Hi everyone,
During the weeks running up to Wikipedia 10 event, there was a talk on requesting a developers list for India specific discussions.
The need for an India specific developers list is quite obvious considering that we have several Indian language projects on Wikimedia, each needing specific attention in terms of technology to improve contributions and community.
Considering that there is growing interest in India about Wikimedia, about mediawiki - platform that runs Wikipedia and related projects; taking into account that there is a growing community of developers interested to contribute, develop on India specific projects, an India specific list of developers seems to be a necessity.
The initial request for a mailing list was made in December: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=26436
However, there hasn't been consensus yet. There was discussion on whether this would create unnecessary fragmentation.
Here's inviting thoughts, opinions. Or support, if we can gather some for creation of this mailing list.
On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 8:42 AM, Hari Prasad Nadig hpnadig@gmail.comwrote:
Hi everyone,
During the weeks running up to Wikipedia 10 event, there was a talk on requesting a developers list for India specific discussions.
The need for an India specific developers list is quite obvious considering that we have several Indian language projects on Wikimedia, each needing specific attention in terms of technology to improve contributions and community.
Considering that there is growing interest in India about Wikimedia, about mediawiki - platform that runs Wikipedia and related projects; taking into account that there is a growing community of developers interested to contribute, develop on India specific projects, an India specific list of developers seems to be a necessity.
The initial request for a mailing list was made in December: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=26436
However, there hasn't been consensus yet. There was discussion on whether this would create unnecessary fragmentation.
Here's inviting thoughts, opinions. Or support, if we can gather some for creation of this mailing list.
Good idea. It will be useful.
Cheers Arjun
On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 8:42 AM, Hari Prasad Nadig hpnadig@gmail.com wrote:
Hi everyone,
During the weeks running up to Wikipedia 10 event, there was a talk on requesting a developers list for India specific discussions.
The need for an India specific developers list is quite obvious considering that we have several Indian language projects on Wikimedia, each needing specific attention in terms of technology to improve contributions and community.
Considering that there is growing interest in India about Wikimedia, about mediawiki - platform that runs Wikipedia and related projects; taking into account that there is a growing community of developers interested to contribute, develop on India specific projects, an India specific list of developers seems to be a necessity.
Steps need to be implemented is much bigger than a list. Newly formed Wikimedia India foundation need to Focus on this angle. Technology Development for Complex Script Languages such as Indic is still a neglected field in wikipedia. We have seen many posts about this in this list. What wikimedia India foundation need to do is to organise Developer meetups, Pushing Indic Specific development projects in Programmes like Google Summer of Code of media wiki, Increase the participation of students in wiki specific software projects, Support innovative ideas with financial support etc.
New Foundation need to focus on building a strategy towards this. It will be good to start a list with a discussion on these grounds may be in Wikimedia.in domain, if it is not approved in lists.wikimedia.org
Anivar Aravind
Dear Hari and others,
I think there is no obvious need whatsoever for an "Indian language developers list". If there are issues the require attention and discussion related to language support in MediaWiki, there are three mailing lists that qualify for discussion already depending on the exact topic -, and bugzilla[1] is the place to register the issue. Please be aware that cocooning leads to separation, while one of the strongpoints of the Wikimedia movements is being involved worldwide.
Mailing lists: * MediaWiki language support: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-i18n * Wikimedia related technology: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l * Wikimedia translators: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/translators-l Of these three lists, currently only wikitech-l has a reasonable volume. The other lists are direly awaiting issues you will raise and discuss. For hardcore translation contributions for MediaWiki and its extensions, you are of course very welcome at https://translatewiki.net. Many Indian language need a lot more love with regards to localisation.
I hope you will reconsider having a need for a separate mailing list for developers with regards to language support for languages from India.
Cheers!
