talks and workshops get selected at Wikimania don’t get a chance to attend Wikimania in the first place for various reasons.
Through reports, learning patterns, minutes of the meeting etc. In fact, we all such contemplate on the reports and learning patterns as found on the Meta Page. It clearly states how this agenda would be further worked upon and then taken up in the next meeting. We all should give suggestions. Thank You, Subhashish for bringing up the issue of reporting.
Also, Subhashish, now that you have appropriate bandwidth, I believe refelctions on the Bengaluru meetup can be done.
I never said I have the appropriate bandwidth now. :) In fact, I’m trying to reflect on something that is recent - Wikimania - with the community. The Bangalore meeting is no longer a priority for me at the moment. I shared the notes with the community right after the meeting.
I thought I shared the fact that I had shared the discussions with my own community.
It would be a great learning experience for delegrates attending next year Wikimedia Conference. :) . Please Note : No Attempts to deviate from the topic.
It’s clearly deviating from the main topic. Better to start a new thread instead.
Also, I personally think that if a question is directed towards an organization, it’s better to wait for sometime until they get back. We, as a community, have quite some time now until next Wikimania to set a better standard and fix if something is broken. :)
Of Course ! Both Wikimedia India and CIS-A2K are responsive and this is a welcome step. I would like to bring to attention, once the Wikimedia India Program Director had initiated an idea that particular volunteer to attend only two Wikimania and in turn leave space for other volunteers.
It was a suggestion from Ravi and not something set in stone.
Some of our community members have been visiting Wikimania like from Hong Kong Wikimania in 2013, United Kingdom Wikimania in 2014, Mexico Wikimania in 2015, Italy Wikimania in 2016, Canadan Wikimania in 2017 and now South Afrcia.
What’s the point here? Wikimedians from India are a subset of a much larger community and there are Wikimedians who have attended all the Wikimanias. Where you’re going with this statement?
This is just a suggestion floated since the idea of next year Wikimania is discussed. Wikimedia Projects are about the art of giving and making space for other volunteers could just be one step.
Still not sure. I don’t remember very well but I probably will check again from the archives - Phoebe shared a long note earlier. If one Wikimedian from India does not apply for a scholarship it doesn’t mean that another Wikimedian from India would receive it. Not sure if it works that way.
A2K providing support to the community (Wikimedia India included) in general is a good practice. Maybe this is the right time for the community to come forward to share what they feel should be the right way (or ways) A2K could follow while supporting someone from Wikimedia India. The way they support the individual Wikimedians (from the scholarship waitlist) seems fairly simple and straightforward. Supporting WMIN lies in a grey area because one individual from 7 people gets selected. The consensus process involved in that process need to be more transparent.
Yes ! Definitely. Transparency is the key. I am glad that CIS-A2K stood firm in apologising. This is a very welcome step. However as pointed out in my previous mail, supporting a scholarship reciepient in waiting and a speaker are two different subjects. I am not sure if judgements such as 'grey areas' should be made but Yes it calls for a discussion on how things should work upon.
The consensus process is also something that calls for a discussion. From informing the team members to taking consensus, the community's will on this should be recorded with the Chapter. It is nice to hear that EC was copied in the request mail and aderance to transparecy is being made.
Subhashish
P.S : I may be slow in responses to future mails for the next 6 days. I am no travel.
Abhinav
On Aug 5, 2018, at 2:27 PM, Bodhisattwa Mandal bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com wrote:
I was expecting a reply from WMIN.
Thanks, Bodhisattwa
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 14:25 Abhinav srivastava, abhinav619@gmail.com wrote: Hello Bodhisattva,
Please allow me to respond to your confusions. Responses in line.
Again, as stated in my first mail on the thread, you are making too many value-judgments with un-friendly tone.
On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 12:27 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com wrote: Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single word.
My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to make it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
- Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to the main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal meetups, there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, if one steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the meetup, then he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. Same principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true, everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.
If you check the agenda section, WMIN President gave a talk on Conflict Resolution, this is followed my summary in the notes. When there are so many conflicts in Wikimedia communities across the globle, someone from India is invited to put this theories towards resolution. This is a welcome step. From Notes to his Summary Talk to how this will be carried forward for future course, every thing is documented.
He did not simply attend the meeting as a participant or representing Wikimedia India, he was a lead on the 3rd point of the Agenda which is Conflcit Resolution. Everything on it is documented.
- I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you provide the documentation of his invitation?
[1] https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018 [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018
I am sure when Wikimedia India President is invited to give a talk on a defined Agenda, 'Conflict Resolution' and CIS-A2K is approving his request, he must on record have recieved an invitation.
It cannot be that without an invitation someone would travel so far. Also, please remember, unlike WMF staff or CIS-A2K, when someone from Wikimedia India has to travel, he has to forgoe his personal paid holidays. WMF staff or CIS-A2K travel abroad calling it 'On Work'.
- As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already there were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went there with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation is not at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the informal meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they considered unfit or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?
This is about merit of the particular individual. This has nothing to do with the other Two EC.
Secondly, stating this again, he didn't travel simply to attend the meeting, he was given a set agenda to speak that is 'Conflict Resolution'. It was a subject of one's personal merit on which the organising committee invited him, this cannot be passed to other members of the same affiliate.
- Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same. Whereas Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So, sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend the conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain that?
I do not think that if Wikimedia India President didn't go someone else would have been promoted. CIS-A2K should give a clarification on this.
Simply stating it once again, he didn't just travel to attend the conference, he was a speaker. This is entirely a different subject.
- Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend the conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because Rahul is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?
In response to statement 4.
I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also, I hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't take it personally.
Waiting for your detailed reply,
Bodhisattwa
Additional Comment : When someone India is selected or rather invited to give talk in an attempt to resolve the global problem. For me, this is a welcome step.
I am sorry but again I find you to harsh towards the India Chapter. This is my personal observation.
Abhinav
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 11:08 Yohann Thomas, yohannvt@gmail.com wrote: (sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)
Hi Bodhi
I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want, I can give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions.
//In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_20...
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal. //
Regards, Yohann Thomas Secretary Wikimedia India
> On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 18:33 Bodhisattwa Mandal, bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com wrote: > Hi Yohann, > > Thanks for your mail. > > If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that many participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in that conference, he can represent the affiliate. > > In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members unfit to attend such meeting? > > Waiting for your reply, > Bodhisattwa > > > On 3 Aug 2018 6:05 pm, "Yohann Thomas" yohannvt@gmail.com wrote: > Dear Bodhi & other community members > > First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia India is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion on any topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid volunteers & have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, there was a delay in drafting a reply. > > As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user groups) in their volunteer roles. > > Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't financially independent & is still dependent on external funding which is fraught with regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA. > > Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles in community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional roles to attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers around the world. > In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below. > > https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_20... > > With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal. > > Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want to appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in relation to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter before his term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on different issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory hurdles. I wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter is going through a difficult time. > > Regards, > Yohann Thomas > Secretary > Wikimedia India > > ---- >> On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com wrote: >> Hi, >> >> WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India who were in the waiting list. >> >> He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the meeting. >> >> To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money. >> >> Thanks, >> Bodhisattwa >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >
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Hi Abhinav,
Please stop diverting the topic. If those other discussions are important for you, please start separate new threads. My questions were directed to WMIN, please let them respond.
Thanks, Bodhisattwa
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 19:55 Subhashish Panigrahi, psubhashish@gmail.com wrote:
Subhashish
On Aug 5, 2018, at 7:06 PM, Abhinav srivastava abhinav619@gmail.com wrote:
Hello Subhashish,
I would put a few of my reflections. Responses in line.
On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 6:15 PM Subhashish Panigrahi psubhashish@gmail.com wrote:
Just to clarify, my responses below are not about Rahul at all but in general -
Yes ! The issue is much larger.
What Bodhi wrote earlier makes sense, “participation for chairpersons meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup”. A Wikimania participant gets to attend many such informal meetups, and I’d like to believe that they certainly add value to the movement. But participation in such small little occasion (not small as less worthy but small as compared to a large formal event) does not really justify a 3-4 day-long travel which affects one’s personal/work life (as you rightly put it).
I believe judgements should only be made based on objectivity. I am not too sure if being a speaker on a global platform can be called upon as a 'such small little occassion'. Then, how do we make judgements ?
No judgements. Still stand by my words. Speaking slot in an ‘informal meetup’ that is attended by a small set of people is smaller than a formal talk in a formal event. But then, many Wikimedians whose talks and workshops get selected at Wikimania don’t get a chance to attend Wikimania in the first place for various reasons.
Through reports, learning patterns, minutes of the meeting etc. In fact, we all such contemplate on the reports and learning patterns as found on the Meta Page. It clearly states how this agenda would be further worked upon and then taken up in the next meeting. We all should give suggestions. Thank You, Subhashish for bringing up the issue of reporting.
Also, Subhashish, now that you have appropriate bandwidth, I believe refelctions on the Bengaluru meetup can be done.
I never said I have the appropriate bandwidth now. :) In fact, I’m trying to reflect on something that is recent - Wikimania - with the community. The Bangalore meeting is no longer a priority for me at the moment. I shared the notes with the community right after the meeting.
I thought I shared the fact that I had shared the discussions with my own community.
It would be a great learning experience for delegrates attending next year Wikimedia Conference. :) . Please Note : No Attempts to deviate from the topic.
It’s clearly deviating from the main topic. Better to start a new thread instead.
Also, I personally think that if a question is directed towards an organization, it’s better to wait for sometime until they get back. We, as a community, have quite some time now until next Wikimania to set a better standard and fix if something is broken. :)
Of Course ! Both Wikimedia India and CIS-A2K are responsive and this is a welcome step. I would like to bring to attention, once the Wikimedia India Program Director had initiated an idea that particular volunteer to attend only two Wikimania and in turn leave space for other volunteers.
It was a suggestion from Ravi and not something set in stone.
Some of our community members have been visiting Wikimania like from Hong Kong Wikimania in 2013, United Kingdom Wikimania in 2014, Mexico Wikimania in 2015, Italy Wikimania in 2016, Canadan Wikimania in 2017 and now South Afrcia.
What’s the point here? Wikimedians from India are a subset of a much larger community and there are Wikimedians who have attended all the Wikimanias. Where you’re going with this statement?
This is just a suggestion floated since the idea of next year Wikimania is discussed. Wikimedia Projects are about the art of giving and making space for other volunteers could just be one step.
Still not sure. I don’t remember very well but I probably will check again from the archives - Phoebe shared a long note earlier. If one Wikimedian from India does not apply for a scholarship it doesn’t mean that another Wikimedian from India would receive it. Not sure if it works that way.
A2K providing support to the community (Wikimedia India included) in general is a good practice. Maybe this is the right time for the community to come forward to share what they feel should be the right way (or ways) A2K could follow while supporting someone from Wikimedia India. The way they support the individual Wikimedians (from the scholarship waitlist) seems fairly simple and straightforward. Supporting WMIN lies in a grey area because one individual from 7 people gets selected. The consensus process involved in that process need to be more transparent.
Yes ! Definitely. Transparency is the key. I am glad that CIS-A2K stood firm in apologising. This is a very welcome step. However as pointed out in my previous mail, supporting a scholarship reciepient in waiting and a speaker are two different subjects. I am not sure if judgements such as 'grey areas' should be made but Yes it calls for a discussion on how things should work upon.
The consensus process is also something that calls for a discussion. From informing the team members to taking consensus, the community's will on this should be recorded with the Chapter. It is nice to hear that EC was copied in the request mail and aderance to transparecy is being made.
Subhashish
P.S : I may be slow in responses to future mails for the next 6 days. I am no travel.
Abhinav
On Aug 5, 2018, at 2:27 PM, Bodhisattwa Mandal < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
I was expecting a reply from WMIN.
Thanks, Bodhisattwa
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 14:25 Abhinav srivastava, abhinav619@gmail.com wrote:
Hello Bodhisattva,
Please allow me to respond to your confusions. Responses in line.
Again, as stated in my first mail on the thread, you are making too many value-judgments with un-friendly tone.
On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 12:27 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single word.
My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to make it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
- Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to
the main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal meetups, there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, if one steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the meetup, then he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. Same principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true, everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.
If you check the agenda section, WMIN President gave a talk on Conflict Resolution, this is followed my summary in the notes. When there are so many conflicts in Wikimedia communities across the globle, someone from India is invited to put this theories towards resolution. This is a welcome step. From Notes to his Summary Talk to how this will be carried forward for future course, every thing is documented.
He did not simply attend the meeting as a participant or representing Wikimedia India, he was a lead on the 3rd point of the Agenda which is Conflcit Resolution. Everything on it is documented.
- I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of
chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you provide the documentation of his invitation?
[1] https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018
I am sure when Wikimedia India President is invited to give a talk on a defined Agenda, 'Conflict Resolution' and CIS-A2K is approving his request, he must on record have recieved an invitation.
It cannot be that without an invitation someone would travel so far. Also, please remember, unlike WMF staff or CIS-A2K, when someone from Wikimedia India has to travel, he has to forgoe his personal paid holidays. WMF staff or CIS-A2K travel abroad calling it 'On Work'.
- As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already
there were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went there with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation is not at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the informal meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they considered unfit or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?
This is about merit of the particular individual. This has nothing to do with the other Two EC.
Secondly, stating this again, he didn't travel simply to attend the meeting, he was given a set agenda to speak that is 'Conflict Resolution'. It was a subject of one's personal merit on which the organising committee invited him, this cannot be passed to other members of the same affiliate.
- Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same. Whereas
Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So, sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend the conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain that?
I do not think that if Wikimedia India President didn't go someone else would have been promoted. CIS-A2K should give a clarification on this.
Simply stating it once again, he didn't just travel to attend the conference, he was a speaker. This is entirely a different subject.
- Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend
the conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because Rahul is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?
In response to statement 4.
I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also, I hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't take it personally.
Waiting for your detailed reply,
Bodhisattwa
Additional Comment : When someone India is selected or rather invited to give talk in an attempt to resolve the global problem. For me, this is a welcome step.
I am sorry but again I find you to harsh towards the India Chapter. This is my personal observation.
Abhinav
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 11:08 Yohann Thomas, yohannvt@gmail.com wrote:
(sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)
Hi Bodhi
I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want, I can give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions.
//In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was *invited* to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_20...
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal. //
Regards, Yohann Thomas Secretary Wikimedia India
On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 18:33 Bodhisattwa Mandal, < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your mail.
If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that many participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in that conference, he can represent the affiliate.
In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members unfit to attend such meeting?
Waiting for your reply, Bodhisattwa
On 3 Aug 2018 6:05 pm, "Yohann Thomas" yohannvt@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Bodhi & other community members
First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia India is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion on any topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid volunteers & have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, there was a delay in drafting a reply.
As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user groups) in their volunteer roles.
Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't financially independent & is still dependent on external funding which is fraught with regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.
Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles in community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional roles to attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers around the world. In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_20...
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal.
Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want to appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in relation to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter before his term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on different issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory hurdles. I wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter is going through a difficult time.
Regards, Yohann Thomas Secretary Wikimedia India
On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi, > > WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in > Cape Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question > is why was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from > India who were in the waiting list. > > He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The > meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and > already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the > meeting. > > To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money. > > Thanks, > Bodhisattwa > _______________________________________________ > Wikimediaindia-l mailing list > Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >
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Hello Bodhisattwa,
I won't be available from tomorrow onwards as stated in my previous mail. I would like to reply to Subhashish, this evening.
I am a bit surprised because of I when I wrote a clarification you simply discarded and wrote, "Let WMIN reply". As advised to you on Wikimania mailing list, it would have been better if you had raised these directly with the EC. Since it is on a public mailing list, I am free to voice my opinion.
Responses to Subhashish in line.
On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 8:13 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Abhinav,
Please stop diverting the topic. If those other discussions are important for you, please start separate new threads. My questions were directed to WMIN, please let them respond.
Thanks, Bodhisattwa
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 19:55 Subhashish Panigrahi, psubhashish@gmail.com wrote:
Subhashish
On Aug 5, 2018, at 7:06 PM, Abhinav srivastava abhinav619@gmail.com wrote:
Hello Subhashish,
I would put a few of my reflections. Responses in line.
On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 6:15 PM Subhashish Panigrahi < psubhashish@gmail.com> wrote:
Just to clarify, my responses below are not about Rahul at all but in general -
Yes ! The issue is much larger.
What Bodhi wrote earlier makes sense, “participation for chairpersons meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup”. A Wikimania participant gets to attend many such informal meetups, and I’d like to believe that they certainly add value to the movement. But participation in such small little occasion (not small as less worthy but small as compared to a large formal event) does not really justify a 3-4 day-long travel which affects one’s personal/work life (as you rightly put it).
I believe judgements should only be made based on objectivity. I am not too sure if being a speaker on a global platform can be called upon as a 'such small little occassion'. Then, how do we make judgements ?
No judgements. Still stand by my words. Speaking slot in an ‘informal meetup’ that is attended by a small set of people is smaller than a formal talk in a formal event. But then, many Wikimedians whose talks and workshops get selected at Wikimania don’t get a chance to attend Wikimania in the first place for various reasons.
I would like to hear and learn more about what calls this an informal
meetup. Just because it is an Affiliate Meetup, it begins to hold little relevance. I am not of this opinion. This is the first time Wikimedia India person was called to speak and so much controversy over it. While the International Mailing List largely calls this issue 'not-required', our very own Indians have an issue with it.
I would like to place on record, when Wikimedia India had funds, the Chapter annual plans endorsed by community stated one individual from the community and one executive commitee member. But the Chapter stayed firm in recognising the importance of the community and used to sponser both spots to its community members.
On an invitation, executive commitee member visited and so much issues.
Through reports, learning patterns, minutes of the meeting etc. In fact, we
all such contemplate on the reports and learning patterns as found on the Meta Page. It clearly states how this agenda would be further worked upon and then taken up in the next meeting. We all should give suggestions. Thank You, Subhashish for bringing up the issue of reporting.
Also, Subhashish, now that you have appropriate bandwidth, I believe refelctions on the Bengaluru meetup can be done.
I never said I have the appropriate bandwidth now. :) In fact, I’m trying to reflect on something that is recent - Wikimania - with the community. The Bangalore meeting is no longer a priority for me at the moment. I shared the notes with the community right after the meeting.
Yes ! You did not said so. I apologise for that. Since you were voicing over the Internet I though so. Sorry Agian, about that. Thank You for recognising that Bengaluru meeting is no longer a priority. Being a party to one episode and simultaneously voicing your concerns on another episode. I am confused on this.
Don't mind but can you please share relevant links
I thought I shared the fact that I had shared the discussions with my own community.
It would be a great learning experience for delegrates attending next year Wikimedia Conference. :) . Please Note : No Attempts to deviate from the topic.
It’s clearly deviating from the main topic. Better to start a new thread instead.
Okay. Your Concerns Understood.
Also, I personally think that if a question is directed towards an organization, it’s better to wait for sometime until they get back. We, as a community, have quite some time now until next Wikimania to set a better standard and fix if something is broken. :)
Of Course ! Both Wikimedia India and CIS-A2K are responsive and this is a welcome step. I would like to bring to attention, once the Wikimedia India Program Director had initiated an idea that particular volunteer to attend only two Wikimania and in turn leave space for other volunteers.
It was a suggestion from Ravi and not something set in stone.
Let's not take names. I said myself it is an idea.
Some of our community members have been visiting Wikimania like from Hong Kong Wikimania in 2013, United Kingdom Wikimania in 2014, Mexico Wikimania in 2015, Italy Wikimania in 2016, Canadan Wikimania in 2017 and now South Afrcia.
What’s the point here? Wikimedians from India are a subset of a much larger community and there are Wikimedians who have attended all the Wikimanias. Where you’re going with this statement?
I am sorry for if this has hurt you down. Of Course ! You are free to
attend All Wikimania's.
This is just a suggestion floated since the idea of next year Wikimania is discussed. Wikimedia Projects are about the art of giving and making space for other volunteers could just be one step.
Still not sure. I don’t remember very well but I probably will check again from the archives - Phoebe shared a long note earlier. If one Wikimedian from India does not apply for a scholarship it doesn’t mean that another Wikimedian from India would receive it. Not sure if it works that way.
A Global Village.
A2K providing support to the community (Wikimedia India included) in general is a good practice. Maybe this is the right time for the community to come forward to share what they feel should be the right way (or ways) A2K could follow while supporting someone from Wikimedia India. The way they support the individual Wikimedians (from the scholarship waitlist) seems fairly simple and straightforward. Supporting WMIN lies in a grey area because one individual from 7 people gets selected. The consensus process involved in that process need to be more transparent.
Yes ! Definitely. Transparency is the key. I am glad that CIS-A2K stood firm in apologising. This is a very welcome step. However as pointed out in my previous mail, supporting a scholarship reciepient in waiting and a speaker are two different subjects. I am not sure if judgements such as 'grey areas' should be made but Yes it calls for a discussion on how things should work upon.
The consensus process is also something that calls for a discussion. From informing the team members to taking consensus, the community's will on this should be recorded with the Chapter. It is nice to hear that EC was copied in the request mail and aderance to transparecy is being made.
Subhashish
P.S : I may be slow in responses to future mails for the next 6 days. I am no travel.
Abhinav
On Aug 5, 2018, at 2:27 PM, Bodhisattwa Mandal < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
I was expecting a reply from WMIN.
Thanks, Bodhisattwa
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 14:25 Abhinav srivastava, abhinav619@gmail.com wrote:
Hello Bodhisattva,
Please allow me to respond to your confusions. Responses in line.
Again, as stated in my first mail on the thread, you are making too many value-judgments with un-friendly tone.
On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 12:27 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single word.
My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to make it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
- Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to
the main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal meetups, there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, if one steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the meetup, then he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. Same principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true, everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.
If you check the agenda section, WMIN President gave a talk on Conflict Resolution, this is followed my summary in the notes. When there are so many conflicts in Wikimedia communities across the globle, someone from India is invited to put this theories towards resolution. This is a welcome step. From Notes to his Summary Talk to how this will be carried forward for future course, every thing is documented.
He did not simply attend the meeting as a participant or representing Wikimedia India, he was a lead on the 3rd point of the Agenda which is Conflcit Resolution. Everything on it is documented.
- I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of
chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you provide the documentation of his invitation?
[1] https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018
I am sure when Wikimedia India President is invited to give a talk on a defined Agenda, 'Conflict Resolution' and CIS-A2K is approving his request, he must on record have recieved an invitation.
It cannot be that without an invitation someone would travel so far. Also, please remember, unlike WMF staff or CIS-A2K, when someone from Wikimedia India has to travel, he has to forgoe his personal paid holidays. WMF staff or CIS-A2K travel abroad calling it 'On Work'.
- As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already
there were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went there with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation is not at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the informal meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they considered unfit or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?
This is about merit of the particular individual. This has nothing to do with the other Two EC.
Secondly, stating this again, he didn't travel simply to attend the meeting, he was given a set agenda to speak that is 'Conflict Resolution'. It was a subject of one's personal merit on which the organising committee invited him, this cannot be passed to other members of the same affiliate.
- Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same.
Whereas Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So, sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend the conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain that?
I do not think that if Wikimedia India President didn't go someone else would have been promoted. CIS-A2K should give a clarification on this.
Simply stating it once again, he didn't just travel to attend the conference, he was a speaker. This is entirely a different subject.
- Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend
the conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because Rahul is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?
In response to statement 4.
I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also, I hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't take it personally.
Waiting for your detailed reply,
Bodhisattwa
Additional Comment : When someone India is selected or rather invited to give talk in an attempt to resolve the global problem. For me, this is a welcome step.
I am sorry but again I find you to harsh towards the India Chapter. This is my personal observation.
Abhinav
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 11:08 Yohann Thomas, yohannvt@gmail.com wrote:
(sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)
Hi Bodhi
I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want, I can give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions.
//In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was *invited* to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_20...
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal. //
Regards, Yohann Thomas Secretary Wikimedia India
On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 18:33 Bodhisattwa Mandal, < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Yohann, > > Thanks for your mail. > > If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that > many participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the > meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the > meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary > of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any > affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in > that conference, he can represent the affiliate. > > In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya > Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on > behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge > amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where > his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members > unfit to attend such meeting? > > Waiting for your reply, > Bodhisattwa > > > On 3 Aug 2018 6:05 pm, "Yohann Thomas" yohannvt@gmail.com wrote: > > Dear Bodhi & other community members > > First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia > India is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion > on any topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid > volunteers & have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, > there was a delay in drafting a reply. > > As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run > organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards > the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user > groups) in their volunteer roles. > > Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't > financially independent & is still dependent on external funding which is > fraught with regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA. > > Having said that, many community members juggle their different > roles in community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional > roles to attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers > around the world. > In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier > attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & > then subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's > meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below. > > > https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_20... > > With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund > its trip & they accepted his proposal. > > Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want > to appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in > relation to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter > before his term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on > different issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory > hurdles. I wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter > is going through a difficult time. > > Regards, > Yohann Thomas > Secretary > Wikimedia India > > ---- > On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, < > bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in >> Cape Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question >> is why was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from >> India who were in the waiting list. >> >> He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The >> meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and >> already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the >> meeting. >> >> To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money. >> >> Thanks, >> Bodhisattwa >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >> > > _______________________________________________
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Subhashish
On Aug 5, 2018, at 8:40 PM, Abhinav srivastava abhinav619@gmail.com wrote:
Hello Bodhisattwa,
I won't be available from tomorrow onwards as stated in my previous mail. I would like to reply to Subhashish, this evening.
I am a bit surprised because of I when I wrote a clarification you simply discarded and wrote, "Let WMIN reply". As advised to you on Wikimania mailing list, it would have been better if you had raised these directly with the EC. Since it is on a public mailing list, I am free to voice my opinion.
Responses to Subhashish in line.
On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 8:13 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com wrote: Hi Abhinav,
Please stop diverting the topic. If those other discussions are important for you, please start separate new threads. My questions were directed to WMIN, please let them respond.
Thanks, Bodhisattwa
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 19:55 Subhashish Panigrahi, psubhashish@gmail.com wrote:
Subhashish
On Aug 5, 2018, at 7:06 PM, Abhinav srivastava abhinav619@gmail.com wrote:
Hello Subhashish,
I would put a few of my reflections. Responses in line.
