Dear Hari and Anirudh,
As moderators of WikimediaIndia-l, could you describe the policy you normally adopt towards moderation?
Do you only block obvious spam or other messages, and if so on what basis?
I am naturally curious since a message from Praveen that you only just released seems to have been sent in 3 days ago.
Furthermore, I think we'd benefit from understanding how people may apply to become administrators on this list.
In light of Anirudh's recent appointment to administrator of this list, is there an open process by which other members might apply? (Foundation-l seems to have three administrators, though I would imagine that there is nothing stopping WikimediaIndia-l from having more than three).
Please note that I don't ask with persecutory intent, but merely to clear gaps in my own understanding, which might be a problem that other people on this list face as well. Since WikimediaIndia-l is such an important place for all kinds of conversations that cut across the movement in India, it's in all our interests to know exactly how it is managed.
Best regards, Achal
HI Achal,
On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 12:44 PM, Achal Prabhala aprabhala@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Hari and Anirudh,
As moderators of WikimediaIndia-l, could you describe the policy you normally adopt towards moderation?
Do you only block obvious spam or other messages, and if so on what basis?
I am naturally curious since a message from Praveen that you only just released seems to have been sent in 3 days ago.
I'm not privy to the settings on this list, but here is what I think happened. This list is not moderated per ante, or the moderators would have to approve all of our messages, whether we're subscribed or not. So it's probably only "auto-moderated" through the spam filter, which means that messages that the mailman spam filter considers spam are put on hold. This is where the moderators come into play. They have to review messages and decide what is spam and what is not.
Being an admin on many other wikimedia mailing lists, I can tell you from my own experience that on an open subscription list (like this one), the amount of spam is usually important, but that very few people actually try to write to the list while not subscribed. Which means that as an admin, you probably only need to check every few days to make sure nothing got caught that shouldn't have been.
Now, Praveen's email has an image embedded in it... and that, my friend, is very quickly considered spam by mailman (the software). So my take is that his email (although he is a member of this list) was considered spam and held for moderation by the software. The mods checking in a fews days later released the message, hence the delay. So I would not see any act of moderation from anyone human in this delayed message...in an ideal world, it should not have been blocked in the first place, but mailman's spam filter is a killer.
Furthermore, I think we'd benefit from understanding how people may apply to become administrators on this list.
In light of Anirudh's recent appointment to administrator of this list, is there an open process by which other members might apply? (Foundation-l seems to have three administrators, though I would imagine that there is nothing stopping WikimediaIndia-l from having more than three).
In such country/chapter-related lists, the "usual practice" is to have anyone interested to say "I'll moderate", and given they are not a famous troll, give them the tools. Now, let's face it, moderation is a big word, unless the list is really heated and personal attacks fly around all the time. The moderator "work" usually involves more "janitor work" (see above the spam explanation) than real moderation and can become really "not fun". So you need motivated people who are not just trying to make it look as if they'll be doing anything. :P
This said, experience tells me that 3/4 moderators is a good number, so that when/if moderation needs to occur, mods can exchange between themselves as to whether moderation is needed on a particular topic/of a particular individual. More people, in my experience, usually leads to stagnation, as mods expects the other mods will have cleared the spam and checked the messages held and don't bother looking at the queue (been there, done that).
Cheers,
Delphine
Hi Achal,
On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 5:14 PM, Achal Prabhala aprabhala@gmail.com wrote:
As moderators of WikimediaIndia-l, could you describe the policy you normally adopt towards moderation?
Thank you for the email. You can review the Wikimedia mailing lists administration page for information about the role of list admins and mods. Here is a link which you can review: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Administration
Do you only block obvious spam or other messages, and if so on what basis?
The spam filter on default catches spam and other bulky messages (including ones that have image(s) embedded in them.) I think Delphine's email contains a nice explanation.
List mods can moderate trolls and other problem users who willfully cause or contribute to disruption on the mailing list.
I am naturally curious since a message from Praveen that you only just released seems to have been sent in 3 days ago.
Furthermore, I think we'd benefit from understanding how people may apply to become administrators on this list.
