Hello everyone
I managed to complete the report for the Gauteng meeting: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:WM_ZA/Gauteng_meeting/Report.
The actual receipts of the expenses was only send to the board list, as it contains personal information about myself. In the report you can see the details regarding the specific expenses and also the remaining balance for this grant. We asked the WMF whether we can transfer this amount for use in Wiki Loves Monuments. As soon as my questions are answered by Charlene regarding the bank account I will transfer the remaining balance, because currently it seems to me that we might have problems accessing the money should it be transferred to this account. Feel free to ask me if there are any questions regarding this report.
Kind regards Lourie
Hi Everyone,
Herewith please find the text exchange between myself and Lourie where he is insistant that I could not make the meeting due to my busy schedule. Our telephone conversation of Thursday evening refers; That regardless of how my day is scheduled we needed to meet due to the various developments that have transpired, including WLM that was up for discussion.
Text messages refer: Charlene; - On July 20th/13h57 - Hi Lourie tried calling to see where you are at Wits? My 3pm was moved earlier and not sure until what time you'll be there cos I have a 5.30 meeting at Wits . Lourie: July 20th / 14h19 - We got held up and just arrived at Wits. We will be here for some time, so then we can meet at 17h30. We areat the general engineering building.
Charlene: July 20th/ 14h35 - My meeting is at 5.30 so will come through to meet at 4.30. Where the heck is the engineering building
Lourie: July 20th / 14h54 - That time is good. We are in the Chamber of mines Building next to the Flower Hall on the corner of Enoch Santonga and the M1.
Charlene; July 20th / 16 25 - Am two traffic lights away from the Barnato entrance of Wits and its peak time so expect me a few minutes after 4.30 thanks
Charlene; July 20th / 16h40 - So where in this small building are you exactly please?
Lourie; July 20th / 17h06 - We are currently driving to get lunch.
Charlene; July 20th / 17h07 - Suppose we'll meet another time
Lourie; July 20th /17h08 - Okay, we thought that you couldn't make it. Will stay in touch vi email.
Charlene; July 20th / 17h16 - Great game you guys are playing hope you having fun laughing your heads off with the disrespect and everything else you scheming.
At no point is there any communication by myself to state that my schedule has changed. At no point is there any text or call from you stating that you have changed the schedule.
So unfortunately there have been a few of these assumptions made and I cannot feel safe with you dealing in an appropriate manner with issues of governance and or operations given the above account.
Am catching up on emails and will respond to most if not all during the course of this evening.
Have a great week everyone
Best regards,
Charlene On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 3:21 PM, Lourie Pieterse louriepieterse@yahoo.comwrote:
Hello everyone
I managed to complete the report for the Gauteng meeting: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:WM_ZA/Gauteng_meeting/Report.
The actual receipts of the expenses was only send to the board list, as it contains personal information about myself. In the report you can see the details regarding the specific expenses and also the remaining balance for this grant. We asked the WMF whether we can transfer this amount for use in Wiki Loves Monuments. As soon as my questions are answered by Charlene regarding the bank account I will transfer the remaining balance, because currently it seems to me that we might have problems accessing the money should it be transferred to this account. Feel free to ask me if there are any questions regarding this report.
Kind regards Lourie
Hi Charlene and everyone else you have cc'd with your response to Lourie.
Lourie has asked you for a response to some other outstanding and unaddressed issues, and you have replied with a self-damning transcript including the line "Great game you guys are playing hope you having fun laughing your heads off with the disrespect and everything else you scheming."
Perhaps Lourie didn't immediately get your SMS? I have no idea, perhaps he did maliciously scheme to lure you to a meeting and then leave you stranded in the building, but a key wiki principle is "assume good faith" and you assume bad faith in this case and repeatedly in other cases. This incident is simply a minor one in a repeating pattern.
Your attack against David when, in the absence of any feedback from the rest of us, including you, he acted on another key wiki principle, "be bold" was outrageous. Instead of simply disagreeing and asking him to undo the decision, you launched a personal attack, and I am only sorry I simply resigned in disgust instead of confronting you on it as well.
