Does anyone know how MediaWiki submits its edits? I'm trying to troubleshoot my URL forwarding problem, and I can't figure it out. It seems to be dependent on the URL somehow, which is probably why there is a problem? I tried looking through the raw code, but I couldn't figure out where to even begin looking, if I knew which pages of the script were causing problems I could try fiddling with them...
Thanks!
kerim
P. Kerim friedman wrote:
Does anyone know how MediaWiki submits its edits? I'm trying to troubleshoot my URL forwarding problem, and I can't figure it out. It seems to be dependent on the URL somehow, which is probably why there is a problem? I tried looking through the raw code, but I couldn't figure out where to even begin looking, if I knew which pages of the script were causing problems I could try fiddling with them...
The crappy forwarding scheme is your problem: a form posting won't be transmitted from the parent frame.
You might be able to hack up the forms to use absolute URLs, but then you'll be using the real target URLs, which you say you don't want. I highly recommend you get rid of it and use an actual domain name; contact your service provider about this.
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
On Aug 4, 2004, at 2:50 AM, Brion Vibber wrote:
The crappy forwarding scheme is your problem
Every other software I've installed on my system:
Pagetool TikiWiki ActivePHPBookmarks Nucleus MovableType WordPress
Have ALL been able to handle this "crappy forwarding scheme" just fine. Media Wiki is the only one that hasn't. The forwarding system is actually quite robust, it is simply a frame, nothing else. It can handle metatags. The reason I use it is too complex to explain, but many people use such systems, whether because they share hosting with other people, use subdomains, wish to remain able to easily change hosts, etc. That is why all the above software have provisions to allow people to do just that.
But all I'm asking is for some help understanding WHY it isn't working. You've been very helpful so far, but obviously you don't wish to help any more. That's fine. But maybe someone else might know why the forms aren't working. Absolute URLs, with the proper domain will all work as if they were on the host domain. I like MediaWiki, and you have all been very helpful up to now. But now I seem to be getting a Micro$oft type of reply: if the software doesn't work the way you want, change how you do things. That isn't why I use open source software!
I'm not much of a programmer, so if hacking the forms is truly too complicated, I may just have to give up. But I'd like to give it a try.
Thanks again!
kerim
P. Kerim friedman wrote:
But now I seem to be getting a Micro$oft type of reply That isn't why I use open source software!
That is totally uncalled for. Open source software is not about getting free support. Its about giving you the code so you can change it to your hearts content. If you can't do that yourself, then either pay someone to do it for you or buy commercial software instead.
The people who devote hours and years of their time to provide you with free things work very hard for nothing, don't owe you anthing, and certainly don't need your bitching.
By looking at the list below you certainly take advantage of free software, I hope you give back.
Simon.
----- Original Message ----- From: "P. Kerim friedman" kerim.mail@oxus.net To: "MediaWiki announcements and site admin list" mediawiki-l@Wikimedia.org Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 10:36 PM Subject: Re: [Mediawiki-l] How does MediaWiki submit edits?
On Aug 4, 2004, at 2:50 AM, Brion Vibber wrote:
The crappy forwarding scheme is your problem
Every other software I've installed on my system:
Pagetool TikiWiki ActivePHPBookmarks Nucleus MovableType WordPress
Have ALL been able to handle this "crappy forwarding scheme" just fine. Media Wiki is the only one that hasn't. The forwarding system is actually quite robust, it is simply a frame, nothing else. It can handle metatags. The reason I use it is too complex to explain, but many people use such systems, whether because they share hosting with other people, use subdomains, wish to remain able to easily change hosts, etc. That is why all the above software have provisions to allow people to do just that.
But all I'm asking is for some help understanding WHY it isn't working. You've been very helpful so far, but obviously you don't wish to help any more. That's fine. But maybe someone else might know why the forms aren't working. Absolute URLs, with the proper domain will all work as if they were on the host domain. I like MediaWiki, and you have all been very helpful up to now. But now I seem to be getting a Micro$oft type of reply: if the software doesn't work the way you want, change how you do things. That isn't why I use open source software!
I'm not much of a programmer, so if hacking the forms is truly too complicated, I may just have to give up. But I'd like to give it a try.