On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 6:15 PM Subhashish Panigrahi psubhashish@gmail.com wrote: Just to clarify, my responses below are not about Rahul at all but in general -
Yes ! The issue is much larger.
What Bodhi wrote earlier makes sense, “participation for chairpersons meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup”. A Wikimania participant gets to attend many such informal meetups, and I’d like to believe that they certainly add value to the movement. But participation in such small little occasion (not small as less worthy but small as compared to a large formal event) does not really justify a 3-4 day-long travel which affects one’s personal/work life (as you rightly put it).
I believe judgements should only be made based on objectivity. I am not too sure if being a speaker on a global platform can be called upon as a 'such small little occassion'. Then, how do we make judgements ?
No judgements. Still stand by my words. Speaking slot in an ‘informal meetup’ that is attended by a small set of people is smaller than a formal talk in a formal event. But then, many Wikimedians whose talks and workshops get selected at Wikimania don’t get a chance to attend Wikimania in the first place for various reasons.
I would like to hear and learn more about what calls this an informal meetup.
Something that is not in the main Wikimania schedule as an open event for all during the three days during the scheduled sessions. Being in a physical space gives communities an opportunity to get together and discuss. It’s no less valuable though. But arguing that someone’s travel is valid for participation in one such meeting is a bit too much.
Just because it is an Affiliate Meetup, it begins to hold little relevance. I am not of this opinion.
This is the first time Wikimedia India person was called to speak and so much controversy over it. While the International Mailing List largely calls this issue 'not-required', our very own Indians have an issue with it.
I would like to place on record, when Wikimedia India had funds, the Chapter annual plans endorsed by community stated one individual from the community and one executive commitee member. But the Chapter stayed firm in recognising the importance of the community and used to sponser both spots to its community members.
On an invitation, executive commitee member visited and so much issues.
Through reports, learning patterns, minutes of the meeting etc. In fact, we all such contemplate on the reports and learning patterns as found on the Meta Page. It clearly states how this agenda would be further worked upon and then taken up in the next meeting. We all should give suggestions. Thank You, Subhashish for bringing up the issue of reporting.
Also, Subhashish, now that you have appropriate bandwidth, I believe refelctions on the Bengaluru meetup can be done.
I never said I have the appropriate bandwidth now. :) In fact, I’m trying to reflect on something that is recent - Wikimania - with the community. The Bangalore meeting is no longer a priority for me at the moment. I shared the notes with the community right after the meeting.
Yes ! You did not said so. I apologise for that. Since you were voicing over the Internet I though so. Sorry Agian, about that. Thank You for recognising that Bengaluru meeting is no longer a priority. Being a party to one episode and simultaneously voicing your concerns on another episode. I am confused on this.
I was a participant. There was an Etherpad (I can search it when online from computer but others who were there in the meeting can fill in if I get back late).
Don't mind but can you please share relevant links
I shared the Etherpad link with the community. Many are active on social media and I pinged them on chat. There was nothing big for Odia but there were some that were relevant.
Again, the Bangalore discussion is irrelevant here.
I thought I shared the fact that I had shared the discussions with my own community.
It would be a great learning experience for delegrates attending next year Wikimedia Conference. :) . Please Note : No Attempts to deviate from the topic.
It’s clearly deviating from the main topic. Better to start a new thread instead.
Okay. Your Concerns Understood.
Also, I personally think that if a question is directed towards an organization, it’s better to wait for sometime until they get back. We, as a community, have quite some time now until next Wikimania to set a better standard and fix if something is broken. :)
Of Course ! Both Wikimedia India and CIS-A2K are responsive and this is a welcome step. I would like to bring to attention, once the Wikimedia India Program Director had initiated an idea that particular volunteer to attend only two Wikimania and in turn leave space for other volunteers.
It was a suggestion from Ravi and not something set in stone.
Let's not take names. I said myself it is an idea.
Some of our community members have been visiting Wikimania like from Hong Kong Wikimania in 2013, United Kingdom Wikimania in 2014, Mexico Wikimania in 2015, Italy Wikimania in 2016, Canadan Wikimania in 2017 and now South Afrcia.
What’s the point here? Wikimedians from India are a subset of a much larger community and there are Wikimedians who have attended all the Wikimanias. Where you’re going with this statement?
I am sorry for if this has hurt you down. Of Course ! You are free to attend All Wikimania's.
Why should it hurt me? :)
No, it doesn’t, and I’m open to discuss about what value I brought back to the community after participating in Wikimania.
Sorry to say this, but this is really offtopic discussion to drag towards one person when we should be discussing about community and organizational policies. I might stop replying back if you keep inserting threads that are dragging the discussion to something else. I can send you offlist what I’m doing after coming back from Wikimania. One of them is I have recorded and uploaded about 1900 audio recording — after attending a session on Lingua Libre — on Commons, and all those recordings will make their way to Wiktionary.
I’m certainly free as a Wikimedian to decide whether I apply for a scholarship or not. :)
This is just a suggestion floated since the idea of next year Wikimania is discussed. Wikimedia Projects are about the art of giving and making space for other volunteers could just be one step.
Still not sure. I don’t remember very well but I probably will check again from the archives - Phoebe shared a long note earlier. If one Wikimedian from India does not apply for a scholarship it doesn’t mean that another Wikimedian from India would receive it. Not sure if it works that way.
A Global Village.
This itself is a different discussion. Many deserving Wikimedians that I personally know don’t apply and don’t take help when offered. There is a lot of scope to support Wikimedians who are not native English speakers or are not well versed.
Let’s just acknowledge the fact that there are way too many things. It’s important to discuss one thing at a time.
A2K providing support to the community (Wikimedia India included) in general is a good practice. Maybe this is the right time for the community to come forward to share what they feel should be the right way (or ways) A2K could follow while supporting someone from Wikimedia India. The way they support the individual Wikimedians (from the scholarship waitlist) seems fairly simple and straightforward. Supporting WMIN lies in a grey area because one individual from 7 people gets selected. The consensus process involved in that process need to be more transparent.
Yes ! Definitely. Transparency is the key. I am glad that CIS-A2K stood firm in apologising. This is a very welcome step. However as pointed out in my previous mail, supporting a scholarship reciepient in waiting and a speaker are two different subjects. I am not sure if judgements such as 'grey areas' should be made but Yes it calls for a discussion on how things should work upon.
The consensus process is also something that calls for a discussion. From informing the team members to taking consensus, the community's will on this should be recorded with the Chapter. It is nice to hear that EC was copied in the request mail and aderance to transparecy is being made.
Subhashish
P.S : I may be slow in responses to future mails for the next 6 days. I am no travel.
Abhinav
On Aug 5, 2018, at 2:27 PM, Bodhisattwa Mandal bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com wrote:
I was expecting a reply from WMIN.
Thanks, Bodhisattwa
> On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 14:25 Abhinav srivastava, abhinav619@gmail.com wrote: > Hello Bodhisattva, > > Please allow me to respond to your confusions. Responses in line. > > Again, as stated in my first mail on the thread, you are making too many value-judgments with un-friendly tone. > > > > > >> On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 12:27 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com wrote: >> Hi Yohann, >> >> Thanks for your reply, much appreciated. >> >> >> I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single word. >> >> My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to make it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective. >> >> 1) Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to the main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal meetups, there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, if one steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the meetup, then he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. Same principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true, everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year. > > If you check the agenda section, WMIN President gave a talk on Conflict Resolution, this is followed my summary in the notes. When there are so many conflicts in Wikimedia communities across the globle, someone from India is invited to put this theories towards resolution. This is a welcome step. From Notes to his Summary Talk to how this will be carried forward for future course, every thing is documented. > > He did not simply attend the meeting as a participant or representing Wikimedia India, he was a lead on the 3rd point of the Agenda which is Conflcit Resolution. Everything on it is documented. > >> >> 2) I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you provide the documentation of his invitation? >> >> [1] https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018 >> [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018 >> > I am sure when Wikimedia India President is invited to give a talk on a defined Agenda, 'Conflict Resolution' and CIS-A2K is approving his request, he must on record have recieved an invitation. > > It cannot be that without an invitation someone would travel so far. Also, please remember, unlike WMF staff or CIS-A2K, when someone from Wikimedia India has to travel, he has to forgoe his personal paid holidays. WMF staff or CIS-A2K travel abroad calling it 'On Work'. >> 3) As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already there were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went there with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation is not at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the informal meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they considered unfit or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so? >> > This is about merit of the particular individual. This has nothing to do with the other Two EC. > > Secondly, stating this again, he didn't travel simply to attend the meeting, he was given a set agenda to speak that is 'Conflict Resolution'. It was a subject of one's personal merit on which the organising committee invited him, this cannot be passed to other members of the same affiliate. >> 4) Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same. Whereas Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So, sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend the conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain that? >> > I do not think that if Wikimedia India President didn't go someone else would have been promoted. CIS-A2K should give a clarification on this. > > Simply stating it once again, he didn't just travel to attend the conference, he was a speaker. This is entirely a different subject. >> 5) Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend the conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because Rahul is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer? >> > In response to statement 4. >> >> I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also, I hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't take it personally. >> >> Waiting for your detailed reply, >> >> Bodhisattwa >> > > Additional Comment : When someone India is selected or rather invited to give talk in an attempt to resolve the global problem. For me, this is a welcome step. > > I am sorry but again I find you to harsh towards the India Chapter. This is my personal observation. > > Abhinav > >> >>> On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 11:08 Yohann Thomas, yohannvt@gmail.com wrote: >>> (sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule) >>> >>> Hi Bodhi >>> >>> I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want, I can give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions. >>> >>> //In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below. >>> >>> https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_20... >>> >>> With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal. // >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> Yohann Thomas >>> Secretary >>> Wikimedia India >>> >>> >>>> On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 18:33 Bodhisattwa Mandal, bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com wrote: >>>> Hi Yohann, >>>> >>>> Thanks for your mail. >>>> >>>> If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that many participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in that conference, he can represent the affiliate. >>>> >>>> In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members unfit to attend such meeting? >>>> >>>> Waiting for your reply, >>>> Bodhisattwa >>>> >>>> >>>> On 3 Aug 2018 6:05 pm, "Yohann Thomas" yohannvt@gmail.com wrote: >>>> Dear Bodhi & other community members >>>> >>>> First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia India is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion on any topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid volunteers & have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, there was a delay in drafting a reply. >>>> >>>> As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user groups) in their volunteer roles. >>>> >>>> Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't financially independent & is still dependent on external funding which is fraught with regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA. >>>> >>>> Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles in community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional roles to attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers around the world. >>>> In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below. >>>> >>>> https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_20... >>>> >>>> With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal. >>>> >>>> Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want to appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in relation to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter before his term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on different issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory hurdles. I wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter is going through a difficult time. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Yohann Thomas >>>> Secretary >>>> Wikimedia India >>>> >>>> ---- >>>>> On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com wrote: >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India who were in the waiting list. >>>>> >>>>> He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the meeting. >>>>> >>>>> To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Bodhisattwa >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >>>>> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l > _______________________________________________ > Wikimediaindia-l mailing list > Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
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Hi everyone, First of all, why is everyone else other than the one being questioned addressing the mail? As Abhinav said, If this is about voicing our opinions and concerns on a public mailing list, I’d like to bring something to your notice and seek your opinions on the same. In 2017, I and Stalinjeet went to Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. There we had an informal SAARC MEETUP and later we were all in the Strategy Discussion Team (as team no. 17), we discussed the issues SAARC Communities are facing and the kind of practices which might work well for the growth of our communities. Based on the discussions and inputs from the members from different communities (SAARC as well as global communities), we prepared a report and proposed the same for presentation at Wikimania, 2017. The presentation was shortlisted, but as both of us were not selected for the scholarship, we had to withdraw our submission as we were not aware of any such funding assistance being offered by CIS-A2K. This is not a complaint but a question that is this financial assistance available only for some specific position holders or is open to all the Wikimedians? and If this assistance is being offered to the Wikimedians, why there was no formal notice about the same?
Hi Dr Manavpreet,
It is unfortunate that you couldn’t present. Yes ! Transparency and effective messaging that one can approach affiliates for grants, in cases has been lacking in our community. It is not about any office bearer, I am sure CIS would have been neutral in making this judgement.
Also, let’s take your SAARC idea ahead.
Is this your submission ? https://wikimania2017.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Past,_present_and_ Future_of_Wiki_Movement_in_Developing_countries:_A_SAARC_perspective
I am not sure because it says submission under review. For selected submissions you can find another category. Maybe, I am wrong on this one. The way they have designed and put out categories it is difficult to sort. It could be that you didn’t receive the scholarship hence they didn’t put a tick mark.
Dr Manavpreet Kaur, No special benefits for any office bearer. Your case should have been considered.
Abhinav
On Sunday, August 5, 2018, Dr. Manavpreet Kaur dr.manavpreetkaur@gmail.com wrote:
Hi everyone, First of all, why is everyone else other than the one being questioned addressing the mail? As Abhinav said, If this is about voicing our opinions and concerns on a public mailing list, I’d like to bring something to your notice and seek your opinions on the same. In 2017, I and Stalinjeet went to Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. There we had an informal SAARC MEETUP and later we were all in the Strategy Discussion Team (as team no. 17), we discussed the issues SAARC Communities are facing and the kind of practices which might work well for the growth of our communities. Based on the discussions and inputs from the members from different communities (SAARC as well as global communities), we prepared a report and proposed the same for presentation at Wikimania, 2017. The presentation was shortlisted, but as both of us were not selected for the scholarship, we had to withdraw our submission as we were not aware of any such funding assistance being offered by CIS-A2K. This is not a complaint but a question that is this financial assistance available only for some specific position holders or is open to all the Wikimedians? and If this assistance is being offered to the Wikimedians, why there was no formal notice about the same?
Hi Abhinav Thanks for the clarification. It’s not in other list because we emailed them about the scholarship status and requested to withdraw the submission. Again, this wasn’t a complaint, just a concern about lack of information on such financial assistance program. Anyhow, we had many other active Wikimedians in the group who are working on the plans and taking the movement ahead :) Thanks Manav
On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 at 12:26 AM, Abhinav srivastava abhinav619@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Dr Manavpreet,
It is unfortunate that you couldn’t present. Yes ! Transparency and effective messaging that one can approach affiliates for grants, in cases has been lacking in our community. It is not about any office bearer, I am sure CIS would have been neutral in making this judgement.
Also, let’s take your SAARC idea ahead.
Is this your submission ?
https://wikimania2017.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Past,_present_and_Futur...
I am not sure because it says submission under review. For selected submissions you can find another category. Maybe, I am wrong on this one. The way they have designed and put out categories it is difficult to sort. It could be that you didn’t receive the scholarship hence they didn’t put a tick mark.
Dr Manavpreet Kaur, No special benefits for any office bearer. Your case should have been considered.
Abhinav
On Sunday, August 5, 2018, Dr. Manavpreet Kaur < dr.manavpreetkaur@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi everyone, First of all, why is everyone else other than the one being questioned addressing the mail? As Abhinav said, If this is about voicing our opinions and concerns on a public mailing list, I’d like to bring something to your notice and seek your opinions on the same. In 2017, I and Stalinjeet went to Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. There we had an informal SAARC MEETUP and later we were all in the Strategy Discussion Team (as team no. 17), we discussed the issues SAARC Communities are facing and the kind of practices which might work well for the growth of our communities. Based on the discussions and inputs from the members from different communities (SAARC as well as global communities), we prepared a report and proposed the same for presentation at Wikimania, 2017. The presentation was shortlisted, but as both of us were not selected for the scholarship, we had to withdraw our submission as we were not aware of any such funding assistance being offered by CIS-A2K. This is not a complaint but a question that is this financial assistance available only for some specific position holders or is open to all the Wikimedians? and If this assistance is being offered to the Wikimedians, why there was no formal notice about the same?
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Dear Bodhi
I still feel, you haven't read my email word to word. I would request you to go by the 24 hr email rule (if not more).. which I personally do many times.
Pardon my grammar & also my line to line reply, as I'm relying on my phone.. Since I'm traveling..
I will again try to explain point wise (where ever possible) & try my best to clear all doubts.
1) Mr Rahul Deshmukh, did not visit Wikimania, on scholarship, or to simply attend a random meeting. He was invited to be one of the speakers. You can find this on the agenda of it, during Wikimania.. followed by notes which carry a description. The ‘Conflict Resolution’ theme on which he was a speaker. This is generally a very long topic, on which Wikimedia Affiliates intends to discuss and deliberate over a period of time. This theme would be subsequently carried forward in upcoming Chairpersons Meetup as well, as mentioned on the Meta.
If your memory serves you right.. During the Wiki Conference India 2016, where you were also one of the organizers (& the both of us deliberated on various topics quite extensively) , several community members who had not applied for the scholarship but had later approached CIS-A2K for the same were awarded appropriately.
CIS-A2K had later informed the community about this decision.
In good faith, we assumed that, CIS-A2K did not inform the community without having any specific interest in the exercise. Wikimedia India would also like to place on record, that it could have initiated the process of informing on its own. Wikimedia India would like to put on record, in times to come not only it would inform the community but also engage with its community members on decision making for such exercises.
2) Mr Rahul deshmukh had received an on record written invitation to attend the meeting and be a speaker on ‘Conflict Resolution’. The above said invitation was shown to CIS-A2K, when requesting them for travel assistance.
*I have not stated anywhere that he received an invitation during the Chairpersons meeting at WMCON18*. He had attended Wikimedia Conference 2018 & in it had participated in the movement strategy discussion. It was during the movement strategy discussion that he received the invitation.
3) The chapter has full faith and belief in all its board members in both, individual and collective levels. This invitation was to the particular individual based on his expertise in the chapter and in the movement. Chapter has never considered any of its board members unfit to represent it. Personally, I feel Bodhi, it is very unfair on your part, to even make such allegation that the chapter would even, consider such a scenario. A well wisher of the chapter would never make such comments.
4) The Chapter is not of an opinion that the community members should be deprived of scholarship. Wikimedia India would like to put emphasis that during its grant tenure, Wikimedia India used to provide two sponsorship to its community members & we value the joy, which a volunteer gets, when he is informed that, he is going to Wikimania.
However, in this scenario , none was deprived on anything. As I have repeatedly said, Mr Rahul Deshmukh was invited to attend and give a talk on conflict resolution. Since it was about the affiliates & partnerships amongst them, the chapter approached another affiliate CIS-A2K and CCing the chapter board members
5) The Chapter does not make any distinction between its board members and its community members. Unlike CIS-A2K, Wikimedia India board members are unpaid volunteers, similar to its community members, who give their time & effort towards the community.
To Sum the entire email, the chapter has made a valuable learning, of engaging the community in a more effective way in the future.
Regards, Yohann Thomas Secretary Wikimedia India
P.S. - Neither your previous email, or any other email can affect our friendship, Bodhi .Our passion & commitment towards the movement, is what binds us :)
-------- On Sun 5 Aug, 2018, 12:27 Bodhisattwa Mandal, bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single word.
My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to make it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
- Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to the
main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal meetups, there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, if one steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the meetup, then he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. Same principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true, everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.
- I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of
chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you provide the documentation of his invitation?
[1] https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018
- As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already there
were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went there with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation is not at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the informal meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they considered unfit or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?
- Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same. Whereas
Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So, sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend the conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain that?
- Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend the
conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because Rahul is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?
I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also, I hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't take it personally.
Waiting for your detailed reply,
Bodhisattwa
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 11:08 Yohann Thomas, yohannvt@gmail.com wrote:
(sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)
Hi Bodhi
I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want, I can give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions.
//In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was *invited* to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_20...
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal. //
Regards, Yohann Thomas Secretary Wikimedia India
On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 18:33 Bodhisattwa Mandal, < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your mail.
If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that many participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in that conference, he can represent the affiliate.
In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members unfit to attend such meeting?
Waiting for your reply, Bodhisattwa
On 3 Aug 2018 6:05 pm, "Yohann Thomas" yohannvt@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Bodhi & other community members
First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia India is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion on any topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid volunteers & have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, there was a delay in drafting a reply.
As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user groups) in their volunteer roles.
Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't financially independent & is still dependent on external funding which is fraught with regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.
Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles in community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional roles to attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers around the world. In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_20...
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal.
Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want to appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in relation to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter before his term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on different issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory hurdles. I wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter is going through a difficult time.
Regards, Yohann Thomas Secretary Wikimedia India
On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India who were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks, Bodhisattwa _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Hello, I edit on Telugu Wikipedia & Wikidata. I generally only read and not write on mails. Why so much negativity taking place? Earlier it was about reports. When reports are there the issue is about meeting was not important. Let us is good faith assume that note has been taken and transparency in future will be maintained.
Thanks, జయంతిలాల్
On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 12:42 PM, Yohann Thomas yohannvt@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Bodhi
I still feel, you haven't read my email word to word. I would request you to go by the 24 hr email rule (if not more).. which I personally do many times.
Pardon my grammar & also my line to line reply, as I'm relying on my phone.. Since I'm traveling..
I will again try to explain point wise (where ever possible) & try my best to clear all doubts.
- Mr Rahul Deshmukh, did not visit Wikimania, on scholarship, or to
simply attend a random meeting. He was invited to be one of the speakers. You can find this on the agenda of it, during Wikimania.. followed by notes which carry a description. The ‘Conflict Resolution’ theme on which he was a speaker. This is generally a very long topic, on which Wikimedia Affiliates intends to discuss and deliberate over a period of time. This theme would be subsequently carried forward in upcoming Chairpersons Meetup as well, as mentioned on the Meta.
If your memory serves you right.. During the Wiki Conference India 2016, where you were also one of the organizers (& the both of us deliberated on various topics quite extensively) , several community members who had not applied for the scholarship but had later approached CIS-A2K for the same were awarded appropriately.
CIS-A2K had later informed the community about this decision.
In good faith, we assumed that, CIS-A2K did not inform the community without having any specific interest in the exercise. Wikimedia India would also like to place on record, that it could have initiated the process of informing on its own. Wikimedia India would like to put on record, in times to come not only it would inform the community but also engage with its community members on decision making for such exercises.
- Mr Rahul deshmukh had received an on record written invitation to
attend the meeting and be a speaker on ‘Conflict Resolution’. The above said invitation was shown to CIS-A2K, when requesting them for travel assistance.
*I have not stated anywhere that he received an invitation during the Chairpersons meeting at WMCON18*. He had attended Wikimedia Conference 2018 & in it had participated in the movement strategy discussion. It was during the movement strategy discussion that he received the invitation.
- The chapter has full faith and belief in all its board members
in both, individual and collective levels. This invitation was to the particular individual based on his expertise in the chapter and in the movement. Chapter has never considered any of its board members unfit to represent it. Personally, I feel Bodhi, it is very unfair on your part, to even make such allegation that the chapter would even, consider such a scenario. A well wisher of the chapter would never make such comments.
- The Chapter is not of an opinion that the community members should be
deprived of scholarship. Wikimedia India would like to put emphasis that during its grant tenure, Wikimedia India used to provide two sponsorship to its community members & we value the joy, which a volunteer gets, when he is informed that, he is going to Wikimania.
However, in this scenario , none was deprived on anything. As I have repeatedly said, Mr Rahul Deshmukh was invited to attend and give a talk on conflict resolution. Since it was about the affiliates & partnerships amongst them, the chapter approached another affiliate CIS-A2K and CCing the chapter board members
- The Chapter does not make any distinction between its board members and
its community members. Unlike CIS-A2K, Wikimedia India board members are unpaid volunteers, similar to its community members, who give their time & effort towards the community.
To Sum the entire email, the chapter has made a valuable learning, of engaging the community in a more effective way in the future.
Regards, Yohann Thomas Secretary Wikimedia India
P.S. - Neither your previous email, or any other email can affect our friendship, Bodhi .Our passion & commitment towards the movement, is what binds us :)
On Sun 5 Aug, 2018, 12:27 Bodhisattwa Mandal, bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single word.
My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to make it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
- Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to the
main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal meetups, there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, if one steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the meetup, then he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. Same principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true, everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.
- I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of
chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you provide the documentation of his invitation?
[1] https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_ April_20%2C_2018
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_ Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018
- As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already
there were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went there with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation is not at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the informal meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they considered unfit or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?
- Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same. Whereas
Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So, sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend the conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain that?
- Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend the
conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because Rahul is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?
I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also, I hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't take it personally.
Waiting for your detailed reply,
Bodhisattwa
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 11:08 Yohann Thomas, yohannvt@gmail.com wrote:
(sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)
Hi Bodhi
I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want, I can give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions.
//In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was *invited* to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_ meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal. //
Regards, Yohann Thomas Secretary Wikimedia India
On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 18:33 Bodhisattwa Mandal, < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your mail.
If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that many participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in that conference, he can represent the affiliate.
In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members unfit to attend such meeting?
Waiting for your reply, Bodhisattwa
On 3 Aug 2018 6:05 pm, "Yohann Thomas" yohannvt@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Bodhi & other community members
First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia India is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion on any topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid volunteers & have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, there was a delay in drafting a reply.
As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user groups) in their volunteer roles.
Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't financially independent & is still dependent on external funding which is fraught with regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.
Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles in community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional roles to attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers around the world. In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_ meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal.
Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want to appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in relation to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter before his term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on different issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory hurdles. I wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter is going through a difficult time.
Regards, Yohann Thomas Secretary Wikimedia India
On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India who were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks, Bodhisattwa _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for the detailed reply. Much appreciated.
So, to summarize your mail, WMIN president got written invitation to speak in the informal meeting of chairpersons during Wikimania and WMIN officially requested CIS-A2K to fund him to attend the meeting without depriving any Wikimedian in waiting list for scholarship and CIS-A2K funded him to attend the entire Wikimania. Right? So, according to WMIN, this was a valid request from WMIN to CIS-A2K, I presume, as you are defending about what WMIN did.
Assuming good faith, I am believing all your words. Still, I don't understand, why only 1 volunteer in the waiting list attended the conference and next 2 in the queue were not funded. I am not talking about Jayanta Nath and Aliva Sahoo, they both declined, I am talking about the next 2 people in the queue.
Also, can you please share the letter of invitation, so that we know, who sent the letter and everything becomes transparent.