Your attacks against Kerryn were equally vitriolic.
You have repeatedly shown signs of paranoia and have accused each and every member of the board of, at best, scheming. Perhaps, if every single person is scheming to get you, the problem lies elsewhere?
Your destructive communication has led to a dysfunctional and demoralised atmosphere in the board, the resignation of two board members and I'm surprised the others continue to put up with your abuse. I think the only reason I avoided any attacks while I was involved was that I didn't do anything.
If you edited one of the Wikimedia projects in the same way as you communicate with your fellow board members you would have been banned long ago.
I am no longer a member of the board, but I request as a member of the South African Wikimedia community who you represent that you step down and allow your position to be filled by a board member who understands what good faith is, and is willing to work constructively with their colleagues and the local community.
Your continued involvement on the board is doing great harm to the development of the Wikimedia projects in South Africa.
I am sorry to do this publicly and perpetuate the saga, as I prefer to deal with issues like this in private, but your unchecked public attacks on everyone else deserve a public response.
Regards, Ian Gilfillan
On 29/07/2012 17:54, Charlene Foster wrote:
Charlene; July 20th / 17h16 - Great game you guys are playing hope you having fun laughing your heads off with the disrespect and everything else you scheming.
I will respond to these messages tomorrow when I have access to proper internet, because my current connection is very unstable. A few important points:
1) I do not agree with the times you posted as to when these messages were sent and received. 2) I did not receive a message from you mentioning that you were stuck in traffic. Either way, we still waited 30 minutes for you. 3) Earlier that day you changed the time of our initial meeting, so it was possible that your meetings could have changed again. 4) You claim that we changed the schedule of the meeting. I cannot see how you got to this conclusion.
As I have said, I will respond thoroughly tomorrow. For now I just want everyone to have the correct facts. If needed I will provide a database dump of my text messages of that day to confirm. In addition Dumisani can confirm these, but his word will probably be not a reliable source according to "our scheming against you". It is above my intelligence to understand as to why we would want to waste our time on something like that.
Lourie
From: Charlene Foster afrastocracy@gmail.com To: Lourie Pieterse louriepieterse@yahoo.com Cc: WikimediaZA wikimediaza@lists.wikimedia.org; Asaf Bartov abartov@wikimedia.org; WikimediaZA Board wikimedia-za-board@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 5:54 PM Subject: Re: Gauteng meeting report (general list)
Hi Everyone,
Herewith please find the text exchange between myself and Lourie where he is insistant that I could not make the meeting due to my busy schedule. Our telephone conversation of Thursday evening refers; That regardless of how my day is scheduled we needed to meet due to the various developments that have transpired, including WLM that was up for discussion.
Text messages refer: Charlene; - On July 20th/13h57 - Hi Lourie tried calling to see where you are at Wits? My 3pm was moved earlier and not sure until what time you'll be there cos I have a 5.30 meeting at Wits . Lourie: July 20th / 14h19 - We got held up and just arrived at Wits. We will be here for some time, so then we can meet at 17h30. We areat the general engineering building.
Charlene: July 20th/ 14h35 - My meeting is at 5.30 so will come through to meet at 4.30. Where the heck is the engineering building
Lourie: July 20th / 14h54 - That time is good. We are in the Chamber of mines Building next to the Flower Hall on the corner of Enoch Santonga and the M1.
Charlene; July 20th / 16 25 - Am two traffic lights away from the Barnato entrance of Wits and its peak time so expect me a few minutes after 4.30 thanks
Charlene; July 20th / 16h40 - So where in this small building are you exactly please?
Lourie; July 20th / 17h06 - We are currently driving to get lunch.
Charlene; July 20th / 17h07 - Suppose we'll meet another time
Lourie; July 20th /17h08 - Okay, we thought that you couldn't make it. Will stay in touch vi email.
Charlene; July 20th / 17h16 - Great game you guys are playing hope you having fun laughing your heads off with the disrespect and everything else you scheming.
