Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 15:23:17 +0100 From: "Gary Kirk" gary.kirk@gmail.com Subject: Re: Is MediaWiki-l dysfunctional? What is it good for, really?
Peter Blaise wrote: "...A page will appear that tells you that the wiki is not set up, and that you need to do that first. Click the appropriate link and then fill in form. The rest is done automatically..." ... and that is all it says! Which we find a tad bit, um, unguiding...
Well, once you've entered your wiki and database details, the rest *is* done automatically; what's the problem?
Gary Kirk
Thanks, Gary.
"Fill in the form and those "database details" are an undocumented, unexampled, very deep mystery for newbies (and oldies alike), provided they can even get to that point - usually we get lost long before that and we don't have any troubleshooting checklist to find out what went wrong, especially if we don't get an error message, but just get either no response or a blank screen ... or worse, we do everything as mentioned without any failure notices, but nothing works!
Where do we go next?
Here?
Well, I'm HERE!
I appreciate that you don't get it.
May I suggest that try documenting and share your own MediaWiki installation steps, detail by detail, and why you made any choices?
Please actually try to document every single exact on-screen prompt and response (I've found that Apache "default" has more than half a dozen install screen choices alone, and Apache "custom" install offers a dozen-and-a-half screens plus at least 5 changeable areas - Apache HTTP Server, Apache Runtime, Build Headers and Libraries, APR Iconv Code Pages, and Apache Documentation - and produces 1,140 files IF all goes well, and PHP has 144 installation screen decisions to make after which I got 14 errors and a no way to confirm that PHP was actually installed successfully and supportive of anything, and MySQL and MediaWiki and PHPMyAdmin each have dozens more challenges where the uninitiated can get lost).
And also document the exact responses an installer must decide on at each screen, and also explore the determinants of why an installer would make one choice or another.
And include installation exception handling and error recovery.
And once any installation completes, include how to confirm that the installation was successful, that it is then appropriate to move on the next steps knowing that all previous steps are properly in place.
Whew.
Oh, and that "...the wiki is not set up, and that you need to do that first. Click the appropriate link and then fill in form..." has 25 choices the inexperienced novice newbie has to guess about with scant little explanation (and no examples), then later wonder if something doesn't work, was it their choices that went wrong ... or what?
Let's just all admit that a:
"...contemporaneous, complete, accurate, *linking steps and confirmation checks* for [installing] the entire suite of OS/WS/DB/PI/WP/E&E..."
...ain't out there, and it's up to Peter Blaise to do it if he wants one (unless someone beats me to it?).
I understand the challenge. I once documented a 70-second task setting up a new user on a network and on their private workstation, and it took 2 hours to accurately document very screen, menu choice, and proper answer, handle exceptions and so on, and test it so a novice could follow the steps and do it from there.
I appreciate many people think it totally unnecessary, or too hard, a waste of time ... and that a brief cheat sheet is enough for them.
Fine.
Anybody else?
- Peter Blaise
I might be speaking out of turn, but seems to me (and I'm no expert, certainly,) that questions on installing/configuring Apache, PHP and mySQL should be directed to the appropriate list. This list's focus is MediaWiki, not Apache, nor PHP, nor mySQL.
So this list is good for MediaWiki. Apache? PHP, mySQL? Not so much.
My .002 (sic) cents worth.
jel
I wonder how so many others manage it then...
On 24/05/07, Monahon, Peter B. Peter.Monahon@uspto.gov wrote:
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 15:23:17 +0100 From: "Gary Kirk" gary.kirk@gmail.com Subject: Re: Is MediaWiki-l dysfunctional? What is it good for, really?
Peter Blaise wrote: "...A page will appear that tells you that the wiki is not set up, and that you need to do that first. Click the appropriate link and then fill in form. The rest is done automatically..." ... and that is all it says! Which we find a tad bit, um, unguiding...
Well, once you've entered your wiki and database details, the rest *is* done automatically; what's the problem?
Gary Kirk
Thanks, Gary.
"Fill in the form and those "database details" are an undocumented, unexampled, very deep mystery for newbies (and oldies alike), provided they can even get to that point - usually we get lost long before that and we don't have any troubleshooting checklist to find out what went wrong, especially if we don't get an error message, but just get either no response or a blank screen ... or worse, we do everything as mentioned without any failure notices, but nothing works!
Where do we go next?
Here?
Well, I'm HERE!
I appreciate that you don't get it.
May I suggest that try documenting and share your own MediaWiki installation steps, detail by detail, and why you made any choices?
Please actually try to document every single exact on-screen prompt and response (I've found that Apache "default" has more than half a dozen install screen choices alone, and Apache "custom" install offers a dozen-and-a-half screens plus at least 5 changeable areas - Apache HTTP Server, Apache Runtime, Build Headers and Libraries, APR Iconv Code Pages, and Apache Documentation - and produces 1,140 files IF all goes well, and PHP has 144 installation screen decisions to make after which I got 14 errors and a no way to confirm that PHP was actually installed successfully and supportive of anything, and MySQL and MediaWiki and PHPMyAdmin each have dozens more challenges where the uninitiated can get lost).
And also document the exact responses an installer must decide on at each screen, and also explore the determinants of why an installer would make one choice or another.
And include installation exception handling and error recovery.
And once any installation completes, include how to confirm that the installation was successful, that it is then appropriate to move on the next steps knowing that all previous steps are properly in place.
Whew.
I'm sure you may suggest that, and equally sure I will ignore you *on that point*.