Siebrand Mazeland translatewiki.net staff MediaWiki developer
[1] https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=26436
Van: Hari Prasad Nadig hpnadig@gmail.com Beantwoorden - Aan: "Discussion list on Indian language projects of Wikimedia." wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Datum: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 08:42:01 +0530 Aan: Wikimedia India List wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Onderwerp: [Wikimediaindia-l] Developers list for India specific discussions
The need for an India specific developers list is quite obvious considering that we have several Indian language projects on Wikimedia, each needing specific attention in terms of technology to improve contributions and community.
Considering that there is growing interest in India about Wikimedia, about mediawiki - platform that runs Wikipedia and related projects; taking into account that there is a growing community of developers interested to contribute, develop on India specific projects, an India specific list of developers seems to be a necessity.
The initial request for a mailing list was made in December: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=26436
On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 2:34 PM, Siebrand Mazeland s.mazeland@xs4all.nlwrote:
Dear Hari and others,
I think there is no obvious need whatsoever for an "Indian language developers list". If there are issues the require attention and discussion related to language support in MediaWiki, there are three mailing lists that qualify for discussion already – depending on the exact topic -, and bugzilla[1] is the place to register the issue. Please be aware that cocooning leads to separation, while one of the strongpoints of the Wikimedia movements is being involved worldwide.
Mailing lists:
- MediaWiki language support:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-i18n
- Wikimedia related technology:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
- Wikimedia translators:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/translators-l
Dear Siebrand,
Thanks for the response. I respect your view. However, I still feel that an India specific list could gather more interest among developers from India. mediawiki-i18n list is probably the closest to the purpose, but I'd still look forward to hearing more opinions and thoughts.
Just so that it is clear, the intentions are definitely not to cocoon, or work in separation. The idea is instead to have a specific list that could drive more specific discussion, and thereby gathering more people who'd be willing to spare their time on issues specific to Indian languages. I think a fair volume of this crowd will also be on the other lists for everything else (and they'll need to). We'll need as many people on board as we can to solve various issues the Indian language projects are facing.
Regards,
I strongly conjure with Hari's thoughts on this. -Tinu Cherian
On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 5:06 PM, Hari Prasad Nadig hpnadig@gmail.comwrote:
On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 2:34 PM, Siebrand Mazeland s.mazeland@xs4all.nlwrote:
Dear Hari and others,
I think there is no obvious need whatsoever for an "Indian language developers list". If there are issues the require attention and discussion related to language support in MediaWiki, there are three mailing lists that qualify for discussion already – depending on the exact topic -, and bugzilla[1] is the place to register the issue. Please be aware that cocooning leads to separation, while one of the strongpoints of the Wikimedia movements is being involved worldwide.
Mailing lists:
- MediaWiki language support:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-i18n
- Wikimedia related technology:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
- Wikimedia translators:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/translators-l
Dear Siebrand,
Thanks for the response. I respect your view. However, I still feel that an India specific list could gather more interest among developers from India. mediawiki-i18n list is probably the closest to the purpose, but I'd still look forward to hearing more opinions and thoughts.
Just so that it is clear, the intentions are definitely not to cocoon, or work in separation. The idea is instead to have a specific list that could drive more specific discussion, and thereby gathering more people who'd be willing to spare their time on issues specific to Indian languages. I think a fair volume of this crowd will also be on the other lists for everything else (and they'll need to). We'll need as many people on board as we can to solve various issues the Indian language projects are facing.
Regards,
-- Hari Prasad Nadig http://hpnadig.net | http://twitter.com/hpnadig http://flickr.com/hpnadig
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Hoi, Many if not most of the issues that bedevil Indian languages are not specific to Indian languages. On my blog and on conferences I have been talking about these issues frequently. By discussing this on a India specific list, you remove everything that is relevant from the eyes of those people like me who do not only care about India but also care about similar problems elsewhere.
Did you know that languages from Africa who use the Latin script use characters that you do not find in Latin fonts ??
Did you know that while it is wonderful that there is now an extension that supports input methods for Indic languages, it would be preferable to have its functionality in the MediaWiki core ??