At no point is there any communication by myself to state that my schedule has changed. At no point is there any text or call from you stating that you have changed the schedule.
So unfortunately there have been a few of these assumptions made and I cannot feel safe with you dealing in an appropriate manner with issues of governance and or operations given the above account.
Am catching up on emails and will respond to most if not all during the course of this evening.
Have a great week everyone
Best regards,
Charlene On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 3:21 PM, Lourie Pieterse louriepieterse@yahoo.com wrote:
Hello everyone
I managed to complete the report for the Gauteng meeting: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:WM_ZA/Gauteng_meeting/Report.
The actual receipts of the expenses was only send to the board list, as it contains personal information about myself. In the report you can see the details regarding the specific expenses and also the remaining balance for this grant. We asked the WMF whether we can transfer this amount for use in Wiki Loves Monuments. As soon as my questions are answered by Charlene regarding the bank account I will transfer the remaining balance, because currently it seems to me that we might have problems accessing the money should it be transferred to this account. Feel free to ask me if there are any questions regarding this report.
Kind regardsLourie
-- Charlene Foster +27 82 850 5740
"At the feast of Ego everyone leaves hungry"
Hi Lourie,
The report looks good, just one question, how many airline tickets were bought in the end? Just one or two? Could the number(s) be reflected in the expenses table?
Good going on the meeting everyone and sorry I was not able to make it. And thank you Lourie, Isla, Dumi and everyone else for all the hard work you are putting into this.
P.S.
On a general side note for everyone on our mailing list, and I would like to get everyone's input on this and I don't mean to targe anyone in this, but I am not so sure that the public mailing list for Wikimedia ZA is the best place to be airing misunderstandings between members. Perhaps a more direct exchange between the concernd parties to sort these sorts of things out might be more efficient and a public airing be more of a last ditch attempt? After all a dispute on a public mailing list can become distracting from our core goals for everyone else on the list.
Cheers,
Douglas.
On 29 July 2012 15:21, Lourie Pieterse louriepieterse@yahoo.com wrote:
Hello everyone
I managed to complete the report for the Gauteng meeting: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:WM_ZA/Gauteng_meeting/Report.
The actual receipts of the expenses was only send to the board list, as it contains personal information about myself. In the report you can see the details regarding the specific expenses and also the remaining balance for this grant. We asked the WMF whether we can transfer this amount for use in Wiki Loves Monuments. As soon as my questions are answered by Charlene regarding the bank account I will transfer the remaining balance, because currently it seems to me that we might have problems accessing the money should it be transferred to this account. Feel free to ask me if there are any questions regarding this report.
Kind regards Lourie
WikimediaZA mailing list WikimediaZA@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaza
Hello Douglas
I have added a note that explains only one round-trip ticket was bought. I used my frequent flyer points for one of the tickets, that is why it is a bit cheaper than normally. I thought about this for a while and agree that we should not air such opinions on the public list, even though I do agree with Ian's argument. For those interested, Dumisani created the following page to continue this discussion: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:WM_ZA/Gauteng_meeting/Report/SMS.
Kind regards Lourie
From: Douglas Scott douglas.i.scott@gmail.com To: Lourie Pieterse louriepieterse@yahoo.com Cc: WikimediaZA wikimediaza@lists.wikimedia.org; Charlene Foster afrastocracy@gmail.com; WikimediaZA Board wikimedia-za-board@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 6:49 PM Subject: Re: [Wikimedia ZA] Gauteng meeting report (general list)
Hi Lourie,
The report looks good, just one question, how many airline tickets were bought in the end? Just one or two? Could the number(s) be reflected in the expenses table?
Good going on the meeting everyone and sorry I was not able to make it. And thank you Lourie, Isla, Dumi and everyone else for all the hard work you are putting into this.
P.S.
On a general side note for everyone on our mailing list, and I would like to get everyone's input on this and I don't mean to targe anyone in this, but I am not so sure that the public mailing list for Wikimedia ZA is the best place to be airing misunderstandings between members. Perhaps a more direct exchange between the concernd parties to sort these sorts of things out might be more efficient and a public airing be more of a last ditch attempt? After all a dispute on a public mailing list can become distracting from our core goals for everyone else on the list.
