Reply to off-list dialog:
Subject: Any leads on a basic wiki setup-and-configure instruction manual? ... I am running multiple MediaWiki implementations on a shared Linux server at content hosting site, where I do not have root access. The install went surprisingly smoothly, given my past experience with Open Source software...
Peter Blaise says: ... BECAUSE you only installed the MediaWiki, NOT the OS/Apache/PHP/MySQL and other support programs and extensions, right?
... I have never tried running MediaWiki on a Windows machine. I think getting all the planets to line up can be a chore. My suggestion is to pick up one of the decent Linux distributions (I have had good success with Ubuntu server) and install a LAMP configuration on a spare low-end PC (my test Linux server is an ancient i-Series laptop with 400 Mhz processor and 192 MB RAM)...
Peter Blaise says: GREAT advice for personal development and content development and configuration, however, my target work environment is WinXPPro with or without admin rights!
... Running multiple instances of MediaWiki basically involves installing MediaWiki multiple times in different subdirectories. You can point each one to a separate mySQL database, or share mySQL databases by specifying a database table prefix (there is a prompt in the MediaWiki installation process). What I would REALLY like to do is install multiple MediaWiki instances sharing a common MediaWiki code install. I found a number of instructions - the first did not work, and I ran out of time before I could try the second...
Peter Blaise says: GREAT challenge - multiple MySQL services ... MySQL offers to name itself as a service, and perhaps I can play with that and have 2 or more MySQLs running at the same time without bumping into each other...
... As far as MediaWiki support is concerned, you get what you pay for... I have posted two questions so far and did not receive a response. I am not surprised - the questions were outside of the normal scope of interest of list subscribers. I figured one out myself, and will probably 'crack the code' and fix the other one. I have not tried registering on the MediaWiki Wiki - on my list of 'round toits'. And I agree that it would be great if the Wiki was better organized. From personal experience, it won't happen until someone takes the initiative or MediaWiki becomes popular enough for a 'paid' support organization to be justified...
Peter Blaise says: Agreed, but look at the efforts SOLO people offer, like http://www.irfanview.com/ and http://www.photools.com/ and http://grc.com/ so many CLEAN solo efforts. I appreciate MediaWiki success depends on things outside of MediaWiki's control, such as Apache and PHP and MySQL and so many other disorganized open source programs, but the installation decision tree is surprisingly simple: Linux or Windows, then Apache or IIS, then MySQL or PostgreSQL, and so on - all almost simply 2 choices at each junction. No one since 1994 has built a decision tree? Wow!
Thanks for confirming much of my experience. I've been building and crashing dozens of MediaWikis daily for months now (I've been at this since early February of this year). Though I imagine that I now know more than the average bear, especially those lucky ones who had no problems, I still don't really feel a lot smarter, and I can still go a whole day without any success, with half a dozen MediaWiki/Apache/MySQL/PHP/PHPMyAdmin installation attempts tried, deleted and rebooted from!
I got MediaWiki on WOS working fine (http://www.chsoftware.net/en/useware/wos/wos.htm?action=download ) as a local, single-user wiki for development. I made copies of that on a few tester's hard drives to let them each play. They now have private MediaWikis and can give me useful development feedback (though they can't see each other's changes!): - "Why are links red?" - "Who owns the pages I create?" - "How do I create 20 pages of separate legal paragraphs, yet refer to them all as one "chapter", and then print them all together on demand?" - "How do I print the entire wiki as a book?" - "How do I upload / convert my legacy ducuments into the wiki?" Argh - maybe we should return to MS Word and a .NET/XML/ASP/HTTP development/publishing shop after all!)
Here's what I've trying to explore now, multiple MediaWiki wise:
For simplicity's sake, I let Apache keep it's ...\htdocs... directory and don't try to reconfigure that for these tests.
