Hi all,
I'm been given permission to introduce a wiki into my department at work. I've been using mediawiki as a demo to the extent that changing would be hard now, but one feature I'm afraid will kill the wiki quickly is the difficulty of uploading files. While I know wikis are primarily for text content, the first instinct of a new user will be to share the files he's been producing in his pre-wiki days.
As I understand it, the way to upload files right now is to go to Special:Upload, click browse, etc. Then you edit a page and use the [[media:filename|description] syntax. I had one of our most tech savvy users try this and it was comically hard for him. He picked a file with a very long file name and spaces. He got a warning about the renaming and file size that confused him (I can probably configure this). Then he tried to list the files so he could cut and paste the file name (this is way beyond most of the potential users) back in the edit window. This process involved open the file multiple times in the attempt to highlight it. Then we put brackets around the name. Forgot it was two instead of one at first, etc.
Is there any easier way to do this? I'd like to have the user not have to memorize or cut and paste the filename across windows. Where would I look to alter the button above the editing window. I've never coded in php before, but have used other scripting languages (python, perl, etc.).
Any help is greatly appreciated!
Thanks, Greg
On 4/14/05, greg whittier gregwh@gmail.com wrote:
Is there any easier way to do this? I'd like to have the user not have to memorize or cut and paste the filename across windows. Where would I look to alter the button above the editing window. I've never coded in php before, but have used other scripting languages (python, perl, etc.).
Yes, a simple script written for commons by Erik Möller can probably be adapted for your use: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:File_upload_service/Script
On 4/14/05, Dori slowpoke@gmail.com wrote:
On 4/14/05, greg whittier gregwh@gmail.com wrote:
Is there any easier way to do this? I'd like to have the user not have to memorize or cut and paste the filename across windows. Where would I look to alter the button above the editing window. I've never coded in php before, but have used other scripting languages (python, perl, etc.).
Yes, a simple script written for commons by Erik Möller can probably be adapted for your use: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:File_upload_service/Script
Thanks for the tip, but I believe this requires the client to have perl installed on their computer. I was probably confusing by refering to "files." I'm really just worried about making it to upload one file and link to it.
Believe it or not, the current method has a high enough barrier to entry that few of my potential users will bother with it. Basically, I'm looking for a point and click (no typing or cut and pasting filenames) way to do this. I don't need them to upload lots of file. Just one.
Thanks, Greg
On 4/14/05, greg whittier gregwh@gmail.com wrote:
On 4/14/05, Dori slowpoke@gmail.com wrote:
On 4/14/05, greg whittier gregwh@gmail.com wrote:
Is there any easier way to do this? I'd like to have the user not have to memorize or cut and paste the filename across windows. Where would I look to alter the button above the editing window. I've never coded in php before, but have used other scripting languages (python, perl, etc.).
Yes, a simple script written for commons by Erik Möller can probably be adapted for your use: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:File_upload_service/Script
Thanks for the tip, but I believe this requires the client to have perl installed on their computer. I was probably confusing by refering to "files." I'm really just worried about making it to upload one file and link to it.
Believe it or not, the current method has a high enough barrier to entry that few of my potential users will bother with it. Basically, I'm looking for a point and click (no typing or cut and pasting filenames) way to do this. I don't need them to upload lots of file. Just one.
I do find it hard to believe that the current method is difficult. It's as point and click as you can get. If your users find this hard, man wait till you tell them what a wiki is.
Am I missing something? Doesn't the user have to type in [[media:some really long file name -- version 3Apr2005.pdf|my file]] to link to a file after having uploading it?
This user already knew what a wiki and, in fact, was already running a personal wiki (voodoopad). He also had no trouble making new pages with mediawiki. It's just files that were hard!
In MoinMoin typing [attachment:my_file.pdf] creates a link that if clicked prompts the user to upload the file if it doesn't exist already. With my installation of mediawiki, if the file doesn't exist, it just does nothing when you click on it.
I understand that files are not the focus of mediawiki (or wikipedia) and I appreciate the great product. Sorry for the whining and thanks for your time.