Oh, and that "...the wiki is not set up, and that you need to do that first. Click the appropriate link and then fill in form..." has 25 choices the inexperienced novice newbie has to guess about with scant little explanation (and no examples), then later wonder if something doesn't work, was it their choices that went wrong ... or what?
Let's just all admit that a:
"...contemporaneous, complete, accurate, *linking steps and confirmation checks* for [installing] the entire suite of OS/WS/DB/PI/WP/E&E..."
...ain't out there, and it's up to Peter Blaise to do it if he wants one (unless someone beats me to it?).
I understand the challenge. I once documented a 70-second task setting up a new user on a network and on their private workstation, and it took 2 hours to accurately document very screen, menu choice, and proper answer, handle exceptions and so on, and test it so a novice could follow the steps and do it from there.
I appreciate many people think it totally unnecessary, or too hard, a waste of time ... and that a brief cheat sheet is enough for them.
Fine.
Anybody else?
- Peter Blaise
MediaWiki-l mailing list MediaWiki-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
... That's why I use shared Linux hosting. You really shouldn't be trying to set this all up on your own; if you can't do it, the standard kiddie-friendly Microsoft message "Please see your system administrator" applies.
In all this, I for one am confused. What actually is your problem? What are you trying to do, that you cannot?
Good Morning MediaWiki Fans:
Are there any new options to the action=render operation: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Parameters_to_index.php to help avoid *all* the "toolbox" links in a rendered page ? I'm finding that fetching a page via action=render still leaves in the "[edit]" sections with URL references back to the wiki. (maybe others too ? I'm just testing a simple page that has a section) I'd like to avoid even those bits of code too, I don't want any URL references back to the Wiki. Perhaps in a newer version ? I'm on version 1.8.2.
Or some combination of action=raw with other parameters ?
Thanks for your assistance,
--Hiram
It sounds like what you might want is the printable version of the page. This can be accessed by keeping action=view (the default), but adding printable=yes as well.
-- Jim R. Wilson (jimbojw)
On 5/24/07, Hiram Clawson hiram@soe.ucsc.edu wrote:
Good Morning MediaWiki Fans:
Are there any new options to the action=render operation: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Parameters_to_index.php to help avoid *all* the "toolbox" links in a rendered page ? I'm finding that fetching a page via action=render still leaves in the "[edit]" sections with URL references back to the wiki. (maybe others too ? I'm just testing a simple page that has a section) I'd like to avoid even those bits of code too, I don't want any URL references back to the Wiki. Perhaps in a newer version ? I'm on version 1.8.2.
Or some combination of action=raw with other parameters ?
Thanks for your assistance,
--Hiram
MediaWiki-l mailing list MediaWiki-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
Monahon, Peter B:
"Fill in the form and those "database details" are an undocumented, unexampled, very deep mystery for newbies (and oldies alike),
Please speak for yourself. I'm looking at that form right now, and I can't see anything particularly mysterious there. In the database section, all it wants is the database server name (usually "localhost", which is already filled in), and the user names / passwords for the wiki user and superuser. All of this is adequately explained in the form and the MediaWiki web site, and shouldn't be a problem to anyone with system administration skills.
If you don't have those skills, then setting up and managing a wiki is going to be very difficult. Setting up a Wiki is a system administration task -- this isn't some simple application like a web browser, it's a server, and has quite a complex set of supporting components (as you've discovered). There are also some serious security issued that need to be handled carefully if this is going to be exposed to the public.
The bottom line is that setting up something like this requires someone with system administration skills and experience. If that isn't you, then you need to pass the job to someone who has those skills.
Likewise, you're going to need system administration rights on the server -- without that, the job is at least going to be much harder, maybe impossible. The fact that you have repeatedly asked for help with setting up a wiki on a Windows host where you have no admin rights, and that you haven't got an answer, is your clue that no-one else has experience with doing it this way -- so you're on your own. Good luck! But if you want my advice, don't even bother -- doing something like this without admin rights is pretty absurd. Get admin rights, or pass the job to someone who has those rights, or tell your boss that you're wasting your time.
May I suggest that try documenting and share your own MediaWiki installation steps, detail by detail, and why you made any choices? Please actually try to document every single exact on-screen prompt
and
response ...
That would be pretty pointless, unless you want to install your wiki on *my* computer, and using exactly the same configuration that I use. The point is that you have to use the documentation on the MW site to *figure out* what the appropriate settings are for your wiki on your server. If you can't, well, that's what I was saying about "system administration skills and experience".
A troubleshooting guide isn't going to help you either. The number of things that could go wrong, considering the number of possible configurations of your server, and that you're doing weird things like installing without admin rights, means that the number of possible installation exceptions and errors is extremely large. You aren't going to find any shrink-wrapped guide to handling all those situations; you need someone with system administration skills and experience to figure them out.
... Apache "custom" install offers a dozen-and-a-half screens plus at least 5 changeable areas ...
It baffles me that you're having all this trouble, and then making it more complex by trying a custom install...?
Let's just all admit that a:
"...contemporaneous, complete, accurate, *linking steps and
confirmation
checks* for [installing] the entire suite of OS/WS/DB/PI/WP/E&E..."
...ain't out there, and it's up to Peter Blaise to do it if he wants
one
(unless someone beats me to it?).
Go for it. But I suspect that the type of guide you're describing isn't as useful to a wide audience as you might think. It sounds like the kind of thing you would write for people managing *your* wiki on your server.
Ian
mediawiki-l@lists.wikimedia.org