Does anyone here work with multilanguage Wiki content? Are there any extensions that ease the pain of translating Wiki articles?
On the OpenOffice.org Wiki we have a lot of languages in use. Various community members pop in, see a favorite page they want in their language, and they start translating. Unfortunately a lot of these well intentioned translations are done directly in/over the original content.
I'm trying to find a way to make this... ummm.. easier. Say for example an extension that adds a "Translate this page" link next to the "Edit" link, and then presents the user with a selectable list of predefined languages. Pick a language, and a new page is started with the right article naming (something we can do on the OOoWiki due to article naming styles we use) and copies the original text into the new page edit box ready to be edited/translated.
OK, that might just be a dream extension, but... maybe something that allows side by side views of articles while translating... or...
I've been poking around looking for info on how people manage this on other Wikis, but haven't really turned up any useful info yet... does someone here have any suggestions?
C.
Have a look at the Translate extension. We are doing tests at the moment with the Freenode #kde-www community for similar things.
You may want to join Freenode's #mediawiki-i18n and look for me or Nikerabbit.
A production setup can be found at http://translatewiki.net/wiki/Translating:How_to_start
Siebrand
-----Original Message----- From: mediawiki-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:mediawiki-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of ccornell - OpenOffice.org Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 4:00 PM To: mediawiki-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Mediawiki-l] Translating wiki articles
Does anyone here work with multilanguage Wiki content? Are there any extensions that ease the pain of translating Wiki articles?
Hmmm.
The Translate extension seems to be made for translating the interfaces of software projects. It doesn't seem to be set up to translate documents or wiki content.
Are you SURE that the translate extension is what cornell is asking for?
IMO, translating an interface for a program is childs play in comparison to translating the content of wiki pages or, in the worst case, poetry.
If you aren't willing or can't pay to hire real translators to translate content, I suggest using Google's translate toolbox (http://translate.google.com/ and choose "Translator Toolkit" on the left side - register)
I've also had some success using the ProofreadPage and DoubleWiki extensions, which allow side-by-side display of a wiki page with an image of a page.
Perhaps translatewiki and the translate extension somehow provide this fuctionality. But I can't see it there, and what I do see looks like it would be quite frustrating for anyone NOT translating a user interface.
Kent
At 4:09 PM +0100 11/17/09, "Siebrand Mazeland" s.mazeland@xs4all.nl wrote:
Have a look at the Translate extension. We are doing tests at the moment with the Freenode #kde-www community for similar things.
You may want to join Freenode's #mediawiki-i18n and look for me or Nikerabbit.
A production setup can be found at http://translatewiki.net/wiki/Translating:How_to_start
Siebrand
-----Original Message----- From: mediawiki-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:mediawiki-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of ccornell - OpenOffice.org Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 4:00 PM To: mediawiki-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Mediawiki-l] Translating wiki articles
Does anyone here work with multilanguage Wiki content? Are there any extensions that ease the pain of translating Wiki articles?
MediaWiki-l mailing list MediaWiki-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
Yes, I am sure - translatewiki.net also uses it for the purpose of translating wiki pages.
Counter question: have you checked out the sample URL I put in my post? Please do so if you have not yet.
A production setup can be found at http://translatewiki.net/wiki/Translating:How_to_start
Siebrand
-----Original Message----- From: mediawiki-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:mediawiki-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Kent S. Larsen II Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 1:33 AM To: MediaWiki announcements and site admin list Subject: Re: [Mediawiki-l] Translating wiki articles
Hmmm.
The Translate extension seems to be made for translating the interfaces of software projects. It doesn't seem to be set up to translate documents or wiki content.
Are you SURE that the translate extension is what cornell is asking for?
Yes, I checked out the link.
As far as I can tell, in order to set up a page to be translated, you have to not only set it up as a project, but break the parts of the page into individual translateable chunks.
The whole thing seems extremely cumbersome and inconvenient -- it really is set up to be used for translating a software interface and not actual documents.
As far as I can tell, translatewiki.net currently doesn't have ANY documents or webpage projects, only software interfaces.
