Fwd: Re: [Foundation-l] Indian Minister Kapil Sibal wants to censor social media

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Achal Prabhala

7 Dec 2011 7 Dec '11

6:36 a.m.

fyi -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Indian Minister Kapil Sibal Wants to Censor social Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 12:02:10 +0530 From: Achal Prabhala <aprabhala(a)gmail.com> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> Some updates on this, for anyone interested: http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/06/any-normal-human-being-would-be-o… http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/facebook-google-tell-indi… http://blogs.ft.com/beyond-brics/2011/12/06/indias-dreams-of-web-censorship… http://www.legallyindia.com/201112072434/Regulatory/kapil-sibal-to-sterilis… http://www.livemint.com/2011/12/06130244/Govt-wants-to-scrub-the-Intern.html There's still no clarity on what Kapil Sibal meant/means; whether he's serious; and the rules of the proposed IT act are still worrying; but at least the outcry is now entrenched. On Tuesday 06 December 2011 10:24 PM, Bishakha Datta wrote:

...

On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 9:07 PM, Kim Bruning<kim(a)bruning.xs4all.nl> wrote:

On Tue, Dec 06, 2011 at 09:25:03PM +0530, Achal Prabhala wrote:

On Tuesday 06 December 2011 08:27 PM, Kim Bruning wrote:

I do not believe that the Indian internet community shares Kapil Sibal's position. Though they'll have to speak for themselves, of course! :-)

They have: http://blogs.outlookindia.com/default.aspx?ddm=10&pid=2664 and Mr Sibal's passing thought of yesterday is probably not going

anywhere. And hurrah for that! :-)

A cautious hurrah. In April this year, the Indian government tried to restrict web content by holding sites and service providers - or 'intermediaries' liable for content. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/28/technology/28internet.html?_r=2&scp=1… These new rules will be considered by Parliament in the winter session - and continue to pose a huge threat to online freedom of expression in India. Best Bishakha _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

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Vickram Crishna

7 Dec 7 Dec

7:16 a.m.

New subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Fwd: Re: [Foundation-l] Indian Minister Kapil Sibal wants to censor social media

I don't know whether a discussion on social networking is really directly on-topic for this list, but the reality is that the provisions of the law as it stands right now are certainly of dire portent for a free and fearlessly neutral Wikipedia and its associated projects. What Mr Sibal appears to be suggesting goes much further than the law, and as has been argued by several lawyers and Constitutional experts already, goes beyond the Constitution. Today social networking, tomorrow any other online content. To take the subject most tiresomely and hotly debated during our recent Wikipedia Conference in Mumbai, maps. Those of us online in the 90s had to suffer the anachronistic and quite patently ridiculous rules of the GoI regarding maps in those days: publishing of anything faintly accurate about India was well-nigh impossible, publishing sensible guidebooks totally impossible for anywhere off the beaten track. To get a detailed map of anywhere Indian, one had to pose as a student and trek to Calcutta's (that's what it was in those days) Survey Institute where you could get a physical copy for a few rupees. Reproducing verboten, in any form, a jailable offence. Google Maps was deemed against national security, until our Air Chief Marshal went public saying he had no objections, that any 'enemy's' airfields were as liable to be exposed as ours. In this particular case, pretty well all the 'proprietary' social networks have a very clear policy that legally objectionable content will be taken down upon receipt of a complaint. Obviously this does not happen overnight, and this is not what Mr Sibal objects to anyway. No, he wants the content to be pre-screened. If the same rule of thumb was applied to cases instituted by the Government of India against ordinary citizens (in criminal and civil matters) in court, a great many would be dismissed immediately, I daresay, as the evidence is found to be wanting once the case is heard. If it was applied to arrests by the police, the situation would be much worse, and the police would be almost completely incapable of carrying out any work at all. To some extent, the pressure on our public servants (elected or otherwise) is psychologically enormous, they deal with incredibly complex problems almost routinely. And most matters do get dealt with reasonably well. It is the silliness of autocracy that stands out most sharply in an increasingly online and increasingly less nationalistic world. Just as being cut off from connectivity can sometimes turn out to be a welcome relief, perhaps some of these fellows need a break from politics. It is a shame that our system of governance does not seem to allow for such breaks, as many of these jobs are also under the hidden pressure of internal competition. On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 12:06 PM, Achal Prabhala <aprabhala(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

fyi -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Indian Minister Kapil Sibal Wants to Censor social Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 12:02:10 +0530 From: Achal Prabhala <aprabhala(a)gmail.com> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List < foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> Some updates on this, for anyone interested: http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/06/any-normal-human-being-would-be-o… http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/facebook-google-tell-indi… http://blogs.ft.com/beyond-brics/2011/12/06/indias-dreams-of-web-censorship… http://www.legallyindia.com/201112072434/Regulatory/kapil-sibal-to-sterilis… http://www.livemint.com/2011/12/06130244/Govt-wants-to-scrub-the-Intern.html There's still no clarity on what Kapil Sibal meant/means; whether he's serious; and the rules of the proposed IT act are still worrying; but at least the outcry is now entrenched. On Tuesday 06 December 2011 10:24 PM, Bishakha Datta wrote:

On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 9:07 PM, Kim Bruning<kim(a)bruning.xs4all.nl>

wrote:

On Tue, Dec 06, 2011 at 09:25:03PM +0530, Achal Prabhala wrote:

On Tuesday 06 December 2011 08:27 PM, Kim Bruning wrote: > I do not believe that the Indian internet community shares Kapil > Sibal's position. Though they'll have to speak for > themselves, of course! :-) They have: http://blogs.outlookindia.com/default.aspx?ddm=10&pid=2664 and Mr Sibal's passing thought of yesterday is probably not going

anywhere. And hurrah for that! :-)

A cautious hurrah. In April this year, the Indian government tried to restrict web content

holding sites and service providers - or 'intermediaries' liable for content.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/28/technology/28internet.html?_r=2&scp=1…

These new rules will be considered by Parliament in the winter session - and continue to pose a huge threat to online freedom of expression in

India.

Best Bishakha _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

_______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

-- Vickram Fool On The Hill <http://communicall.wordpress.com>

Srikanth Lakshmanan

7:35 a.m.

New subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Fwd: Re: [Foundation-l] Indian Minister Kapil Sibal wants to censor social media

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 12:06, Achal Prabhala <aprabhala(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

I just want to write that there was a community member who seemed to be of the notion ImageFilter is the technical fix for what Kapil Sibal is proposing(without probably understanding / knowing much) and connecting the two distinct things. Yes Sibal showed some images as examples for his support, but what Sibal means is much more and prescreening of every byte of user generated content. Please tell that member that linking up 2 different things is not a good idea. ImageFilter needs to be discussed with its own merits / demerits and this thing that Sibal proposes means much more than images. If at all the legislation comes and is being enforced, I think Wikimedia projects are better equipped *technically* than other social media sites cited to support the local laws(so that we need not be banned if that goes to that extreme) with a combination of ImageFilter / FlaggedRevisions and some more customizations, but thats not where we would like to go. Community is already not so strong and needs support, there is so much work to do in increasing content, censorship will cripple Indian community if such a thing happens. There are many questions that the communities need to decide as to submit to Indian laws (if at all they come through) and I hope the situation does not arise for us to take those tough calls. PS : I would not like to post / join foundation-l myself since it has high SNR IMO. -- Regards Srikanth.L

Srikanth Ramakrishnan

10:34 a.m.

New subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Fwd: Re: [Foundation-l] Indian Minister Kapil Sibal wants to censor social media

This is basically restriction of freedom of expression and it will hurt Wikipedia much more than it hurts Twitter or Facebook. On 07/12/2011, Srikanth Lakshmanan <srik.lak(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 12:06, Achal Prabhala <aprabhala(a)gmail.com> wrote:

-- Sent from my mobile device Regards, Srikanth Ramakrishnan. Wikipedia Coimbatore Meetup on December 10th. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Coimbatore

Surya Prakash

11:19 a.m.

New subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Fwd: Re: [Foundation-l] Indian Minister Kapil Sibal wants to censor social media

How will it hurt WP most than FB or TWIT? *$U®¥∩* http://goo.gl/RoMyo.com <http://FirefoxSurya.blogspot.com> http://about.me/suryaceg On 7 December 2011 16:04, Srikanth Ramakrishnan <parakara.ghoda(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:

...

This is basically restriction of freedom of expression and it will hurt Wikipedia much more than it hurts Twitter or Facebook. On 07/12/2011, Srikanth Lakshmanan <srik.lak(a)gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 12:06, Achal Prabhala <aprabhala(a)gmail.com>

wrote:

I just want to write that there was a community member who seemed to be

the notion ImageFilter is the technical fix for what Kapil Sibal is proposing(without probably understanding / knowing much) and connecting

the

two distinct things. Yes Sibal showed some images as examples for his support, but what Sibal means is much more and prescreening of every byte of user generated content. Please tell that member that linking up 2 different things is not a good idea. ImageFilter needs to be discussed

with

its own merits / demerits and this thing that Sibal proposes means much more than images. If at all the legislation comes and is being enforced, I think Wikimedia projects are better equipped *technically* than other social media sites cited to support the local laws(so that we need not be banned if that

goes

to that extreme) with a combination of ImageFilter / FlaggedRevisions and some more customizations, but thats not where we would like to go. Community is already not so strong and needs support, there is so much

work

to do in increasing content, censorship will cripple Indian community if such a thing happens. There are many questions that the communities need to decide as to submit to Indian laws (if at all they come through) and I hope the situation

does

not arise for us to take those tough calls. PS : I would not like to post / join foundation-l myself since it has

high

SNR IMO. -- Regards Srikanth.L

-- Sent from my mobile device Regards, Srikanth Ramakrishnan. Wikipedia Coimbatore Meetup on December 10th. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Coimbatore _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

CherianTinu Abraham

11:35 a.m.

New subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Fwd: Re: Indian Minister Kapil Sibal wants to censor social media

...

This is basically restriction of freedom of expression and it will hurt Wikipedia much more than it hurts Twitter or Facebook. On 07/12/2011, Srikanth Lakshmanan <srik.lak(a)gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 12:06, Achal Prabhala <aprabhala(a)gmail.com>

wrote:

I just want to write that there was a community member who seemed to be

the notion ImageFilter is the technical fix for what Kapil Sibal is proposing(without probably understanding / knowing much) and connecting

the

with

goes

work

does

not arise for us to take those tough calls. PS : I would not like to post / join foundation-l myself since it has

high

SNR IMO. -- Regards Srikanth.L

CherianTinu Abraham

11:43 a.m.

New subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Fwd: Re: Indian Minister Kapil Sibal wants to censor social media

+ 1 *Times of India : Twitter, Facebook users target Sibal* http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tech/social-media/Twitter-Facebook-users… "*Sibal's Wikipedia profile was edited 21 times by web users and activists on Tuesday . His profile was locked later in the evening due to a large amount of web activists trying to edit simultaneously, describing him in unkind words*." -TC On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 5:05 PM, CherianTinu Abraham <tinucherian(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:

...

This is basically restriction of freedom of expression and it will hurt Wikipedia much more than it hurts Twitter or Facebook. On 07/12/2011, Srikanth Lakshmanan <srik.lak(a)gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 12:06, Achal Prabhala <aprabhala(a)gmail.com>

wrote:

I just want to write that there was a community member who seemed to be

the notion ImageFilter is the technical fix for what Kapil Sibal is proposing(without probably understanding / knowing much) and connecting

the

two distinct things. Yes Sibal showed some images as examples for his support, but what Sibal means is much more and prescreening of every

byte

of user generated content. Please tell that member that linking up 2 different things is not a good idea. ImageFilter needs to be discussed

with

goes

to that extreme) with a combination of ImageFilter / FlaggedRevisions

and

some more customizations, but thats not where we would like to go. Community is already not so strong and needs support, there is so much

work

to do in increasing content, censorship will cripple Indian community if such a thing happens. There are many questions that the communities need to decide as to

submit

to Indian laws (if at all they come through) and I hope the situation

does

not arise for us to take those tough calls. PS : I would not like to post / join foundation-l myself since it has

high

SNR IMO. -- Regards Srikanth.L

Vickram Crishna

11:50 a.m.

New subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Fwd: Re: Indian Minister Kapil Sibal wants to censor social media

Oh, the mention of 'idiot' on that page is vandalism (no, I haven't done it - yet)? I thought we had a very interesting discussion about current affairs at WikiConf where there seemed to be a consensus that presenting every side of the picture is important. Is reporting the fact that major websites like Kafila.org and literally hundreds or thousands of Twitter users are tweeting the hashtag #IdiotKapilSibal wrong, in that case? On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 5:05 PM, CherianTinu Abraham <tinucherian(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:

...

This is basically restriction of freedom of expression and it will hurt Wikipedia much more than it hurts Twitter or Facebook. On 07/12/2011, Srikanth Lakshmanan <srik.lak(a)gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 12:06, Achal Prabhala <aprabhala(a)gmail.com>

wrote:

I just want to write that there was a community member who seemed to be

the notion ImageFilter is the technical fix for what Kapil Sibal is proposing(without probably understanding / knowing much) and connecting

the

two distinct things. Yes Sibal showed some images as examples for his support, but what Sibal means is much more and prescreening of every

byte

of user generated content. Please tell that member that linking up 2 different things is not a good idea. ImageFilter needs to be discussed

with

goes

to that extreme) with a combination of ImageFilter / FlaggedRevisions

and

some more customizations, but thats not where we would like to go. Community is already not so strong and needs support, there is so much

work

to do in increasing content, censorship will cripple Indian community if such a thing happens. There are many questions that the communities need to decide as to

submit

to Indian laws (if at all they come through) and I hope the situation

does

not arise for us to take those tough calls. PS : I would not like to post / join foundation-l myself since it has

high

SNR IMO. -- Regards Srikanth.L

-- Vickram Fool On The Hill <http://communicall.wordpress.com>

Srikanth Lakshmanan

11:58 a.m.

New subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Fwd: Re: Indian Minister Kapil Sibal wants to censor social media

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 17:20, Vickram Crishna <vvcrishna(a)radiophony.com>wrote;wrote:

...

Adding "idiot" in the lead section describing him is certainly vandalism. Infact the surprising and best thing was the anon vandalism was reverted by IP editors. I requested a 2 day semi protection since it might be highly accessed page and there might be more vandals around. Tinu went ahead and gave it 1 week semi protection. :)

...

Is reporting the fact that major websites like Kafila.org and literally hundreds or thousands of Twitter users are tweeting the hashtag #IdiotKapilSibal wrong, in that case?

No, Please add to the controversy subsection and improve it with proper references, those will not be vandalism. But one needs to be autoconfirmed user to edit this week. More reasons to create an account and start editing :) -- Regards Srikanth.L

CherianTinu Abraham

11:59 a.m.

New subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Fwd: Re: Indian Minister Kapil Sibal wants to censor social media

Adding "Kapil Sibal is an idiot" on the Wikipedia article is vandalism http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kapil_Sibal&action=historysub… Addling "verifiable facts" is acceptable ( including controversies and criticism" http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kapil_Sibal&action=historysub… Hope I clarified the difference. Regards Tinu Cherian P.S. On a lighter note, Please feel to add "Kapil Sibal is an idiot" , if you can provide/prove that with "Verifiable references" from "Reliable Sources" :) On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 5:20 PM, Vickram Crishna <vvcrishna(a)radiophony.com>wrote;wrote:

...

This is basically restriction of freedom of expression and it will hurt Wikipedia much more than it hurts Twitter or Facebook. On 07/12/2011, Srikanth Lakshmanan <srik.lak(a)gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 12:06, Achal Prabhala <aprabhala(a)gmail.com>

wrote:

> fyi > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Indian Minister Kapil Sibal Wants

> Censor > social > Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 12:02:10 +0530 > From: Achal Prabhala <aprabhala(a)gmail.com> > To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List < > foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> > I just want to write that there was a community member who seemed to

be of

the notion ImageFilter is the technical fix for what Kapil Sibal is proposing(without probably understanding / knowing much) and

connecting the

two distinct things. Yes Sibal showed some images as examples for his support, but what Sibal means is much more and prescreening of every

byte

of user generated content. Please tell that member that linking up 2 different things is not a good idea. ImageFilter needs to be discussed

with

its own merits / demerits and this thing that Sibal proposes means much more than images. If at all the legislation comes and is being enforced, I think

Wikimedia

projects are better equipped *technically* than other social media

sites

cited to support the local laws(so that we need not be banned if that

goes

to that extreme) with a combination of ImageFilter / FlaggedRevisions

and

some more customizations, but thats not where we would like to go. Community is already not so strong and needs support, there is so much

work

to do in increasing content, censorship will cripple Indian community

such a thing happens. There are many questions that the communities need to decide as to

submit

to Indian laws (if at all they come through) and I hope the situation

does

not arise for us to take those tough calls. PS : I would not like to post / join foundation-l myself since it has

high

SNR IMO. -- Regards Srikanth.L

-- Vickram Fool On The Hill <http://communicall.wordpress.com> _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Srikanth Ramakrishnan

1:56 p.m.

New subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Fwd: Re: [Foundation-l] Indian Minister Kapil Sibal wants to censor social media

Adding Kapil Sibal is an idiot is definitely vandalism, but saying 1000s of Twitter users and internet activists described him as an idiot with a citation to back it up is not. ;-) On 07/12/2011, CherianTinu Abraham <tinucherian(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