I understand the source of curiosity and would like to clarify that Praveen's email was caught in the filter because it had an image embedded in it.
In light of Anirudh's recent appointment to administrator of this list, is there an open process by which other members might apply? (Foundation-l seems to have three administrators, though I would imagine that there is nothing stopping WikimediaIndia-l from having more than three).
There is no formal process for "appointment" of list administrators. The usual practice on Wikimedia lists is for the founder of a mailing list to appoint admins and mods whom s/he can trust with keeping the lists running as smoothly as possible.
At this point of time, we don't feel the need for having more list administrators, however list subscribers who are interested in keeping a check on the spam filter as moderators can write an email to either list admins.
Please note that I don't ask with persecutory intent, but merely to clear gaps in my own understanding, which might be a problem that other people on this list face as well. Since WikimediaIndia-l is such an important place for all kinds of conversations that cut across the movement in India, it's in all our interests to know exactly how it is managed.
For more information, please review the following pages:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Overview
Best regards, Achal
Best, Anirudh Bhati
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
My last message has only 112 kb even with that embedded image. A 112 kb message is not bulky in these days. Some people told me that mail man will not block any message if there is nothing to load from outside. I remember once I used "donate to wikipedia" image in all my message, but never get any problem in any list. If thats also true for this list, please increase maximum message size for the list (500 kb or atleast 300 kb?).
I saw Jyothis' messge to other thread was also under moderation for about 14 hrs (probably because he quoted me :D).
On Saturday 12 February 2011 02:44 PM, Anirudh Bhati wrote:
Hi Achal,
On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 5:14 PM, Achal Prabhala <aprabhala@gmail.com mailto:aprabhala@gmail.com> wrote:
As moderators of WikimediaIndia-l, could you describe the policy you normally adopt towards moderation?Thank you for the email. You can review the Wikimedia mailing lists administration page for information about the role of list admins and mods. Here is a link which you can review: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Administration
Do you only block obvious spam or other messages, and if so on what basis?The spam filter on default catches spam and other bulky messages (including ones that have image(s) embedded in them.) I think Delphine's email contains a nice explanation.
List mods can moderate trolls and other problem users who willfully cause or contribute to disruption on the mailing list.
I am naturally curious since a message from Praveen that you only just released seems to have been sent in 3 days ago. Furthermore, I think we'd benefit from understanding how people may apply to become administrators on this list.I understand the source of curiosity and would like to clarify that Praveen's email was caught in the filter because it had an image embedded in it.
In light of Anirudh's recent appointment to administrator of this list, is there an open process by which other members might apply? (Foundation-l seems to have three administrators, though I would imagine that there is nothing stopping WikimediaIndia-l from having more than three).There is no formal process for "appointment" of list administrators. The usual practice on Wikimedia lists is for the founder of a mailing list to appoint admins and mods whom s/he can trust with keeping the lists running as smoothly as possible.
At this point of time, we don't feel the need for having more list administrators, however list subscribers who are interested in keeping a check on the spam filter as moderators can write an email to either list admins.
Please note that I don't ask with persecutory intent, but merely to clear gaps in my own understanding, which might be a problem that other people on this list face as well. Since WikimediaIndia-l is such an important place for all kinds of conversations that cut across the movement in India, it's in all our interests to know exactly how it is managed.For more information, please review the following pages:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Overview
Best regards, AchalBest, Anirudh Bhati
_______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Hoi, As someone who is interested in how India and its projects are doing, the India mailing list is a treasure to me. I am afraid that the current type of bickering will have people move away, first from the mailing list and potentially away from our projects. The objective of both this list and the chapter is the opposite; it should function as an enabling force. As more responsibility is shared more will get done and the potential and power of the chapter and the movement grows Thanks, GerardM
http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com/2011/02/indian-growing-pains.html
On 11 February 2011 12:44, Achal Prabhala aprabhala@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Hari and Anirudh,
As moderators of WikimediaIndia-l, could you describe the policy you normally adopt towards moderation?
Do you only block obvious spam or other messages, and if so on what basis?
I am naturally curious since a message from Praveen that you only just released seems to have been sent in 3 days ago.