If I'm wrong about this, then the documentation needs to be re-written to make it clear how to use it.
Kent
At 7:53 AM +0100 11/18/09, Siebrand Mazeland wrote:
Yes, I am sure - translatewiki.net also uses it for the purpose of translating wiki pages.
Counter question: have you checked out the sample URL I put in my post? Please do so if you have not yet.
A production setup can be found at http://translatewiki.net/wiki/Translating:How_to_start
Siebrand
-----Original Message----- From: mediawiki-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:mediawiki-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Kent S. Larsen II Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 1:33 AM To: MediaWiki announcements and site admin list Subject: Re: [Mediawiki-l] Translating wiki articles
Hmmm.
The Translate extension seems to be made for translating the interfaces of software projects. It doesn't seem to be set up to translate documents or wiki content.
Are you SURE that the translate extension is what cornell is asking for?
MediaWiki-l mailing list MediaWiki-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
Right. So I'll give it one last shot before you go try and create your own extension in the next two years. It appears to me like you are thinking in problems instead of opportunities.
Let me translate some of the remarks you made, and provide some more information:
(1) 'to set up a page to be translated, you have to not only set it up as a project, but break the parts of the page into individual translateable chunks': Opportunity speak: Wow. This is flexible. You can choose to put translate tags around the whole page content, where a parser will break it up for you, but it is also possible to keep the awkward formatting away from translators, and selectively keep out that formatting from the translatable content. Would there be any chance that this can be done automatically? My reply: sure. We are a little short on developers, but we are certainly prepared to help you further develop on the Translate extension if you are interested and able to.
(2) 'whole thing seems extremely cumbersome and inconvenient': Opportunity speak: I don't understand fully how to do this. At first glance it looks hard. Can you provide some additional information? My reply: sure. We'd be glad to help you. Please join us on Freenode's #mediawiki-i18n and we will see if we can get any misunderstandings out of the way.
(3) 'translatewiki.net currently doesn't have ANY documents or webpage projects, only software interfaces': Opportunity speak: I cannot find which content pages are available for translation at the moment. Do you have some links? My reply: sure. See http://translatewiki.net/wiki/Special:PageTranslation
(4) 'the documentation needs to be re-written to make it clear how to use it'. Opportunity speak: I cannot find the documentation. Where can I find it? My reply: Ouch. You got us there. Having the little development resources that we have, we have always invested in adding and improving functionality, and documentation is outdated at best. On mediawiki.org it is not present. We would appeaciate help in that area. Also see (2).
Cheers!
Siebrand Mazeland
-----Original Message----- From: mediawiki-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:mediawiki-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Kent S. Larsen II Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 4:22 AM To: MediaWiki announcements and site admin list Subject: Re: [Mediawiki-l] Translating wiki articles
Yes, I checked out the link.
As far as I can tell, in order to set up a page to be translated, you have to not only set it up as a project, but break the parts of the page into individual translateable chunks.
The whole thing seems extremely cumbersome and inconvenient -- it really is set up to be used for translating a software interface and not actual documents.
As far as I can tell, translatewiki.net currently doesn't have ANY documents or webpage projects, only software interfaces.
If I'm wrong about this, then the documentation needs to be re-written to make it clear how to use it.
Kent
Hmmm.
I think you are taking this quite defensively.
My principle observation is simply that currently this extension is NOT set up to make it easy for translating anything but interfaces. It doesn't seem to have anything that helps explain how it would work otherwise, and there are NO examples of translating anything that isn't an interface.
A large part of the problem here is that the translation needs of someone like me are quite different from the translation needs of someone who is translating an interface.
My only reason for commenting is that you seem to be pushing a solution that isn't adequate to the job described -- you seem to believe that a system set up for translating interfaces should be adequate for translating documents -- and you haven't explained how it IS adequate. Come back to me when you have the explanation on the web somewhere and have an example so that I can see how it works.