This is basically restriction of freedom of expression and it will hurt Wikipedia much more than it hurts Twitter or Facebook. On 07/12/2011, Srikanth Lakshmanan <srik.lak(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 12:06, Achal Prabhala <aprabhala(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> fyi >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Indian Minister Kapil Sibal Wants to >> Censor >> social >> Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 12:02:10 +0530 >> From: Achal Prabhala <aprabhala(a)gmail.com> >> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List < >> foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> >> > > I just want to write that there was a community member who seemed to be of > the notion ImageFilter is the technical fix for what Kapil Sibal is > proposing(without probably understanding / knowing much) and connecting the > two distinct things. Yes Sibal showed some images as examples for his > support, but what Sibal means is much more and prescreening of every byte > of user generated content. Please tell that member that linking up 2 > different things is not a good idea. ImageFilter needs to be discussed with > its own merits / demerits and this thing that Sibal proposes means > much > more than images. > > If at all the legislation comes and is being enforced, I think Wikimedia > projects are better equipped *technically* than other social media sites > cited to support the local laws(so that we need not be banned if that goes > to that extreme) with a combination of ImageFilter / FlaggedRevisions and > some more customizations, but thats not where we would like to go. > Community is already not so strong and needs support, there is so much work > to do in increasing content, censorship will cripple Indian community if > such a thing happens. > > There are many questions that the communities need to decide as to submit > to Indian laws (if at all they come through) and I hope the situation does > not arise for us to take those tough calls. > > PS : I would not like to post / join foundation-l myself since it has high > SNR IMO. > > -- > Regards > Srikanth.L > -- Sent from my mobile device Regards, Srikanth Ramakrishnan. Wikipedia Coimbatore Meetup on December 10th. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Coimbatore _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

-- Sent from my mobile device Regards, Srikanth Ramakrishnan. Wikipedia Coimbatore Meetup on December 10th. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Coimbatore

Vickram Crishna

4:12 p.m.

New subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Fwd: Re: Indian Minister Kapil Sibal wants to censor social media

Exactly my point. I suspect that the addition of a line referring to the current controversy, where the hashtag #IdiotKapilSibal has been trending, and to quote some of the numbers over time during this crisis, would not be out of place. On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 5:29 PM, CherianTinu Abraham <tinucherian(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:

...

This is basically restriction of freedom of expression and it will hurt Wikipedia much more than it hurts Twitter or Facebook. On 07/12/2011, Srikanth Lakshmanan <srik.lak(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 12:06, Achal Prabhala <aprabhala(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> fyi >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Indian Minister Kapil Sibal Wants to >> Censor >> social >> Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 12:02:10 +0530 >> From: Achal Prabhala <aprabhala(a)gmail.com> >> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List < >> foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> >> > > I just want to write that there was a community member who seemed to be of > the notion ImageFilter is the technical fix for what Kapil Sibal is > proposing(without probably understanding / knowing much) and connecting the > two distinct things. Yes Sibal showed some images as examples for his > support, but what Sibal means is much more and prescreening of every byte > of user generated content. Please tell that member that linking up 2 > different things is not a good idea. ImageFilter needs to be discussed with > its own merits / demerits and this thing that Sibal proposes means much > more than images. > > If at all the legislation comes and is being enforced, I think Wikimedia > projects are better equipped *technically* than other social media sites > cited to support the local laws(so that we need not be banned if that goes > to that extreme) with a combination of ImageFilter / FlaggedRevisions and > some more customizations, but thats not where we would like to go. > Community is already not so strong and needs support, there is so much work > to do in increasing content, censorship will cripple Indian community if > such a thing happens. > > There are many questions that the communities need to decide as to submit > to Indian laws (if at all they come through) and I hope the situation does > not arise for us to take those tough calls. > > PS : I would not like to post / join foundation-l myself since it has high > SNR IMO. > > -- > Regards > Srikanth.L > -- Sent from my mobile device Regards, Srikanth Ramakrishnan. Wikipedia Coimbatore Meetup on December 10th. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Coimbatore _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

-- Vickram Fool On The Hill <http://communicall.wordpress.com>

Srikanth Ramakrishnan

5:06 p.m.

New subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Fwd: Re: [Foundation-l] Indian Minister Kapil Sibal wants to censor social media

...

