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So, the way MediaWiki markup works now, something that looks like "=this=" gets rendered as "<h1>this</h1>", and something that looks like "==this==" gets rendered as "<h2>this</h2>", and so on with more equal signs making deeper HTML header tags.
The problem with this is that the stylesheets we have render <h1> tags really, really big. It seems like people try to avoid using one- or even two-equals headers, just because they render outrageously large.
This seems like a bad precedent to me. The equal signs, in my opinion, should be used more as *logical* section separators than for physical formatting. I think that the top level of sections in a page should use one equal sign -- always, without exception -- and subsections of those sections should use two equal signs, and so on and so forth.
My question is: how can we get the rendering right so "=this=" renders more neatly, and less obstructively, on a page? One quick-and-dirty solution is to just have the rendering code shift everything down one - -- "=this=" becomes "<h2>this</h2>", and "==this==" becomes "<h3>this</h3>", and so on and so forth.
The problem with that strategy, of course, is that you bottom out at five section levels, which I personally think is fine for pages at the granularity of Wikitravel (and Wikipedia, AFAICT). When someone uses two equal signs for a top-level section header, that's pretty much what they're doing, anyways.
The other possibility is changing the stylesheets to make h1, h2, h3, etc. tags somewhat smaller. This seems to be a little less flexible, wouldn't necessarily work with all browsers, and is harder to get right.
Suggestions, ideas, comments?
~ESP
- -- Evan Prodromou evan@wikitravel.org Wikitravel - http://www.wikitravel.org/ The free, complete, up-to-date and reliable world-wide travel guide
From: Evan Prodromou evan@wikitravel.org Organization: Evan Prodromou Reply-To: MediaWiki announcements and site admin list mediawiki-l@Wikimedia.org Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 14:49:18 -0500 To: MediaWiki announcements and site admin list mediawiki-l@Wikimedia.org Cc: Wikitravellers wikitravellers@wikitravel.org Subject: [Mediawiki-l] Headers
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So, the way MediaWiki markup works now, something that looks like "=this=" gets rendered as "<h1>this</h1>", and something that looks like "==this==" gets rendered as "<h2>this</h2>", and so on with more equal signs making deeper HTML header tags.
The problem with this is that the stylesheets we have render <h1> tags really, really big. It seems like people try to avoid using one- or even two-equals headers, just because they render outrageously large.
This seems like a bad precedent to me. The equal signs, in my opinion, should be used more as *logical* section separators than for physical formatting. I think that the top level of sections in a page should use one equal sign -- always, without exception -- and subsections of those sections should use two equal signs, and so on and so forth.
My question is: how can we get the rendering right so "=this=" renders more neatly, and less obstructively, on a page? One quick-and-dirty solution is to just have the rendering code shift everything down one
- -- "=this=" becomes "<h2>this</h2>", and "==this==" becomes
"<h3>this</h3>", and so on and so forth.
The problem with that strategy, of course, is that you bottom out at five section levels, which I personally think is fine for pages at the granularity of Wikitravel (and Wikipedia, AFAICT). When someone uses two equal signs for a top-level section header, that's pretty much what they're doing, anyways.
The other possibility is changing the stylesheets to make h1, h2, h3, etc. tags somewhat smaller. This seems to be a little less flexible, wouldn't necessarily work with all browsers, and is harder to get right.
Suggestions, ideas, comments?
By fiddling with the code one can make = h3 == h3 ==== h1 or any other combination of the two. So there is no problem once you decide to use smaller emphasis.
Fred
~ESP
Evan Prodromou evan@wikitravel.org Wikitravel - http://www.wikitravel.org/ The free, complete, up-to-date and reliable world-wide travel guide
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"FB" == Fred Bauder fredbaud@ctelco.net writes:
Me> This seems like a bad precedent to me. The equal signs, in my Me> opinion, should be used more as *logical* section separators Me> than for physical formatting. I think that the top level of Me> sections in a page should use one equal sign -- always, without Me> exception -- and subsections of those sections should use two Me> equal signs, and so on and so forth.
Me> [...]
Me> Suggestions, ideas, comments?
FB> By fiddling with the code one can make = h3 == h3 ==== h1 or FB> any other combination of the two. So there is no problem once FB> you decide to use smaller emphasis.
I'm not quite sure what code you're referring to: the markup for an individual article, or the MediaWiki rendering code?
If you mean the first: see my selected note above. If you mean the second: yes, I think that's the right answer.