I'm not really looking for a solution at this point, so yes, I only see problems. What I do use on my wiki (combination of proofread page and doublewiki extensions) and elsewhere (Google translation toolbox) is adequate, but not ideal. Until I see something that is better, and, ideally, involves the input from someone who actually does the translation of documents (or better for me, whole books), I can't see a reason to waste much time looking through something that is only presented as a solution or "opportunity" for those who have completely different needs than I have.
Kent
At 8:12 AM +0100 11/20/09, you wrote:
Right. So I'll give it one last shot before you go try and create your own extension in the next two years. It appears to me like you are thinking in problems instead of opportunities.
Let me translate some of the remarks you made, and provide some more information:
(1) 'to set up a page to be translated, you have to not only set it up as a project, but break the parts of the page into individual translateable chunks': Opportunity speak: Wow. This is flexible. You can choose to put translate tags around the whole page content, where a parser will break it up for you, but it is also possible to keep the awkward formatting away from translators, and selectively keep out that formatting from the translatable content. Would there be any chance that this can be done automatically? My reply: sure. We are a little short on developers, but we are certainly prepared to help you further develop on the Translate extension if you are interested and able to.
(2) 'whole thing seems extremely cumbersome and inconvenient': Opportunity speak: I don't understand fully how to do this. At first glance it looks hard. Can you provide some additional information? My reply: sure. We'd be glad to help you. Please join us on Freenode's #mediawiki-i18n and we will see if we can get any misunderstandings out of the way.
(3) 'translatewiki.net currently doesn't have ANY documents or webpage projects, only software interfaces': Opportunity speak: I cannot find which content pages are available for translation at the moment. Do you have some links? My reply: sure. See http://translatewiki.net/wiki/Special:PageTranslation
(4) 'the documentation needs to be re-written to make it clear how to use it'. Opportunity speak: I cannot find the documentation. Where can I find it? My reply: Ouch. You got us there. Having the little development resources that we have, we have always invested in adding and improving functionality, and documentation is outdated at best. On mediawiki.org it is not present. We would appeaciate help in that area. Also see (2).
Cheers!
Siebrand Mazeland
-----Original Message----- From: mediawiki-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:mediawiki-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Kent S. Larsen II Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 4:22 AM To: MediaWiki announcements and site admin list Subject: Re: [Mediawiki-l] Translating wiki articles
Yes, I checked out the link.
As far as I can tell, in order to set up a page to be translated, you have to not only set it up as a project, but break the parts of the page into individual translateable chunks.
The whole thing seems extremely cumbersome and inconvenient -- it really is set up to be used for translating a software interface and not actual documents.
As far as I can tell, translatewiki.net currently doesn't have ANY documents or webpage projects, only software interfaces.
If I'm wrong about this, then the documentation needs to be re-written to make it clear how to use it.
Kent
MediaWiki-l mailing list MediaWiki-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
On Saturday 21 November 2009 18:59:06 Kent S. Larsen II wrote:
Hmmm.
I think you are taking this quite defensively.
My principle observation is simply that currently this extension is NOT set up to make it easy for translating anything but interfaces. It doesn't seem to have anything that helps explain how it would work otherwise, and there are NO examples of translating anything that isn't an interface.
A large part of the problem here is that the translation needs of someone like me are quite different from the translation needs of someone who is translating an interface.
My only reason for commenting is that you seem to be pushing a solution that isn't adequate to the job described -- you seem to believe that a system set up for translating interfaces should be adequate for translating documents -- and you haven't explained how it IS adequate. Come back to me when you have the explanation on the web somewhere and have an example so that I can see how it works.
I'm not really looking for a solution at this point, so yes, I only see problems. What I do use on my wiki (combination of proofread page and doublewiki extensions) and elsewhere (Google translation toolbox) is adequate, but not ideal. Until I see something that is better, and, ideally, involves the input from someone who actually does the translation of documents (or better for me, whole books), I can't see a reason to waste much time looking through something that is only presented as a solution or "opportunity" for those who have completely different needs than I have.
Kent
At 8:12 AM +0100 11/20/09, you wrote:
Right. So I'll give it one last shot before you go try and create your own extension in the next two years. It appears to me like you are thinking in problems instead of opportunities.