On a related note, this has appeared on *The Economic Times* : " Five reasons why India can't censor the Internet" http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/internet/five-reasons-why-india-ca… "*Yes, Internet content has the permanence and public-impact potential that a phone call does not, but equally, it lends itself brilliantly to self-regulation. * * * *3. Peer review works: Wikipedia is the best example. Who could have imagined that a user-created encyclopedia could be so objective, and comprehensive? Yes, anyone can go in and edit anything (barring entries like "Kapil Sibal", which have been locked due to vandalism!). * * * *If you make an inappropriate change, someone will come in and correct it.* " Regards Tinu Cherian On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 4:04 PM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan < parakara.ghoda(a)gmail.com> wrote: > This is basically restriction of freedom of expression and it will > hurt Wikipedia much more than it hurts Twitter or Facebook. > > On 07/12/2011, Srikanth Lakshmanan <srik.lak(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 12:06, Achal Prabhala <aprabhala(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > > >> fyi > >> > >> -------- Original Message -------- > >> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Indian Minister Kapil Sibal Wants > to > >> Censor > >> social > >> Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 12:02:10 +0530 > >> From: Achal Prabhala <aprabhala(a)gmail.com> > >> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List < > >> foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> > >> > > > > I just want to write that there was a community member who seemed to > be of > > the notion ImageFilter is the technical fix for what Kapil Sibal is > > proposing(without probably understanding / knowing much) and > connecting the > > two distinct things. Yes Sibal showed some images as examples for his > > support, but what Sibal means is much more and prescreening of every > byte > > of user generated content. Please tell that member that linking up 2 > > different things is not a good idea. ImageFilter needs to be > discussed with > > its own merits / demerits and this thing that Sibal proposes means > much > > more than images. > > > > If at all the legislation comes and is being enforced, I think > Wikimedia > > projects are better equipped *technically* than other social media > sites > > cited to support the local laws(so that we need not be banned if that > goes > > to that extreme) with a combination of ImageFilter / FlaggedRevisions > and > > some more customizations, but thats not where we would like to go. > > Community is already not so strong and needs support, there is so > much work > > to do in increasing content, censorship will cripple Indian community > if > > such a thing happens. > > > > There are many questions that the communities need to decide as to > submit > > to Indian laws (if at all they come through) and I hope the situation > does > > not arise for us to take those tough calls. > > > > PS : I would not like to post / join foundation-l myself since it has > high > > SNR IMO. > > > > -- > > Regards > > Srikanth.L > > > > -- > Sent from my mobile device > > Regards, > Srikanth Ramakrishnan. > Wikipedia Coimbatore Meetup on December 10th. > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Coimbatore > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimediaindia-l mailing list > Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l > _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

-- Vickram Fool On The Hill <http://communicall.wordpress.com>

-- Sent from my mobile device Regards, Srikanth Ramakrishnan. Wikipedia Coimbatore Meetup on December 10th. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Coimbatore

Achal Prabhala

8 Dec 8 Dec

11:37 a.m.

New subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Fwd: Re: [Foundation-l] Indian Minister Kapil Sibal wants to censor social media

A useful update on the situation: http://blogs.outlookindia.com/default.aspx?ddm=10&pid=2665 On Wednesday 07 December 2011 10:36 PM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan wrote:

...