~ESP
- -- Evan Prodromou evan@wikitravel.org Wikitravel - http://www.wikitravel.org/ The free, complete, up-to-date and reliable world-wide travel guide
"FB" == Fred Bauder fredbaud@ctelco.net writes:
Me> This seems like a bad precedent to me. The equal signs, in my Me> opinion, should be used more as *logical* section separators Me> than for physical formatting. I think that the top level of Me> sections in a page should use one equal sign -- always, without Me> exception -- and subsections of those sections should use two Me> equal signs, and so on and so forth.
Me> [...]
Me> Suggestions, ideas, comments?
FB> By fiddling with the code one can make = h3 == h3 ==== h1 or FB> any other combination of the two. So there is no problem once FB> you decide to use smaller emphasis.
I'm not quite sure what code you're referring to: the markup for an individual article, or the MediaWiki rendering code?
If you mean the first: see my selected note above. If you mean the second: yes, I think that's the right answer.
~ESP
the MediaWiki rendering code
On Nov 19, 2003, at 11:49, Evan Prodromou wrote:
So, the way MediaWiki markup works now, something that looks like "=this=" gets rendered as "<h1>this</h1>", and something that looks like "==this==" gets rendered as "<h2>this</h2>", and so on with more equal signs making deeper HTML header tags.
The problem with this is that the stylesheets we have render <h1> tags really, really big. It seems like people try to avoid using one- or even two-equals headers, just because they render outrageously large.
<h1> is supposed to be used for the page title only. You can stick one in manually (either as <h1> or as = foo =) but, just like putting headers in an incorrect stacking order, it will seriously confuse things such as the table of contents and header numbering for those that turn on that option.
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
"BV" == Brion Vibber brion@pobox.com writes:
BV> <h1> is supposed to be used for the page title only. You can BV> stick one in manually (either as <h1> or as = foo =) but, just BV> like putting headers in an incorrect stacking order, it will BV> seriously confuse things such as the table of contents and BV> header numbering for those that turn on that option.
So, I take it that you're saying that the top-level headers should always be ==like this==, with sub-headers smaller? And that having =this= render as great big <h1>'s is by design?
And that other code, like the TOC or the header numbering, expects top-level headers to be ==like this==?
I can totally live with that. I just don't like having top-level section headers be different for different pages, just to get the output correct.
~ESP
On Nov 19, 2003, at 17:43, Evan Prodromou wrote:
So, I take it that you're saying that the top-level headers should always be ==like this==, with sub-headers smaller? And that having =this= render as great big <h1>'s is by design?
The page title *is the* top-level heading. Within an article's text, == is the highest level you should be using.
And that other code, like the TOC or the header numbering, expects top-level headers to be ==like this==?
Page title -> <h1>Page title</h1> == Header == -> <h2>Header</h2> === Subheader === -> <h3>Subheader</h3> ==== Subsubheader ==== -> <h4>Subsubheader</h4> etc == Another header == -> <h2>Another header</h2>
If you skip levels, like this: == Header == ==== Oops, too many ====
etc, things get confused and cannot assign section levels correctly.
I can totally live with that. I just don't like having top-level section headers be different for different pages, just to get the output correct.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. On what sort of page would you do something different?
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
"BV" == Brion Vibber brion@pobox.com writes:
BV> The page title *is the* top-level heading. Within an article's BV> text, == is the highest level you should be using.
Sorry. I was talking about headings for sections of pages.
---8<--- This is Wiki ''markup''.
==Section 1==
===Section 1.1===
==Section 2==
===Section 2.1===
====Section 2.1.1====
---8<---
(Yes, I know the numbering can be done automatically. Just an example.)
I tend not to think of these things in terms of <h2>, <h3>, <h4> headers, but as structural delimiters in the article. A MediaWiki article renderer for PDF or DocBook wouldn't use <h2> for ==this==, it'd just make a section header.
>> I can totally live with that. I just don't like having >> top-level section headers be different for different pages, >> just to get the output correct.
BV> I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. On what sort of BV> page would you do something different?
The main problem is people doing this:
---8<--- This is Wiki ''markup''.
====Section 1====
====Section 2====
====Section 3====
---8<---
...because the rendering of <h4> tags "looks better".
On Wikitravel, we've been standardizing on using =this= (not <h1>, but one equal sign) for sections of an article, ==this== for sub-sections of an article, etc. But if the MediaWiki software expects ==this== for sections, ===this=== for sub-sections, etc., we might as well go with the flow. We've been making policy based on misapprehension.
~ESP
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