Greg
On 4/14/05, Dori slowpoke@gmail.com wrote:
On 4/14/05, greg whittier gregwh@gmail.com wrote:
On 4/14/05, Dori slowpoke@gmail.com wrote:
On 4/14/05, greg whittier gregwh@gmail.com wrote:
Is there any easier way to do this? I'd like to have the user not have to memorize or cut and paste the filename across windows. Where would I look to alter the button above the editing window. I've never coded in php before, but have used other scripting languages (python, perl, etc.).
Yes, a simple script written for commons by Erik Möller can probably be adapted for your use:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:File_upload_service/Script
Thanks for the tip, but I believe this requires the client to have perl installed on their computer. I was probably confusing by refering to "files." I'm really just worried about making it to upload one file and link to it.
Believe it or not, the current method has a high enough barrier to entry that few of my potential users will bother with it. Basically, I'm looking for a point and click (no typing or cut and pasting filenames) way to do this. I don't need them to upload lots of file. Just one.
I do find it hard to believe that the current method is difficult. It's as point and click as you can get. If your users find this hard, man wait till you tell them what a wiki is.
On 14 Apr 2005, at 19:15, greg whittier wrote:
In MoinMoin typing [attachment:my_file.pdf] creates a link that if clicked prompts the user to upload the file if it doesn't exist already.
I like this! it's the WikiWay -- link first, author second.
So the MediaWikiWay would be [[Image:ImageName.jpg|thumb|right|whatever blah blah blah]] which would show up as either an broken image icon, or a textual link to be clicked, which would cause an upload dialog.
:::: Nature must, in the not too distant future, institute bankruptcy proceedings against industrial civilization. -- William Catton :::: Jan Steinman http://www.Bytesmiths.com/Van
I agree with Greg and Jan, it would be great if you could link first and then upload. Since the exact name the file gets may be unknown a priori, perhaps just putting "[[Image:]]", then clicking on it to upload the file, then when the file is uploaded have the "[[Image:]]" link get pointed to it.
I have no idea how hard that would be to implement, of course.
--Ben
On 4/14/05, Jan Steinman Jan@bytesmiths.com wrote:
On 14 Apr 2005, at 19:15, greg whittier wrote:
In MoinMoin typing [attachment:my_file.pdf] creates a link that if clicked prompts the user to upload the file if it doesn't exist already.
I like this! it's the WikiWay -- link first, author second.
So the MediaWikiWay would be [[Image:ImageName.jpg|thumb|right|whatever blah blah blah]] which would show up as either an broken image icon, or a textual link to be clicked, which would cause an upload dialog.
:::: Nature must, in the not too distant future, institute bankruptcy proceedings against industrial civilization. -- William Catton :::: Jan Steinman http://www.Bytesmiths.com/Van
MediaWiki-l mailing list MediaWiki-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
On 4/15/05, Benjamin FrantzDale frantzdale3i@gmail.com wrote:
I agree with Greg and Jan, it would be great if you could link first and then upload. Since the exact name the file gets may be unknown a priori, perhaps just putting "[[Image:]]", then clicking on it to upload the file, then when the file is uploaded have the "[[Image:]]" link get pointed to it.
I think you've just hit the nail on the head as to why this *would* be difficult. Since (like many webforms) the upload system isn't coded to rename the upload (see http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1105) and because (as Brion points out) files are attached to the whole wiki, not one page, the name of the upload tends to be the last, rather than first, thing you know.
Letting the user type an empty tag and then filling it in for them would require the user to click the link, the software to "remember" which page to change when they get back (using a URL parameter, presumably), and then find the tag to change (presuming nobody's got rid of it in the meantime, or fixed it by hand) and make the change (marked, presumably, as made by the user who performed the upload). Seems like a lot of work to code, and still pretty confusing to the user, if you ask me - they have to remember the syntax for a non-existent image, and remember to save the article (click it in a preview, and the software won't be able to fill it in, and you'll just lose your changes, which might not be what you'd expect). But, y'know, I could be wrong.