I do not want to lose track on these issues so I URGE you all not to separate yourself. It will make *all of us* less effective. Thanks, GerardM
http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com/search/label/India
On 31 January 2011 12:36, Hari Prasad Nadig hpnadig@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 2:34 PM, Siebrand Mazeland s.mazeland@xs4all.nlwrote:
Dear Hari and others,
I think there is no obvious need whatsoever for an "Indian language developers list". If there are issues the require attention and discussion related to language support in MediaWiki, there are three mailing lists that qualify for discussion already – depending on the exact topic -, and bugzilla[1] is the place to register the issue. Please be aware that cocooning leads to separation, while one of the strongpoints of the Wikimedia movements is being involved worldwide.
Mailing lists:
- MediaWiki language support:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-i18n
- Wikimedia related technology:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
- Wikimedia translators:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/translators-l
Dear Siebrand,
Thanks for the response. I respect your view. However, I still feel that an India specific list could gather more interest among developers from India. mediawiki-i18n list is probably the closest to the purpose, but I'd still look forward to hearing more opinions and thoughts.
Just so that it is clear, the intentions are definitely not to cocoon, or work in separation. The idea is instead to have a specific list that could drive more specific discussion, and thereby gathering more people who'd be willing to spare their time on issues specific to Indian languages. I think a fair volume of this crowd will also be on the other lists for everything else (and they'll need to). We'll need as many people on board as we can to solve various issues the Indian language projects are facing.
Regards,
-- Hari Prasad Nadig http://hpnadig.net | http://twitter.com/hpnadig http://flickr.com/hpnadig
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 6:08 PM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.comwrote:
Hoi, Many if not most of the issues that bedevil Indian languages are not specific to Indian languages. On my blog and on conferences I have been talking about these issues frequently. By discussing this on a India specific list, you remove everything that is relevant from the eyes of those people like me who do not only care about India but also care about similar problems elsewhere.
Did you know that languages from Africa who use the Latin script use characters that you do not find in Latin fonts ??
Did you know that while it is wonderful that there is now an extension that supports input methods for Indic languages, it would be preferable to have its functionality in the MediaWiki core ??
I do not want to lose track on these issues so I URGE you all not to separate yourself. It will make *all of us* less effective.
Hoi Gerard,
First of, thanks much for your views. Much appreciated. Now, it is not that it will get separated and all that. And not getting any new list created just yet. Just hearing out thoughts, views (and if majority feel there's a requirement for one such list, some support thereby).
Not sure whether I've been able to put it properly, but the real intention behind even proposing such a list was to *gather* more people for discussing and working on issues surrounding Indian languages. And that a more specific list would gather more interest than the common list.
Hi,
I think currently there is no need to create a separate list for Indian language developments. In developers viewpoint all software development issues would be universal. It is only in the presentation things differ.
If any issue related to any of Indian language needs attention we can discuss it at mediawiki-i18nhttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-i18n(still that list has very low traffic). There are more developers available at that list, they also will join to solve the problems.
On 31 January 2011 16:58, Hari Prasad Nadig hpnadig@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 6:08 PM, Gerard Meijssen < gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
Hoi, Many if not most of the issues that bedevil Indian languages are not specific to Indian languages. On my blog and on conferences I have been talking about these issues frequently. By discussing this on a India specific list, you remove everything that is relevant from the eyes of those people like me who do not only care about India but also care about similar problems elsewhere.
Did you know that languages from Africa who use the Latin script use characters that you do not find in Latin fonts ??
Did you know that while it is wonderful that there is now an extension that supports input methods for Indic languages, it would be preferable to have its functionality in the MediaWiki core ??
I do not want to lose track on these issues so I URGE you all not to separate yourself. It will make *all of us* less effective.
Hoi Gerard,
First of, thanks much for your views. Much appreciated. Now, it is not that it will get separated and all that. And not getting any new list created just yet. Just hearing out thoughts, views (and if majority feel there's a requirement for one such list, some support thereby).