Furthermore, I think we'd benefit from understanding how people may apply to become administrators on this list.
In light of Anirudh's recent appointment to administrator of this list, is there an open process by which other members might apply? (Foundation-l seems to have three administrators, though I would imagine that there is nothing stopping WikimediaIndia-l from having more than three).
Please note that I don't ask with persecutory intent, but merely to clear gaps in my own understanding, which might be a problem that other people on this list face as well. Since WikimediaIndia-l is such an important place for all kinds of conversations that cut across the movement in India, it's in all our interests to know exactly how it is managed.
Best regards, Achal
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Hari,
As the situation has worsened to the levels that EC is now been accused of being here for swindling money ("auctioning off membership") and selective moderation in the mailing list (unfairly in both counts IMO), please be blunt and do clear the air without niceties. The basic questions raised about EC are the following:
1) Why was the election held without informing others of the agenda (the EC answered that it was a required step to formalise the organisation per registration rules, )
2) Why was the delay in communication about the 22 Jan meeting (the EC answered that as a formal org now, they cannot issue communiques without first having the paperwork in place)
3) Why were the leadership designations changed among the EC members. (This hasnt been answered as far as i know)
4) Why was Praveen's mail moderated ( clearly answered; because it got caught in the spam filters due to an embedded HTML)
I am pretty much satisfied with 1, 2 and 4. But 3 hasnt been answered and people are now accusing you of being a "sekret cabal". I am a new member to the list and as someone uninvolved, my humble suggestions to clear the air are:
1) Answer no 3 and any other questions people have been asking 2) Bluntly define the chapter's role - not the MoA/constitution etc (people are under the impression that the chapter can get involved in deletion discussions in commons) 3) Get some non EC moderators to the mailing list immediately to avoid any appearance of conflict of interest.
regards Bala
Hello Everyone:
I'm using Bala's email because I think he's done a great job of summarizing the various issues on this thread.
- Why was the election held without informing others of the agenda (the EC
answered that it was a required step to formalise the organisation per registration rules, )
This is correct - while the MoA (apologies, Pradeep) requires this to have been done post registration - maybe we were wrong in not communicating this earlier or in a more transparent manner but this ties in to point two below.
- Why was the delay in communication about the 22 Jan meeting (the EC
answered that as a formal org now, they cannot issue communiques without first having the paperwork in place)
Having been bitten more than once with the legal complexities around the registration of the Chapter, we wanted to play safe on this and dot all the i's and cross all the t's before making a public statement.
- Why were the leadership designations changed among the EC members. (This
hasnt been answered as far as i know)
It isn't that the designations were changed, so to speak. Post registration, we had to elect office bearers and during this election, these posts changes. Hence.
- Why was Praveen's mail moderated ( clearly answered; because it got
caught in the spam filters due to an embedded HTML)
This would be my assumption too - good faith holds. That said, yes, I think it would be nice to have a wider representation of admins and that this is clearly the India list and not the India Chapter list.
Thank you.
Best,
Gautam ________ http://social.prathambooks.org/
Hi,
On Monday 14 February 2011 09:23 AM, Bala Jeyaraman wrote:
Hari,
As the situation has worsened to the levels that EC is now been accused of being here for swindling money ("auctioning off membership") and selective moderation in the mailing list (unfairly in both counts IMO), please be blunt and do clear the air without niceties. The basic questions raised about EC are the following:
Actioning off membership is a satiric or exaggerated reply to the mail which has an entirely non-related subject (bank account) from original thread.
- Why was the election held without informing others of the agenda
(the EC answered that it was a required step to formalise the organisation per registration rules, )
- Why was the delay in communication about the 22 Jan meeting (the EC
answered that as a formal org now, they cannot issue communiques without first having the paperwork in place)
More than that, why no mentioning about Jan 22 meeting and about new names in the thread which discussing chapter's transparency (Jan last week). I believe chapter do not need to wait until finishing paperwork for sharing information with community.
- Why were the leadership designations changed among the EC members.