Perhaps the best we could do is have the upload success screen have nice clear instructions with copy-and-pastable syntax, such as: * If this is an image, you can display it using "[[Image:Example.jpeg|Your caption here]]" * To link directly to this file, use "[[Media:example.jpeg|text of link here]]" * To link to the description page, use "[[:Image:Example.jpeg|text of link here]]" Only with "example.jpeg" being filled in with the actual filename. Coupled with a "return to..." link, that's pretty simple - you click "upload file", upload it, and get instructions on how to reference it in a page. (We could even have an extra "return to" link offering to *edit* the last page visitted, to cut out one further step)
On Apr 15, 2005, at 11:57am, Rowan Collins wrote:
Since (like many webforms) the upload system isn't coded to rename the upload (see http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1105)
This seems like a very desirable enhancement, although, I notice that it is labeled as a low priority.
John Blumel
Dori wrote:
On 4/14/05, greg whittier wrote:
Believe it or not, the current method has a high enough barrier to entry that few of my potential users will bother with it. Basically, I'm looking for a point and click (no typing or cut and pasting filenames) way to do this. I don't need them to upload lots of file. Just one.
I do find it hard to believe that the current method is difficult. It's as point and click as you can get. If your users find this hard, man wait till you tell them what a wiki is.
There are actually a few difficulties, which potentially could be improved:
* The info text is too long: no human will ever read it, and it obscures the functional controls. (This was the unfortunate result of being fed up with complaints about insufficient explanation of uploading policies on the page.)
* Some of the warnings are not really relevant. (It changed my spaces to underscores? Horror of horrors!)
* After a successful upload, it's unclear what to do. There's a blobby paragraph but no link back to the page you came from.
We've gotten a number of suggestions that after upload you should be able to easily return to the page you were on when you hit the upload link (similar to the login and logout operations). I think this might be a good idea at the least.
Potentially it could take you straight to the edit page and give you an opportunity to cut-n-paste the sample link. I'm less sure about that.
One thing that's maybe not obvious to people is that uploads in MediaWiki are *not* attachments to particular articles. They may be used in many pages, or in none, and they live existences independent of any page they may be linked from. This means the interface has to be different from adding an attachment to a webmail message, because it _is_ different, and this does complicate things.
Exactly how complicated they have to be is a matter for balance.
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
On Thu, Apr 14, 2005 at 07:15:43PM -0700, Brion Vibber wrote: # There are actually a few difficulties, which potentially could be improved:
Another thing that always confused me about the mediawiki upload process is that you're prompted to enter a description and then the "success" page's "blobby paragraph" includes an example that contains your filename, but not your description. That seems like an easy fix! Should I file a bug?
-Sam
Sam Rowe wrote:
Another thing that always confused me about the mediawiki upload process is that you're prompted to enter a description and then the "success" page's "blobby paragraph" includes an example that contains your filename, but not your description. That seems like an easy fix! Should I file a bug?
No, that doesn't make a lot of sense. You'd see stuff like this:
[[Image:SumatraMap.jpg|Map of [[Sumatra]], version as of 2005-04-11. Taken from http://foo.bar.baz/maps/asia/, marked as public domain. {{Public domain image}}
I modified the legend to make it more legible and remove the scanning errors, and did a threshold to reduce the number of colors for better compression.
TODO: Replace with cleaned-up SVG version.]]
The description is for the description page. It's *not* generally suitable for inline alternate text rendering for browsers that can't display images (which will always be context-dependent).