Not sure whether I've been able to put it properly, but the real intention behind even proposing such a list was to *gather* more people for discussing and working on issues surrounding Indian languages. And that a more specific list would gather more interest than the common list. -- Hari Prasad Nadig http://hpnadig.net | http://twitter.com/hpnadig http://flickr.com/hpnadig
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Hi, I think Siebrand is correct! From what I see from wiki projects, I feel problems in Indian languages are common with other non-Indian complex scripts. If we create an 'Indian language developers list', I think that will be an unnecessary dividing of development power.
But also I think mediawiki should consider non-latin script probems more seriously. (For eg: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=21497 an old bug, still not fixed. Other common SVG rendering is also bad (a server problem ?), please see https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=25140. I am almost sure that these bugs affects all complex scripts, than just Indian languages.)
Praveen
On Monday 31 January 2011 02:34 PM, Siebrand Mazeland wrote:
Dear Hari and others,
I think there is no obvious need whatsoever for an "Indian language developers list". If there are issues the require attention and discussion related to language support in MediaWiki, there are three mailing lists that qualify for discussion already -- depending on the exact topic -, and bugzilla[1] is the place to register the issue. Please be aware that cocooning leads to separation, while one of the strongpoints of the Wikimedia movements is being involved worldwide.
Mailing lists:
* MediaWiki language support: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-i18n * Wikimedia related technology: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l * Wikimedia translators: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/translators-lOf these three lists, currently only wikitech-l has a reasonable volume. The other lists are direly awaiting issues you will raise and discuss. For hardcore translation contributions for MediaWiki and its extensions, you are of course very welcome at https://translatewiki.net. Many Indian language need a lot more love with regards to localisation.
I hope you will reconsider having a need for a separate mailing list for developers with regards to language support for languages from India.
Cheers!
I tend to agree with Gerard's views & Siebrand's points. Since there are many lists , Yet another list will be a waste . There are many lists for Indic Specific issues such as Indlinux list, which can be also used to connect with indic developers
Anivar
On 1/31/11, praveenp me.praveen@gmail.com wrote:
Hi, I think Siebrand is correct! From what I see from wiki projects, I feel problems in Indian languages are common with other non-Indian complex scripts. If we create an 'Indian language developers list', I think that will be an unnecessary dividing of development power.
But also I think mediawiki should consider non-latin script probems more seriously. (For eg: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=21497 an old bug, still not fixed. Other common SVG rendering is also bad (a server problem ?), please see https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=25140. I am almost sure that these bugs affects all complex scripts, than just Indian languages.)
Praveen
On Monday 31 January 2011 02:34 PM, Siebrand Mazeland wrote:
Dear Hari and others,
I think there is no obvious need whatsoever for an "Indian language developers list". If there are issues the require attention and discussion related to language support in MediaWiki, there are three mailing lists that qualify for discussion already -- depending on the exact topic -, and bugzilla[1] is the place to register the issue. Please be aware that cocooning leads to separation, while one of the strongpoints of the Wikimedia movements is being involved worldwide.
Mailing lists:
* MediaWiki language support: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-i18n * Wikimedia related technology: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l * Wikimedia translators: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/translators-lOf these three lists, currently only wikitech-l has a reasonable volume. The other lists are direly awaiting issues you will raise and discuss. For hardcore translation contributions for MediaWiki and its extensions, you are of course very welcome at https://translatewiki.net. Many Indian language need a lot more love with regards to localisation.
I hope you will reconsider having a need for a separate mailing list for developers with regards to language support for languages from India.
Cheers!
Hi, I am also agree with Mr. hari prasad point of view because a separate developer list for indic languages will help these languages project to resolve any technical issue easily because most of them are facing the same problems, In coming time Indian languages wii projects are aspected to grow fast that's what wiki media foundation want so a separate developer list will help these smaller project to get their bugs resolved easily.