Thanks again!
kerim
MediaWiki-l mailing list MediaWiki-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
I'm not going to get into a tit for tat. If you've read this thread you will see that I've both offered lots of help to newbies (other than just telling them to read the wiki), and I've thanked people for the help I received. I also solved some problems that other people offered partial solutions to, and I explained why the full solution worked better than the partial solution. I was just asking for someone to point me the direction as to where to get started: i.e. where to look in the code. Instead, I was told that I was in the wrong for asking such a question. This is not the kind of attitude I came to this forum with, and it is isn't the kind of attitude I expect from others.
Go ahead and defend your friends, but don't do so out of context.
kerim
On Aug 4, 2004, at 9:18 AM, Shimmie wrote:
P. Kerim friedman wrote:
But now I seem to be getting a Micro$oft type of reply That isn't why I use open source software!
That is totally uncalled for. Open source software is not about getting free support. Its about giving you the code so you can change it to your hearts content. If you can't do that yourself, then either pay someone to do it for you or buy commercial software instead.
The people who devote hours and years of their time to provide you with free things work very hard for nothing, don't owe you anthing, and certainly don't need your bitching.
By looking at the list below you certainly take advantage of free software, I hope you give back.
Simon.
----- Original Message ----- From: "P. Kerim friedman" kerim.mail@oxus.net To: "MediaWiki announcements and site admin list" mediawiki-l@Wikimedia.org Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 10:36 PM Subject: Re: [Mediawiki-l] How does MediaWiki submit edits?
On Aug 4, 2004, at 2:50 AM, Brion Vibber wrote:
The crappy forwarding scheme is your problem
Every other software I've installed on my system:
Pagetool TikiWiki ActivePHPBookmarks Nucleus MovableType WordPress
Have ALL been able to handle this "crappy forwarding scheme" just fine. Media Wiki is the only one that hasn't. The forwarding system is actually quite robust, it is simply a frame, nothing else. It can handle metatags. The reason I use it is too complex to explain, but many people use such systems, whether because they share hosting with other people, use subdomains, wish to remain able to easily change hosts, etc. That is why all the above software have provisions to allow people to do just that.
But all I'm asking is for some help understanding WHY it isn't working. You've been very helpful so far, but obviously you don't wish to help any more. That's fine. But maybe someone else might know why the forms aren't working. Absolute URLs, with the proper domain will all work as if they were on the host domain. I like MediaWiki, and you have all been very helpful up to now. But now I seem to be getting a Micro$oft type of reply: if the software doesn't work the way you want, change how you do things. That isn't why I use open source software!
I'm not much of a programmer, so if hacking the forms is truly too complicated, I may just have to give up. But I'd like to give it a try.
Thanks again!
kerim
MediaWiki-l mailing list MediaWiki-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
MediaWiki-l mailing list MediaWiki-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
By looking at the list below you certainly take advantage of free software, I hope you give back.
Simon.
Funny enough one of the purposes of my wiki is to serve as a bridge between techie-forums like this and tech-phobic social science academics who don't understand these things, encouraging more people to use open source software, as well as providing some basic How-Tos that are easier to understand than the official documentation. You may not consider that "giving back" since I'm not writing actual code. But that is my idea of giving back. I'm currently writing an article for Anthropology News which encourages people to use MediaWiki. I've negotiated with the publishers to allow me to publish a version of the article as a wiki on my own site (although they won't let me use the Creative Commons license on my site). Now, the domain I use is shared with other people, and we use different servers for e-mail and hosting. That means I have another domain for hosting, and I use EasyDNS to forward my domain to my host. I'd prefer to keep all the links within my homepage, blog, and wiki under the same domain name if possible, and the ability to specify the root URL in MediaWiki forms would allow me to do so. If nobody knows how to do that, that's fine, I'll have to settle for the second-best solution. But please don't tell me I shouldn't try to do this. Other OS software projects I've used have been very encouraging of getting everyone to learn and understand the code and how it works, in the view that while this might seem like "giving away support for free" in the short-run, in the long run it will create a stronger community and stronger code.
kerim
P. Kerim friedman wrote:
Have ALL been able to handle this "crappy forwarding scheme" just fine. Media Wiki is the only one that hasn't. The forwarding system is actually quite robust, it is simply a frame, nothing else.
Right, that's what I'm trying to explain.
Data that's submitted as a POST form can't make it through from the parent frame to the child frame, as HTML doesn't allow anything like that.
This means that the <form> needs to have an action URL which specifies the *real* page, not the forwarded (false) page. Since you're insisting on using the forwarded (false) URLs everywhere, that means you have to hack all the forms that do POSTs to be an explicit exception.