By the way, I never said, chairpersons meeting was any random meeting, I said it was informal meeting, like stewards meeting, asian meeting etc. Informal means which is not related to Wikimania official program, there is a difference between random and informal.
Echoing Manavpreet's valid query, can a Wikimedia volunteer with no attachment to the chapter get similar special treatment of getting full funds to attend Wikimania even if he/she doesn't get a Wikimania scholarship but his/her presentation is selected and/or he/she gets official invitation to speak in an informal meeting during Wikimania. Now, from your answer, I hope there is no doubt about that volunteers will receive such special treatment, because after all, the chapter does not distinguish between board members and the volunteer community and we have a prior example of WMIN president to cite. That is a great news for the volunteer community as it opens up new opportunity for the communities to participate in the conference. Alas! this we didn't knew earlier, we could have sent more Wikimedians this year, but it's ok, the community will be informed for next year and I hope, more such requests will be sent to WMIN and CIS-A2K from volunteers in future. Of course, we will keep everything open and transparent, unlike this time.
Thanks, Bodhisattwa
On Wed, 8 Aug 2018, 12:42 Yohann Thomas, yohannvt@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Bodhi
I still feel, you haven't read my email word to word. I would request you to go by the 24 hr email rule (if not more).. which I personally do many times.
Pardon my grammar & also my line to line reply, as I'm relying on my phone.. Since I'm traveling..
I will again try to explain point wise (where ever possible) & try my best to clear all doubts.
- Mr Rahul Deshmukh, did not visit Wikimania, on scholarship, or to
simply attend a random meeting. He was invited to be one of the speakers. You can find this on the agenda of it, during Wikimania.. followed by notes which carry a description. The ‘Conflict Resolution’ theme on which he was a speaker. This is generally a very long topic, on which Wikimedia Affiliates intends to discuss and deliberate over a period of time. This theme would be subsequently carried forward in upcoming Chairpersons Meetup as well, as mentioned on the Meta.
If your memory serves you right.. During the Wiki Conference India 2016, where you were also one of the organizers (& the both of us deliberated on various topics quite extensively) , several community members who had not applied for the scholarship but had later approached CIS-A2K for the same were awarded appropriately.
CIS-A2K had later informed the community about this decision.
In good faith, we assumed that, CIS-A2K did not inform the community without having any specific interest in the exercise. Wikimedia India would also like to place on record, that it could have initiated the process of informing on its own. Wikimedia India would like to put on record, in times to come not only it would inform the community but also engage with its community members on decision making for such exercises.
- Mr Rahul deshmukh had received an on record written invitation to
attend the meeting and be a speaker on ‘Conflict Resolution’. The above said invitation was shown to CIS-A2K, when requesting them for travel assistance.
*I have not stated anywhere that he received an invitation during the Chairpersons meeting at WMCON18*. He had attended Wikimedia Conference 2018 & in it had participated in the movement strategy discussion. It was during the movement strategy discussion that he received the invitation.
- The chapter has full faith and belief in all its board members
in both, individual and collective levels. This invitation was to the particular individual based on his expertise in the chapter and in the movement. Chapter has never considered any of its board members unfit to represent it. Personally, I feel Bodhi, it is very unfair on your part, to even make such allegation that the chapter would even, consider such a scenario. A well wisher of the chapter would never make such comments.
- The Chapter is not of an opinion that the community members should be
deprived of scholarship. Wikimedia India would like to put emphasis that during its grant tenure, Wikimedia India used to provide two sponsorship to its community members & we value the joy, which a volunteer gets, when he is informed that, he is going to Wikimania.
However, in this scenario , none was deprived on anything. As I have repeatedly said, Mr Rahul Deshmukh was invited to attend and give a talk on conflict resolution. Since it was about the affiliates & partnerships amongst them, the chapter approached another affiliate CIS-A2K and CCing the chapter board members
- The Chapter does not make any distinction between its board members and
its community members. Unlike CIS-A2K, Wikimedia India board members are unpaid volunteers, similar to its community members, who give their time & effort towards the community.
To Sum the entire email, the chapter has made a valuable learning, of engaging the community in a more effective way in the future.
Regards, Yohann Thomas Secretary Wikimedia India
P.S. - Neither your previous email, or any other email can affect our friendship, Bodhi .Our passion & commitment towards the movement, is what binds us :)
On Sun 5 Aug, 2018, 12:27 Bodhisattwa Mandal, bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single word.
My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to make it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
- Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to the
main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal meetups, there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, if one steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the meetup, then he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. Same principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true, everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.
- I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of
chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you provide the documentation of his invitation?
[1] https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018
- As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already
there were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went there with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation is not at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the informal meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they considered unfit or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?
- Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same. Whereas
Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So, sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend the conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain that?
- Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend the
conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because Rahul is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?
I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also, I hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't take it personally.
Waiting for your detailed reply,
Bodhisattwa
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 11:08 Yohann Thomas, yohannvt@gmail.com wrote:
(sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)
Hi Bodhi
I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want, I can give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions.
//In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was *invited* to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_20...
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal. //
Regards, Yohann Thomas Secretary Wikimedia India
On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 18:33 Bodhisattwa Mandal, < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your mail.
If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that many participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in that conference, he can represent the affiliate.
In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members unfit to attend such meeting?
Waiting for your reply, Bodhisattwa
On 3 Aug 2018 6:05 pm, "Yohann Thomas" yohannvt@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Bodhi & other community members
First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia India is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion on any topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid volunteers & have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, there was a delay in drafting a reply.
As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user groups) in their volunteer roles.
Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't financially independent & is still dependent on external funding which is fraught with regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.
Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles in community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional roles to attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers around the world. In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_20...
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal.
Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want to appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in relation to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter before his term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on different issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory hurdles. I wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter is going through a difficult time.
Regards, Yohann Thomas Secretary Wikimedia India
On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India who were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks, Bodhisattwa _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Hi Yohann,
As I and Satdeep requested, it would be great if you share the invitation letter with all of us, so that we can know who invited WMIN president to attend the meeting.
Thanks, Bodhisattwa
On Wed, 8 Aug 2018, 14:58 Bodhisattwa Mandal, bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for the detailed reply. Much appreciated.
So, to summarize your mail, WMIN president got written invitation to speak in the informal meeting of chairpersons during Wikimania and WMIN officially requested CIS-A2K to fund him to attend the meeting without depriving any Wikimedian in waiting list for scholarship and CIS-A2K funded him to attend the entire Wikimania. Right? So, according to WMIN, this was a valid request from WMIN to CIS-A2K, I presume, as you are defending about what WMIN did.
Assuming good faith, I am believing all your words. Still, I don't understand, why only 1 volunteer in the waiting list attended the conference and next 2 in the queue were not funded. I am not talking about Jayanta Nath and Aliva Sahoo, they both declined, I am talking about the next 2 people in the queue.
Also, can you please share the letter of invitation, so that we know, who sent the letter and everything becomes transparent.
By the way, I never said, chairpersons meeting was any random meeting, I said it was informal meeting, like stewards meeting, asian meeting etc. Informal means which is not related to Wikimania official program, there is a difference between random and informal.
Echoing Manavpreet's valid query, can a Wikimedia volunteer with no attachment to the chapter get similar special treatment of getting full funds to attend Wikimania even if he/she doesn't get a Wikimania scholarship but his/her presentation is selected and/or he/she gets official invitation to speak in an informal meeting during Wikimania. Now, from your answer, I hope there is no doubt about that volunteers will receive such special treatment, because after all, the chapter does not distinguish between board members and the volunteer community and we have a prior example of WMIN president to cite. That is a great news for the volunteer community as it opens up new opportunity for the communities to participate in the conference. Alas! this we didn't knew earlier, we could have sent more Wikimedians this year, but it's ok, the community will be informed for next year and I hope, more such requests will be sent to WMIN and CIS-A2K from volunteers in future. Of course, we will keep everything open and transparent, unlike this time.
Thanks, Bodhisattwa
On Wed, 8 Aug 2018, 12:42 Yohann Thomas, yohannvt@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Bodhi
I still feel, you haven't read my email word to word. I would request you to go by the 24 hr email rule (if not more).. which I personally do many times.
Pardon my grammar & also my line to line reply, as I'm relying on my phone.. Since I'm traveling..
I will again try to explain point wise (where ever possible) & try my best to clear all doubts.
- Mr Rahul Deshmukh, did not visit Wikimania, on scholarship, or to
simply attend a random meeting. He was invited to be one of the speakers. You can find this on the agenda of it, during Wikimania.. followed by notes which carry a description. The ‘Conflict Resolution’ theme on which he was a speaker. This is generally a very long topic, on which Wikimedia Affiliates intends to discuss and deliberate over a period of time. This theme would be subsequently carried forward in upcoming Chairpersons Meetup as well, as mentioned on the Meta.
If your memory serves you right.. During the Wiki Conference India 2016, where you were also one of the organizers (& the both of us deliberated on various topics quite extensively) , several community members who had not applied for the scholarship but had later approached CIS-A2K for the same were awarded appropriately.
CIS-A2K had later informed the community about this decision.
In good faith, we assumed that, CIS-A2K did not inform the community without having any specific interest in the exercise. Wikimedia India would also like to place on record, that it could have initiated the process of informing on its own. Wikimedia India would like to put on record, in times to come not only it would inform the community but also engage with its community members on decision making for such exercises.
- Mr Rahul deshmukh had received an on record written invitation to
attend the meeting and be a speaker on ‘Conflict Resolution’. The above said invitation was shown to CIS-A2K, when requesting them for travel assistance.
*I have not stated anywhere that he received an invitation during the Chairpersons meeting at WMCON18*. He had attended Wikimedia Conference 2018 & in it had participated in the movement strategy discussion. It was during the movement strategy discussion that he received the invitation.
- The chapter has full faith and belief in all its board members
in both, individual and collective levels. This invitation was to the particular individual based on his expertise in the chapter and in the movement. Chapter has never considered any of its board members unfit to represent it. Personally, I feel Bodhi, it is very unfair on your part, to even make such allegation that the chapter would even, consider such a scenario. A well wisher of the chapter would never make such comments.
- The Chapter is not of an opinion that the community members should
be deprived of scholarship. Wikimedia India would like to put emphasis that during its grant tenure, Wikimedia India used to provide two sponsorship to its community members & we value the joy, which a volunteer gets, when he is informed that, he is going to Wikimania.
However, in this scenario , none was deprived on anything. As I have repeatedly said, Mr Rahul Deshmukh was invited to attend and give a talk on conflict resolution. Since it was about the affiliates & partnerships amongst them, the chapter approached another affiliate CIS-A2K and CCing the chapter board members
- The Chapter does not make any distinction between its board members
and its community members. Unlike CIS-A2K, Wikimedia India board members are unpaid volunteers, similar to its community members, who give their time & effort towards the community.
To Sum the entire email, the chapter has made a valuable learning, of engaging the community in a more effective way in the future.
Regards, Yohann Thomas Secretary Wikimedia India
P.S. - Neither your previous email, or any other email can affect our friendship, Bodhi .Our passion & commitment towards the movement, is what binds us :)
On Sun 5 Aug, 2018, 12:27 Bodhisattwa Mandal, < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single word.
My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to make it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
- Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to
the main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal meetups, there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, if one steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the meetup, then he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. Same principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true, everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.
- I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of
chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you provide the documentation of his invitation?
[1] https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018
- As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already
there were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went there with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation is not at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the informal meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they considered unfit or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?
- Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same. Whereas
Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So, sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend the conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain that?
- Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend the
conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because Rahul is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?
I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also, I hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't take it personally.
Waiting for your detailed reply,
Bodhisattwa
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 11:08 Yohann Thomas, yohannvt@gmail.com wrote:
(sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)
Hi Bodhi
I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want, I can give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions.
//In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was *invited* to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_20...
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal. //
Regards, Yohann Thomas Secretary Wikimedia India
On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 18:33 Bodhisattwa Mandal, < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your mail.
If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that many participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in that conference, he can represent the affiliate.
In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members unfit to attend such meeting?
Waiting for your reply, Bodhisattwa
On 3 Aug 2018 6:05 pm, "Yohann Thomas" yohannvt@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Bodhi & other community members
First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia India is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion on any topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid volunteers & have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, there was a delay in drafting a reply.
As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user groups) in their volunteer roles.
Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't financially independent & is still dependent on external funding which is fraught with regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.
Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles in community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional roles to attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers around the world. In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_20...
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal.
Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want to appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in relation to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter before his term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on different issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory hurdles. I wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter is going through a difficult time.
Regards, Yohann Thomas Secretary Wikimedia India
On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India who were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks, Bodhisattwa _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Perhaps also helpful would be to hear some response from Mr. Deshmukh himself.
Rahul, I think the concerns raised here at least merit your attention, and it's been two weeks. I encourage you to show up and discuss the concerns -- ideally, with a forthright description of what did and didn't happen around your travel to Wikimania, and with a forward-looking perspective of what might change to prevent such concerns in the future.
Thank you.
A.
On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 7:06 AM, Bodhisattwa Mandal < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Yohann,
As I and Satdeep requested, it would be great if you share the invitation letter with all of us, so that we can know who invited WMIN president to attend the meeting.
Thanks, Bodhisattwa
On Wed, 8 Aug 2018, 14:58 Bodhisattwa Mandal, bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for the detailed reply. Much appreciated.
So, to summarize your mail, WMIN president got written invitation to speak in the informal meeting of chairpersons during Wikimania and WMIN officially requested CIS-A2K to fund him to attend the meeting without depriving any Wikimedian in waiting list for scholarship and CIS-A2K funded him to attend the entire Wikimania. Right? So, according to WMIN, this was a valid request from WMIN to CIS-A2K, I presume, as you are defending about what WMIN did.
Assuming good faith, I am believing all your words. Still, I don't understand, why only 1 volunteer in the waiting list attended the conference and next 2 in the queue were not funded. I am not talking about Jayanta Nath and Aliva Sahoo, they both declined, I am talking about the next 2 people in the queue.
Also, can you please share the letter of invitation, so that we know, who sent the letter and everything becomes transparent.
By the way, I never said, chairpersons meeting was any random meeting, I said it was informal meeting, like stewards meeting, asian meeting etc. Informal means which is not related to Wikimania official program, there is a difference between random and informal.
Echoing Manavpreet's valid query, can a Wikimedia volunteer with no attachment to the chapter get similar special treatment of getting full funds to attend Wikimania even if he/she doesn't get a Wikimania scholarship but his/her presentation is selected and/or he/she gets official invitation to speak in an informal meeting during Wikimania. Now, from your answer, I hope there is no doubt about that volunteers will receive such special treatment, because after all, the chapter does not distinguish between board members and the volunteer community and we have a prior example of WMIN president to cite. That is a great news for the volunteer community as it opens up new opportunity for the communities to participate in the conference. Alas! this we didn't knew earlier, we could have sent more Wikimedians this year, but it's ok, the community will be informed for next year and I hope, more such requests will be sent to WMIN and CIS-A2K from volunteers in future. Of course, we will keep everything open and transparent, unlike this time.
Thanks, Bodhisattwa
On Wed, 8 Aug 2018, 12:42 Yohann Thomas, yohannvt@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Bodhi
I still feel, you haven't read my email word to word. I would request you to go by the 24 hr email rule (if not more).. which I personally do many times.
Pardon my grammar & also my line to line reply, as I'm relying on my phone.. Since I'm traveling..
I will again try to explain point wise (where ever possible) & try my best to clear all doubts.
- Mr Rahul Deshmukh, did not visit Wikimania, on scholarship, or to
simply attend a random meeting. He was invited to be one of the speakers. You can find this on the agenda of it, during Wikimania.. followed by notes which carry a description. The ‘Conflict Resolution’ theme on which he was a speaker. This is generally a very long topic, on which Wikimedia Affiliates intends to discuss and deliberate over a period of time. This theme would be subsequently carried forward in upcoming Chairpersons Meetup as well, as mentioned on the Meta.
If your memory serves you right.. During the Wiki Conference India 2016, where you were also one of the organizers (& the both of us deliberated on various topics quite extensively) , several community members who had not applied for the scholarship but had later approached CIS-A2K for the same were awarded appropriately.
CIS-A2K had later informed the community about this decision.
In good faith, we assumed that, CIS-A2K did not inform the community without having any specific interest in the exercise. Wikimedia India would also like to place on record, that it could have initiated the process of informing on its own. Wikimedia India would like to put on record, in times to come not only it would inform the community but also engage with its community members on decision making for such exercises.
- Mr Rahul deshmukh had received an on record written invitation to
attend the meeting and be a speaker on ‘Conflict Resolution’. The above said invitation was shown to CIS-A2K, when requesting them for travel assistance.
*I have not stated anywhere that he received an invitation during the Chairpersons meeting at WMCON18*. He had attended Wikimedia Conference 2018 & in it had participated in the movement strategy discussion. It was during the movement strategy discussion that he received the invitation.
- The chapter has full faith and belief in all its board members
in both, individual and collective levels. This invitation was to the particular individual based on his expertise in the chapter and in the movement. Chapter has never considered any of its board members unfit to represent it. Personally, I feel Bodhi, it is very unfair on your part, to even make such allegation that the chapter would even, consider such a scenario. A well wisher of the chapter would never make such comments.
- The Chapter is not of an opinion that the community members should
be deprived of scholarship. Wikimedia India would like to put emphasis that during its grant tenure, Wikimedia India used to provide two sponsorship to its community members & we value the joy, which a volunteer gets, when he is informed that, he is going to Wikimania.
However, in this scenario , none was deprived on anything. As I have repeatedly said, Mr Rahul Deshmukh was invited to attend and give a talk on conflict resolution. Since it was about the affiliates & partnerships amongst them, the chapter approached another affiliate CIS-A2K and CCing the chapter board members
- The Chapter does not make any distinction between its board members
and its community members. Unlike CIS-A2K, Wikimedia India board members are unpaid volunteers, similar to its community members, who give their time & effort towards the community.
To Sum the entire email, the chapter has made a valuable learning, of engaging the community in a more effective way in the future.
Regards, Yohann Thomas Secretary Wikimedia India
P.S. - Neither your previous email, or any other email can affect our friendship, Bodhi .Our passion & commitment towards the movement, is what binds us :)
On Sun 5 Aug, 2018, 12:27 Bodhisattwa Mandal, < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single word.
My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to make it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
- Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to
the main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal meetups, there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, if one steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the meetup, then he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. Same principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true, everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.
- I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of
chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you provide the documentation of his invitation?
[1] https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_ April_20%2C_2018
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_ Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018
- As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already
there were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went there with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation is not at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the informal meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they considered unfit or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?
- Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same. Whereas
Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So, sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend the conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain that?
- Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend
the conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because Rahul is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?
I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also, I hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't take it personally.
Waiting for your detailed reply,
Bodhisattwa
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 11:08 Yohann Thomas, yohannvt@gmail.com wrote:
(sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)
Hi Bodhi
I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want, I can give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions.
//In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was *invited* to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_ meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal. //
Regards, Yohann Thomas Secretary Wikimedia India
On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 18:33 Bodhisattwa Mandal, < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your mail.
If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that many participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in that conference, he can represent the affiliate.
In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members unfit to attend such meeting?
Waiting for your reply, Bodhisattwa
On 3 Aug 2018 6:05 pm, "Yohann Thomas" yohannvt@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Bodhi & other community members
First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia India is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion on any topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid volunteers & have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, there was a delay in drafting a reply.
As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user groups) in their volunteer roles.
Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't financially independent & is still dependent on external funding which is fraught with regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.
Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles in community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional roles to attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers around the world. In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_ meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal.
Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want to appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in relation to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter before his term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on different issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory hurdles. I wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter is going through a difficult time.
Regards, Yohann Thomas Secretary Wikimedia India
On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi, > > WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in > Cape Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question > is why was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from > India who were in the waiting list. > > He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The > meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and > already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the > meeting. > > To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money. > > Thanks, > Bodhisattwa > _______________________________________________ > Wikimediaindia-l mailing list > Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Dear Rahul,
It's been 10 days since I've explicitly invited you to respond yourself and to take responsibility for this -- whether a mistake or a misunderstanding. It would be good if you could make time to do so. If you are unable to put in the time, please at least drop a line acknowledging you intend to, and suggest a date by which you'd be able to respond.
It seems to me people have been trying to assume good faith despite concerns about the way this was handled, but this assumption of good faith should not be abused indefinitely. WMIN's EC and its president should be accountable to the membership and the broader communities it exists to support. You agreed with this statement when I made it in our meeting in Mumbai last year. Do please show you meant it.
Thank you,
A.
On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 11:04 PM Asaf Bartov abartov@wikimedia.org wrote:
Perhaps also helpful would be to hear some response from Mr. Deshmukh himself.
Rahul, I think the concerns raised here at least merit your attention, and it's been two weeks. I encourage you to show up and discuss the concerns -- ideally, with a forthright description of what did and didn't happen around your travel to Wikimania, and with a forward-looking perspective of what might change to prevent such concerns in the future.
Thank you.
A.
On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 7:06 AM, Bodhisattwa Mandal < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Yohann,
As I and Satdeep requested, it would be great if you share the invitation letter with all of us, so that we can know who invited WMIN president to attend the meeting.
Thanks, Bodhisattwa
On Wed, 8 Aug 2018, 14:58 Bodhisattwa Mandal, < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for the detailed reply. Much appreciated.
So, to summarize your mail, WMIN president got written invitation to speak in the informal meeting of chairpersons during Wikimania and WMIN officially requested CIS-A2K to fund him to attend the meeting without depriving any Wikimedian in waiting list for scholarship and CIS-A2K funded him to attend the entire Wikimania. Right? So, according to WMIN, this was a valid request from WMIN to CIS-A2K, I presume, as you are defending about what WMIN did.
Assuming good faith, I am believing all your words. Still, I don't understand, why only 1 volunteer in the waiting list attended the conference and next 2 in the queue were not funded. I am not talking about Jayanta Nath and Aliva Sahoo, they both declined, I am talking about the next 2 people in the queue.
Also, can you please share the letter of invitation, so that we know, who sent the letter and everything becomes transparent.
By the way, I never said, chairpersons meeting was any random meeting, I said it was informal meeting, like stewards meeting, asian meeting etc. Informal means which is not related to Wikimania official program, there is a difference between random and informal.
Echoing Manavpreet's valid query, can a Wikimedia volunteer with no attachment to the chapter get similar special treatment of getting full funds to attend Wikimania even if he/she doesn't get a Wikimania scholarship but his/her presentation is selected and/or he/she gets official invitation to speak in an informal meeting during Wikimania. Now, from your answer, I hope there is no doubt about that volunteers will receive such special treatment, because after all, the chapter does not distinguish between board members and the volunteer community and we have a prior example of WMIN president to cite. That is a great news for the volunteer community as it opens up new opportunity for the communities to participate in the conference. Alas! this we didn't knew earlier, we could have sent more Wikimedians this year, but it's ok, the community will be informed for next year and I hope, more such requests will be sent to WMIN and CIS-A2K from volunteers in future. Of course, we will keep everything open and transparent, unlike this time.
Thanks, Bodhisattwa
On Wed, 8 Aug 2018, 12:42 Yohann Thomas, yohannvt@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Bodhi
I still feel, you haven't read my email word to word. I would request you to go by the 24 hr email rule (if not more).. which I personally do many times.
Pardon my grammar & also my line to line reply, as I'm relying on my phone.. Since I'm traveling..
I will again try to explain point wise (where ever possible) & try my best to clear all doubts.
- Mr Rahul Deshmukh, did not visit Wikimania, on scholarship, or to
simply attend a random meeting. He was invited to be one of the speakers. You can find this on the agenda of it, during Wikimania.. followed by notes which carry a description. The ‘Conflict Resolution’ theme on which he was a speaker. This is generally a very long topic, on which Wikimedia Affiliates intends to discuss and deliberate over a period of time. This theme would be subsequently carried forward in upcoming Chairpersons Meetup as well, as mentioned on the Meta.
If your memory serves you right.. During the Wiki Conference India 2016, where you were also one of the organizers (& the both of us deliberated on various topics quite extensively) , several community members who had not applied for the scholarship but had later approached CIS-A2K for the same were awarded appropriately.
CIS-A2K had later informed the community about this decision.
In good faith, we assumed that, CIS-A2K did not inform the community without having any specific interest in the exercise. Wikimedia India would also like to place on record, that it could have initiated the process of informing on its own. Wikimedia India would like to put on record, in times to come not only it would inform the community but also engage with its community members on decision making for such exercises.
- Mr Rahul deshmukh had received an on record written invitation to
attend the meeting and be a speaker on ‘Conflict Resolution’. The above said invitation was shown to CIS-A2K, when requesting them for travel assistance.
*I have not stated anywhere that he received an invitation during the Chairpersons meeting at WMCON18*. He had attended Wikimedia Conference 2018 & in it had participated in the movement strategy discussion. It was during the movement strategy discussion that he received the invitation.
- The chapter has full faith and belief in all its board members
in both, individual and collective levels. This invitation was to the particular individual based on his expertise in the chapter and in the movement. Chapter has never considered any of its board members unfit to represent it. Personally, I feel Bodhi, it is very unfair on your part, to even make such allegation that the chapter would even, consider such a scenario. A well wisher of the chapter would never make such comments.
- The Chapter is not of an opinion that the community members should
be deprived of scholarship. Wikimedia India would like to put emphasis that during its grant tenure, Wikimedia India used to provide two sponsorship to its community members & we value the joy, which a volunteer gets, when he is informed that, he is going to Wikimania.
However, in this scenario , none was deprived on anything. As I have repeatedly said, Mr Rahul Deshmukh was invited to attend and give a talk on conflict resolution. Since it was about the affiliates & partnerships amongst them, the chapter approached another affiliate CIS-A2K and CCing the chapter board members
- The Chapter does not make any distinction between its board members
and its community members. Unlike CIS-A2K, Wikimedia India board members are unpaid volunteers, similar to its community members, who give their time & effort towards the community.
To Sum the entire email, the chapter has made a valuable learning, of engaging the community in a more effective way in the future.
Regards, Yohann Thomas Secretary Wikimedia India
P.S. - Neither your previous email, or any other email can affect our friendship, Bodhi .Our passion & commitment towards the movement, is what binds us :)
On Sun 5 Aug, 2018, 12:27 Bodhisattwa Mandal, < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single word.