Cheers,
Douglas.
On 29 July 2012 15:21, Lourie Pieterse louriepieterse@yahoo.com wrote:
Hello everyone
I managed to complete the report for the Gauteng meeting: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:WM_ZA/Gauteng_meeting/Report.
The actual receipts of the expenses was only send to the board list, as it contains personal information about myself. In the report you can see the details regarding the specific expenses and also the remaining balance for this grant. We asked the WMF whether we can transfer this amount for use in Wiki Loves Monuments. As soon as my questions are answered by Charlene regarding the bank account I will transfer the remaining balance, because currently it seems to me that we might have problems accessing the money should it be transferred to this account. Feel free to ask me if there are any questions regarding this report.
Kind regardsLourie _______________________________________________ WikimediaZA mailing list WikimediaZA@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaza
-- Douglas Ian Scott 司道格 Skype: douglas0scott UK mobile number: +44 (0)755 452 5277 Chinese mobile number: +86 1 364 330 7351 South African mobile number: +27 (0)79 515 872
Thanks for the clarification Lourie. My dad was an accountant and the accountant in me always seems to come out a bit when I see tables detailing expenses.
I am happy that Ian has shared his thoughts with us as it does seem to have been a long running issue. I have added his email to the page that Dumi created at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:WM_ZA/Gauteng_meeting/Report/SMS for people who wish to comment on this issue further. I have left my thoughts there as well.
@Blessing: as Lourie said, Wikimedia is an open organisation and anyone is welcome to attend and indeed if you have an interest in attending I would encourage you to do so. If you want to volunteer for anything then please do, it would be great to have you on board.
Cheers,
Douglas.
On 30 July 2012 16:07, Lourie Pieterse louriepieterse@yahoo.com wrote:
Hello Douglas
I have added a note that explains only one round-trip ticket was bought. I used my frequent flyer points for one of the tickets, that is why it is a bit cheaper than normally. I thought about this for a while and agree that we should not air such opinions on the public list, even though I do agree with Ian's argument. For those interested, Dumisani created the following page to continue this discussion: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:WM_ZA/Gauteng_meeting/Report/SMS.
Kind regards Lourie
*From:* Douglas Scott douglas.i.scott@gmail.com *To:* Lourie Pieterse louriepieterse@yahoo.com *Cc:* WikimediaZA wikimediaza@lists.wikimedia.org; Charlene Foster < afrastocracy@gmail.com>; WikimediaZA Board < wikimedia-za-board@lists.wikimedia.org> *Sent:* Sunday, July 29, 2012 6:49 PM *Subject:* Re: [Wikimedia ZA] Gauteng meeting report (general list)
Hi Lourie,
The report looks good, just one question, how many airline tickets were bought in the end? Just one or two? Could the number(s) be reflected in the expenses table?
Good going on the meeting everyone and sorry I was not able to make it. And thank you Lourie, Isla, Dumi and everyone else for all the hard work you are putting into this.
P.S.
On a general side note for everyone on our mailing list, and I would like to get everyone's input on this and I don't mean to targe anyone in this, but I am not so sure that the public mailing list for Wikimedia ZA is the best place to be airing misunderstandings between members. Perhaps a more direct exchange between the concernd parties to sort these sorts of things out might be more efficient and a public airing be more of a last ditch attempt? After all a dispute on a public mailing list can become distracting from our core goals for everyone else on the list.
Cheers,
Douglas.
On 29 July 2012 15:21, Lourie Pieterse louriepieterse@yahoo.com wrote:
Hello everyone
I managed to complete the report for the Gauteng meeting: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:WM_ZA/Gauteng_meeting/Report.
