Hoi, What is unclear in the response of Asaf that there is no relation between the money received by CIS and the Indian chapter? There is no rupee less available to India when either CIS or the Indian chapter gets less money. When you spoil it for CIS, you spoil it for India. When the Indian chapter finds it in itself to cooperate with CIS, the likelyhood is that it will inherit its programs and budget at the end of its run. With your campaign to stop asking people to donate to the WMF, you spoil it for both. It is NOT a zero sum game and you have everything to lose. This is a great way to lose everything.. Ravi what is your motivation, how do you gain? Thanks, GerardM On 30 April 2014 10:07, Ravishankar <ravidreams@gmail.com<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','ravidreams@gmail.com');>

Hoi, What is unclear in the response of Asaf that there is no relation between the money received by CIS and the Indian chapter? There is no rupee less available to India when either CIS or the Indian chapter gets less money. When you spoil it for CIS, you spoil it for India. When the Indian chapter finds it in itself to cooperate with CIS, the likelyhood is that it will inherit its programs and budget at the end of its run. With your campaign to stop asking people to donate to the WMF, you spoil it for both. It is NOT a zero sum game and you have everything to lose. This is a great way to lose everything.. Ravi what is your motivation, how do you gain? Thanks, GerardM On 30 April 2014 10:07, Ravishankar &lt;ravidreams(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Kevin, It isn't about the exact numbers and percentages. It is about integrity. You accept that you are getting over paid and yet you won't fix it, then it is putting your personal interest above the movement's interest. You call yourself a non-proft and yet you pay a salary that is far above for-proft standards. And when we ask for results or performance analysis, you say that we can't measure that yet. CIS acknowledges that it is over paying its staff<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-201… to industry standards and their own institution's salary structure. Yet, 51.26% of their budget<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Access_To_Knowledge/Draft_W… to payments towards full time staff, resource persons and consultants (line items 1, 7 and 11.2). This is against the guidelines issued to the FDC<http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Minutes/2013-04-18#Guidance_for_… rising cost of institutionalization. This inflated structure is a mistake created by WMF and it should own the responsibility of fixing it. Just because movement funds are available in plenty, you don't go around wasting it. Ravi _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

I would equally suggest that trying to cut off or limit the flow of funds to the movement because you're upset that someone is being overpaid is putting your personal interest above the movement's interest. I mean, if you were literally successful in your stated goal, the movement would no longer *exist*. I'm sure the FDC will take relevant factors in to consideration when looking at CIS's request, there's no need for hyperbolic calls to start a donation boycott. If this were truly just about profligate spending, there's probably a hundred things in the Wikimedia movement you could latch on to that are more outrageous. --- Kevin Gorman On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 8:57 AM, Ravishankar &lt;ravidreams(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Hi Karthik - I'll step back from the conversation after this, but did want to say that although I haven't been active in many discussions on this list, I've read almost every conversation on every public list related to the Wikimedia movement's activities in India for the last several years, as well as those private lists which I have access to, so I'm not coming in completely out of the blue (including a lot of the discussions and frustrations around the catalyst program and how it was split off.) I'm not actively trying to support CIS's practices, or say they should get their entire grant - I haven't evaluated it on anywhere near an adequate basis to have an opinion on it (I'm thoroughly obsessive about evaluating grants.) I do think it's significant that they indicated an active desire to fix them over time while not being unfair to their current employees - WMDC's most recent grant brought up some questions about how Wikimedia movement affiliates should be treating employees, and I think it will probably be necessary to come up with movement wide standards at some point, where CIS may present valuable guidance of a slightly different sort. I understand where Ravi's frustrations are coming from (and I'm pretty sure I've spoken more with WMIN members in my movement work than people affiliated with CIS,) I just wanted to speak up when I saw someone with advanced permissions on multiple projects actively suggest an action that, if successful, would not be good, and even if not successful, won't be good. I would highly encourage people to focus efforts in productive directions, like improving local fundraising ability, or in participating on some of the meta-movement discussions that are happening right now about the FDC and its future, how we should expect movement affiliate employees to be treated, etc. (Although I also can't blame anyone who feels a need to step back out of frustration; the direction of Ravi's email just concerned me.) I think it would even probably to do detailed post-mortems as has started for the Belfer WiR posting to ensure that lessons learned from past mistakes are not repeated (it's worth noting that many of those involved in splitting off the catalyst programs have left the Foundation, and a lot of their knowledge about what went wrong, including what mistakes they may've made, may have left with them without being recorded.) Best, Kevin Gorman On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 12:24 PM, Karthik Nadar &lt;karthikndr(a)gmail.com&gt;wrote;wrote:

Like Gerard, I'm quite confused at the purpose of trying to get people to stop donating to the Wikimedia Foundation, and am a bit disappointed to see such a suggestion coming from someone who holds advanced rights on some of the projects. I also note that the response of CIS-A2K's executive director notes that if it is determined there is a problem in terms of their salary structure, it is one he wants to address, even if it may take some time to do so because he (reasonably, imo) doesn't want to cut the salaries of current employees steeply. Looking at the table, it looks like CIS-A2K's total staff budget is a little shy of $300k a year. The FDC is currently handing out what, $6m USD a year? Even if CIS was entirely funded out of the FDC (and it isn't, their APG request is for less than $300k,) that's pretty much a drop in the bucket of available funds. It's been made clear that just because CIS may be awarded funds doesn't mean that WMIN won't also be awarded funds, and that the entities aren't in direct competition with each other. Trying to do something like get people to boycott donating to the WMF because CIS is asking for a fraction of a percent of WMF's total budget and something like 5% of available FDC funds to be given to them is pointless if you don't succeed and shooting yourself in the foot if you do succeed. If you were partially successful, your own funding in future years would likely be diminished due to less overall availability of funds, and if you were fully successful... well, Wikipedia wouldn't exist. Best, Kevin Gorman On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 1:50 AM, Gerard Meijssen < gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

HOme work?. I hate it from my school days :) I just want to tell a story about anna hasare that movement is completly based on online acttivitys such peopels are all from india and kejariwalls AAP is completly based on online activitys

Are you peopels are able to accept india is already matured in the case of online activity?.

Now think why there is no peopels in WIKI apart from some south indians?.

On 5/1/14, Kevin Gorman &lt;kgorman(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > Hi Karthik - > > I'll step back from the conversation after this, but did want to say

> although I haven't been active in many discussions on this list, I've

> almost every conversation on every public list related to the Wikimedia > movement's activities in India for the last several years, as well as

> private lists which I have access to, so I'm not coming in completely

> of the blue (including a lot of the discussions and frustrations around

> catalyst program and how it was split off.) I'm not actively trying to > support CIS's practices, or say they should get their entire grant - I > haven't evaluated it on anywhere near an adequate basis to have an

> on it (I'm thoroughly obsessive about evaluating grants.) I do think

> significant that they indicated an active desire to fix them over time > while not being unfair to their current employees - WMDC's most recent > grant brought up some questions about how Wikimedia movement affiliates > should be treating employees, and I think it will probably be necessary

> come up with movement wide standards at some point, where CIS may

> valuable guidance of a slightly different sort. > > I understand where Ravi's frustrations are coming from (and I'm pretty

> I've spoken more with WMIN members in my movement work than people > affiliated with CIS,) I just wanted to speak up when I saw someone with > advanced permissions on multiple projects actively suggest an action

> if successful, would not be good, and even if not successful, won't be > good. I would highly encourage people to focus efforts in productive > directions, like improving local fundraising ability, or in

> on some of the meta-movement discussions that are happening right now

> the FDC and its future, how we should expect movement affiliate

> to be treated, etc. (Although I also can't blame anyone who feels a

> to step back out of frustration; the direction of Ravi's email just > concerned me.) I think it would even probably to do detailed

> as has started for the Belfer WiR posting to ensure that lessons learned > from past mistakes are not repeated (it's worth noting that many of

> involved in splitting off the catalyst programs have left the

> and a lot of their knowledge about what went wrong, including what

> they may've made, may have left with them without being recorded.) > > Best, > Kevin Gorman > > > On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 12:24 PM, Karthik Nadar > &lt;karthikndr(a)gmail.com&gt;wrote;wrote: > >> When its about the Indian Community, I would further appreciate if >> community members from India write in here. There seems to be more to >> foreign members defending CIS-A2K grant while it should be more of

>> community either defending or chasing. >> >> I think Gerard needs to understand the Indian Community from depth; not >> keep on defending CIS-A2K just because you were supposed to run a