My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to make it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
- Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to
the main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal meetups, there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, if one steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the meetup, then he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. Same principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true, everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.
- I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of
chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you provide the documentation of his invitation?
[1] https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018
- As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already
there were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went there with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation is not at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the informal meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they considered unfit or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?
- Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same.
Whereas Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So, sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend the conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain that?
- Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend
the conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because Rahul is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?
I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also, I hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't take it personally.
Waiting for your detailed reply,
Bodhisattwa
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 11:08 Yohann Thomas, yohannvt@gmail.com wrote:
(sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)
Hi Bodhi
I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want, I can give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions.
//In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was *invited* to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_20...
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal. //
Regards, Yohann Thomas Secretary Wikimedia India
On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 18:33 Bodhisattwa Mandal, < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Yohann, > > Thanks for your mail. > > If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that > many participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the > meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the > meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary > of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any > affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in > that conference, he can represent the affiliate. > > In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya > Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on > behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge > amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where > his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members > unfit to attend such meeting? > > Waiting for your reply, > Bodhisattwa > > > On 3 Aug 2018 6:05 pm, "Yohann Thomas" yohannvt@gmail.com wrote: > > Dear Bodhi & other community members > > First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia > India is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion > on any topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid > volunteers & have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, > there was a delay in drafting a reply. > > As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run > organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards > the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user > groups) in their volunteer roles. > > Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't > financially independent & is still dependent on external funding which is > fraught with regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA. > > Having said that, many community members juggle their different > roles in community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional > roles to attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers > around the world. > In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier > attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & > then subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's > meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below. > > > https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_20... > > With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund > its trip & they accepted his proposal. > > Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want > to appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in > relation to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter > before his term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on > different issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory > hurdles. I wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter > is going through a difficult time. > > Regards, > Yohann Thomas > Secretary > Wikimedia India > > ---- > On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, < > bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in >> Cape Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question >> is why was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from >> India who were in the waiting list. >> >> He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The >> meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and >> already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the >> meeting. >> >> To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money. >> >> Thanks, >> Bodhisattwa >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >> > >
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Dear WMIN EC/Rahul,
I think the community is still waiting for an answer.
My further points:
1. I appreciate Abhinav for defending the Chapter. Having been in the seat, I would personally incline to defend too, however it really has to make sense.
2. CIS has done it's role of helping WMIN as always. Perhaps request of support upto this scale should be available to public even before it is accepted. I think CIS should also have analysed that there were two members from WMIN EC were attending Wikimania.
Would not like to deviate more. In complete sync with Asaf. WMIN is answerable to the community and to its members. No doubt here and it's been just too long, way too long.
Dear WMIN, the only way to gain community confidence is to engage with them. Really surprised with activities like Wiki Loves Monuments which was always a Chapter supported activity is not supported by Chapter this year or correct me if I'm wrong.
Regards, Karthik Nadar Ignore types, sent using my OnePlus
On Fri 24 Aug, 2018, 1:22 AM Asaf Bartov, abartov@wikimedia.org wrote:
Dear Rahul,
It's been 10 days since I've explicitly invited you to respond yourself and to take responsibility for this -- whether a mistake or a misunderstanding. It would be good if you could make time to do so. If you are unable to put in the time, please at least drop a line acknowledging you intend to, and suggest a date by which you'd be able to respond.
It seems to me people have been trying to assume good faith despite concerns about the way this was handled, but this assumption of good faith should not be abused indefinitely. WMIN's EC and its president should be accountable to the membership and the broader communities it exists to support. You agreed with this statement when I made it in our meeting in Mumbai last year. Do please show you meant it.
Thank you,
A.On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 11:04 PM Asaf Bartov abartov@wikimedia.org wrote:
Perhaps also helpful would be to hear some response from Mr. Deshmukh himself.
Rahul, I think the concerns raised here at least merit your attention, and it's been two weeks. I encourage you to show up and discuss the concerns -- ideally, with a forthright description of what did and didn't happen around your travel to Wikimania, and with a forward-looking perspective of what might change to prevent such concerns in the future.
Thank you.
A.
On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 7:06 AM, Bodhisattwa Mandal < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Yohann,
As I and Satdeep requested, it would be great if you share the invitation letter with all of us, so that we can know who invited WMIN president to attend the meeting.
Thanks, Bodhisattwa
On Wed, 8 Aug 2018, 14:58 Bodhisattwa Mandal, < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for the detailed reply. Much appreciated.
So, to summarize your mail, WMIN president got written invitation to speak in the informal meeting of chairpersons during Wikimania and WMIN officially requested CIS-A2K to fund him to attend the meeting without depriving any Wikimedian in waiting list for scholarship and CIS-A2K funded him to attend the entire Wikimania. Right? So, according to WMIN, this was a valid request from WMIN to CIS-A2K, I presume, as you are defending about what WMIN did.
Assuming good faith, I am believing all your words. Still, I don't understand, why only 1 volunteer in the waiting list attended the conference and next 2 in the queue were not funded. I am not talking about Jayanta Nath and Aliva Sahoo, they both declined, I am talking about the next 2 people in the queue.
Also, can you please share the letter of invitation, so that we know, who sent the letter and everything becomes transparent.
By the way, I never said, chairpersons meeting was any random meeting, I said it was informal meeting, like stewards meeting, asian meeting etc. Informal means which is not related to Wikimania official program, there is a difference between random and informal.
Echoing Manavpreet's valid query, can a Wikimedia volunteer with no attachment to the chapter get similar special treatment of getting full funds to attend Wikimania even if he/she doesn't get a Wikimania scholarship but his/her presentation is selected and/or he/she gets official invitation to speak in an informal meeting during Wikimania. Now, from your answer, I hope there is no doubt about that volunteers will receive such special treatment, because after all, the chapter does not distinguish between board members and the volunteer community and we have a prior example of WMIN president to cite. That is a great news for the volunteer community as it opens up new opportunity for the communities to participate in the conference. Alas! this we didn't knew earlier, we could have sent more Wikimedians this year, but it's ok, the community will be informed for next year and I hope, more such requests will be sent to WMIN and CIS-A2K from volunteers in future. Of course, we will keep everything open and transparent, unlike this time.
Thanks, Bodhisattwa
On Wed, 8 Aug 2018, 12:42 Yohann Thomas, yohannvt@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Bodhi
I still feel, you haven't read my email word to word. I would request you to go by the 24 hr email rule (if not more).. which I personally do many times.
Pardon my grammar & also my line to line reply, as I'm relying on my phone.. Since I'm traveling..
I will again try to explain point wise (where ever possible) & try my best to clear all doubts.
- Mr Rahul Deshmukh, did not visit Wikimania, on scholarship, or to
simply attend a random meeting. He was invited to be one of the speakers. You can find this on the agenda of it, during Wikimania.. followed by notes which carry a description. The ‘Conflict Resolution’ theme on which he was a speaker. This is generally a very long topic, on which Wikimedia Affiliates intends to discuss and deliberate over a period of time. This theme would be subsequently carried forward in upcoming Chairpersons Meetup as well, as mentioned on the Meta.
If your memory serves you right.. During the Wiki Conference India 2016, where you were also one of the organizers (& the both of us deliberated on various topics quite extensively) , several community members who had not applied for the scholarship but had later approached CIS-A2K for the same were awarded appropriately.
CIS-A2K had later informed the community about this decision.
In good faith, we assumed that, CIS-A2K did not inform the community without having any specific interest in the exercise. Wikimedia India would also like to place on record, that it could have initiated the process of informing on its own. Wikimedia India would like to put on record, in times to come not only it would inform the community but also engage with its community members on decision making for such exercises.
- Mr Rahul deshmukh had received an on record written invitation to
attend the meeting and be a speaker on ‘Conflict Resolution’. The above said invitation was shown to CIS-A2K, when requesting them for travel assistance.
*I have not stated anywhere that he received an invitation during the Chairpersons meeting at WMCON18*. He had attended Wikimedia Conference 2018 & in it had participated in the movement strategy discussion. It was during the movement strategy discussion that he received the invitation.
- The chapter has full faith and belief in all its board members
in both, individual and collective levels. This invitation was to the particular individual based on his expertise in the chapter and in the movement. Chapter has never considered any of its board members unfit to represent it. Personally, I feel Bodhi, it is very unfair on your part, to even make such allegation that the chapter would even, consider such a scenario. A well wisher of the chapter would never make such comments.
- The Chapter is not of an opinion that the community members
should be deprived of scholarship. Wikimedia India would like to put emphasis that during its grant tenure, Wikimedia India used to provide two sponsorship to its community members & we value the joy, which a volunteer gets, when he is informed that, he is going to Wikimania.
However, in this scenario , none was deprived on anything. As I have repeatedly said, Mr Rahul Deshmukh was invited to attend and give a talk on conflict resolution. Since it was about the affiliates & partnerships amongst them, the chapter approached another affiliate CIS-A2K and CCing the chapter board members
- The Chapter does not make any distinction between its board members
and its community members. Unlike CIS-A2K, Wikimedia India board members are unpaid volunteers, similar to its community members, who give their time & effort towards the community.
To Sum the entire email, the chapter has made a valuable learning, of engaging the community in a more effective way in the future.
Regards, Yohann Thomas Secretary Wikimedia India
P.S. - Neither your previous email, or any other email can affect our friendship, Bodhi .Our passion & commitment towards the movement, is what binds us :)
On Sun 5 Aug, 2018, 12:27 Bodhisattwa Mandal, < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single word.
My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to make it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
- Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to
the main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal meetups, there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, if one steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the meetup, then he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. Same principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true, everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.
- I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of
chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you provide the documentation of his invitation?
[1] https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018
- As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already
there were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went there with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation is not at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the informal meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they considered unfit or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?
- Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same.
Whereas Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So, sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend the conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain that?
- Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend
the conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because Rahul is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?
I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also, I hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't take it personally.
Waiting for your detailed reply,
Bodhisattwa
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 11:08 Yohann Thomas, yohannvt@gmail.com wrote:
> (sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule) > > Hi Bodhi > > I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want, > I can give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions. > > //In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier > attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & > then subsequently was *invited* to Wikimania, especially the > Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link > below. > > > https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_20... > > With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund > its trip & they accepted his proposal. // > > > Regards, > Yohann Thomas > Secretary > Wikimedia India > > > On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 18:33 Bodhisattwa Mandal, < > bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi Yohann, >> >> Thanks for your mail. >> >> If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that >> many participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the >> meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the >> meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary >> of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any >> affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in >> that conference, he can represent the affiliate. >> >> In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya >> Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on >> behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge >> amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where >> his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members >> unfit to attend such meeting? >> >> Waiting for your reply, >> Bodhisattwa >> >> >> On 3 Aug 2018 6:05 pm, "Yohann Thomas" yohannvt@gmail.com wrote: >> >> Dear Bodhi & other community members >> >> First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia >> India is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion >> on any topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid >> volunteers & have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, >> there was a delay in drafting a reply. >> >> As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run >> organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards >> the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user >> groups) in their volunteer roles. >> >> Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't >> financially independent & is still dependent on external funding which is >> fraught with regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA. >> >> Having said that, many community members juggle their different >> roles in community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional >> roles to attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers >> around the world. >> In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier >> attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & >> then subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's >> meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below. >> >> >> https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_20... >> >> With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund >> its trip & they accepted his proposal. >> >> Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want >> to appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in >> relation to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter >> before his term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on >> different issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory >> hurdles. I wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter >> is going through a difficult time. >> >> Regards, >> Yohann Thomas >> Secretary >> Wikimedia India >> >> ---- >> On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, < >> bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in >>> Cape Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question >>> is why was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from >>> India who were in the waiting list. >>> >>> He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The >>> meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and >>> already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the >>> meeting. >>> >>> To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Bodhisattwa >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >>> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >>> >> >>
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-- Asaf Bartov Wikimedia Foundation http://www.wikimediafoundation.org
Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality! https://donate.wikimedia.org
-- Asaf Bartov Wikimedia Foundation http://www.wikimediafoundation.org
Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality! https://donate.wikimedia.org _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Hi,
In spite of so many mails, if he(Rahul) is not responding, It is obvious that he is not on this mailing list.
I found Bodhisattwa's initial query was in the right spirit but later on tones got changed on the thread and it has almost become scrutiny/interrogation !! I completely understand/respect/agree that we are all volunteers and we do have concerns about the activities happening around. But in this case, things are probably not taken "In good faith" which is a base of a Wikipedian. Any volunteer is always free to apply/ask for scholarship for any reason towards the cause of Wikipedia and no one can deny that freedom. In this case, it happens to be a office bearer of the organisation. (I am not taking any names here and making it generic) If a volunteer feels that the reason for asking for scholarship is valid, he/she should ask for it.
It is the duty of the person/organisation sanctioning such scholarships/funding to judge if the justification for the same is valid or not. If the justification is not right, sponsorship can be easily rejected. Nothing wrong in it. In this case, CIS-A2K has already replied to the query. Somehow, people are still asking the sponsored volunteer for justification and not the sponsoring authorities. It should be the other way round as the sponsors have the authority to accept or reject any proposal. I believe, in the past WMF has also spend money on similar sponsorships without even informing the community. Lot of money has been spent in various projects without much visibility and actual numbers in achieving the target. But then very few people are raising alerts about it.
So, if at all people want to raise their concern, find the right target to ask questions/get answers and not just another volunteer !! Hope people will take up things in the right spirit.
Disclaimer: I have not met/talked to anyone from WMIN/WMF after this thread has started. Just had a 1-2 minute casual discussion with Tito about the mail thread itself.
Regards -Sudhanwa
On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 11:15 AM Karthik Nadar karthikndr@gmail.com wrote:
Dear WMIN EC/Rahul,
I think the community is still waiting for an answer.
My further points:
- I appreciate Abhinav for defending the Chapter. Having been in the
seat, I would personally incline to defend too, however it really has to make sense.
- CIS has done it's role of helping WMIN as always. Perhaps request of
support upto this scale should be available to public even before it is accepted. I think CIS should also have analysed that there were two members from WMIN EC were attending Wikimania.
Would not like to deviate more. In complete sync with Asaf. WMIN is answerable to the community and to its members. No doubt here and it's been just too long, way too long.
Dear WMIN, the only way to gain community confidence is to engage with them. Really surprised with activities like Wiki Loves Monuments which was always a Chapter supported activity is not supported by Chapter this year or correct me if I'm wrong.
Regards, Karthik Nadar Ignore types, sent using my OnePlus
On Fri 24 Aug, 2018, 1:22 AM Asaf Bartov, abartov@wikimedia.org wrote:
Dear Rahul,
It's been 10 days since I've explicitly invited you to respond yourself and to take responsibility for this -- whether a mistake or a misunderstanding. It would be good if you could make time to do so. If you are unable to put in the time, please at least drop a line acknowledging you intend to, and suggest a date by which you'd be able to respond.
It seems to me people have been trying to assume good faith despite concerns about the way this was handled, but this assumption of good faith should not be abused indefinitely. WMIN's EC and its president should be accountable to the membership and the broader communities it exists to support. You agreed with this statement when I made it in our meeting in Mumbai last year. Do please show you meant it.
Thank you,
A.On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 11:04 PM Asaf Bartov abartov@wikimedia.org wrote:
Perhaps also helpful would be to hear some response from Mr. Deshmukh himself.
Rahul, I think the concerns raised here at least merit your attention, and it's been two weeks. I encourage you to show up and discuss the concerns -- ideally, with a forthright description of what did and didn't happen around your travel to Wikimania, and with a forward-looking perspective of what might change to prevent such concerns in the future.
Thank you.
A.
On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 7:06 AM, Bodhisattwa Mandal < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Yohann,
As I and Satdeep requested, it would be great if you share the invitation letter with all of us, so that we can know who invited WMIN president to attend the meeting.
Thanks, Bodhisattwa
On Wed, 8 Aug 2018, 14:58 Bodhisattwa Mandal, < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for the detailed reply. Much appreciated.
So, to summarize your mail, WMIN president got written invitation to speak in the informal meeting of chairpersons during Wikimania and WMIN officially requested CIS-A2K to fund him to attend the meeting without depriving any Wikimedian in waiting list for scholarship and CIS-A2K funded him to attend the entire Wikimania. Right? So, according to WMIN, this was a valid request from WMIN to CIS-A2K, I presume, as you are defending about what WMIN did.
Assuming good faith, I am believing all your words. Still, I don't understand, why only 1 volunteer in the waiting list attended the conference and next 2 in the queue were not funded. I am not talking about Jayanta Nath and Aliva Sahoo, they both declined, I am talking about the next 2 people in the queue.
Also, can you please share the letter of invitation, so that we know, who sent the letter and everything becomes transparent.
By the way, I never said, chairpersons meeting was any random meeting, I said it was informal meeting, like stewards meeting, asian meeting etc. Informal means which is not related to Wikimania official program, there is a difference between random and informal.
Echoing Manavpreet's valid query, can a Wikimedia volunteer with no attachment to the chapter get similar special treatment of getting full funds to attend Wikimania even if he/she doesn't get a Wikimania scholarship but his/her presentation is selected and/or he/she gets official invitation to speak in an informal meeting during Wikimania. Now, from your answer, I hope there is no doubt about that volunteers will receive such special treatment, because after all, the chapter does not distinguish between board members and the volunteer community and we have a prior example of WMIN president to cite. That is a great news for the volunteer community as it opens up new opportunity for the communities to participate in the conference. Alas! this we didn't knew earlier, we could have sent more Wikimedians this year, but it's ok, the community will be informed for next year and I hope, more such requests will be sent to WMIN and CIS-A2K from volunteers in future. Of course, we will keep everything open and transparent, unlike this time.
Thanks, Bodhisattwa
On Wed, 8 Aug 2018, 12:42 Yohann Thomas, yohannvt@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Bodhi
I still feel, you haven't read my email word to word. I would request you to go by the 24 hr email rule (if not more).. which I personally do many times.
Pardon my grammar & also my line to line reply, as I'm relying on my phone.. Since I'm traveling..
I will again try to explain point wise (where ever possible) & try my best to clear all doubts.
- Mr Rahul Deshmukh, did not visit Wikimania, on scholarship, or to
simply attend a random meeting. He was invited to be one of the speakers. You can find this on the agenda of it, during Wikimania.. followed by notes which carry a description. The ‘Conflict Resolution’ theme on which he was a speaker. This is generally a very long topic, on which Wikimedia Affiliates intends to discuss and deliberate over a period of time. This theme would be subsequently carried forward in upcoming Chairpersons Meetup as well, as mentioned on the Meta.
If your memory serves you right.. During the Wiki Conference India 2016, where you were also one of the organizers (& the both of us deliberated on various topics quite extensively) , several community members who had not applied for the scholarship but had later approached CIS-A2K for the same were awarded appropriately.
CIS-A2K had later informed the community about this decision.
In good faith, we assumed that, CIS-A2K did not inform the community without having any specific interest in the exercise. Wikimedia India would also like to place on record, that it could have initiated the process of informing on its own. Wikimedia India would like to put on record, in times to come not only it would inform the community but also engage with its community members on decision making for such exercises.
- Mr Rahul deshmukh had received an on record written invitation
to attend the meeting and be a speaker on ‘Conflict Resolution’. The above said invitation was shown to CIS-A2K, when requesting them for travel assistance.
*I have not stated anywhere that he received an invitation during the Chairpersons meeting at WMCON18*. He had attended Wikimedia Conference 2018 & in it had participated in the movement strategy discussion. It was during the movement strategy discussion that he received the invitation.
- The chapter has full faith and belief in all its board members
in both, individual and collective levels. This invitation was to the particular individual based on his expertise in the chapter and in the movement. Chapter has never considered any of its board members unfit to represent it. Personally, I feel Bodhi, it is very unfair on your part, to even make such allegation that the chapter would even, consider such a scenario. A well wisher of the chapter would never make such comments.
- The Chapter is not of an opinion that the community members
should be deprived of scholarship. Wikimedia India would like to put emphasis that during its grant tenure, Wikimedia India used to provide two sponsorship to its community members & we value the joy, which a volunteer gets, when he is informed that, he is going to Wikimania.
However, in this scenario , none was deprived on anything. As I have repeatedly said, Mr Rahul Deshmukh was invited to attend and give a talk on conflict resolution. Since it was about the affiliates & partnerships amongst them, the chapter approached another affiliate CIS-A2K and CCing the chapter board members
- The Chapter does not make any distinction between its board
members and its community members. Unlike CIS-A2K, Wikimedia India board members are unpaid volunteers, similar to its community members, who give their time & effort towards the community.
To Sum the entire email, the chapter has made a valuable learning, of engaging the community in a more effective way in the future.
Regards, Yohann Thomas Secretary Wikimedia India
P.S. - Neither your previous email, or any other email can affect our friendship, Bodhi .Our passion & commitment towards the movement, is what binds us :)
On Sun 5 Aug, 2018, 12:27 Bodhisattwa Mandal, < bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Yohann, > > Thanks for your reply, much appreciated. > > > I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a > single word. > > My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to > make it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective. > > 1) Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related > to the main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal > meetups, there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, > if one steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the > meetup, then he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. > Same principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not > eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can > you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship > would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true, > everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups > in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year. > > 2) I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of > chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a > proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was > invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't > attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you > provide the documentation of his invitation? > > [1] > https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018 > > [2] > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018 > > 3) As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already > there were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went > there with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation > is not at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the > informal meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they > considered unfit or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so? > > 4) Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same. > Whereas Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for > volunteers. So, sending an affiliate representative with the donation > money, depriving a Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and > supposed to attend the conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can > you please explain that? > > 5) Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend > the conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because > Rahul is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer? > > I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. > Also, I hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't > take it personally. > > Waiting for your detailed reply, > > Bodhisattwa > > On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 11:08 Yohann Thomas, yohannvt@gmail.com wrote: > >> (sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule) >> >> Hi Bodhi >> >> I would request you to please read my email completely. If you >> want, I can give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your >> questions. >> >> //In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier >> attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & >> then subsequently was *invited* to Wikimania, especially the >> Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link >> below. >> >> >> https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_20... >> >> With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund >> its trip & they accepted his proposal. // >> >> >> Regards, >> Yohann Thomas >> Secretary >> Wikimedia India >> >> >> On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 18:33 Bodhisattwa Mandal, < >> bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi Yohann, >>> >>> Thanks for your mail. >>> >>> If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that >>> many participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the >>> meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the >>> meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary >>> of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any >>> affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in >>> that conference, he can represent the affiliate. >>> >>> In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna >>> Chaitanya Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the >>> meeting on behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to >>> spend a huge amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a >>> meeting, where his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider >>> these two members unfit to attend such meeting? >>> >>> Waiting for your reply, >>> Bodhisattwa >>> >>> >>> On 3 Aug 2018 6:05 pm, "Yohann Thomas" yohannvt@gmail.com wrote: >>> >>> Dear Bodhi & other community members >>> >>> First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia >>> India is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion >>> on any topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid >>> volunteers & have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, >>> there was a delay in drafting a reply. >>> >>> As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run >>> organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards >>> the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user >>> groups) in their volunteer roles. >>> >>> Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't >>> financially independent & is still dependent on external funding which is >>> fraught with regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA. >>> >>> Having said that, many community members juggle their different >>> roles in community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional >>> roles to attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers >>> around the world. >>> In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier >>> attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & >>> then subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's >>> meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below. >>> >>> >>> https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_20... >>> >>> With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to >>> fund its trip & they accepted his proposal. >>> >>> Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really >>> want to appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in >>> relation to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter >>> before his term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on >>> different issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory >>> hurdles. I wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter >>> is going through a difficult time. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Yohann Thomas >>> Secretary >>> Wikimedia India >>> >>> ---- >>> On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, < >>> bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in >>>> Cape Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question >>>> is why was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from >>>> India who were in the waiting list. >>>> >>>> He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. >>>> The meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and >>>> already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the >>>> meeting. >>>> >>>> To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Bodhisattwa >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >>>> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >>>> >>> >>>
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Just a technical clarification - Asaf copied Rahul in his first emai so he must have received the email. I have copied Rahul again. In worst case scenario (if he is not there in the mailing list), others from the chapter board would have informed him. It’s very hard to believe that the discussion has gone so far without Rahul not being aware Also, it’s important for movement partner reps to be on mailing lists of their own country.
Sorry, I don’t find the argument — that Rahul hasn’t replied back because he isn’t there in the mailing list — a strong one.
S
On Sep 9, 2018, at 3:01 PM, Sudhanwa Jogalekar sudhanwa.com@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
In spite of so many mails, if he(Rahul) is not responding, It is obvious that he is not on this mailing list.
I found Bodhisattwa's initial query was in the right spirit but later on tones got changed on the thread and it has almost become scrutiny/interrogation !! I completely understand/respect/agree that we are all volunteers and we do have concerns about the activities happening around. But in this case, things are probably not taken "In good faith" which is a base of a Wikipedian. Any volunteer is always free to apply/ask for scholarship for any reason towards the cause of Wikipedia and no one can deny that freedom. In this case, it happens to be a office bearer of the organisation. (I am not taking any names here and making it generic) If a volunteer feels that the reason for asking for scholarship is valid, he/she should ask for it.
It is the duty of the person/organisation sanctioning such scholarships/funding to judge if the justification for the same is valid or not. If the justification is not right, sponsorship can be easily rejected. Nothing wrong in it. In this case, CIS-A2K has already replied to the query. Somehow, people are still asking the sponsored volunteer for justification and not the sponsoring authorities. It should be the other way round as the sponsors have the authority to accept or reject any proposal. I believe, in the past WMF has also spend money on similar sponsorships without even informing the community. Lot of money has been spent in various projects without much visibility and actual numbers in achieving the target. But then very few people are raising alerts about it.
So, if at all people want to raise their concern, find the right target to ask questions/get answers and not just another volunteer !! Hope people will take up things in the right spirit.
Disclaimer: I have not met/talked to anyone from WMIN/WMF after this thread has started. Just had a 1-2 minute casual discussion with Tito about the mail thread itself.