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
I don't think Sam is suggesting that the description be put in the example caption. I think he means instead of this: ------------------------------------------------------------------ Successful upload
File foo.png uploaded successfully. Please follow this link: Image:foo.png to the description page and fill in information about the file, such as where it came from, when it was created and by whom, and anything else you may know about it. If this is an image, you can insert it like this: [[Image:foo.png|thumb|Description]] ------------------------------------------------------------------
the success page could look more like this:
------------------------------------------------------------------ Successful upload
File foo.png uploaded successfully witht the following description:
My amazing picture of foo {{GFDL}}
To show it on a page, write: [[Image:foo.png|thumb|description]]
Or follow this link: Image:foo.png to the description page and fill in information about the file, such as where it came from, when it was created and by whom, and anything else you may know about it. ------------------------------------------------------------------
--Ben
On 4/15/05, Brion Vibber brion@pobox.com wrote:
Sam Rowe wrote:
Another thing that always confused me about the mediawiki upload process is that you're prompted to enter a description and then the "success" page's "blobby paragraph" includes an example that contains your filename, but not your description. That seems like an easy fix! Should I file a bug?
No, that doesn't make a lot of sense. You'd see stuff like this:
[[Image:SumatraMap.jpg|Map of [[Sumatra]], version as of 2005-04-11. Taken from http://foo.bar.baz/maps/asia/, marked as public domain. {{Public domain image}}
I modified the legend to make it more legible and remove the scanning errors, and did a threshold to reduce the number of colors for better compression.
TODO: Replace with cleaned-up SVG version.]]
The description is for the description page. It's *not* generally suitable for inline alternate text rendering for browsers that can't display images (which will always be context-dependent).
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
MediaWiki-l mailing list MediaWiki-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
On Fri, Apr 15, 2005 at 10:58:25AM -0700, Benjamin FrantzDale wrote:
I think Brion understood.. I'll modify your example:
# I don't think Sam is suggesting that the description be put in the # example caption. I think he means instead of this: # ------------------------------------------------------------------ # Successful upload # # File foo.png uploaded successfully. Please follow this link: # Image:foo.png to the description page and fill in information about # the file, such as where it came from, when it was created and by whom, # and anything else you may know about it. If this is an image, you can # insert it like this: [[Image:foo.png|thumb|Description]] # ------------------------------------------------------------------ # # the success page could look more like this: # # # ------------------------------------------------------------------
Successful upload
File foo.png uploaded successfully!
My amazing picture of foo {{GFDL}}
To show it on a page, write: [[Image:foo.png|thumb|A picture of Foo!]]
Or follow this link: Image:foo.png to the description page and fill in information about the file, such as where it came from, when it was created and by whom, and anything else you may know about it. ------------------------------------------------------------------
-Sam
On Fri, Apr 15, 2005 at 10:26:23AM -0700, Brion Vibber wrote: # Sam Rowe wrote: # >Another thing that always confused me about the mediawiki upload process is # >that you're prompted to enter a description and then the "success" page's # >"blobby paragraph" includes an example that contains your filename, but not # >your description. That seems like an easy fix! Should I file a bug? # # No, that doesn't make a lot of sense. You'd see stuff like this: # # [[Image:SumatraMap.jpg|Map of [[Sumatra]], version as of 2005-04-11. # Taken from http://foo.bar.baz/maps/asia/, marked as public domain. # {{Public domain image}} # # I modified the legend to make it more legible and remove the scanning # errors, and did a threshold to reduce the number of colors for better # compression. # # TODO: Replace with cleaned-up SVG version.]]
Aah, perhaps the Description field should be made into a textarea then? On my private wiki, I almost always use the same description when uploading as when marking up.
Sam Rowe wrote:
Aah, perhaps the Description field should be made into a textarea then?
It has been.
On my private wiki, I almost always use the same description when uploading as when marking up.
1.4.1 coming soon...
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
On 4/15/05, Brion Vibber brion@pobox.com wrote:
Sam Rowe wrote:
Aah, perhaps the Description field should be made into a textarea then?
It has been.
1.4.1 coming soon...
D'oh!
On 4/15/05, Sam Rowe mediawiki@samrowe.com wrote:
Aah, perhaps the Description field should be made into a textarea then? On my private wiki, I almost always use the same description when uploading as when marking up.
Erm, looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Upload (which I haven't for a while) it *is* a text area. Maybe you are using an out-of-date version of MediaWiki?
mediawiki-l@lists.wikimedia.org