>> with them. The volunteer community here can also do that. We have well >> versed Wikidata contributors. Please see how the volunteer activities >> have >> dropped down so tremendously since past two years. >> >> Everyone's comment on the discussion is appreciated; doesn't matters in >> support or in contrast againsy the FDC proposal of CIS-A2K. But, >> seriously >> and on first basis, it should be coming from Indian community members

>> from anyone who doesn't understand the current scenario here. General >> comments from anyone is welcome, but please do some home-work first. >> >> >> Hi Ravi, >> >> I'm sure campaigning against donations to Wikimedia will bring the >> movement in bad light; but something like campaigning for Wikimedia

>> and deteriorating its dependency on WMF will be awesome. Wikimedia

>> currently needs some legal help to initiate after which we believe >> that this is something needs to be achieved with strong support from

>> community. >> >> WMF has already decided that it wants to create more and more mess

>> I'm sure to see that the CIS-A2K will get almost 100% for what they

>> requested for [maybe more :P]. Things are all scripted and discussions >> are >> mere drama. Creation of such a project is itself a great proof for

>> >> Another example is: When first employee of WMIN was hired, WMF created >> such a mess out of it. When A2K was started, WMIN had to no chance to >> voice >> out for or against it. >> >> >> >> Please note: I don't have any personal intentions against CIS. They

>> been so open and helpful to WMIN. Its the WMF attitude towards its

>> in >> India that creates trouble and mess. Thanks to Them! >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> Karthik Nadar. >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 10:21 PM, Kevin Gorman &lt;kgorman(a)gmail.com&gt;

>> >>> I would equally suggest that trying to cut off or limit the flow of >>> funds >>> to the movement because you're upset that someone is being overpaid is >>> putting your personal interest above the movement's interest. I mean,

>>> you were literally successful in your stated goal, the movement would

>>> longer *exist*. I'm sure the FDC will take relevant factors in to >>> consideration when looking at CIS's request, there's no need for >>> hyperbolic >>> calls to start a donation boycott. If this were truly just about >>> profligate spending, there's probably a hundred things in the

>>> movement you could latch on to that are more outrageous. >>> >>> --- >>> Kevin Gorman >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 8:57 AM, Ravishankar >>> &lt;ravidreams(a)gmail.com&gt;wrote;wrote: >>> >>>> Kevin, >>>> >>>> It isn't about the exact numbers and percentages. It is about >>>> integrity. >>>> >>>> You accept that you are getting over paid and yet you won't fix it, >>>> then >>>> it is putting your personal interest above the movement's interest. >>>> >>>> You call yourself a non-proft and yet you pay a salary that is far >>>> above >>>> for-proft standards. >>>> >>>> And when we ask for results or performance analysis, you say that we >>>> can't measure that yet. >>>> >>>> CIS acknowledges that it is over paying its >>>> staff<

disproportionate >>>> to industry standards and their own institution's salary >>>> structure. Yet, 51.26% of their >>>> budget<

goes >>>> to payments towards full time staff, resource persons and consultants >>>> (line items 1, 7 and 11.2). This is against the guidelines issued to >>>> the >>>> FDC<

on _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit

Hi, I think I should write more bluntly to put this point across. For the quantum of money spent, I'd like to see a WHOLE LOT more than what is on offer now. I differ from the position Ravi has taken of wanting to stop funding etc., We, in India, have been stung once by the work of India Program. What you see here is just a case of once bitten twice shy. We are being extra cautious here because while CIS can walk away from failed programmes (since even did WMF India programs), leaving the community to clean up the mess. No efforts have been made since to rebuild the community that once left the movement after a similar storm. This is the reason why you see no engagement from the community with CIS' early efforts here. Can you see any documented community feedback? All work seem to have happened off-wiki and the low trust environment in which they worked led to differing versions of the same conversations happening. Backstage conversations, undocumented meetings, lack of transparency have only worsened the situation. You see conversations where WMF staff daring WMIN to make certain things public and counter accusations and accusations flying. Gerard is right. The first thing that needs to be done is to build the community - the people. The situation as is inspires no one. Frankly, each individual left on his own home computer and his own passion will have accomplished the same as we have. We all need to become Wikipedians again. Warm regards, Pradeep Mohandas

Hi, CIS-A2K has officially stated that it won't fix their erratic salary structure. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/… Why should Wikimedia donors pay for the mistakes of the WMF? I am thinking if we should start campaigning asking people not to donate to WMF citing wasteful expenditures like these. Please point if any such campaign already exists. Ravi _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l