Thank you and regards Mayur
On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 9:39 PM, Anivar Aravind anivar.aravind@gmail.comwrote:
I tend to agree with Gerard's views & Siebrand's points. Since there are many lists , Yet another list will be a waste . There are many lists for Indic Specific issues such as Indlinux list, which can be also used to connect with indic developers
Anivar
On 1/31/11, praveenp me.praveen@gmail.com wrote:
Hi, I think Siebrand is correct! From what I see from wiki projects, I feel problems in Indian languages are common with other non-Indian complex scripts. If we create an 'Indian language developers list', I think that will be an unnecessary dividing of development power.
But also I think mediawiki should consider non-latin script probems more seriously. (For eg: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=21497 an old bug, still not fixed. Other common SVG rendering is also bad (a server problem ?), please see https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=25140. I am almost sure that these bugs affects all complex scripts, than just Indian languages.)
Praveen
On Monday 31 January 2011 02:34 PM, Siebrand Mazeland wrote:
Dear Hari and others,
I think there is no obvious need whatsoever for an "Indian language developers list". If there are issues the require attention and discussion related to language support in MediaWiki, there are three mailing lists that qualify for discussion already -- depending on the exact topic -, and bugzilla[1] is the place to register the issue. Please be aware that cocooning leads to separation, while one of the strongpoints of the Wikimedia movements is being involved worldwide.
Mailing lists:
* MediaWiki language support: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-i18n * Wikimedia related technology: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l * Wikimedia translators: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/translators-lOf these three lists, currently only wikitech-l has a reasonable volume. The other lists are direly awaiting issues you will raise and discuss. For hardcore translation contributions for MediaWiki and its extensions, you are of course very welcome at https://translatewiki.net. Many Indian language need a lot more love with regards to localisation.
I hope you will reconsider having a need for a separate mailing list for developers with regards to language support for languages from
India.
Cheers!
-- "[It is not] possible to distinguish between 'numerical' and 'nonnumerical' algorithms, as if numbers were somehow different from other kinds of precise information." - Donald Knuth
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Hi Mayur and others,
Sorry to be blunt this reply is not specifically aimed at you, but at the group thinking that I see before me -, but there are a few things that will get your troubles out of the way as soon as possible. "Getting a room" and separating yourself from most of the MediaWiki and Wikimedia developers is not one of them this is true for most open source development topics, not only for Indic language support in MediaWiki and within Wikimedia. Talking about issues without naming the players also does not resolve issues. Expecting the Wikimedia Foundation (or its developers) to be the answer to all your prayers does not resolve issues. You will be disappointed. Do take responsibility for what you need; act upon it!
So what does get issues resolved? 1. Report issues in bugzilla. Please start now! Issues that have not been documented do not exist. Good bug reports consist of 4 parts. A description of the issue, steps to reproduce, description of observed behaviour and description of expected behaviour. If needed, add one or more screenshots and links: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org 2. Fix the issues and submit the patches. As said, issues can be found in Bugzilla with the i18n tag: http://is.gd/p82m8V 3. Get more i18n centric committers from India, or more i18n committers in general. To become a committer, do a lot of what is described in 2. Once you have done that, go to http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Commit_access and get even more work as a reward for a job well done. Really good at what you do for MediaWiki and Wikimedia? There may be a job for you at the Wikimedia Foundation. More than a handful of formerly volunteer developers have come before you. Siebrand
Van: mayur mayurdce@gmail.com Beantwoorden - Aan: "Discussion list on Indian language projects of Wikimedia." wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Datum: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 22:43:52 +0530 Aan: "Discussion list on Indian language projects of Wikimedia." wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Onderwerp: Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Developers list for India specific discussions
Hi, I am also agree with Mr. hari prasad point of view because a separate developer list for indic languages will help these languages project to resolve any technical issue easily because most of them are facing the same problems, In coming time Indian languages wii projects are aspected to grow fast that's what wiki media foundation want so a separate developer list will help these smaller project to get their bugs resolved easily.
Thank you and regards Mayur
wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org