Vickram, while I agree with you my point was something else. What I meant to say was that if you add a source, you make your point, you're being neutral, and thus what you're doing is factually correct. On 07/12/2011, Vickram Crishna<vvcrishna(a)radiophony.com> wrote: > Exactly my point. I suspect that the addition of a line referring to the > current controversy, where the hashtag #IdiotKapilSibal has been trending, > and to quote some of the numbers over time during this crisis, would not be > out of place. > > On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 5:29 PM, CherianTinu Abraham > <tinucherian(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote: > >> Adding "Kapil Sibal is an idiot" on the Wikipedia article is vandalism >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kapil_Sibal&action=historysub… >> >> >> Addling "verifiable facts" is acceptable ( including controversies and >> criticism" >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kapil_Sibal&action=historysub… >> >> >> Hope I clarified the difference. >> >> Regards >> Tinu Cherian >> >> P.S. On a lighter note, Please feel to add "Kapil Sibal is an idiot" , if >> you can provide/prove that with "Verifiable references" from "Reliable >> Sources" :) >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 5:20 PM, Vickram Crishna >> <vvcrishna(a)radiophony.com>wrote;wrote: >> >>> Oh, the mention of 'idiot' on that page is vandalism (no, I haven't done >>> it - yet)? I thought we had a very interesting discussion about current >>> affairs at WikiConf where there seemed to be a consensus that presenting >>> every side of the picture is important. >>> >>> Is reporting the fact that major websites like Kafila.org and literally >>> hundreds or thousands of Twitter users are tweeting the hashtag >>> #IdiotKapilSibal wrong, in that case? >>> >>> On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 5:05 PM, CherianTinu Abraham< >>> tinucherian(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On a related note, this has appeared on *The Economic Times* : >>>> >>>> " Five reasons why India can't censor the Internet" >>>> >>>> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/internet/five-reasons-why-india-ca… >>>> >>>> >>>> "*Yes, Internet content has the permanence and public-impact potential >>>> that a phone call does not, but equally, it lends itself brilliantly to >>>> self-regulation. * >>>> * >>>> * >>>> *3. Peer review works: Wikipedia is the best example. Who could have >>>> imagined that a user-created encyclopedia could be so objective, and >>>> comprehensive? Yes, anyone can go in and edit anything (barring entries >>>> like "Kapil Sibal", which have been locked due to vandalism!). * >>>> * >>>> * >>>> *If you make an inappropriate change, someone will come in and correct >>>> it.* " >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> Tinu Cherian >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 4:04 PM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan< >>>> parakara.ghoda(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> This is basically restriction of freedom of expression and it will >>>>> hurt Wikipedia much more than it hurts Twitter or Facebook. >>>>> >>>>> On 07/12/2011, Srikanth Lakshmanan<srik.lak(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 12:06, Achal Prabhala<aprabhala(a)gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> fyi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Indian Minister Kapil Sibal Wants >>>>> to >>>>>>> Censor >>>>>>> social >>>>>>> Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 12:02:10 +0530 >>>>>>> From: Achal Prabhala<aprabhala(a)gmail.com> >>>>>>> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List< >>>>>>> foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> >>>>>>> >>>>>> I just want to write that there was a community member who seemed to >>>>> be of >>>>>> the notion ImageFilter is the technical fix for what Kapil Sibal is >>>>>> proposing(without probably understanding / knowing much) and >>>>> connecting the >>>>>> two distinct things. Yes Sibal showed some images as examples for his >>>>>> support, but what Sibal means is much more and prescreening of every >>>>> byte >>>>>> of user generated content. Please tell that member that linking up 2 >>>>>> different things is not a good idea. ImageFilter needs to be >>>>> discussed with >>>>>> its own merits / demerits and this thing that Sibal proposes means >>>>> much >>>>>> more than images. >>>>>> >>>>>> If at all the legislation comes and is being enforced, I think >>>>> Wikimedia >>>>>> projects are better equipped *technically* than other social media >>>>> sites >>>>>> cited to support the local laws(so that we need not be banned if that >>>>> goes >>>>>> to that extreme) with a combination of ImageFilter / FlaggedRevisions >>>>> and >>>>>> some more customizations, but thats not where we would like to go. >>>>>> Community is already not so strong and needs support, there is so >>>>> much work >>>>>> to do in increasing content, censorship will cripple Indian community >>>>> if >>>>>> such a thing happens. >>>>>> >>>>>> There are many questions that the communities need to decide as to >>>>> submit >>>>>> to Indian laws (if at all they come through) and I hope the situation >>>>> does >>>>>> not arise for us to take those tough calls. >>>>>> >>>>>> PS : I would not like to post / join foundation-l myself since it has >>>>> high >>>>>> SNR IMO. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Regards >>>>>> Srikanth.L >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Sent from my mobile device >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Srikanth Ramakrishnan. >>>>> Wikipedia Coimbatore Meetup on December 10th. >>>>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Coimbatore >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >>>>> Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >>>> Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >>>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Vickram >>> Fool On The Hill<http://communicall.wordpress.com> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >>> Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >> Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >> >> > > -- > Vickram > Fool On The Hill<http://communicall.wordpress.com> >

Srikanth Ramakrishnan

12:40 p.m.

New subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Fwd: Re: [Foundation-l] Indian Minister Kapil Sibal wants to censor social media

Interesting to note that the article mentions Sunil and Pranesh of the Centre for Internet and Society ... On 08/12/2011, Achal Prabhala <aprabhala(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

A useful update on the situation: http://blogs.outlookindia.com/default.aspx?ddm=10&pid=2665 On Wednesday 07 December 2011 10:36 PM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan wrote:

Vickram, while I agree with you my point was something else. What I meant to say was that if you add a source, you make your point, you're being neutral, and thus what you're doing is factually correct. On 07/12/2011, Vickram Crishna<vvcrishna(a)radiophony.com> wrote: > Exactly my point. I suspect that the addition of a line referring to the > current controversy, where the hashtag #IdiotKapilSibal has been > trending, > and to quote some of the numbers over time during this crisis, would not > be > out of place. > > On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 5:29 PM, CherianTinu Abraham > <tinucherian(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote: > >> Adding "Kapil Sibal is an idiot" on the Wikipedia article is vandalism >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kapil_Sibal&action=historysub… >> >> >> Addling "verifiable facts" is acceptable ( including controversies and >> criticism" >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kapil_Sibal&action=historysub… >> >> >> Hope I clarified the difference. >> >> Regards >> Tinu Cherian >> >> P.S. On a lighter note, Please feel to add "Kapil Sibal is an idiot" , >> if >> you can provide/prove that with "Verifiable references" from "Reliable >> Sources" :) >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 5:20 PM, Vickram Crishna >> <vvcrishna(a)radiophony.com>wrote;wrote: >> >>> Oh, the mention of 'idiot' on that page is vandalism (no, I haven't >>> done >>> it - yet)? I thought we had a very interesting discussion about current >>> affairs at WikiConf where there seemed to be a consensus that >>> presenting >>> every side of the picture is important. >>> >>> Is reporting the fact that major websites like Kafila.org and literally >>> hundreds or thousands of Twitter users are tweeting the hashtag >>> #IdiotKapilSibal wrong, in that case? >>> >>> On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 5:05 PM, CherianTinu Abraham< >>> tinucherian(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On a related note, this has appeared on *The Economic Times* : >>>> >>>> " Five reasons why India can't censor the Internet" >>>> >>>> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/internet/five-reasons-why-india-ca… >>>> >>>> >>>> "*Yes, Internet content has the permanence and public-impact potential >>>> that a phone call does not, but equally, it lends itself brilliantly >>>> to >>>> self-regulation. * >>>> * >>>> * >>>> *3. Peer review works: Wikipedia is the best example. Who could have >>>> imagined that a user-created encyclopedia could be so objective, and >>>> comprehensive? Yes, anyone can go in and edit anything (barring >>>> entries >>>> like "Kapil Sibal", which have been locked due to vandalism!). * >>>> * >>>> * >>>> *If you make an inappropriate change, someone will come in and correct >>>> it.* " >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> Tinu Cherian >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 4:04 PM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan< >>>> parakara.ghoda(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> This is basically restriction of freedom of expression and it will >>>>> hurt Wikipedia much more than it hurts Twitter or Facebook. >>>>> >>>>> On 07/12/2011, Srikanth Lakshmanan<srik.lak(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 12:06, Achal Prabhala<aprabhala(a)gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> fyi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Indian Minister Kapil Sibal >>>>>>> Wants >>>>> to >>>>>>> Censor >>>>>>> social >>>>>>> Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 12:02:10 +0530 >>>>>>> From: Achal Prabhala<aprabhala(a)gmail.com> >>>>>>> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List< >>>>>>> foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> >>>>>>> >>>>>> I just want to write that there was a community member who seemed to >>>>> be of >>>>>> the notion ImageFilter is the technical fix for what Kapil Sibal is >>>>>> proposing(without probably understanding / knowing much) and >>>>> connecting the >>>>>> two distinct things. Yes Sibal showed some images as examples for >>>>>> his >>>>>> support, but what Sibal means is much more and prescreening of every >>>>> byte >>>>>> of user generated content. Please tell that member that linking up 2 >>>>>> different things is not a good idea. ImageFilter needs to be >>>>> discussed with >>>>>> its own merits / demerits and this thing that Sibal proposes means >>>>> much >>>>>> more than images. >>>>>> >>>>>> If at all the legislation comes and is being enforced, I think >>>>> Wikimedia >>>>>> projects are better equipped *technically* than other social media >>>>> sites >>>>>> cited to support the local laws(so that we need not be banned if >>>>>> that >>>>> goes >>>>>> to that extreme) with a combination of ImageFilter / >>>>>> FlaggedRevisions >>>>> and >>>>>> some more customizations, but thats not where we would like to go. >>>>>> Community is already not so strong and needs support, there is so >>>>> much work >>>>>> to do in increasing content, censorship will cripple Indian >>>>>> community >>>>> if >>>>>> such a thing happens. >>>>>> >>>>>> There are many questions that the communities need to decide as to >>>>> submit >>>>>> to Indian laws (if at all they come through) and I hope the >>>>>> situation >>>>> does >>>>>> not arise for us to take those tough calls. >>>>>> >>>>>> PS : I would not like to post / join foundation-l myself since it >>>>>> has >>>>> high >>>>>> SNR IMO. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Regards >>>>>> Srikanth.L >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Sent from my mobile device >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Srikanth Ramakrishnan. >>>>> Wikipedia Coimbatore Meetup on December 10th. >>>>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Coimbatore >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >>>>> Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >>>> Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >>>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Vickram >>> Fool On The Hill<http://communicall.wordpress.com> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >>> Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >> Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >> >> > > -- > Vickram > Fool On The Hill<http://communicall.wordpress.com> >

-- Sent from my mobile device Regards, Srikanth Ramakrishnan. Wikipedia Coimbatore Meetup on December 10th. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Coimbatore

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Achal Prabhala
CherianTinu Abraham
Srikanth Lakshmanan
Srikanth Ramakrishnan
Surya Prakash
Vickram Crishna