Regards -Sudhanwa
On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 11:15 AM Karthik Nadar karthikndr@gmail.com wrote: Dear WMIN EC/Rahul,
I think the community is still waiting for an answer.
My further points:
I appreciate Abhinav for defending the Chapter. Having been in the seat, I would personally incline to defend too, however it really has to make sense.
CIS has done it's role of helping WMIN as always. Perhaps request of support upto this scale should be available to public even before it is accepted. I think CIS should also have analysed that there were two members from WMIN EC were attending Wikimania.
Would not like to deviate more. In complete sync with Asaf. WMIN is answerable to the community and to its members. No doubt here and it's been just too long, way too long.
Dear WMIN, the only way to gain community confidence is to engage with them. Really surprised with activities like Wiki Loves Monuments which was always a Chapter supported activity is not supported by Chapter this year or correct me if I'm wrong.
Regards, Karthik Nadar Ignore types, sent using my OnePlus
On Fri 24 Aug, 2018, 1:22 AM Asaf Bartov, abartov@wikimedia.org wrote: Dear Rahul,
It's been 10 days since I've explicitly invited you to respond yourself and to take responsibility for this -- whether a mistake or a misunderstanding. It would be good if you could make time to do so. If you are unable to put in the time, please at least drop a line acknowledging you intend to, and suggest a date by which you'd be able to respond.
It seems to me people have been trying to assume good faith despite concerns about the way this was handled, but this assumption of good faith should not be abused indefinitely. WMIN's EC and its president should be accountable to the membership and the broader communities it exists to support. You agreed with this statement when I made it in our meeting in Mumbai last year. Do please show you meant it.
Thank you,
A.On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 11:04 PM Asaf Bartov abartov@wikimedia.org wrote: Perhaps also helpful would be to hear some response from Mr. Deshmukh himself.
Rahul, I think the concerns raised here at least merit your attention, and it's been two weeks. I encourage you to show up and discuss the concerns -- ideally, with a forthright description of what did and didn't happen around your travel to Wikimania, and with a forward-looking perspective of what might change to prevent such concerns in the future.
Thank you.
A.
On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 7:06 AM, Bodhisattwa Mandal bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com wrote: Hi Yohann,
As I and Satdeep requested, it would be great if you share the invitation letter with all of us, so that we can know who invited WMIN president to attend the meeting.
Thanks, Bodhisattwa
On Wed, 8 Aug 2018, 14:58 Bodhisattwa Mandal, bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com wrote: Hi Yohann,
Thanks for the detailed reply. Much appreciated.
So, to summarize your mail, WMIN president got written invitation to speak in the informal meeting of chairpersons during Wikimania and WMIN officially requested CIS-A2K to fund him to attend the meeting without depriving any Wikimedian in waiting list for scholarship and CIS-A2K funded him to attend the entire Wikimania. Right? So, according to WMIN, this was a valid request from WMIN to CIS-A2K, I presume, as you are defending about what WMIN did.
Assuming good faith, I am believing all your words. Still, I don't understand, why only 1 volunteer in the waiting list attended the conference and next 2 in the queue were not funded. I am not talking about Jayanta Nath and Aliva Sahoo, they both declined, I am talking about the next 2 people in the queue.
Also, can you please share the letter of invitation, so that we know, who sent the letter and everything becomes transparent.
By the way, I never said, chairpersons meeting was any random meeting, I said it was informal meeting, like stewards meeting, asian meeting etc. Informal means which is not related to Wikimania official program, there is a difference between random and informal.
Echoing Manavpreet's valid query, can a Wikimedia volunteer with no attachment to the chapter get similar special treatment of getting full funds to attend Wikimania even if he/she doesn't get a Wikimania scholarship but his/her presentation is selected and/or he/she gets official invitation to speak in an informal meeting during Wikimania. Now, from your answer, I hope there is no doubt about that volunteers will receive such special treatment, because after all, the chapter does not distinguish between board members and the volunteer community and we have a prior example of WMIN president to cite. That is a great news for the volunteer community as it opens up new opportunity for the communities to participate in the conference. Alas! this we didn't knew earlier, we could have sent more Wikimedians this year, but it's ok, the community will be informed for next year and I hope, more such requests will be sent to WMIN and CIS-A2K from volunteers in future. Of course, we will keep everything open and transparent, unlike this time.
Thanks, Bodhisattwa
> On Wed, 8 Aug 2018, 12:42 Yohann Thomas, yohannvt@gmail.com wrote: > Dear Bodhi > > I still feel, you haven't read my email word to word. I would request you to go by the 24 hr email rule (if not more).. which I personally do many times. > > Pardon my grammar & also my line to line reply, as I'm relying on my phone.. Since I'm traveling.. > > I will again try to explain point wise (where ever possible) & try my best to clear all doubts. > > 1) Mr Rahul Deshmukh, did not visit Wikimania, on scholarship, or to simply attend a random meeting. He was invited to be one of the speakers. You can find this on the agenda of it, during Wikimania.. followed by notes which carry a description. The ‘Conflict Resolution’ theme on which he was a speaker. This is generally a very long topic, on which Wikimedia Affiliates intends to discuss and deliberate over a period of time. This theme would be subsequently carried forward in upcoming Chairpersons Meetup as well, as mentioned on the Meta. > > If your memory serves you right.. During the Wiki Conference India 2016, where you were also one of the organizers (& the both of us deliberated on various topics quite extensively) , several community members who had not applied for the scholarship but had later approached CIS-A2K for the same were awarded appropriately. > > CIS-A2K had later informed the community about this decision. > > In good faith, we assumed that, CIS-A2K did not inform the community without having any specific interest in the exercise. Wikimedia India would also like to place on record, that it could have initiated the process of informing on its own. Wikimedia India would like to put on record, in times to come not only it would inform the community but also engage with its community members on decision making for such exercises. > > 2) Mr Rahul deshmukh had received an on record written invitation to attend the meeting and be a speaker on ‘Conflict Resolution’. The above said invitation was shown to CIS-A2K, when requesting them for travel assistance. > > I have not stated anywhere that he received an invitation during the Chairpersons meeting at WMCON18. He had attended Wikimedia Conference 2018 & in it had participated in the movement strategy discussion. It was during the movement strategy discussion that he received the invitation. > > 3) The chapter has full faith and belief in all its board members in both, individual and collective levels. This invitation was to the particular individual based on his expertise in the chapter and in the movement. Chapter has never considered any of its board members unfit to represent it. Personally, I feel Bodhi, it is very unfair on your part, to even make such allegation that the chapter would even, consider such a scenario. A well wisher of the chapter would never make such comments. > > 4) The Chapter is not of an opinion that the community members should be deprived of scholarship. Wikimedia India would like to put emphasis that during its grant tenure, Wikimedia India used to provide two sponsorship to its community members & we value the joy, which a volunteer gets, when he is informed that, he is going to Wikimania. > > However, in this scenario , none was deprived on anything. As I have repeatedly said, Mr Rahul Deshmukh was invited to attend and give a talk on conflict resolution. Since it was about the affiliates & partnerships amongst them, the chapter approached another affiliate CIS-A2K and CCing the chapter board members > > 5) The Chapter does not make any distinction between its board members and its community members. Unlike CIS-A2K, Wikimedia India board members are unpaid volunteers, similar to its community members, who give their time & effort towards the community. > > To Sum the entire email, the chapter has made a valuable learning, of engaging the community in a more effective way in the future. > > Regards, > Yohann Thomas > Secretary > Wikimedia India > > P.S. - Neither your previous email, or any other email can affect our friendship, Bodhi .Our passion & commitment towards the movement, is what binds us :) > > -------- >> On Sun 5 Aug, 2018, 12:27 Bodhisattwa Mandal, bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com wrote: >> Hi Yohann, >> >> Thanks for your reply, much appreciated. >> >> >> I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single word. >> >> My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to make it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective. >> >> 1) Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to the main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal meetups, there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, if one steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the meetup, then he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. Same principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true, everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year. >> >> 2) I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you provide the documentation of his invitation? >> >> [1] https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018 >> [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018 >> >> 3) As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already there were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went there with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation is not at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the informal meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they considered unfit or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so? >> >> 4) Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same. Whereas Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So, sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend the conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain that? >> >> 5) Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend the conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because Rahul is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer? >> >> I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also, I hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't take it personally. >> >> Waiting for your detailed reply, >> >> Bodhisattwa >> >> >>> On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 11:08 Yohann Thomas, yohannvt@gmail.com wrote: >>> (sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule) >>> >>> Hi Bodhi >>> >>> I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want, I can give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions. >>> >>> //In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below. >>> >>> https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_20... >>> >>> With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal. // >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> Yohann Thomas >>> Secretary >>> Wikimedia India >>> >>> >>>> On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 18:33 Bodhisattwa Mandal, bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com wrote: >>>> Hi Yohann, >>>> >>>> Thanks for your mail. >>>> >>>> If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that many participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in that conference, he can represent the affiliate. >>>> >>>> In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members unfit to attend such meeting? >>>> >>>> Waiting for your reply, >>>> Bodhisattwa >>>> >>>> >>>> On 3 Aug 2018 6:05 pm, "Yohann Thomas" yohannvt@gmail.com wrote: >>>> Dear Bodhi & other community members >>>> >>>> First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia India is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion on any topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid volunteers & have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, there was a delay in drafting a reply. >>>> >>>> As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user groups) in their volunteer roles. >>>> >>>> Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't financially independent & is still dependent on external funding which is fraught with regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA. >>>> >>>> Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles in community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional roles to attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers around the world. >>>> In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below. >>>> >>>> https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_20... >>>> >>>> With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal. >>>> >>>> Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want to appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in relation to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter before his term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on different issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory hurdles. I wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter is going through a difficult time. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Yohann Thomas >>>> Secretary >>>> Wikimedia India >>>> >>>> ---- >>>>> On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com wrote: >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India who were in the waiting list. >>>>> >>>>> He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the meeting. >>>>> >>>>> To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Bodhisattwa >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >>>>> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >>>>
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On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 3:47 PM Subhashish Panigrahi psubhashish@gmail.com wrote:
Just a technical clarification - Asaf copied Rahul in his first emai so he must have received the email. I have copied Rahul again. In worst case scenario (if he is not there in the mailing list), others from the chapter board would have informed him. It’s very hard to believe that the discussion has gone so far without Rahul not being aware Also, it’s important for movement partner reps to be on mailing lists of their own country.
My bad. Haven't noticed Rahul is also marked in the mails.
Sorry, I don’t find the argument — that Rahul hasn’t replied back because he isn’t there in the mailing list — a strong one.
Completely agree that he should reply.
Regards -Sudhanwa
*Dear all,*
*I am extremely sorry to inform you that my younger cousin brother passed away last Friday from severe medical complications. He was just 38 and had been hospitalised for several weeks in critical stage. *
*Being engrossed in the family issue I was not able to reply the thread for which I am extremely sorry.*
*Regarding the issue as discussed in the thread I had requested for sponsorship with all needful information from external funding agency CIS, and CIS agreed to it. Wikimedia India did not spend any fund from its account. *
*However this discussion will be helpful for Wikimedia India while disseminating WMIN’s funds in future. *
*In case someone wants any other information in this regard I would request community members to personally email me.*
*Thanks*
*Rahul Deshmukh*
On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Sudhanwa Jogalekar sudhanwa.com@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 3:47 PM Subhashish Panigrahi psubhashish@gmail.com wrote:
Just a technical clarification - Asaf copied Rahul in his first emai so he must have received the email. I have copied Rahul again. In worst case scenario (if he is not there in the mailing list), others from the chapter board would have informed him. It’s very hard to believe that the discussion has gone so far without Rahul not being aware Also, it’s important for movement partner reps to be on mailing lists of their own country.
My bad. Haven't noticed Rahul is also marked in the mails.
Sorry, I don’t find the argument — that Rahul hasn’t replied back because he isn’t there in the mailing list — a strong one.
Completely agree that he should reply.
Regards -Sudhanwa
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Hi Rahul,
It's very sad to hear about your loss. I totally understand how difficult it must have been for you and rest of your family.
Thanks a lot responding to this thread. I understand your request to personally email you but there are many unanswered questions such as information about the inviting organization, reporting etc. in this thread and it would be better if you can answer all the questions one by one in one email on this thread itself.
Let me know if you need any help in collecting all the questions in one email. I am available to help you. Otherwise, just go through the whole thread (which will provide you with enough context as well).
I agree with you that this discussion will help WMIN and the larger wikimedia community as well. It will also help us ensure more transparency in our processes.
Looking forward to hear from you! Thank you once again for taking out some time to reply here. I believe you must not be fully available yet. So, take your time and respond whenever you can in the coming weeks.
Best Satdeep
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 7:09 PM Rahul Deshmukh rahuldeshmukh101@wikimedia.in wrote:
*Dear all,*
*I am extremely sorry to inform you that my younger cousin brother passed away last Friday from severe medical complications. He was just 38 and had been hospitalised for several weeks in critical stage. *
*Being engrossed in the family issue I was not able to reply the thread for which I am extremely sorry.*
*Regarding the issue as discussed in the thread I had requested for sponsorship with all needful information from external funding agency CIS, and CIS agreed to it. Wikimedia India did not spend any fund from its account. *
*However this discussion will be helpful for Wikimedia India while disseminating WMIN’s funds in future. *
*In case someone wants any other information in this regard I would request community members to personally email me.*
*Thanks*
*Rahul Deshmukh*
On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Sudhanwa Jogalekar < sudhanwa.com@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 3:47 PM Subhashish Panigrahi < psubhashish@gmail.com> wrote:
Just a technical clarification - Asaf copied Rahul in his first emai so he must have received the email. I have copied Rahul again. In worst case scenario (if he is not there in the mailing list), others from the chapter board would have informed him. It’s very hard to believe that the discussion has gone so far without Rahul not being aware Also, it’s important for movement partner reps to be on mailing lists of their own country.
My bad. Haven't noticed Rahul is also marked in the mails.
Sorry, I don’t find the argument — that Rahul hasn’t replied back because he isn’t there in the mailing list — a strong one.
Completely agree that he should reply.
Regards -Sudhanwa
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
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Comrade Satdeep,
Respect one's personal privacy. You can approach CIS-A2K or Mr Deshmukh and WMIN and know who invited. Rest, report and documentation has already been shared. You can also write on the discussion page on Meta where report has been shared and find out, if you really want an individual's name public. I am not convinced why an international volunteers name need to be called.
You are not even an elected member at Affcom, if my memory serves me correctly. You did not hold any work experience which was written as mandatory for the office you are holding. I am not sure if you shared any report for the Hindi contractual job. You want to discuss everything about you on a personal mail.
Why the difference?
Abhinav
On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 9:35 PM Satdeep Gill, satdeepgill@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Rahul,
It's very sad to hear about your loss. I totally understand how difficult it must have been for you and rest of your family.
Thanks a lot responding to this thread. I understand your request to personally email you but there are many unanswered questions such as information about the inviting organization, reporting etc. in this thread and it would be better if you can answer all the questions one by one in one email on this thread itself.
Let me know if you need any help in collecting all the questions in one email. I am available to help you. Otherwise, just go through the whole thread (which will provide you with enough context as well).
I agree with you that this discussion will help WMIN and the larger wikimedia community as well. It will also help us ensure more transparency in our processes.
Looking forward to hear from you! Thank you once again for taking out some time to reply here. I believe you must not be fully available yet. So, take your time and respond whenever you can in the coming weeks.
Best Satdeep
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 7:09 PM Rahul Deshmukh < rahuldeshmukh101@wikimedia.in> wrote:
*Dear all,*
*I am extremely sorry to inform you that my younger cousin brother passed away last Friday from severe medical complications. He was just 38 and had been hospitalised for several weeks in critical stage. *
*Being engrossed in the family issue I was not able to reply the thread for which I am extremely sorry.*
*Regarding the issue as discussed in the thread I had requested for sponsorship with all needful information from external funding agency CIS, and CIS agreed to it. Wikimedia India did not spend any fund from its account. *
*However this discussion will be helpful for Wikimedia India while disseminating WMIN’s funds in future. *
*In case someone wants any other information in this regard I would request community members to personally email me.*
*Thanks*
*Rahul Deshmukh*
On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Sudhanwa Jogalekar < sudhanwa.com@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 3:47 PM Subhashish Panigrahi < psubhashish@gmail.com> wrote:
Just a technical clarification - Asaf copied Rahul in his first emai so he must have received the email. I have copied Rahul again. In worst case scenario (if he is not there in the mailing list), others from the chapter board would have informed him. It’s very hard to believe that the discussion has gone so far without Rahul not being aware Also, it’s important for movement partner reps to be on mailing lists of their own country.
My bad. Haven't noticed Rahul is also marked in the mails.
Sorry, I don’t find the argument — that Rahul hasn’t replied back because he isn’t there in the mailing list — a strong one.
Completely agree that he should reply.
Regards -Sudhanwa
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
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<Just a random observation>
Dear Abhinav,
I feel you have been overly enthusiastic in responding to the mails in this thread. I clearly don't find *anything* personal and offensive in Satdeep's email. That was a totally uncalled for attack on him. It is indeed true that Rahul must answer a few questions raised in this thread *himself*. I strongly suggest that we let Rahul address all the concerns himself in this thread once and for all. I don't expect your reply to this mail and hope you don't too. It's not necessary.
Thanks Srikar
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:19 PM Abhinav srivastava abhinav619@gmail.com wrote:
Comrade Satdeep,
Respect one's personal privacy. You can approach CIS-A2K or Mr Deshmukh and WMIN and know who invited. Rest, report and documentation has already been shared. You can also write on the discussion page on Meta where report has been shared and find out, if you really want an individual's name public. I am not convinced why an international volunteers name need to be called.
You are not even an elected member at Affcom, if my memory serves me correctly. You did not hold any work experience which was written as mandatory for the office you are holding. I am not sure if you shared any report for the Hindi contractual job. You want to discuss everything about you on a personal mail.
Why the difference?
Abhinav
On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 9:35 PM Satdeep Gill, satdeepgill@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Rahul,
It's very sad to hear about your loss. I totally understand how difficult it must have been for you and rest of your family.
Thanks a lot responding to this thread. I understand your request to personally email you but there are many unanswered questions such as information about the inviting organization, reporting etc. in this thread and it would be better if you can answer all the questions one by one in one email on this thread itself.
Let me know if you need any help in collecting all the questions in one email. I am available to help you. Otherwise, just go through the whole thread (which will provide you with enough context as well).
I agree with you that this discussion will help WMIN and the larger wikimedia community as well. It will also help us ensure more transparency in our processes.
Looking forward to hear from you! Thank you once again for taking out some time to reply here. I believe you must not be fully available yet. So, take your time and respond whenever you can in the coming weeks.
Best Satdeep
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 7:09 PM Rahul Deshmukh < rahuldeshmukh101@wikimedia.in> wrote:
*Dear all,*
*I am extremely sorry to inform you that my younger cousin brother passed away last Friday from severe medical complications. He was just 38 and had been hospitalised for several weeks in critical stage. *
*Being engrossed in the family issue I was not able to reply the thread for which I am extremely sorry.*
*Regarding the issue as discussed in the thread I had requested for sponsorship with all needful information from external funding agency CIS, and CIS agreed to it. Wikimedia India did not spend any fund from its account. *
*However this discussion will be helpful for Wikimedia India while disseminating WMIN’s funds in future. *
*In case someone wants any other information in this regard I would request community members to personally email me.*
*Thanks*
*Rahul Deshmukh*
On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Sudhanwa Jogalekar < sudhanwa.com@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 3:47 PM Subhashish Panigrahi < psubhashish@gmail.com> wrote:
Just a technical clarification - Asaf copied Rahul in his first emai so he must have received the email. I have copied Rahul again. In worst case scenario (if he is not there in the mailing list), others from the chapter board would have informed him. It’s very hard to believe that the discussion has gone so far without Rahul not being aware Also, it’s important for movement partner reps to be on mailing lists of their own country.
My bad. Haven't noticed Rahul is also marked in the mails.
Sorry, I don’t find the argument — that Rahul hasn’t replied back because he isn’t there in the mailing list — a strong one.
Completely agree that he should reply.
Regards -Sudhanwa
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
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It is necessary my friend. Name game business is no sign of maturity. Rest, report has already been shared.
Affcom member who is selected and not elected showing biases concerns me. This chapter only made him a featured wikimedians and assisted him and his friends. His friend has also acknowledged the help on this thread when EC members paid from their pocket to support him. He still hasn't finished the report but we don't do sensationalism.
http://wiki.wikimedia.in/Equipment_Lending_and_Community_Support/Report/2016...
Post Script : Just a general though based on today morning newspapers. India has become a hub of online trolling where one asks the other to respond. I am happy they are restricted to social media and not us here.
I personally respect you for your work on en Wikipedia and also helping the chapter. I will not reply if you feel so. Suggestion taken.
Abhinav
On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 10:34 PM Srikar Kashyap Pulipaka, < srikar.kashyap@gmail.com> wrote:
<Just a random observation>
Dear Abhinav,
I feel you have been overly enthusiastic in responding to the mails in this thread. I clearly don't find *anything* personal and offensive in Satdeep's email. That was a totally uncalled for attack on him. It is indeed true that Rahul must answer a few questions raised in this thread *himself*. I strongly suggest that we let Rahul address all the concerns himself in this thread once and for all. I don't expect your reply to this mail and hope you don't too. It's not necessary.
Thanks Srikar
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:19 PM Abhinav srivastava abhinav619@gmail.com wrote:
Comrade Satdeep,
Respect one's personal privacy. You can approach CIS-A2K or Mr Deshmukh and WMIN and know who invited. Rest, report and documentation has already been shared. You can also write on the discussion page on Meta where report has been shared and find out, if you really want an individual's name public. I am not convinced why an international volunteers name need to be called.
You are not even an elected member at Affcom, if my memory serves me correctly. You did not hold any work experience which was written as mandatory for the office you are holding. I am not sure if you shared any report for the Hindi contractual job. You want to discuss everything about you on a personal mail.
Why the difference?
Abhinav
On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 9:35 PM Satdeep Gill, satdeepgill@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Rahul,
It's very sad to hear about your loss. I totally understand how difficult it must have been for you and rest of your family.
Thanks a lot responding to this thread. I understand your request to personally email you but there are many unanswered questions such as information about the inviting organization, reporting etc. in this thread and it would be better if you can answer all the questions one by one in one email on this thread itself.
Let me know if you need any help in collecting all the questions in one email. I am available to help you. Otherwise, just go through the whole thread (which will provide you with enough context as well).
I agree with you that this discussion will help WMIN and the larger wikimedia community as well. It will also help us ensure more transparency in our processes.
Looking forward to hear from you! Thank you once again for taking out some time to reply here. I believe you must not be fully available yet. So, take your time and respond whenever you can in the coming weeks.
Best Satdeep
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 7:09 PM Rahul Deshmukh < rahuldeshmukh101@wikimedia.in> wrote:
*Dear all,*
*I am extremely sorry to inform you that my younger cousin brother passed away last Friday from severe medical complications. He was just 38 and had been hospitalised for several weeks in critical stage. *
*Being engrossed in the family issue I was not able to reply the thread for which I am extremely sorry.*
*Regarding the issue as discussed in the thread I had requested for sponsorship with all needful information from external funding agency CIS, and CIS agreed to it. Wikimedia India did not spend any fund from its account. *
*However this discussion will be helpful for Wikimedia India while disseminating WMIN’s funds in future. *
*In case someone wants any other information in this regard I would request community members to personally email me.*
*Thanks*
*Rahul Deshmukh*
On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Sudhanwa Jogalekar < sudhanwa.com@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 3:47 PM Subhashish Panigrahi < psubhashish@gmail.com> wrote:
Just a technical clarification - Asaf copied Rahul in his first emai so he must have received the email. I have copied Rahul again. In worst case scenario (if he is not there in the mailing list), others from the chapter board would have informed him. It’s very hard to believe that the discussion has gone so far without Rahul not being aware Also, it’s important for movement partner reps to be on mailing lists of their own country.
My bad. Haven't noticed Rahul is also marked in the mails.
Sorry, I don’t find the argument — that Rahul hasn’t replied back because he isn’t there in the mailing list — a strong one.
Completely agree that he should reply.
Regards -Sudhanwa
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
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Dear Abhinav,
It is quite sad that I'm having this conversation with a wikimedian of your stature. Satdeep is not the only one waiting for Rahul's responses. Please use your diversionary tactics elsewhere. If you truly believe Satdeep's credentials are dubious, use the appropriate forum to get it solved. This mail thread is *exclusively *about this discrepancy. Isn't it surprising that whenever a person (be it Bodhi, Satdeep) raises a genuine question about this issue, you suddenly start talking about their history and actions. You might think that it's an intelligent movie aimed at shutting them down, but you are only enhancing the suspicions of the community.
I really don't care if you respect my work or not. This thread neither deals with my contribs nor Satdeep's credentials. This is clearly getting out of hand Abhinav. You are only making a fool out of yourself by repeatedly threatening everyone aggressively. I repeat, bringing up a volunteer's history or actions in this thread is not acceptable. I sense you will continue to do so despite so many people already advising you to do otherwise, I leave the decision to you.
Thanks, Srikar
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:49 PM Abhinav srivastava abhinav619@gmail.com wrote:
It is necessary my friend. Name game business is no sign of maturity. Rest, report has already been shared.
Affcom member who is selected and not elected showing biases concerns me. This chapter only made him a featured wikimedians and assisted him and his friends. His friend has also acknowledged the help on this thread when EC members paid from their pocket to support him. He still hasn't finished the report but we don't do sensationalism.
http://wiki.wikimedia.in/Equipment_Lending_and_Community_Support/Report/2016...
Post Script : Just a general though based on today morning newspapers. India has become a hub of online trolling where one asks the other to respond. I am happy they are restricted to social media and not us here.
I personally respect you for your work on en Wikipedia and also helping the chapter. I will not reply if you feel so. Suggestion taken.
Abhinav
On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 10:34 PM Srikar Kashyap Pulipaka, < srikar.kashyap@gmail.com> wrote:
<Just a random observation>
Dear Abhinav,
I feel you have been overly enthusiastic in responding to the mails in this thread. I clearly don't find *anything* personal and offensive in Satdeep's email. That was a totally uncalled for attack on him. It is indeed true that Rahul must answer a few questions raised in this thread *himself*. I strongly suggest that we let Rahul address all the concerns himself in this thread once and for all. I don't expect your reply to this mail and hope you don't too. It's not necessary.