Let me translate some of the remarks you made, and provide some more information:
(1) 'to set up a page to be translated, you have to not only set it up as a project, but break the parts of the page into individual translateable chunks': Opportunity speak: Wow. This is flexible. You can choose to put translate tags around the whole page content, where a parser will break it up for you, but it is also possible to keep the awkward formatting away from translators, and selectively keep out that formatting from the translatable content. Would there be any chance that this can be done automatically? My reply: sure. We are a little short on developers, but we are certainly prepared to help you further develop on the Translate extension if you are interested and able to.
(2) 'whole thing seems extremely cumbersome and inconvenient': Opportunity speak: I don't understand fully how to do this. At first glance it looks hard. Can you provide some additional information? My reply: sure. We'd be glad to help you. Please join us on Freenode's #mediawiki-i18n and we will see if we can get any misunderstandings out of the way.
(3) 'translatewiki.net currently doesn't have ANY documents or webpage projects, only software interfaces': Opportunity speak: I cannot find which content pages are available for translation at the moment. Do you have some links? My reply: sure. See http://translatewiki.net/wiki/Special:PageTranslation
(4) 'the documentation needs to be re-written to make it clear how to use it'. Opportunity speak: I cannot find the documentation. Where can I find it? My reply: Ouch. You got us there. Having the little development resources that we have, we have always invested in adding and improving functionality, and documentation is outdated at best. On mediawiki.org it is not present. We would appeaciate help in that area. Also see (2).
Cheers!
Siebrand Mazeland
-----Original Message----- From: mediawiki-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:mediawiki-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Kent S. Larsen II Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 4:22 AM To: MediaWiki announcements and site admin list Subject: Re: [Mediawiki-l] Translating wiki articles
Yes, I checked out the link.
As far as I can tell, in order to set up a page to be translated, you have to not only set it up as a project, but break the parts of the page into individual translateable chunks.
The whole thing seems extremely cumbersome and inconvenient -- it really is set up to be used for translating a software interface and not actual documents.
As far as I can tell, translatewiki.net currently doesn't have ANY documents or webpage projects, only software interfaces.
If I'm wrong about this, then the documentation needs to be re-written to make it clear how to use it.
That is probably correct - it's hard to keep documentation up to date. However -
As I said at the beginning of this thread, we are testing this extension on a sandbox wiki. We have involved a few translators from different backgrounds. With the minimum of instruction they have played with a sample page or two. There has been some feedback - things that they would like changing, but I'm told that nothing they have said is difficult to set up (I am not a php person, I have to leave that part to others).
I cannot understand why you think that the extension doesn't work with wiki pages. And for those with other translation needs, exporting a .po file seems to be very useful to them.
Perhaps you need to explain exactly what it is that you want, that the extension can't do. If you have misunderstood, then someone will be able to help you. If it really can't do it, then it will be possible to discuss whether it should be able to, or whether that's a different problem.
Anne
At 10:45 AM +0000 11/22/09, Anne Wilson wrote:
As I said at the beginning of this thread, we are testing this extension on a sandbox wiki. We have involved a few translators from different backgrounds. With the minimum of instruction they have played with a sample page or two. There has been some feedback - things that they would like changing, but I'm told that nothing they have said is difficult to set up (I am not a php person, I have to leave that part to others).
I cannot understand why you think that the extension doesn't work with wiki pages. And for those with other translation needs, exporting a .po file seems to be very useful to them.
I don't think I said that it doesn't work with wiki pages (I have NOT tested it, so I really don't know). BUT the information available to me makes it look like it is meant for interfaces.
From my perspective, the statements made here seem strange. I'm one of the
people who would be most interested in a good translation extension. When the topic came up, Siebrand suggested this extension as if it is obvious that it would translate pages as well as the interface. That seemed to me like an error, since ALL the examples and links on the pages given show how it can be used for interfaces. So it is NOT obvious. I STILL have no example showing how this extension can be used to translate anything other than an interface.