The actual receipts of the expenses was only send to the board list, as it contains personal information about myself. In the report you can see the details regarding the specific expenses and also the remaining balance for this grant. We asked the WMF whether we can transfer this amount for use in Wiki Loves Monuments. As soon as my questions are answered by Charlene regarding the bank account I will transfer the remaining balance, because currently it seems to me that we might have problems accessing the money should it be transferred to this account. Feel free to ask me if there are any questions regarding this report.
Kind regards Lourie
WikimediaZA mailing list WikimediaZA@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaza
-- Douglas Ian Scott 司道格 Skype: douglas0scott UK mobile number: +44 (0)755 452 5277 Chinese mobile number: +86 1 364 330 7351 South African mobile number: +27 (0)79 515 872
Dear Douglas
Ok, well noted.
Kind Regards
Blessing
From: wikimediaza-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikimediaza-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Douglas Scott Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 6:20 PM To: Lourie Pieterse Cc: WikimediaZA Subject: Re: [Wikimedia ZA] Gauteng meeting report (general list)
Thanks for the clarification Lourie. My dad was an accountant and the accountant in me always seems to come out a bit when I see tables detailing expenses.
I am happy that Ian has shared his thoughts with us as it does seem to have been a long running issue. I have added his email to the page that Dumi created at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:WM_ZA/Gauteng_meeting/Report/SMS http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:WM_ZA/Gauteng_meeting/Report/SMS for people who wish to comment on this issue further. I have left my thoughts there as well.
@Blessing: as Lourie said, Wikimedia is an open organisation and anyone is welcome to attend and indeed if you have an interest in attending I would encourage you to do so. If you want to volunteer for anything then please do, it would be great to have you on board.
Cheers,
Douglas.
On 30 July 2012 16:07, Lourie Pieterse louriepieterse@yahoo.com wrote:
Hello Douglas
I have added a note that explains only one round-trip ticket was bought. I used my frequent flyer points for one of the tickets, that is why it is a bit cheaper than normally. I thought about this for a while and agree that we should not air such opinions on the public list, even though I do agree with Ian's argument. For those interested, Dumisani created the following page to continue this discussion: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:WM_ZA/Gauteng_meeting/Report/SMS.
Kind regards
Lourie
_____
From: Douglas Scott douglas.i.scott@gmail.com To: Lourie Pieterse louriepieterse@yahoo.com Cc: WikimediaZA wikimediaza@lists.wikimedia.org; Charlene Foster afrastocracy@gmail.com; WikimediaZA Board wikimedia-za-board@lists.wikimedia.org
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 6:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia ZA] Gauteng meeting report (general list)
Hi Lourie,
The report looks good, just one question, how many airline tickets were bought in the end? Just one or two? Could the number(s) be reflected in the expenses table?
Good going on the meeting everyone and sorry I was not able to make it. And thank you Lourie, Isla, Dumi and everyone else for all the hard work you are putting into this.
P.S.
On a general side note for everyone on our mailing list, and I would like to get everyone's input on this and I don't mean to targe anyone in this, but I am not so sure that the public mailing list for Wikimedia ZA is the best place to be airing misunderstandings between members. Perhaps a more direct exchange between the concernd parties to sort these sorts of things out might be more efficient and a public airing be more of a last ditch attempt? After all a dispute on a public mailing list can become distracting from our core goals for everyone else on the list.
Cheers,
Douglas.
On 29 July 2012 15:21, Lourie Pieterse louriepieterse@yahoo.com wrote:
Hello everyone
I managed to complete the report for the Gauteng meeting: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:WM_ZA/Gauteng_meeting/Report.
The actual receipts of the expenses was only send to the board list, as it contains personal information about myself. In the report you can see the details regarding the specific expenses and also the remaining balance for this grant. We asked the WMF whether we can transfer this amount for use in Wiki Loves Monuments. As soon as my questions are answered by Charlene regarding the bank account I will transfer the remaining balance, because currently it seems to me that we might have problems accessing the money should it be transferred to this account. Feel free to ask me if there are any questions regarding this report.
Kind regards
Lourie
_______________________________________________ WikimediaZA mailing list WikimediaZA@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaza
wikimediaza@lists.wikimedia.org