Thanks Srikar
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:19 PM Abhinav srivastava abhinav619@gmail.com wrote:
Comrade Satdeep,
Respect one's personal privacy. You can approach CIS-A2K or Mr Deshmukh and WMIN and know who invited. Rest, report and documentation has already been shared. You can also write on the discussion page on Meta where report has been shared and find out, if you really want an individual's name public. I am not convinced why an international volunteers name need to be called.
You are not even an elected member at Affcom, if my memory serves me correctly. You did not hold any work experience which was written as mandatory for the office you are holding. I am not sure if you shared any report for the Hindi contractual job. You want to discuss everything about you on a personal mail.
Why the difference?
Abhinav
On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 9:35 PM Satdeep Gill, satdeepgill@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Rahul,
It's very sad to hear about your loss. I totally understand how difficult it must have been for you and rest of your family.
Thanks a lot responding to this thread. I understand your request to personally email you but there are many unanswered questions such as information about the inviting organization, reporting etc. in this thread and it would be better if you can answer all the questions one by one in one email on this thread itself.
Let me know if you need any help in collecting all the questions in one email. I am available to help you. Otherwise, just go through the whole thread (which will provide you with enough context as well).
I agree with you that this discussion will help WMIN and the larger wikimedia community as well. It will also help us ensure more transparency in our processes.
Looking forward to hear from you! Thank you once again for taking out some time to reply here. I believe you must not be fully available yet. So, take your time and respond whenever you can in the coming weeks.
Best Satdeep
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 7:09 PM Rahul Deshmukh < rahuldeshmukh101@wikimedia.in> wrote:
*Dear all,*
*I am extremely sorry to inform you that my younger cousin brother passed away last Friday from severe medical complications. He was just 38 and had been hospitalised for several weeks in critical stage. *
*Being engrossed in the family issue I was not able to reply the thread for which I am extremely sorry.*
*Regarding the issue as discussed in the thread I had requested for sponsorship with all needful information from external funding agency CIS, and CIS agreed to it. Wikimedia India did not spend any fund from its account. *
*However this discussion will be helpful for Wikimedia India while disseminating WMIN’s funds in future. *
*In case someone wants any other information in this regard I would request community members to personally email me.*
*Thanks*
*Rahul Deshmukh*
On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Sudhanwa Jogalekar < sudhanwa.com@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 3:47 PM Subhashish Panigrahi < psubhashish@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just a technical clarification - Asaf copied Rahul in his first emai > so he must have received the email. I have copied Rahul again. In worst > case scenario (if he is not there in the mailing list), others from the > chapter board would have informed him. It’s very hard to believe that the > discussion has gone so far without Rahul not being aware Also, it’s > important for movement partner reps to be on mailing lists of their own > country. >
My bad. Haven't noticed Rahul is also marked in the mails.
> > Sorry, I don’t find the argument — that Rahul hasn’t replied back > because he isn’t there in the mailing list — a strong one. >
Completely agree that he should reply.
Regards -Sudhanwa
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Perhaps it would be advisable to hear from Mr Asaf Bartov and if we can throw some light.
Whether best practices call for taking name publicly or should the concerned persons approach CIS and WMIN and get the details.
Abhinav On Thursday, September 13, 2018, Abhinav srivastava abhinav619@gmail.com wrote:
It is necessary my friend. Name game business is no sign of maturity. Rest, report has already been shared.
Affcom member who is selected and not elected showing biases concerns me. This chapter only made him a featured wikimedians and assisted him and his friends. His friend has also acknowledged the help on this thread when EC members paid from their pocket to support him. He still hasn't finished the report but we don't do sensationalism.
http://wiki.wikimedia.in/Equipment_Lending_and_ Community_Support/Report/2016/Bodhisattwa
Post Script : Just a general though based on today morning newspapers. India has become a hub of online trolling where one asks the other to respond. I am happy they are restricted to social media and not us here.
I personally respect you for your work on en Wikipedia and also helping the chapter. I will not reply if you feel so. Suggestion taken.
Abhinav
On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 10:34 PM Srikar Kashyap Pulipaka, < srikar.kashyap@gmail.com> wrote:
<Just a random observation>
Dear Abhinav,
I feel you have been overly enthusiastic in responding to the mails in this thread. I clearly don't find *anything* personal and offensive in Satdeep's email. That was a totally uncalled for attack on him. It is indeed true that Rahul must answer a few questions raised in this thread *himself*. I strongly suggest that we let Rahul address all the concerns himself in this thread once and for all. I don't expect your reply to this mail and hope you don't too. It's not necessary.
Thanks Srikar
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:19 PM Abhinav srivastava abhinav619@gmail.com wrote:
Comrade Satdeep,
Respect one's personal privacy. You can approach CIS-A2K or Mr Deshmukh and WMIN and know who invited. Rest, report and documentation has already been shared. You can also write on the discussion page on Meta where report has been shared and find out, if you really want an individual's name public. I am not convinced why an international volunteers name need to be called.
You are not even an elected member at Affcom, if my memory serves me correctly. You did not hold any work experience which was written as mandatory for the office you are holding. I am not sure if you shared any report for the Hindi contractual job. You want to discuss everything about you on a personal mail.
Why the difference?
Abhinav
On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 9:35 PM Satdeep Gill, satdeepgill@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Rahul,
It's very sad to hear about your loss. I totally understand how difficult it must have been for you and rest of your family.
Thanks a lot responding to this thread. I understand your request to personally email you but there are many unanswered questions such as information about the inviting organization, reporting etc. in this thread and it would be better if you can answer all the questions one by one in one email on this thread itself.
Let me know if you need any help in collecting all the questions in one email. I am available to help you. Otherwise, just go through the whole thread (which will provide you with enough context as well).
I agree with you that this discussion will help WMIN and the larger wikimedia community as well. It will also help us ensure more transparency in our processes.
Looking forward to hear from you! Thank you once again for taking out some time to reply here. I believe you must not be fully available yet. So, take your time and respond whenever you can in the coming weeks.
Best Satdeep
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 7:09 PM Rahul Deshmukh < rahuldeshmukh101@wikimedia.in> wrote:
*Dear all,*
*I am extremely sorry to inform you that my younger cousin brother passed away last Friday from severe medical complications. He was just 38 and had been hospitalised for several weeks in critical stage. *
*Being engrossed in the family issue I was not able to reply the thread for which I am extremely sorry.*
*Regarding the issue as discussed in the thread I had requested for sponsorship with all needful information from external funding agency CIS, and CIS agreed to it. Wikimedia India did not spend any fund from its account. *
*However this discussion will be helpful for Wikimedia India while disseminating WMIN’s funds in future. *
*In case someone wants any other information in this regard I would request community members to personally email me.*
*Thanks*
*Rahul Deshmukh*
On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Sudhanwa Jogalekar < sudhanwa.com@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 3:47 PM Subhashish Panigrahi < psubhashish@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just a technical clarification - Asaf copied Rahul in his first emai > so he must have received the email. I have copied Rahul again. In worst > case scenario (if he is not there in the mailing list), others from the > chapter board would have informed him. It’s very hard to believe that the > discussion has gone so far without Rahul not being aware Also, it’s > important for movement partner reps to be on mailing lists of their own > country. >
My bad. Haven't noticed Rahul is also marked in the mails.
> > Sorry, I don’t find the argument — that Rahul hasn’t replied back > because he isn’t there in the mailing list — a strong one. >
Completely agree that he should reply.
Regards -Sudhanwa
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As Rahul is going through a huge personal crisis, it is humane to give him time to recover. Rahul, sorry for your loss and deepest condolences to the close ones.
That said, it is important to discuss a few things publicly that would help clear some air and strengthen the transparency. Not everything needs to be discussed privately though some should be. This discussion can be parked for sometime until Rahul recovers from grief. But the impulsive reaction to Satdeep's email is uncalled for. No need to discuss what his role is in different organizations/groups that he works for in whatsoever capacity. Such discussions could not just dilute the real matter of this thread but also potentially create bad breath between members of the community. Rahul is a president of a national-level chapter that represents the Indian Wikimedia community. So, it is important that he responds in that capacity when he is ready. There is nothing personal here (though many discussions have been dragged that way).
Abhinav, as a fellow Wikipedian and a friend, my humble request to you would be to treat other members in the list respectfully (and the same request to all others). You are a Wikipedian and a former office bearer so none knows about this better than you.
Subhashish
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 11:14 PM, Abhinav srivastava abhinav619@gmail.com wrote:
Perhaps it would be advisable to hear from Mr Asaf Bartov and if we can throw some light.
Whether best practices call for taking name publicly or should the concerned persons approach CIS and WMIN and get the details.
Abhinav
On Thursday, September 13, 2018, Abhinav srivastava abhinav619@gmail.com wrote:
It is necessary my friend. Name game business is no sign of maturity. Rest, report has already been shared.
Affcom member who is selected and not elected showing biases concerns me. This chapter only made him a featured wikimedians and assisted him and his friends. His friend has also acknowledged the help on this thread when EC members paid from their pocket to support him. He still hasn't finished the report but we don't do sensationalism.
http://wiki.wikimedia.in/Equipment_Lending_and_Community_ Support/Report/2016/Bodhisattwa
Post Script : Just a general though based on today morning newspapers. India has become a hub of online trolling where one asks the other to respond. I am happy they are restricted to social media and not us here.
I personally respect you for your work on en Wikipedia and also helping the chapter. I will not reply if you feel so. Suggestion taken.
Abhinav
On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 10:34 PM Srikar Kashyap Pulipaka, < srikar.kashyap@gmail.com> wrote:
<Just a random observation>
Dear Abhinav,
I feel you have been overly enthusiastic in responding to the mails in this thread. I clearly don't find *anything* personal and offensive in Satdeep's email. That was a totally uncalled for attack on him. It is indeed true that Rahul must answer a few questions raised in this thread *himself*. I strongly suggest that we let Rahul address all the concerns himself in this thread once and for all. I don't expect your reply to this mail and hope you don't too. It's not necessary.
Thanks Srikar
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:19 PM Abhinav srivastava < abhinav619@gmail.com> wrote:
Comrade Satdeep,
Respect one's personal privacy. You can approach CIS-A2K or Mr Deshmukh and WMIN and know who invited. Rest, report and documentation has already been shared. You can also write on the discussion page on Meta where report has been shared and find out, if you really want an individual's name public. I am not convinced why an international volunteers name need to be called.
You are not even an elected member at Affcom, if my memory serves me correctly. You did not hold any work experience which was written as mandatory for the office you are holding. I am not sure if you shared any report for the Hindi contractual job. You want to discuss everything about you on a personal mail.
Why the difference?
Abhinav
On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 9:35 PM Satdeep Gill, satdeepgill@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Rahul,
It's very sad to hear about your loss. I totally understand how difficult it must have been for you and rest of your family.
Thanks a lot responding to this thread. I understand your request to personally email you but there are many unanswered questions such as information about the inviting organization, reporting etc. in this thread and it would be better if you can answer all the questions one by one in one email on this thread itself.
Let me know if you need any help in collecting all the questions in one email. I am available to help you. Otherwise, just go through the whole thread (which will provide you with enough context as well).
I agree with you that this discussion will help WMIN and the larger wikimedia community as well. It will also help us ensure more transparency in our processes.
Looking forward to hear from you! Thank you once again for taking out some time to reply here. I believe you must not be fully available yet. So, take your time and respond whenever you can in the coming weeks.
Best Satdeep
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 7:09 PM Rahul Deshmukh < rahuldeshmukh101@wikimedia.in> wrote:
*Dear all,*
*I am extremely sorry to inform you that my younger cousin brother passed away last Friday from severe medical complications. He was just 38 and had been hospitalised for several weeks in critical stage. *
*Being engrossed in the family issue I was not able to reply the thread for which I am extremely sorry.*
*Regarding the issue as discussed in the thread I had requested for sponsorship with all needful information from external funding agency CIS, and CIS agreed to it. Wikimedia India did not spend any fund from its account. *
*However this discussion will be helpful for Wikimedia India while disseminating WMIN’s funds in future. *
*In case someone wants any other information in this regard I would request community members to personally email me.*
*Thanks*
*Rahul Deshmukh*
On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Sudhanwa Jogalekar < sudhanwa.com@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 3:47 PM Subhashish Panigrahi < > psubhashish@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Just a technical clarification - Asaf copied Rahul in his first >> emai so he must have received the email. I have copied Rahul again. In >> worst case scenario (if he is not there in the mailing list), others from >> the chapter board would have informed him. It’s very hard to believe that >> the discussion has gone so far without Rahul not being aware Also, it’s >> important for movement partner reps to be on mailing lists of their own >> country. >> > > My bad. Haven't noticed Rahul is also marked in the mails. > > >> >> Sorry, I don’t find the argument — that Rahul hasn’t replied back >> because he isn’t there in the mailing list — a strong one. >> > > Completely agree that he should reply. > > Regards > -Sudhanwa > > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimediaindia-l mailing list > Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l > > _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
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Dear All,
I have spoken to Satdeep and listened to his concerns. Regret for any inconveniences stemmed at my end last night. Thank you Srikar and Subhashish for writing.
Abhinav
On Fri 14 Sep, 2018, 12:09 AM Subhashish Panigrahi, psubhashish@gmail.com wrote:
As Rahul is going through a huge personal crisis, it is humane to give him time to recover. Rahul, sorry for your loss and deepest condolences to the close ones.
That said, it is important to discuss a few things publicly that would help clear some air and strengthen the transparency. Not everything needs to be discussed privately though some should be. This discussion can be parked for sometime until Rahul recovers from grief. But the impulsive reaction to Satdeep's email is uncalled for. No need to discuss what his role is in different organizations/groups that he works for in whatsoever capacity. Such discussions could not just dilute the real matter of this thread but also potentially create bad breath between members of the community. Rahul is a president of a national-level chapter that represents the Indian Wikimedia community. So, it is important that he responds in that capacity when he is ready. There is nothing personal here (though many discussions have been dragged that way).
Abhinav, as a fellow Wikipedian and a friend, my humble request to you would be to treat other members in the list respectfully (and the same request to all others). You are a Wikipedian and a former office bearer so none knows about this better than you.
Subhashish
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 11:14 PM, Abhinav srivastava <abhinav619@gmail.com
wrote:
Perhaps it would be advisable to hear from Mr Asaf Bartov and if we can throw some light.
Whether best practices call for taking name publicly or should the concerned persons approach CIS and WMIN and get the details.
Abhinav
On Thursday, September 13, 2018, Abhinav srivastava abhinav619@gmail.com wrote:
It is necessary my friend. Name game business is no sign of maturity. Rest, report has already been shared.
Affcom member who is selected and not elected showing biases concerns me. This chapter only made him a featured wikimedians and assisted him and his friends. His friend has also acknowledged the help on this thread when EC members paid from their pocket to support him. He still hasn't finished the report but we don't do sensationalism.
http://wiki.wikimedia.in/Equipment_Lending_and_Community_Support/Report/2016...
Post Script : Just a general though based on today morning newspapers. India has become a hub of online trolling where one asks the other to respond. I am happy they are restricted to social media and not us here.
I personally respect you for your work on en Wikipedia and also helping the chapter. I will not reply if you feel so. Suggestion taken.
Abhinav
On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 10:34 PM Srikar Kashyap Pulipaka, < srikar.kashyap@gmail.com> wrote:
<Just a random observation>
Dear Abhinav,
I feel you have been overly enthusiastic in responding to the mails in this thread. I clearly don't find *anything* personal and offensive in Satdeep's email. That was a totally uncalled for attack on him. It is indeed true that Rahul must answer a few questions raised in this thread *himself*. I strongly suggest that we let Rahul address all the concerns himself in this thread once and for all. I don't expect your reply to this mail and hope you don't too. It's not necessary.
Thanks Srikar
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:19 PM Abhinav srivastava < abhinav619@gmail.com> wrote:
Comrade Satdeep,
Respect one's personal privacy. You can approach CIS-A2K or Mr Deshmukh and WMIN and know who invited. Rest, report and documentation has already been shared. You can also write on the discussion page on Meta where report has been shared and find out, if you really want an individual's name public. I am not convinced why an international volunteers name need to be called.
You are not even an elected member at Affcom, if my memory serves me correctly. You did not hold any work experience which was written as mandatory for the office you are holding. I am not sure if you shared any report for the Hindi contractual job. You want to discuss everything about you on a personal mail.
Why the difference?
Abhinav
On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 9:35 PM Satdeep Gill, satdeepgill@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Rahul,
It's very sad to hear about your loss. I totally understand how difficult it must have been for you and rest of your family.
Thanks a lot responding to this thread. I understand your request to personally email you but there are many unanswered questions such as information about the inviting organization, reporting etc. in this thread and it would be better if you can answer all the questions one by one in one email on this thread itself.
Let me know if you need any help in collecting all the questions in one email. I am available to help you. Otherwise, just go through the whole thread (which will provide you with enough context as well).
I agree with you that this discussion will help WMIN and the larger wikimedia community as well. It will also help us ensure more transparency in our processes.
Looking forward to hear from you! Thank you once again for taking out some time to reply here. I believe you must not be fully available yet. So, take your time and respond whenever you can in the coming weeks.
Best Satdeep
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 7:09 PM Rahul Deshmukh < rahuldeshmukh101@wikimedia.in> wrote:
> *Dear all,* > > *I am extremely sorry to inform you that my younger cousin brother > passed away last Friday from severe medical complications. He was just 38 > and had been hospitalised for several weeks in critical stage. * > > *Being engrossed in the family issue I was not able to reply the > thread for which I am extremely sorry.* > > *Regarding the issue as discussed in the thread I had requested for > sponsorship with all needful information from external funding agency CIS, > and CIS agreed to it. Wikimedia India did not spend any fund from its > account. * > > *However this discussion will be helpful for Wikimedia India while > disseminating WMIN’s funds in future. * > > *In case someone wants any other information in this regard I would > request community members to personally email me.* > > *Thanks* > > *Rahul Deshmukh* > > > > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Sudhanwa Jogalekar < > sudhanwa.com@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 3:47 PM Subhashish Panigrahi < >> psubhashish@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Just a technical clarification - Asaf copied Rahul in his first >>> emai so he must have received the email. I have copied Rahul again. In >>> worst case scenario (if he is not there in the mailing list), others from >>> the chapter board would have informed him. It’s very hard to believe that >>> the discussion has gone so far without Rahul not being aware Also, it’s >>> important for movement partner reps to be on mailing lists of their own >>> country. >>> >> >> My bad. Haven't noticed Rahul is also marked in the mails. >> >> >>> >>> Sorry, I don’t find the argument — that Rahul hasn’t replied back >>> because he isn’t there in the mailing list — a strong one. >>> >> >> Completely agree that he should reply. >> >> Regards >> -Sudhanwa >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Wikimediaindia-l mailing list > Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
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Wikimedia India is an Indian organization, and the Wikimedia Foundation does not have a say in its internal governance. It does, of course, have great *influence*, insofar as it is historically its biggest funder, and in that it can revoke its recognition as a Wikimedia affiliate. I state this just for clarity, so that no one is confused about WMF's role in this discussion. This is a matter for Wikimedia India and the communities in India which it exists to serve, and not a WMF matter.
However, since you ask me directly, Abhinav, yes, I think this public inquiry (which was brought up respectfully and patiently, and only became shrill because of *your* ad hominem responses) is perfectly acceptable, and an office bearer's accountability is a duty that cannot be argued away by invoking "privacy". Rahul's travel was not private, but made *as* an office bearer, and there can be no privacy concern about it.
I agree with Srikar: your repeated tactic of attempting to discredit the people who raised concerns is inappropriate, aggressive, uncollegial, unhelpful, and for those not convinced of your good faith, also probably suggesting an attempt to cover something up or change the subject by any means necessary.
Now, *I myself* trust there is no reason to cover anything up. As I already said earlier in this thread, if a mistake was made, it can be openly admitted; in my experience Wikimedians are exceptionally open and forgiving when faced with honest admission of error or bad judgment. And if no mistake was made, then clarifications can be offered and understanding and trust regained.
Rahul has now explained the circumstances of his non-responsiveness, and people have expressed understanding and patience, while declining his suggestion that this should be discussed privately. Rahul now can take the time he needs to explain his actions to the community, which is the constituency he is to serve.
Cheers,
A.
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 20:44 Abhinav srivastava abhinav619@gmail.com wrote:
Perhaps it would be advisable to hear from Mr Asaf Bartov and if we can throw some light.
Whether best practices call for taking name publicly or should the concerned persons approach CIS and WMIN and get the details.
Abhinav On Thursday, September 13, 2018, Abhinav srivastava abhinav619@gmail.com wrote:
It is necessary my friend. Name game business is no sign of maturity. Rest, report has already been shared.
Affcom member who is selected and not elected showing biases concerns me. This chapter only made him a featured wikimedians and assisted him and his friends. His friend has also acknowledged the help on this thread when EC members paid from their pocket to support him. He still hasn't finished the report but we don't do sensationalism.
http://wiki.wikimedia.in/Equipment_Lending_and_Community_Support/Report/2016...
Post Script : Just a general though based on today morning newspapers. India has become a hub of online trolling where one asks the other to respond. I am happy they are restricted to social media and not us here.
I personally respect you for your work on en Wikipedia and also helping the chapter. I will not reply if you feel so. Suggestion taken.
Abhinav
On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 10:34 PM Srikar Kashyap Pulipaka, < srikar.kashyap@gmail.com> wrote:
<Just a random observation>
Dear Abhinav,
I feel you have been overly enthusiastic in responding to the mails in this thread. I clearly don't find *anything* personal and offensive in Satdeep's email. That was a totally uncalled for attack on him. It is indeed true that Rahul must answer a few questions raised in this thread *himself*. I strongly suggest that we let Rahul address all the concerns himself in this thread once and for all. I don't expect your reply to this mail and hope you don't too. It's not necessary.
Thanks Srikar
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:19 PM Abhinav srivastava < abhinav619@gmail.com> wrote:
Comrade Satdeep,
Respect one's personal privacy. You can approach CIS-A2K or Mr Deshmukh and WMIN and know who invited. Rest, report and documentation has already been shared. You can also write on the discussion page on Meta where report has been shared and find out, if you really want an individual's name public. I am not convinced why an international volunteers name need to be called.
You are not even an elected member at Affcom, if my memory serves me correctly. You did not hold any work experience which was written as mandatory for the office you are holding. I am not sure if you shared any report for the Hindi contractual job. You want to discuss everything about you on a personal mail.
Why the difference?
Abhinav
On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 9:35 PM Satdeep Gill, satdeepgill@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Rahul,
It's very sad to hear about your loss. I totally understand how difficult it must have been for you and rest of your family.
Thanks a lot responding to this thread. I understand your request to personally email you but there are many unanswered questions such as information about the inviting organization, reporting etc. in this thread and it would be better if you can answer all the questions one by one in one email on this thread itself.
Let me know if you need any help in collecting all the questions in one email. I am available to help you. Otherwise, just go through the whole thread (which will provide you with enough context as well).
I agree with you that this discussion will help WMIN and the larger wikimedia community as well. It will also help us ensure more transparency in our processes.
Looking forward to hear from you! Thank you once again for taking out some time to reply here. I believe you must not be fully available yet. So, take your time and respond whenever you can in the coming weeks.
Best Satdeep
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 7:09 PM Rahul Deshmukh < rahuldeshmukh101@wikimedia.in> wrote:
*Dear all,*
*I am extremely sorry to inform you that my younger cousin brother passed away last Friday from severe medical complications. He was just 38 and had been hospitalised for several weeks in critical stage. *
*Being engrossed in the family issue I was not able to reply the thread for which I am extremely sorry.*
*Regarding the issue as discussed in the thread I had requested for sponsorship with all needful information from external funding agency CIS, and CIS agreed to it. Wikimedia India did not spend any fund from its account. *
*However this discussion will be helpful for Wikimedia India while disseminating WMIN’s funds in future. *
*In case someone wants any other information in this regard I would request community members to personally email me.*
*Thanks*
*Rahul Deshmukh*
On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Sudhanwa Jogalekar < sudhanwa.com@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 3:47 PM Subhashish Panigrahi < > psubhashish@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Just a technical clarification - Asaf copied Rahul in his first >> emai so he must have received the email. I have copied Rahul again. In >> worst case scenario (if he is not there in the mailing list), others from >> the chapter board would have informed him. It’s very hard to believe that >> the discussion has gone so far without Rahul not being aware Also, it’s >> important for movement partner reps to be on mailing lists of their own >> country. >> > > My bad. Haven't noticed Rahul is also marked in the mails. > > >> >> Sorry, I don’t find the argument — that Rahul hasn’t replied back >> because he isn’t there in the mailing list — a strong one. >> > > Completely agree that he should reply. > > Regards > -Sudhanwa > > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimediaindia-l mailing list > Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l > > _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
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Thank You Asaf Bartov for writing back!
On Fri 14 Sep, 2018, 3:33 PM Asaf Bartov, abartov@wikimedia.org wrote:
Wikimedia India is an Indian organization, and the Wikimedia Foundation does not have a say in its internal governance. It does, of course, have great *influence*, insofar as it is historically its biggest funder, and in that it can revoke its recognition as a Wikimedia affiliate. I state this just for clarity, so that no one is confused about WMF's role in this discussion. This is a matter for Wikimedia India and the communities in India which it exists to serve, and not a WMF matter.
However, since you ask me directly, Abhinav, yes, I think this public inquiry (which was brought up respectfully and patiently, and only became shrill because of *your* ad hominem responses) is perfectly acceptable, and an office bearer's accountability is a duty that cannot be argued away by invoking "privacy". Rahul's travel was not private, but made *as* an office bearer, and there can be no privacy concern about it.
I agree with Srikar: your repeated tactic of attempting to discredit the people who raised concerns is inappropriate, aggressive, uncollegial, unhelpful, and for those not convinced of your good faith, also probably suggesting an attempt to cover something up or change the subject by any means necessary.
Now, *I myself* trust there is no reason to cover anything up. As I already said earlier in this thread, if a mistake was made, it can be openly admitted; in my experience Wikimedians are exceptionally open and forgiving when faced with honest admission of error or bad judgment. And if no mistake was made, then clarifications can be offered and understanding and trust regained.