(This hasnt been answered as far as i know)
- Why was Praveen's mail moderated ( clearly answered; because it got
caught in the spam filters due to an embedded HTML)
I am pretty much satisfied with 1, 2 and 4. But 3 hasnt been answered and people are now accusing you of being a "sekret cabal". I am a new member to the list and as someone uninvolved, my humble suggestions to clear the air are:
- Answer no 3 and any other questions people have been asking
- Bluntly define the chapter's role - not the MoA/constitution etc
(people are under the impression that the chapter can get involved in deletion discussions in commons)
I think Bala misread that mail. Somebody asked me to share any Idea which chapter can run, I said many images originated from India deleted in commons because there is no proper source or license for many images. And if we've proper agreement with any museum or art gallery (most of them are under central or state govts) like Tropenmuseum project, that will be useful. Once chapter initiate such process, I am sure interested people will join and take hold.
- Get some non EC moderators to the mailing list immediately to avoid
any appearance of conflict of interest.
regards Bala
Praveen
I think Bala misread that mail. Somebody asked me to share any Idea
which chapter can run, I said many images originated from India deleted in commons because there is no proper source or license for many images. And if we've proper agreement with any museum or art gallery (most of them are under central or state govts) like Tropenmuseum project, that will be useful. Once chapter initiate such process, I am sure interested people will join and take hold.
Oops. sorry about that :-). I misunderstood that you were asking for intervention in deletion discussions. My bad.
On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 11:30 AM, praveenp me.praveen@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
On Monday 14 February 2011 09:23 AM, Bala Jeyaraman wrote:
Hari,
As the situation has worsened to the levels that EC is now been accused of being here for swindling money ("auctioning off membership") and selective moderation in the mailing list (unfairly in both counts IMO), please be blunt and do clear the air without niceties. The basic questions raised about EC are the following:
Actioning off membership is a satiric or exaggerated reply to the mail which has an entirely non-related subject (bank account) from original thread.
- Why was the election held without informing others of the agenda
(the EC answered that it was a required step to formalise the organisation per registration rules, )
- Why was the delay in communication about the 22 Jan meeting (the EC
answered that as a formal org now, they cannot issue communiques without first having the paperwork in place)
More than that, why no mentioning about Jan 22 meeting and about new names in the thread which discussing chapter's transparency (Jan last week). I believe chapter do not need to wait until finishing paperwork for sharing information with community.
- Why were the leadership designations changed among the EC members.
(This hasnt been answered as far as i know)
- Why was Praveen's mail moderated ( clearly answered; because it got
caught in the spam filters due to an embedded HTML)
I am pretty much satisfied with 1, 2 and 4. But 3 hasnt been answered and people are now accusing you of being a "sekret cabal". I am a new member to the list and as someone uninvolved, my humble suggestions to clear the air are:
- Answer no 3 and any other questions people have been asking
- Bluntly define the chapter's role - not the MoA/constitution etc
(people are under the impression that the chapter can get involved in deletion discussions in commons)
I think Bala misread that mail. Somebody asked me to share any Idea which chapter can run, I said many images originated from India deleted in commons because there is no proper source or license for many images. And if we've proper agreement with any museum or art gallery (most of them are under central or state govts) like Tropenmuseum project, that will be useful. Once chapter initiate such process, I am sure interested people will join and take hold.
- Get some non EC moderators to the mailing list immediately to avoid
any appearance of conflict of interest.
regards Bala
Praveen
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 17:14, Achal Prabhala aprabhala@gmail.com wrote:
As moderators of WikimediaIndia-l, could you describe the policy you normally adopt towards moderation?
This is not a primer, but one thing I changed today was increasing message size from 40 KB to 240 KB. Ideally mailing lists dont encourage attachments / huge mails, but sometimes like today Bala had to attach since he couldnt upload to commons.If any of you feel the limit of 240 KB is high / low, please comment. Also remember under current setting anything above 240 KB will not come instantly, patience appreciated :) I think its better to mail a list ettiqute every month annoucing list guidelines since there will be lot of newbies to mailing list (like it will prevent invitations to join blah blah etc). I will put a wiki page on this soon. This will also help people aware of general mailing list ettiqute (lets not call it policy :) )
Regards, Srikanth L
wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org