I could very well be wrong, but there isn't any evidence to show that this extension can be used in the way suggested.
PLEASE, someone prove me wrong. Give me a link to somewhere that this is being used to translate something that is NOT an interface.
I just want some evidence that this extension does what you claim it does.
From the documentation I've seen on translatewiki.net, it doesn't appear to
be able to handle more complex translation.
Perhaps you need to explain exactly what it is that you want, that the extension can't do. If you have misunderstood, then someone will be able to help you. If it really can't do it, then it will be possible to discuss whether it should be able to, or whether that's a different problem.
Anne
At a minimum, a translation extension needs to present the source document/page and target text side-by-side in large blocks of text. The target should allow complete wiki formatting, while the source should be "locked" so that it can't be edited on the page. It must be very easy to set up a source document to be translated and very easy to copy over the formatting of that document when needed.
Beyond this, it would be very useful to be able to look up individual words from the source document in various online dictionaries/glossaries (perhaps clicking on a word brings up a new window with the definition(s) from Google translate and other bilingual sources) so that the translator can easily consult and choose among alternative translations.
In addition, a good system would include some way of accessing past translations in other contexts, so that the translator can see how he/she has translated the same word/phrase before, or, even better, how many other translators have translated similar phrases (see Google's translation toolkit or many of the translation software packages used by professionals -- this feature is known as "translation memories")
I'm not particularly well versed in how good translation software works, so there is likely other features that would be useful. But I think the above covers the most basic needs.
I encourage those who need a translation extension or are involved in programming one to look at Google's translation toolkit for an example of the basics (Google's toolkit isn't particularly good -- the commercial packages are much better -- but it does give an idea of what a translator needs).
Kent
On Tuesday 24 November 2009 12:16:03 Kent S. Larsen II wrote:
I am not a translator, so I can only report what our test translators and my own experiments show.
At a minimum, a translation extension needs to present the source document/page and target text side-by-side in large blocks of text. The target should allow complete wiki formatting, while the source should be "locked" so that it can't be edited on the page. It must be very easy to set up a source document to be translated and very easy to copy over the formatting of that document when needed.
You get a 2-pane view of each segment - the source on the left and space to translate on the right. As far as I can see the formatting automatically follows exactly what the source uses. You do not need to do anything about it at all.
Beyond this, it would be very useful to be able to look up individual words from the source document in various online dictionaries/glossaries (perhaps clicking on a word brings up a new window with the definition(s) from Google translate and other bilingual sources) so that the translator can easily consult and choose among alternative translations.
In addition, a good system would include some way of accessing past translations in other contexts, so that the translator can see how he/she has translated the same word/phrase before, or, even better, how many other translators have translated similar phrases (see Google's translation toolkit or many of the translation software packages used by professionals -- this feature is known as "translation memories")
These features are not present in on-line editing, but it does have the ability to export a .po file which is, I understand, the standard format used by translation programs. You can edit externally, then import the result.
The drawback is that it is slightly less controlled, in that you could conceivably have one person translating an article on-line at the same time as another person translates off-line. Clearly you would have to set up some sort of control system to deal with that. But then in any system you need to know that only one person is working on a file or page.
I'm not particularly well versed in how good translation software works, so there is likely other features that would be useful. But I think the above covers the most basic needs.
I encourage those who need a translation extension or are involved in programming one to look at Google's translation toolkit for an example of the basics (Google's toolkit isn't particularly good -- the commercial packages are much better -- but it does give an idea of what a translator needs).
I much prefer to take the word of people who are professional translators. Ours tell me that this extension is good. Siebrand did give you links to further reading and examples. It doesn't sound as though you followed them.
Anne
The Translate extension seems to be made for translating the interfaces of software projects. It doesn't seem to be set up to translate documents or wiki content.
Are you SURE that the translate extension is what cornell is asking for?
I've looked at the Translate extension, but.. it really doesn't seem to server the purpose.