Rahul has now explained the circumstances of his non-responsiveness, and people have expressed understanding and patience, while declining his suggestion that this should be discussed privately. Rahul now can take the time he needs to explain his actions to the community, which is the constituency he is to serve.
Cheers,
A.
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 20:44 Abhinav srivastava abhinav619@gmail.com wrote:
Perhaps it would be advisable to hear from Mr Asaf Bartov and if we can throw some light.
Whether best practices call for taking name publicly or should the concerned persons approach CIS and WMIN and get the details.
Abhinav On Thursday, September 13, 2018, Abhinav srivastava abhinav619@gmail.com wrote:
It is necessary my friend. Name game business is no sign of maturity. Rest, report has already been shared.
Affcom member who is selected and not elected showing biases concerns me. This chapter only made him a featured wikimedians and assisted him and his friends. His friend has also acknowledged the help on this thread when EC members paid from their pocket to support him. He still hasn't finished the report but we don't do sensationalism.
http://wiki.wikimedia.in/Equipment_Lending_and_Community_Support/Report/2016...
Post Script : Just a general though based on today morning newspapers. India has become a hub of online trolling where one asks the other to respond. I am happy they are restricted to social media and not us here.
I personally respect you for your work on en Wikipedia and also helping the chapter. I will not reply if you feel so. Suggestion taken.
Abhinav
On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 10:34 PM Srikar Kashyap Pulipaka, < srikar.kashyap@gmail.com> wrote:
<Just a random observation>
Dear Abhinav,
I feel you have been overly enthusiastic in responding to the mails in this thread. I clearly don't find *anything* personal and offensive in Satdeep's email. That was a totally uncalled for attack on him. It is indeed true that Rahul must answer a few questions raised in this thread *himself*. I strongly suggest that we let Rahul address all the concerns himself in this thread once and for all. I don't expect your reply to this mail and hope you don't too. It's not necessary.
Thanks Srikar
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:19 PM Abhinav srivastava < abhinav619@gmail.com> wrote:
Comrade Satdeep,
Respect one's personal privacy. You can approach CIS-A2K or Mr Deshmukh and WMIN and know who invited. Rest, report and documentation has already been shared. You can also write on the discussion page on Meta where report has been shared and find out, if you really want an individual's name public. I am not convinced why an international volunteers name need to be called.
You are not even an elected member at Affcom, if my memory serves me correctly. You did not hold any work experience which was written as mandatory for the office you are holding. I am not sure if you shared any report for the Hindi contractual job. You want to discuss everything about you on a personal mail.
Why the difference?
Abhinav
On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 9:35 PM Satdeep Gill, satdeepgill@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Rahul,
It's very sad to hear about your loss. I totally understand how difficult it must have been for you and rest of your family.
Thanks a lot responding to this thread. I understand your request to personally email you but there are many unanswered questions such as information about the inviting organization, reporting etc. in this thread and it would be better if you can answer all the questions one by one in one email on this thread itself.
Let me know if you need any help in collecting all the questions in one email. I am available to help you. Otherwise, just go through the whole thread (which will provide you with enough context as well).
I agree with you that this discussion will help WMIN and the larger wikimedia community as well. It will also help us ensure more transparency in our processes.
Looking forward to hear from you! Thank you once again for taking out some time to reply here. I believe you must not be fully available yet. So, take your time and respond whenever you can in the coming weeks.
Best Satdeep
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 7:09 PM Rahul Deshmukh < rahuldeshmukh101@wikimedia.in> wrote:
> *Dear all,* > > *I am extremely sorry to inform you that my younger cousin brother > passed away last Friday from severe medical complications. He was just 38 > and had been hospitalised for several weeks in critical stage. * > > *Being engrossed in the family issue I was not able to reply the > thread for which I am extremely sorry.* > > *Regarding the issue as discussed in the thread I had requested for > sponsorship with all needful information from external funding agency CIS, > and CIS agreed to it. Wikimedia India did not spend any fund from its > account. * > > *However this discussion will be helpful for Wikimedia India while > disseminating WMIN’s funds in future. * > > *In case someone wants any other information in this regard I would > request community members to personally email me.* > > *Thanks* > > *Rahul Deshmukh* > > > > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Sudhanwa Jogalekar < > sudhanwa.com@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 3:47 PM Subhashish Panigrahi < >> psubhashish@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Just a technical clarification - Asaf copied Rahul in his first >>> emai so he must have received the email. I have copied Rahul again. In >>> worst case scenario (if he is not there in the mailing list), others from >>> the chapter board would have informed him. It’s very hard to believe that >>> the discussion has gone so far without Rahul not being aware Also, it’s >>> important for movement partner reps to be on mailing lists of their own >>> country. >>> >> >> My bad. Haven't noticed Rahul is also marked in the mails. >> >> >>> >>> Sorry, I don’t find the argument — that Rahul hasn’t replied back >>> because he isn’t there in the mailing list — a strong one. >>> >> >> Completely agree that he should reply. >> >> Regards >> -Sudhanwa >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Wikimediaindia-l mailing list > Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
> _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
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Good Evening!
Firstly, no attempts to deviate or dismantle the principal problem or replying with impulse. Yes, I am a public-spirited community member and this is truer for India Chapter. The reason I asked Asaf to revert on privacy because many issues like contracts are not disclosed to the general community and instead of we debating endlessly it is better to speak advice from an outside observer and speed up the process.
Post-Asaf’s response, I inquired with the Affiliates committee myself. *This is not to say Mr. Deshmukh should not reply, he indeed should to any concerns whatever community seeks to know*. Again, my public spirit asked me to do it, nothing else at all. I am not trying to bring deviations.
Mr. Frans Grijzenhout, Chair, The Netherland Chapter informs me that he invited Mr. Deshmukh for the meetup. He informed me that conflict management is a serious issue in the context such as Wikimedia France 2017. All information is already present on Wikimedia Meta. Here's the page with links to the minutes of the meetings, the discussion papers, and some statements in issues that concerns the global affiliate. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Affiliate_Chairpersons_meetings. Yohann has already shared this with the community on this thread before.
I did not realize that it was the same person who wrote on the Wikimania mailing list when this issue was raised. He had written,
“Hi Bodhisattewa, Please take into consideration that Rahul did more than
speaking for a few minutes during the chairs' meeting in Cape Town.
- He prepared a discussion note for this meeting about a sensitive topic.
- Rahul and me had several discussions (per skype and in person) in the
weeks preceding the actual meeting.
- Rahul presented his ideas during the meeting and was actively engaged in
the discussion.
- And in the end he got some home work as well: enhancing his note with the
outcomes of the discussion.
The contribution of Rahul was much appreciated.
Regards, Frans
“
Now one more concern that I find as being raised by a few community members when two EC members were present what was the need to send Mr. Deshmukh himself. On Wednesday, 8th August 2018 at 12:42 Indian Standard Time, Yohann had replied on behalf of the Chapter, “ The chapter has full faith and belief in all its board members in both, individual and collective levels. This invitation was to the particular individual based on his expertise in the chapter and in the movement. The chapter has never considered any of its board members unfit to represent it*.**”*
I further inquired about this issue with the Affiliates Committee. While Mr. Deshmukh was invited to speak on the Conflict Management the rules say, “The session is for *chairs* of chapters and thematic organizations *only*. You can delegate another member of your board if you cannot make it yourself ”
So yes, the rules do say that some other board member can be delegated this responsibility. To my understanding, the sentiments of the community were not recorded here. This blunder of not informing the community has perhaps turned in Mahatma Gandhi’s word, ‘*A Himalayan Blunder’*. While Yohann on behalf of Chapter has written that they make a note and would engage more effectively with the community in future and also assurance by CIS-A2K but we shouldn’t stop here. Discussions should be made on how to bring this transparency much more effectively. At last, if the community believes and required that Chapter should write a 7 letter word, ‘apology’ they shouldn’t be hesitant and write it straightaway.
Now not to deviate the topic but I also wanted to know from CIS-A2K, the sponsor myself. Which ledger were the funds allocated, whether from affiliates travel ledger or volunteers travel? Bodhisattwa had asked why the subsequent travel scholarship was not allocated to those in waiting subsequently. The Affiliates body could not provide clarity on this. 2016 Wiki Conference India editors had asked for the scholarship from CIS-A2K and they were awarded not keeping the waiting list criteria, also. I wish to propose a simple step suggestion if the waiting list members decline to attend Wikimania, cases for those invited to speak for a session (like Dr Manavpreet in 2017) can be provided the scholarship. Of course! on each such case merit of the visit needs to be quantified beforehand. Similarly, for steward meetings amongst others. I can float a white paper on how to quantify such metrics (not on this thread, I recognize it will deviate from the main issue) and community can share more inputs.
Anyways, I do not wish to write more and I will be selective and careful in responding as per some of the suggestions received on this thread so far. Since I had inquired myself so I thought of sharing. Please pardon if my messages have seemed to be hiding the principal problem and making others suspicious. Those were not my intentions and that is why I inquired myself.
Disclaimer: I have not spoken to any Wikimedia India office-bearers before approaching the Affiliates Committee or writing this mail.
Abhinav
On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 3:38 PM Abhinav srivastava abhinav619@gmail.com wrote:
Thank You Asaf Bartov for writing back!
On Fri 14 Sep, 2018, 3:33 PM Asaf Bartov, abartov@wikimedia.org wrote:
Wikimedia India is an Indian organization, and the Wikimedia Foundation does not have a say in its internal governance. It does, of course, have great *influence*, insofar as it is historically its biggest funder, and in that it can revoke its recognition as a Wikimedia affiliate. I state this just for clarity, so that no one is confused about WMF's role in this discussion. This is a matter for Wikimedia India and the communities in India which it exists to serve, and not a WMF matter.
However, since you ask me directly, Abhinav, yes, I think this public inquiry (which was brought up respectfully and patiently, and only became shrill because of *your* ad hominem responses) is perfectly acceptable, and an office bearer's accountability is a duty that cannot be argued away by invoking "privacy". Rahul's travel was not private, but made *as* an office bearer, and there can be no privacy concern about it.
I agree with Srikar: your repeated tactic of attempting to discredit the people who raised concerns is inappropriate, aggressive, uncollegial, unhelpful, and for those not convinced of your good faith, also probably suggesting an attempt to cover something up or change the subject by any means necessary.
Now, *I myself* trust there is no reason to cover anything up. As I already said earlier in this thread, if a mistake was made, it can be openly admitted; in my experience Wikimedians are exceptionally open and forgiving when faced with honest admission of error or bad judgment. And if no mistake was made, then clarifications can be offered and understanding and trust regained.
Rahul has now explained the circumstances of his non-responsiveness, and people have expressed understanding and patience, while declining his suggestion that this should be discussed privately. Rahul now can take the time he needs to explain his actions to the community, which is the constituency he is to serve.
Cheers,
A.
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 20:44 Abhinav srivastava abhinav619@gmail.com wrote:
Perhaps it would be advisable to hear from Mr Asaf Bartov and if we can throw some light.
Whether best practices call for taking name publicly or should the concerned persons approach CIS and WMIN and get the details.
Abhinav On Thursday, September 13, 2018, Abhinav srivastava < abhinav619@gmail.com> wrote:
It is necessary my friend. Name game business is no sign of maturity. Rest, report has already been shared.
Affcom member who is selected and not elected showing biases concerns me. This chapter only made him a featured wikimedians and assisted him and his friends. His friend has also acknowledged the help on this thread when EC members paid from their pocket to support him. He still hasn't finished the report but we don't do sensationalism.
http://wiki.wikimedia.in/Equipment_Lending_and_Community_Support/Report/2016...
Post Script : Just a general though based on today morning newspapers. India has become a hub of online trolling where one asks the other to respond. I am happy they are restricted to social media and not us here.
I personally respect you for your work on en Wikipedia and also helping the chapter. I will not reply if you feel so. Suggestion taken.
Abhinav
On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 10:34 PM Srikar Kashyap Pulipaka, < srikar.kashyap@gmail.com> wrote:
<Just a random observation>
Dear Abhinav,
I feel you have been overly enthusiastic in responding to the mails in this thread. I clearly don't find *anything* personal and offensive in Satdeep's email. That was a totally uncalled for attack on him. It is indeed true that Rahul must answer a few questions raised in this thread *himself*. I strongly suggest that we let Rahul address all the concerns himself in this thread once and for all. I don't expect your reply to this mail and hope you don't too. It's not necessary.
Thanks Srikar
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:19 PM Abhinav srivastava < abhinav619@gmail.com> wrote:
Comrade Satdeep,
Respect one's personal privacy. You can approach CIS-A2K or Mr Deshmukh and WMIN and know who invited. Rest, report and documentation has already been shared. You can also write on the discussion page on Meta where report has been shared and find out, if you really want an individual's name public. I am not convinced why an international volunteers name need to be called.
You are not even an elected member at Affcom, if my memory serves me correctly. You did not hold any work experience which was written as mandatory for the office you are holding. I am not sure if you shared any report for the Hindi contractual job. You want to discuss everything about you on a personal mail.
Why the difference?
Abhinav
On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 9:35 PM Satdeep Gill, satdeepgill@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi Rahul, > > It's very sad to hear about your loss. I totally understand how > difficult it must have been for you and rest of your family. > > Thanks a lot responding to this thread. I understand your request to > personally email you but there are many unanswered questions such as > information about the inviting organization, reporting etc. in this thread > and it would be better if you can answer all the questions one by one in > one email on this thread itself. > > Let me know if you need any help in collecting all the questions in > one email. I am available to help you. Otherwise, just go through the whole > thread (which will provide you with enough context as well). > > I agree with you that this discussion will help WMIN and the larger > wikimedia community as well. It will also help us ensure more transparency > in our processes. > > Looking forward to hear from you! Thank you once again for taking > out some time to reply here. I believe you must not be fully available yet. > So, take your time and respond whenever you can in the coming weeks. > > Best > Satdeep > > > On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 7:09 PM Rahul Deshmukh < > rahuldeshmukh101@wikimedia.in> wrote: > >> *Dear all,* >> >> *I am extremely sorry to inform you that my younger cousin brother >> passed away last Friday from severe medical complications. He was just 38 >> and had been hospitalised for several weeks in critical stage. * >> >> *Being engrossed in the family issue I was not able to reply the >> thread for which I am extremely sorry.* >> >> *Regarding the issue as discussed in the thread I had requested for >> sponsorship with all needful information from external funding agency CIS, >> and CIS agreed to it. Wikimedia India did not spend any fund from its >> account. * >> >> *However this discussion will be helpful for Wikimedia India while >> disseminating WMIN’s funds in future. * >> >> *In case someone wants any other information in this regard I >> would request community members to personally email me.* >> >> *Thanks* >> >> *Rahul Deshmukh* >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Sudhanwa Jogalekar < >> sudhanwa.com@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 3:47 PM Subhashish Panigrahi < >>> psubhashish@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Just a technical clarification - Asaf copied Rahul in his first >>>> emai so he must have received the email. I have copied Rahul again. In >>>> worst case scenario (if he is not there in the mailing list), others from >>>> the chapter board would have informed him. It’s very hard to believe that >>>> the discussion has gone so far without Rahul not being aware Also, it’s >>>> important for movement partner reps to be on mailing lists of their own >>>> country. >>>> >>> >>> My bad. Haven't noticed Rahul is also marked in the mails. >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Sorry, I don’t find the argument — that Rahul hasn’t replied back >>>> because he isn’t there in the mailing list — a strong one. >>>> >>> >>> Completely agree that he should reply. >>> >>> Regards >>> -Sudhanwa >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >>> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > Wikimediaindia-l mailing list > Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l > _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Hi Rahul,
This is a reminder for you to reply on this email thread. It's been more than 5 months and I was expecting a reply from you and I am guessing others were expecting it too. Kindly refer to my email dated 13th September 2018 in this thread.
- Satdeep
On Sun, 16 Sep, 2018, 4:27 PM Abhinav srivastava, abhinav619@gmail.com wrote:
Good Evening!
Firstly, no attempts to deviate or dismantle the principal problem or replying with impulse. Yes, I am a public-spirited community member and this is truer for India Chapter. The reason I asked Asaf to revert on privacy because many issues like contracts are not disclosed to the general community and instead of we debating endlessly it is better to speak advice from an outside observer and speed up the process.
Post-Asaf’s response, I inquired with the Affiliates committee myself. *This is not to say Mr. Deshmukh should not reply, he indeed should to any concerns whatever community seeks to know*. Again, my public spirit asked me to do it, nothing else at all. I am not trying to bring deviations.
Mr. Frans Grijzenhout, Chair, The Netherland Chapter informs me that he invited Mr. Deshmukh for the meetup. He informed me that conflict management is a serious issue in the context such as Wikimedia France 2017. All information is already present on Wikimedia Meta. Here's the page with links to the minutes of the meetings, the discussion papers, and some statements in issues that concerns the global affiliate. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Affiliate_Chairpersons_meetings. Yohann has already shared this with the community on this thread before.
I did not realize that it was the same person who wrote on the Wikimania mailing list when this issue was raised. He had written,
“Hi Bodhisattewa, Please take into consideration that Rahul did more than
speaking for a few minutes during the chairs' meeting in Cape Town.
He prepared a discussion note for this meeting about a sensitive topic.
Rahul and me had several discussions (per skype and in person) in the
weeks preceding the actual meeting.
- Rahul presented his ideas during the meeting and was actively engaged in
the discussion.
- And in the end he got some home work as well: enhancing his note with the
outcomes of the discussion.
The contribution of Rahul was much appreciated.
Regards, Frans
“
Now one more concern that I find as being raised by a few community members when two EC members were present what was the need to send Mr. Deshmukh himself. On Wednesday, 8th August 2018 at 12:42 Indian Standard Time, Yohann had replied on behalf of the Chapter, “ The chapter has full faith and belief in all its board members in both, individual and collective levels. This invitation was to the particular individual based on his expertise in the chapter and in the movement. The chapter has never considered any of its board members unfit to represent it*.**”*
I further inquired about this issue with the Affiliates Committee. While Mr. Deshmukh was invited to speak on the Conflict Management the rules say, “The session is for *chairs* of chapters and thematic organizations *only*. You can delegate another member of your board if you cannot make it yourself ”
So yes, the rules do say that some other board member can be delegated this responsibility. To my understanding, the sentiments of the community were not recorded here. This blunder of not informing the community has perhaps turned in Mahatma Gandhi’s word, ‘*A Himalayan Blunder’*. While Yohann on behalf of Chapter has written that they make a note and would engage more effectively with the community in future and also assurance by CIS-A2K but we shouldn’t stop here. Discussions should be made on how to bring this transparency much more effectively. At last, if the community believes and required that Chapter should write a 7 letter word, ‘apology’ they shouldn’t be hesitant and write it straightaway.
Now not to deviate the topic but I also wanted to know from CIS-A2K, the sponsor myself. Which ledger were the funds allocated, whether from affiliates travel ledger or volunteers travel? Bodhisattwa had asked why the subsequent travel scholarship was not allocated to those in waiting subsequently. The Affiliates body could not provide clarity on this. 2016 Wiki Conference India editors had asked for the scholarship from CIS-A2K and they were awarded not keeping the waiting list criteria, also. I wish to propose a simple step suggestion if the waiting list members decline to attend Wikimania, cases for those invited to speak for a session (like Dr Manavpreet in 2017) can be provided the scholarship. Of course! on each such case merit of the visit needs to be quantified beforehand. Similarly, for steward meetings amongst others. I can float a white paper on how to quantify such metrics (not on this thread, I recognize it will deviate from the main issue) and community can share more inputs.
Anyways, I do not wish to write more and I will be selective and careful in responding as per some of the suggestions received on this thread so far. Since I had inquired myself so I thought of sharing. Please pardon if my messages have seemed to be hiding the principal problem and making others suspicious. Those were not my intentions and that is why I inquired myself.
Disclaimer: I have not spoken to any Wikimedia India office-bearers before approaching the Affiliates Committee or writing this mail.
Abhinav
On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 3:38 PM Abhinav srivastava abhinav619@gmail.com wrote:
Thank You Asaf Bartov for writing back!
On Fri 14 Sep, 2018, 3:33 PM Asaf Bartov, abartov@wikimedia.org wrote:
Wikimedia India is an Indian organization, and the Wikimedia Foundation does not have a say in its internal governance. It does, of course, have great *influence*, insofar as it is historically its biggest funder, and in that it can revoke its recognition as a Wikimedia affiliate. I state this just for clarity, so that no one is confused about WMF's role in this discussion. This is a matter for Wikimedia India and the communities in India which it exists to serve, and not a WMF matter.
However, since you ask me directly, Abhinav, yes, I think this public inquiry (which was brought up respectfully and patiently, and only became shrill because of *your* ad hominem responses) is perfectly acceptable, and an office bearer's accountability is a duty that cannot be argued away by invoking "privacy". Rahul's travel was not private, but made *as* an office bearer, and there can be no privacy concern about it.
I agree with Srikar: your repeated tactic of attempting to discredit the people who raised concerns is inappropriate, aggressive, uncollegial, unhelpful, and for those not convinced of your good faith, also probably suggesting an attempt to cover something up or change the subject by any means necessary.
Now, *I myself* trust there is no reason to cover anything up. As I already said earlier in this thread, if a mistake was made, it can be openly admitted; in my experience Wikimedians are exceptionally open and forgiving when faced with honest admission of error or bad judgment. And if no mistake was made, then clarifications can be offered and understanding and trust regained.
Rahul has now explained the circumstances of his non-responsiveness, and people have expressed understanding and patience, while declining his suggestion that this should be discussed privately. Rahul now can take the time he needs to explain his actions to the community, which is the constituency he is to serve.
Cheers,
A.
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 20:44 Abhinav srivastava abhinav619@gmail.com wrote:
Perhaps it would be advisable to hear from Mr Asaf Bartov and if we can throw some light.
Whether best practices call for taking name publicly or should the concerned persons approach CIS and WMIN and get the details.
Abhinav On Thursday, September 13, 2018, Abhinav srivastava < abhinav619@gmail.com> wrote:
It is necessary my friend. Name game business is no sign of maturity. Rest, report has already been shared.
Affcom member who is selected and not elected showing biases concerns me. This chapter only made him a featured wikimedians and assisted him and his friends. His friend has also acknowledged the help on this thread when EC members paid from their pocket to support him. He still hasn't finished the report but we don't do sensationalism.
http://wiki.wikimedia.in/Equipment_Lending_and_Community_Support/Report/2016...
Post Script : Just a general though based on today morning newspapers. India has become a hub of online trolling where one asks the other to respond. I am happy they are restricted to social media and not us here.
I personally respect you for your work on en Wikipedia and also helping the chapter. I will not reply if you feel so. Suggestion taken.
Abhinav
On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 10:34 PM Srikar Kashyap Pulipaka, < srikar.kashyap@gmail.com> wrote:
<Just a random observation>
Dear Abhinav,
I feel you have been overly enthusiastic in responding to the mails in this thread. I clearly don't find *anything* personal and offensive in Satdeep's email. That was a totally uncalled for attack on him. It is indeed true that Rahul must answer a few questions raised in this thread *himself*. I strongly suggest that we let Rahul address all the concerns himself in this thread once and for all. I don't expect your reply to this mail and hope you don't too. It's not necessary.
Thanks Srikar
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:19 PM Abhinav srivastava < abhinav619@gmail.com> wrote:
> Comrade Satdeep, > > Respect one's personal privacy. You can approach CIS-A2K or Mr > Deshmukh and WMIN and know who invited. Rest, report and documentation has > already been shared. You can also write on the discussion page on Meta > where report has been shared and find out, if you really want an > individual's name public. I am not convinced why an international > volunteers name need to be called. > > You are not even an elected member at Affcom, if my memory serves me > correctly. You did not hold any work experience which was written as > mandatory for the office you are holding. I am not sure if you shared any > report for the Hindi contractual job. You want to discuss everything about > you on a personal mail. > > Why the difference? > > Abhinav > > > > On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 9:35 PM Satdeep Gill, satdeepgill@gmail.com > wrote: > >> Hi Rahul, >> >> It's very sad to hear about your loss. I totally understand how >> difficult it must have been for you and rest of your family. >> >> Thanks a lot responding to this thread. I understand your request >> to personally email you but there are many unanswered questions such as >> information about the inviting organization, reporting etc. in this thread >> and it would be better if you can answer all the questions one by one in >> one email on this thread itself. >> >> Let me know if you need any help in collecting all the questions in >> one email. I am available to help you. Otherwise, just go through the whole >> thread (which will provide you with enough context as well). >> >> I agree with you that this discussion will help WMIN and the larger >> wikimedia community as well. It will also help us ensure more transparency >> in our processes. >> >> Looking forward to hear from you! Thank you once again for taking >> out some time to reply here. I believe you must not be fully available yet. >> So, take your time and respond whenever you can in the coming weeks. >> >> Best >> Satdeep >> >> >> On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 7:09 PM Rahul Deshmukh < >> rahuldeshmukh101@wikimedia.in> wrote: >> >>> *Dear all,* >>> >>> *I am extremely sorry to inform you that my younger cousin brother >>> passed away last Friday from severe medical complications. He was just 38 >>> and had been hospitalised for several weeks in critical stage. * >>> >>> *Being engrossed in the family issue I was not able to reply the >>> thread for which I am extremely sorry.* >>> >>> *Regarding the issue as discussed in the thread I had requested >>> for sponsorship with all needful information from external funding agency >>> CIS, and CIS agreed to it. Wikimedia India did not spend any fund from its >>> account. * >>> >>> *However this discussion will be helpful for Wikimedia India while >>> disseminating WMIN’s funds in future. * >>> >>> *In case someone wants any other information in this regard I >>> would request community members to personally email me.* >>> >>> *Thanks* >>> >>> *Rahul Deshmukh* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Sudhanwa Jogalekar < >>> sudhanwa.com@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 3:47 PM Subhashish Panigrahi < >>>> psubhashish@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Just a technical clarification - Asaf copied Rahul in his first >>>>> emai so he must have received the email. I have copied Rahul again. In >>>>> worst case scenario (if he is not there in the mailing list), others from >>>>> the chapter board would have informed him. It’s very hard to believe that >>>>> the discussion has gone so far without Rahul not being aware Also, it’s >>>>> important for movement partner reps to be on mailing lists of their own >>>>> country. >>>>> >>>> >>>> My bad. Haven't noticed Rahul is also marked in the mails. >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sorry, I don’t find the argument — that Rahul hasn’t replied >>>>> back because he isn’t there in the mailing list — a strong one. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Completely agree that he should reply. >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> -Sudhanwa >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >>>> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >>> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >> >> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >> > _______________________________________________ > Wikimediaindia-l mailing list > Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l > _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
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Thanks Satdeep, for the heads-up. This is important
Hi Rahul,
I really urge you to speak yourself about this issue here, provide reasoning and explain your line for thought regarding your participation at Wikimania 2018. Members from the Chapter and others as well tried to explain, whatsoever. But being the President of Wikimedia Chapter *(India)*, I strongly believe that you need voice your thoughts on this matter and explain it to the community. When the issue has been (still unanswered) directly pointed out and had been referred to you by several people at several instances, you should answer it yourself. By the virtue of your position, you are required to respond, because the President of WMIN is a community-elected position.