It would be a lot easier for you if you didn't need to pull this frame trick (which will be very inconvenient for visitors using text-based browsers, screen readers, and others in which it introduces an extra navigational barrier on every single page). If you contact your hosting provider, I'm sure they will be happy to set up the alternate domain as an alias if it's necessary (ie, if they're using name-based virtual servers).
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
Brion,
Thanks. This is a start.
Unfortunately, as my domain is managed by a different company than my host (which is the cause of these problems) I can't implement your easier alternative solution.
However, I now have some more specific questions based on your last post:
On Aug 4, 2004, at 2:29 PM, Brion Vibber wrote:
Data that's submitted as a POST form can't make it through from the parent frame to the child frame, as HTML doesn't allow anything like that.
But don't these other programs use POST to send data? For instance, in pagetool I found this command:
echo "<form action="" . $admp . "&pt_action=update&pt_section=www&id=" . $row["www_id"] . "" enctype="multipart/form-data" method="post">\n";
I'm trying to understand why this works with the EasyDNS URL forwarding, and POST in MediaWiki does not. Here is the relevant code from Editpage.php in MediaWiki:
<form id="editform" name="editform" method="post" action="$action" enctype="application/x-www-form-urlencoded">
This means that the <form> needs to have an action URL which specifies the *real* page, not the forwarded (false) page. Since you're insisting on using the forwarded (false) URLs everywhere, that means you have to hack all the forms that do POSTs to be an explicit exception.
I was looking at some of the POST tags in the code, and it seems that many of them rely upon code in Title.php for their URLs. That file has a bunch of functions, such as "getFullURL", "escapeLocalURL", "getEditURL" etc. which seem to be called upon in some of the POST commands. Might it not be possible to edit some of these functions? They seem to call upon $wgserver, but setting that didn't have any affect for me either way.
Cheers,
kkerim
On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, P. Kerim friedman wrote:
Unfortunately, as my domain is managed by a different company than my host (which is the cause of these problems) I can't implement your easier alternative solution.
They don't have to be the same, as they are separate services. DNS controls the mapping of hostnames ('foobar.com') to IP addresses ('12.34.56.78').
Hosting puts an actual computer at the network IP address ('12.34.56.78') which responds to external requests, such as HTTP requests for web pages. If multiple sites are served from a single network address ('12.34.56.78'), it is necessary also for the host to be aware which hostnames ('foobar.com', 'superfoo.net') are in use so requests are directed to the right configuration.
It is not necessary for the host to control the mapping of hostnames ('foobar.com') to IP addresses ('12.34.56.78'), only to be aware of them, and then only for that particular configuration case (name-based virtual servers sharing an IP address).
I apologize if the above sounds patronizing or condescending; I'm really just trying to make things clear.
On Aug 4, 2004, at 2:29 PM, Brion Vibber wrote:
Data that's submitted as a POST form can't make it through from the parent frame to the child frame, as HTML doesn't allow anything like that.
But don't these other programs use POST to send data? For instance, in pagetool I found this command:
echo "<form action="" . $admp . "&pt_action=update&pt_section=www&id=" . $row["www_id"] . "" enctype="multipart/form-data" method="post">\n";
Could you take a look at the actual produced HTML to see what the listed URL is? Is it a full URL including the real hostname, a full URL including the false forwarded hostname or a relative URL?
If it's a relative URL and there is no <base href> or it's a full URL with the real hostname, then it's expected that it will work -- it will go directly to the real script without disturbing the frameset. If it's a full URL with the false hostname or a relative url with a <base href> for the false hostname then I would be surprised if it works.
I'm trying to understand why this works with the EasyDNS URL forwarding, and POST in MediaWiki does not. Here is the relevant code from Editpage.php in MediaWiki:
<form id=\"editform\" name=\"editform\" method=\"post\" action=\"$action\" enctype=\"application/x-www-form-urlencoded\">
The relative hostname is altered by the browser using the <base href> to the false forwarded hostname, thus the post fails.
I was looking at some of the POST tags in the code, and it seems that many of them rely upon code in Title.php for their URLs. That file has a bunch of functions, such as "getFullURL", "escapeLocalURL", "getEditURL" etc. which seem to be called upon in some of the POST commands. Might it not be possible to edit some of these functions?
Yes, as I mentioned earlier you can go through and change these functions and it might work. However I expect you'll have a hard time getting the consistent results you seem to want with a frame-forwarding system.
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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