Maybe some clarity.... on the OOoWiki, there are two levels of translation happening: 1. The organized translations that export wiki pages, convert to po or xlif and run the content through a formal translation process/tool using translation memories etc. 2. The ad-hoc translations that are done on the fly by OOo community members.
The second one is the problem area. Community members are, through lack of experience and knowledge, translating directly in the source page overwriting the original content in the process.
What I'm looking to do is to make the process more... obvious I guess... thus my "dream" extension that adds a "Translate this page" link at the top next to the Edit link.
I've also had some success using the ProofreadPage and DoubleWiki extensions, which allow side-by-side display of a wiki page with an image of a page.
Hmmmm I might have to take a look at that.
Another extension I'm hoping to implement is FlaggedRevs... it's not the right solution for the translation issues, but... it might help limit the unintentional damage done by well meaning community members.
C.
All, maybe it is only a opinion from someone who isn't a code writer, but I think it is more a matter of involving people than finding technical ways. respecfully, Nevio
2009/11/18 Clayton ccornell@openoffice.org
The Translate extension seems to be made for translating the interfaces
of
software projects. It doesn't seem to be set up to translate documents or wiki content.
Are you SURE that the translate extension is what cornell is asking for?
I've looked at the Translate extension, but.. it really doesn't seem to server the purpose.
Maybe some clarity.... on the OOoWiki, there are two levels of translation happening:
- The organized translations that export wiki pages, convert to po or
xlif and run the content through a formal translation process/tool using translation memories etc. 2. The ad-hoc translations that are done on the fly by OOo community members.
The second one is the problem area. Community members are, through lack of experience and knowledge, translating directly in the source page overwriting the original content in the process.
What I'm looking to do is to make the process more... obvious I guess... thus my "dream" extension that adds a "Translate this page" link at the top next to the Edit link.
I've also had some success using the ProofreadPage and DoubleWiki extensions, which allow side-by-side display of a wiki page with an image of a page.
Hmmmm I might have to take a look at that.
Another extension I'm hoping to implement is FlaggedRevs... it's not the right solution for the translation issues, but... it might help limit the unintentional damage done by well meaning community members.
C.
Clayton Cornell ccornell@openoffice.org OpenOffice.org Documentation Project co-lead StarOffice - Sun Microsystems, Inc. - Hamburg, Germany
MediaWiki-l mailing list MediaWiki-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
On Wednesday 18 November 2009 09:23:11 Clayton wrote:
What I'm looking to do is to make the process more... obvious I guess... thus my "dream" extension that adds a "Translate this page" link at the top next to the Edit link.
It does that - and it sets up systems for on-line translation, but you need to read the wiki about how it works. OTOH, I don't think there is any way you could possibly keep translation open to all and at the same time avoid the possibility of someone overwriting your original page. It's happened on ours just a couple of times, necessitating a rollback. We are running the extension on a sandbox, but that's one problem I don't expect it to be able to solve :-)
Anne
On 11/18/09 14:58, Anne Wilson wrote:
On Wednesday 18 November 2009 09:23:11 Clayton wrote:
What I'm looking to do is to make the process more... obvious I guess... thus my "dream" extension that adds a "Translate this page" link at the top next to the Edit link.
It does that - and it sets up systems for on-line translation, but you need to read the wiki about how it works. OTOH, I don't think there is any way you could possibly keep translation open to all and at the same time avoid the possibility of someone overwriting your original page. It's happened on ours just a couple of times, necessitating a rollback. We are running the extension on a sandbox, but that's one problem I don't expect it to be able to solve :-)
I definitely don't want to lock down things so that people cannot translate at all. There is a translation process that is being worked on (offline process involving page exports etc.).
Managing the ad-hoc translations won't fit into the Translation Extension, but I have forwarded the info about the Translation extension to the people involved in the more formal translation process... we/they will be looking into it when there is time (is there ever any time?)
For the ad-hoc translations, I've done a few things - one is to put a notice just under the Save button, and I've also added a few Help: pages to try and provide more information.
So... thanks for the help and tips. It's all going to be in one way or another :-)
C.
mediawiki-l@lists.wikimedia.org