In the past of this conversation, there was a point where the President of Wikimedia Chapter *(India) *is not subscribed to this mailing list. But I strongly feel and you should be subscribed https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l as the Leader of a national entity, and be answerable with due respect. I am Ccing you with your WMIN email to make sure that, even though you aren't subscribed, you receive the previous emails and mine as well.
Let me know if you need any clarification on things.
--Krishna C V.
On Fri, Mar 8, 2019 at 1:13 AM Satdeep Gill satdeepgill@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Rahul,
This is a reminder for you to reply on this email thread. It's been more than 5 months and I was expecting a reply from you and I am guessing others were expecting it too. Kindly refer to my email dated 13th September 2018 in this thread.
- Satdeep
On Sun, 16 Sep, 2018, 4:27 PM Abhinav srivastava, abhinav619@gmail.com wrote:
Good Evening!
Firstly, no attempts to deviate or dismantle the principal problem or replying with impulse. Yes, I am a public-spirited community member and this is truer for India Chapter. The reason I asked Asaf to revert on privacy because many issues like contracts are not disclosed to the general community and instead of we debating endlessly it is better to speak advice from an outside observer and speed up the process.
Post-Asaf’s response, I inquired with the Affiliates committee myself. *This is not to say Mr. Deshmukh should not reply, he indeed should to any concerns whatever community seeks to know*. Again, my public spirit asked me to do it, nothing else at all. I am not trying to bring deviations.
Mr. Frans Grijzenhout, Chair, The Netherland Chapter informs me that he invited Mr. Deshmukh for the meetup. He informed me that conflict management is a serious issue in the context such as Wikimedia France 2017. All information is already present on Wikimedia Meta. Here's the page with links to the minutes of the meetings, the discussion papers, and some statements in issues that concerns the global affiliate. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Affiliate_Chairpersons_meetings. Yohann has already shared this with the community on this thread before.
I did not realize that it was the same person who wrote on the Wikimania mailing list when this issue was raised. He had written,
“Hi Bodhisattewa, Please take into consideration that Rahul did more than
speaking for a few minutes during the chairs' meeting in Cape Town.
He prepared a discussion note for this meeting about a sensitive topic.
Rahul and me had several discussions (per skype and in person) in the
weeks preceding the actual meeting.
- Rahul presented his ideas during the meeting and was actively engaged in
the discussion.
- And in the end he got some home work as well: enhancing his note with
the
outcomes of the discussion.
The contribution of Rahul was much appreciated.
Regards, Frans
“
Now one more concern that I find as being raised by a few community members when two EC members were present what was the need to send Mr. Deshmukh himself. On Wednesday, 8th August 2018 at 12:42 Indian Standard Time, Yohann had replied on behalf of the Chapter, “ The chapter has full faith and belief in all its board members in both, individual and collective levels. This invitation was to the particular individual based on his expertise in the chapter and in the movement. The chapter has never considered any of its board members unfit to represent it*.**”*
I further inquired about this issue with the Affiliates Committee. While Mr. Deshmukh was invited to speak on the Conflict Management the rules say, “The session is for *chairs* of chapters and thematic organizations *only*. You can delegate another member of your board if you cannot make it yourself”
So yes, the rules do say that some other board member can be delegated this responsibility. To my understanding, the sentiments of the community were not recorded here. This blunder of not informing the community has perhaps turned in Mahatma Gandhi’s word, ‘*A Himalayan Blunder’*. While Yohann on behalf of Chapter has written that they make a note and would engage more effectively with the community in future and also assurance by CIS-A2K but we shouldn’t stop here. Discussions should be made on how to bring this transparency much more effectively. At last, if the community believes and required that Chapter should write a 7 letter word, ‘apology’ they shouldn’t be hesitant and write it straightaway.
Now not to deviate the topic but I also wanted to know from CIS-A2K, the sponsor myself. Which ledger were the funds allocated, whether from affiliates travel ledger or volunteers travel? Bodhisattwa had asked why the subsequent travel scholarship was not allocated to those in waiting subsequently. The Affiliates body could not provide clarity on this. 2016 Wiki Conference India editors had asked for the scholarship from CIS-A2K and they were awarded not keeping the waiting list criteria, also. I wish to propose a simple step suggestion if the waiting list members decline to attend Wikimania, cases for those invited to speak for a session (like Dr Manavpreet in 2017) can be provided the scholarship. Of course! on each such case merit of the visit needs to be quantified beforehand. Similarly, for steward meetings amongst others. I can float a white paper on how to quantify such metrics (not on this thread, I recognize it will deviate from the main issue) and community can share more inputs.
Anyways, I do not wish to write more and I will be selective and careful in responding as per some of the suggestions received on this thread so far. Since I had inquired myself so I thought of sharing. Please pardon if my messages have seemed to be hiding the principal problem and making others suspicious. Those were not my intentions and that is why I inquired myself.
Disclaimer: I have not spoken to any Wikimedia India office-bearers before approaching the Affiliates Committee or writing this mail.
Abhinav
On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 3:38 PM Abhinav srivastava abhinav619@gmail.com wrote:
Thank You Asaf Bartov for writing back!
On Fri 14 Sep, 2018, 3:33 PM Asaf Bartov, abartov@wikimedia.org wrote:
Wikimedia India is an Indian organization, and the Wikimedia Foundation does not have a say in its internal governance. It does, of course, have great *influence*, insofar as it is historically its biggest funder, and in that it can revoke its recognition as a Wikimedia affiliate. I state this just for clarity, so that no one is confused about WMF's role in this discussion. This is a matter for Wikimedia India and the communities in India which it exists to serve, and not a WMF matter.
However, since you ask me directly, Abhinav, yes, I think this public inquiry (which was brought up respectfully and patiently, and only became shrill because of *your* ad hominem responses) is perfectly acceptable, and an office bearer's accountability is a duty that cannot be argued away by invoking "privacy". Rahul's travel was not private, but made *as* an office bearer, and there can be no privacy concern about it.
I agree with Srikar: your repeated tactic of attempting to discredit the people who raised concerns is inappropriate, aggressive, uncollegial, unhelpful, and for those not convinced of your good faith, also probably suggesting an attempt to cover something up or change the subject by any means necessary.
Now, *I myself* trust there is no reason to cover anything up. As I already said earlier in this thread, if a mistake was made, it can be openly admitted; in my experience Wikimedians are exceptionally open and forgiving when faced with honest admission of error or bad judgment. And if no mistake was made, then clarifications can be offered and understanding and trust regained.
Rahul has now explained the circumstances of his non-responsiveness, and people have expressed understanding and patience, while declining his suggestion that this should be discussed privately. Rahul now can take the time he needs to explain his actions to the community, which is the constituency he is to serve.
Cheers,
A.
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 20:44 Abhinav srivastava abhinav619@gmail.com wrote:
Perhaps it would be advisable to hear from Mr Asaf Bartov and if we can throw some light.
Whether best practices call for taking name publicly or should the concerned persons approach CIS and WMIN and get the details.
Abhinav On Thursday, September 13, 2018, Abhinav srivastava < abhinav619@gmail.com> wrote:
It is necessary my friend. Name game business is no sign of maturity. Rest, report has already been shared.
Affcom member who is selected and not elected showing biases concerns me. This chapter only made him a featured wikimedians and assisted him and his friends. His friend has also acknowledged the help on this thread when EC members paid from their pocket to support him. He still hasn't finished the report but we don't do sensationalism.
http://wiki.wikimedia.in/Equipment_Lending_and_Community_Support/Report/2016...
Post Script : Just a general though based on today morning newspapers. India has become a hub of online trolling where one asks the other to respond. I am happy they are restricted to social media and not us here.
I personally respect you for your work on en Wikipedia and also helping the chapter. I will not reply if you feel so. Suggestion taken.
Abhinav
On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 10:34 PM Srikar Kashyap Pulipaka, < srikar.kashyap@gmail.com> wrote:
> <Just a random observation> > > Dear Abhinav, > > I feel you have been overly enthusiastic in responding to the mails > in this thread. I clearly don't find *anything* personal and offensive in > Satdeep's email. That was a totally uncalled for attack on him. It is > indeed true that Rahul must answer a few questions raised in this thread > *himself*. I strongly suggest that we let Rahul address all the concerns > himself in this thread once and for all. I don't expect your reply to this > mail and hope you don't too. It's not necessary. > > Thanks > Srikar > > On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:19 PM Abhinav srivastava < > abhinav619@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Comrade Satdeep, >> >> Respect one's personal privacy. You can approach CIS-A2K or Mr >> Deshmukh and WMIN and know who invited. Rest, report and documentation has >> already been shared. You can also write on the discussion page on Meta >> where report has been shared and find out, if you really want an >> individual's name public. I am not convinced why an international >> volunteers name need to be called. >> >> You are not even an elected member at Affcom, if my memory serves >> me correctly. You did not hold any work experience which was written as >> mandatory for the office you are holding. I am not sure if you shared any >> report for the Hindi contractual job. You want to discuss everything about >> you on a personal mail. >> >> Why the difference? >> >> Abhinav >> >> >> >> On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 9:35 PM Satdeep Gill, satdeepgill@gmail.com >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Rahul, >>> >>> It's very sad to hear about your loss. I totally understand how >>> difficult it must have been for you and rest of your family. >>> >>> Thanks a lot responding to this thread. I understand your request >>> to personally email you but there are many unanswered questions such as >>> information about the inviting organization, reporting etc. in this thread >>> and it would be better if you can answer all the questions one by one in >>> one email on this thread itself. >>> >>> Let me know if you need any help in collecting all the questions >>> in one email. I am available to help you. Otherwise, just go through the >>> whole thread (which will provide you with enough context as well). >>> >>> I agree with you that this discussion will help WMIN and the >>> larger wikimedia community as well. It will also help us ensure more >>> transparency in our processes. >>> >>> Looking forward to hear from you! Thank you once again for taking >>> out some time to reply here. I believe you must not be fully available yet. >>> So, take your time and respond whenever you can in the coming weeks. >>> >>> Best >>> Satdeep >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 7:09 PM Rahul Deshmukh < >>> rahuldeshmukh101@wikimedia.in> wrote: >>> >>>> *Dear all,* >>>> >>>> *I am extremely sorry to inform you that my younger cousin >>>> brother passed away last Friday from severe medical complications. He was >>>> just 38 and had been hospitalised for several weeks in critical stage. * >>>> >>>> *Being engrossed in the family issue I was not able to reply the >>>> thread for which I am extremely sorry.* >>>> >>>> *Regarding the issue as discussed in the thread I had requested >>>> for sponsorship with all needful information from external funding agency >>>> CIS, and CIS agreed to it. Wikimedia India did not spend any fund from its >>>> account. * >>>> >>>> *However this discussion will be helpful for Wikimedia India >>>> while disseminating WMIN’s funds in future. * >>>> >>>> *In case someone wants any other information in this regard I >>>> would request community members to personally email me.* >>>> >>>> *Thanks* >>>> >>>> *Rahul Deshmukh* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Sudhanwa Jogalekar < >>>> sudhanwa.com@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 3:47 PM Subhashish Panigrahi < >>>>> psubhashish@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Just a technical clarification - Asaf copied Rahul in his first >>>>>> emai so he must have received the email. I have copied Rahul again. In >>>>>> worst case scenario (if he is not there in the mailing list), others from >>>>>> the chapter board would have informed him. It’s very hard to believe that >>>>>> the discussion has gone so far without Rahul not being aware Also, it’s >>>>>> important for movement partner reps to be on mailing lists of their own >>>>>> country. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> My bad. Haven't noticed Rahul is also marked in the mails. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Sorry, I don’t find the argument — that Rahul hasn’t replied >>>>>> back because he isn’t there in the mailing list — a strong one. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Completely agree that he should reply. >>>>> >>>>> Regards >>>>> -Sudhanwa >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >>>>> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >>>> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >>> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >> > _______________________________________________ > Wikimediaindia-l mailing list > Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l > _______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
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Dear ECs of WMIN,
I urge, if not Rahul who might be busy enough in presidential responsibilities, someone should come and respond to the queries members of the chapter and community members are expecting.
Truly highlighted by Krishna, because President and et all EC members are community elected, queries from the later raised in nation-wide making list demands real attention.
There have been a major delay and the community have respected exigencies one might come across, but there has to be a timeline for everything. Ignoring the question is just not the solution.
Someone in the trail mail had well highlighted to apologise if there was a miscommunication with respect to the raised query, and frankly, community will accept it with true justification.
I'm further adding WMIN-EC list in cc so that the entire trail reaches everyone assuming it is someone's responsibility to track such mails over mailing list and respond to the community.
Regards, Karthik Nadar
On Sat, 23 Mar, 2019, 1:08 AM Krishna Chaitanya Velaga, kcvelaga@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks Satdeep, for the heads-up. This is important
Hi Rahul,
I really urge you to speak yourself about this issue here, provide reasoning and explain your line for thought regarding your participation at Wikimania 2018. Members from the Chapter and others as well tried to explain, whatsoever. But being the President of Wikimedia Chapter *(India)*, I strongly believe that you need voice your thoughts on this matter and explain it to the community. When the issue has been (still unanswered) directly pointed out and had been referred to you by several people at several instances, you should answer it yourself. By the virtue of your position, you are required to respond, because the President of WMIN is a community-elected position.
In the past of this conversation, there was a point where the President of Wikimedia Chapter *(India) *is not subscribed to this mailing list. But I strongly feel and you should be subscribed https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l as the Leader of a national entity, and be answerable with due respect. I am Ccing you with your WMIN email to make sure that, even though you aren't subscribed, you receive the previous emails and mine as well.
Let me know if you need any clarification on things.
--Krishna C V.
On Fri, Mar 8, 2019 at 1:13 AM Satdeep Gill satdeepgill@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Rahul,
This is a reminder for you to reply on this email thread. It's been more than 5 months and I was expecting a reply from you and I am guessing others were expecting it too. Kindly refer to my email dated 13th September 2018 in this thread.
- Satdeep
On Sun, 16 Sep, 2018, 4:27 PM Abhinav srivastava, abhinav619@gmail.com wrote:
Good Evening!
Firstly, no attempts to deviate or dismantle the principal problem or replying with impulse. Yes, I am a public-spirited community member and this is truer for India Chapter. The reason I asked Asaf to revert on privacy because many issues like contracts are not disclosed to the general community and instead of we debating endlessly it is better to speak advice from an outside observer and speed up the process.
Post-Asaf’s response, I inquired with the Affiliates committee myself. *This is not to say Mr. Deshmukh should not reply, he indeed should to any concerns whatever community seeks to know*. Again, my public spirit asked me to do it, nothing else at all. I am not trying to bring deviations.
Mr. Frans Grijzenhout, Chair, The Netherland Chapter informs me that he invited Mr. Deshmukh for the meetup. He informed me that conflict management is a serious issue in the context such as Wikimedia France 2017. All information is already present on Wikimedia Meta. Here's the page with links to the minutes of the meetings, the discussion papers, and some statements in issues that concerns the global affiliate. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Affiliate_Chairpersons_meetings. Yohann has already shared this with the community on this thread before.
I did not realize that it was the same person who wrote on the Wikimania mailing list when this issue was raised. He had written,
“Hi Bodhisattewa, Please take into consideration that Rahul did more than
speaking for a few minutes during the chairs' meeting in Cape Town.
He prepared a discussion note for this meeting about a sensitive topic.
Rahul and me had several discussions (per skype and in person) in the
weeks preceding the actual meeting.
- Rahul presented his ideas during the meeting and was actively engaged
in
the discussion.
- And in the end he got some home work as well: enhancing his note with
the
outcomes of the discussion.
The contribution of Rahul was much appreciated.
Regards, Frans
“
Now one more concern that I find as being raised by a few community members when two EC members were present what was the need to send Mr. Deshmukh himself. On Wednesday, 8th August 2018 at 12:42 Indian Standard Time, Yohann had replied on behalf of the Chapter, “ The chapter has full faith and belief in all its board members in both, individual and collective levels. This invitation was to the particular individual based on his expertise in the chapter and in the movement. The chapter has never considered any of its board members unfit to represent it *.**”*
I further inquired about this issue with the Affiliates Committee. While Mr. Deshmukh was invited to speak on the Conflict Management the rules say, “The session is for *chairs* of chapters and thematic organizations *only*. You can delegate another member of your board if you cannot make it yourself”
So yes, the rules do say that some other board member can be delegated this responsibility. To my understanding, the sentiments of the community were not recorded here. This blunder of not informing the community has perhaps turned in Mahatma Gandhi’s word, ‘*A Himalayan Blunder’*. While Yohann on behalf of Chapter has written that they make a note and would engage more effectively with the community in future and also assurance by CIS-A2K but we shouldn’t stop here. Discussions should be made on how to bring this transparency much more effectively. At last, if the community believes and required that Chapter should write a 7 letter word, ‘apology’ they shouldn’t be hesitant and write it straightaway.
Now not to deviate the topic but I also wanted to know from CIS-A2K, the sponsor myself. Which ledger were the funds allocated, whether from affiliates travel ledger or volunteers travel? Bodhisattwa had asked why the subsequent travel scholarship was not allocated to those in waiting subsequently. The Affiliates body could not provide clarity on this. 2016 Wiki Conference India editors had asked for the scholarship from CIS-A2K and they were awarded not keeping the waiting list criteria, also. I wish to propose a simple step suggestion if the waiting list members decline to attend Wikimania, cases for those invited to speak for a session (like Dr Manavpreet in 2017) can be provided the scholarship. Of course! on each such case merit of the visit needs to be quantified beforehand. Similarly, for steward meetings amongst others. I can float a white paper on how to quantify such metrics (not on this thread, I recognize it will deviate from the main issue) and community can share more inputs.
Anyways, I do not wish to write more and I will be selective and careful in responding as per some of the suggestions received on this thread so far. Since I had inquired myself so I thought of sharing. Please pardon if my messages have seemed to be hiding the principal problem and making others suspicious. Those were not my intentions and that is why I inquired myself.
Disclaimer: I have not spoken to any Wikimedia India office-bearers before approaching the Affiliates Committee or writing this mail.
Abhinav
On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 3:38 PM Abhinav srivastava abhinav619@gmail.com wrote:
Thank You Asaf Bartov for writing back!
On Fri 14 Sep, 2018, 3:33 PM Asaf Bartov, abartov@wikimedia.org wrote:
Wikimedia India is an Indian organization, and the Wikimedia Foundation does not have a say in its internal governance. It does, of course, have great *influence*, insofar as it is historically its biggest funder, and in that it can revoke its recognition as a Wikimedia affiliate. I state this just for clarity, so that no one is confused about WMF's role in this discussion. This is a matter for Wikimedia India and the communities in India which it exists to serve, and not a WMF matter.
However, since you ask me directly, Abhinav, yes, I think this public inquiry (which was brought up respectfully and patiently, and only became shrill because of *your* ad hominem responses) is perfectly acceptable, and an office bearer's accountability is a duty that cannot be argued away by invoking "privacy". Rahul's travel was not private, but made *as* an office bearer, and there can be no privacy concern about it.
I agree with Srikar: your repeated tactic of attempting to discredit the people who raised concerns is inappropriate, aggressive, uncollegial, unhelpful, and for those not convinced of your good faith, also probably suggesting an attempt to cover something up or change the subject by any means necessary.
Now, *I myself* trust there is no reason to cover anything up. As I already said earlier in this thread, if a mistake was made, it can be openly admitted; in my experience Wikimedians are exceptionally open and forgiving when faced with honest admission of error or bad judgment. And if no mistake was made, then clarifications can be offered and understanding and trust regained.
Rahul has now explained the circumstances of his non-responsiveness, and people have expressed understanding and patience, while declining his suggestion that this should be discussed privately. Rahul now can take the time he needs to explain his actions to the community, which is the constituency he is to serve.
Cheers,
A.
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 20:44 Abhinav srivastava abhinav619@gmail.com wrote:
Perhaps it would be advisable to hear from Mr Asaf Bartov and if we can throw some light.
Whether best practices call for taking name publicly or should the concerned persons approach CIS and WMIN and get the details.
Abhinav On Thursday, September 13, 2018, Abhinav srivastava < abhinav619@gmail.com> wrote:
> It is necessary my friend. Name game business is no sign of > maturity. Rest, report has already been shared. > > Affcom member who is selected and not elected showing biases > concerns me. This chapter only made him a featured wikimedians and assisted > him and his friends. His friend has also acknowledged the help on this > thread when EC members paid from their pocket to support him. He still > hasn't finished the report but we don't do sensationalism. > > > > http://wiki.wikimedia.in/Equipment_Lending_and_Community_Support/Report/2016... > > Post Script : Just a general though based on today morning > newspapers. India has become a hub of online trolling where one asks the > other to respond. I am happy they are restricted to social media and not us > here. > > I personally respect you for your work on en Wikipedia and also > helping the chapter. I will not reply if you feel so. Suggestion taken. > > Abhinav > > > On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 10:34 PM Srikar Kashyap Pulipaka, < > srikar.kashyap@gmail.com> wrote: > >> <Just a random observation> >> >> Dear Abhinav, >> >> I feel you have been overly enthusiastic in responding to the mails >> in this thread. I clearly don't find *anything* personal and offensive in >> Satdeep's email. That was a totally uncalled for attack on him. It is >> indeed true that Rahul must answer a few questions raised in this thread >> *himself*. I strongly suggest that we let Rahul address all the concerns >> himself in this thread once and for all. I don't expect your reply to this >> mail and hope you don't too. It's not necessary. >> >> Thanks >> Srikar >> >> On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:19 PM Abhinav srivastava < >> abhinav619@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Comrade Satdeep, >>> >>> Respect one's personal privacy. You can approach CIS-A2K or Mr >>> Deshmukh and WMIN and know who invited. Rest, report and documentation has >>> already been shared. You can also write on the discussion page on Meta >>> where report has been shared and find out, if you really want an >>> individual's name public. I am not convinced why an international >>> volunteers name need to be called. >>> >>> You are not even an elected member at Affcom, if my memory serves >>> me correctly. You did not hold any work experience which was written as >>> mandatory for the office you are holding. I am not sure if you shared any >>> report for the Hindi contractual job. You want to discuss everything about >>> you on a personal mail. >>> >>> Why the difference? >>> >>> Abhinav >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 9:35 PM Satdeep Gill, satdeepgill@gmail.com >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Rahul, >>>> >>>> It's very sad to hear about your loss. I totally understand how >>>> difficult it must have been for you and rest of your family. >>>> >>>> Thanks a lot responding to this thread. I understand your request >>>> to personally email you but there are many unanswered questions such as >>>> information about the inviting organization, reporting etc. in this thread >>>> and it would be better if you can answer all the questions one by one in >>>> one email on this thread itself. >>>> >>>> Let me know if you need any help in collecting all the questions >>>> in one email. I am available to help you. Otherwise, just go through the >>>> whole thread (which will provide you with enough context as well). >>>> >>>> I agree with you that this discussion will help WMIN and the >>>> larger wikimedia community as well. It will also help us ensure more >>>> transparency in our processes. >>>> >>>> Looking forward to hear from you! Thank you once again for taking >>>> out some time to reply here. I believe you must not be fully available yet. >>>> So, take your time and respond whenever you can in the coming weeks. >>>> >>>> Best >>>> Satdeep >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 7:09 PM Rahul Deshmukh < >>>> rahuldeshmukh101@wikimedia.in> wrote: >>>> >>>>> *Dear all,* >>>>> >>>>> *I am extremely sorry to inform you that my younger cousin >>>>> brother passed away last Friday from severe medical complications. He was >>>>> just 38 and had been hospitalised for several weeks in critical stage. * >>>>> >>>>> *Being engrossed in the family issue I was not able to reply the >>>>> thread for which I am extremely sorry.* >>>>> >>>>> *Regarding the issue as discussed in the thread I had requested >>>>> for sponsorship with all needful information from external funding agency >>>>> CIS, and CIS agreed to it. Wikimedia India did not spend any fund from its >>>>> account. * >>>>> >>>>> *However this discussion will be helpful for Wikimedia India >>>>> while disseminating WMIN’s funds in future. * >>>>> >>>>> *In case someone wants any other information in this regard I >>>>> would request community members to personally email me.* >>>>> >>>>> *Thanks* >>>>> >>>>> *Rahul Deshmukh* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Sudhanwa Jogalekar < >>>>> sudhanwa.com@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 3:47 PM Subhashish Panigrahi < >>>>>> psubhashish@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Just a technical clarification - Asaf copied Rahul in his >>>>>>> first emai so he must have received the email. I have copied Rahul again. >>>>>>> In worst case scenario (if he is not there in the mailing list), others >>>>>>> from the chapter board would have informed him. It’s very hard to believe >>>>>>> that the discussion has gone so far without Rahul not being aware Also, >>>>>>> it’s important for movement partner reps to be on mailing lists of their >>>>>>> own country. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> My bad. Haven't noticed Rahul is also marked in the mails. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sorry, I don’t find the argument — that Rahul hasn’t replied >>>>>>> back because he isn’t there in the mailing list — a strong one. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Completely agree that he should reply. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards >>>>>> -Sudhanwa >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >>>>>> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >>>>> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >>>> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >>> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >> > _______________________________________________
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