- Wiki #1: US TMEP Wiki: I build a target wiki directory, such as: C:\www\apache2\htdocs\ustmepwiki\
- - I then copy the contents of MediaWiki zip/tar/gz expansion into that directory, then IE-browse there as http://localhost/ustmepwiki/ - and then MediaWiki offers to configure THAT wiki. I tell it to prefix the tables with "ustmep". Users can find it by IE-browsing to my computer-name/network-ID (which is "etc00322") like this: http://ETC00322/ustmepwiki/
- Wiki #2: US TDED Wiki: I build another target wiki directory, such as: C:\www\apache2\htdocs\ustdedwiki\
- - I then copy the contents of MediaWiki zip/tar/gz expansion into that directory, IE-browse there via http://localhost/ustdedwiki/ and then MediaWiki offers to configure THAT wiki, I tell it to prefix the tables with "ustded". Users can find it by IE-browsing to my computer-name/network-ID like this: http://ETC00322/ustdedwiki/
... and so on.
I can manually build a clean redirecting http page (even using notepad!) down one level at http://locahost/index.htm that simply offers 2 links to the different wikis, one link up to /ustmepwiki/ and one link up to /ustdedwiki/ for anyone who hits the root http://etc00322/ without remembering the subdirectories. I'll offer desktop shortcuts for end users, but people browse down to the root, and I don't what them to get lost.
Now, different databases, rather than shared databases?
So, I THINK I'm well on the way to a workable a script that builds MediaWiki on Microsoft Windows XP Pro, Apache, MySQL, PHP and PHPMyAdmin ... but until I successfully test it ... 10 times at least, through successive reboots, and see it working time and again, and also watch as a novice tries the script, I'm not sure it's ready for prime time! How many times have I tried something that worked perfectly on my computer, but on someone else's computer it failed miserably? I'm not even at that point at the moment since I can't get it reliable on my own computers, yet! Argh, argh, argh! One of our challenges here is that many of us do not have admin rights, so we have to be able to successfully install NOT in the hard drive root, and NOT touching the non-local Windows registry (also meaning NOT installing Apache/PHP as services for "all users") and staying out of "C:\Program Files" and "C:\Windows" directories. Windows has an environment variable for a user login name - %USERPROFILE%. So I'm experimenting with a script that allows any non-admin user to setup their own departmental MediaWiki on their own computer here:
"%USERPROFILE%\My Documents\www\apache2\htdocs\ust*wiki"
(ust = US Trademark Office, by the way, and * would be their department or project) ... which becomes, for me, for instance:
"C:\Documents and Settings\pmonahon\My Documents\www\apache2\htdocs\ust*wiki"
However, the 12 steps (?!?) to accurately install and coordinate Apache, MySQL, PHP, modify the PHP ini and move it, move PHP dll files, change Apache conf file, install and configure MediaWiki and PHPMyAdmin and so on ... well, these steps are still not unambiguously reliable, time after time, computer after computer, for me. That is why I am searching so diligently for anyone who has success in this particular environment using these particular modules.
Thanks for your sharing. I'll copy much of this to the MediaWiki-l as a resource at least. When I do have something I confirm is accurate, I'll share it and also post it somewhere to MediaWiki.org, though I agree, wiki's in general and MediaWiki.org/WikiMedia.org specifically are a scattered mess. ... maybe if ONE MediaWiki person took ownership rather than leaving it as a committee design, where I'm sure everyone presumes someone *else* will handle the messy reorganization stuff ...
- Peter Blaise
Peter Blaise says: GREAT challenge - multiple MySQL services ... MySQL offers to name itself as a service, and perhaps I can play with that
and
have 2 or more MySQLs running at the same time without bumping into
each
other...
Why would you need multiple mysql database servers running on the same system? If you need permission separation use separate databases in the server.
Thanks for confirming much of my experience. I've been building and crashing dozens of MediaWikis daily for months now (I've been at this since early February of this year). Though I imagine that I now know more than the average bear, especially those lucky ones who had no problems, I still don't really feel a lot smarter, and I can still go
a
whole day without any success, with half a dozen MediaWiki/Apache/MySQL/PHP/PHPMyAdmin installation attempts tried, deleted and rebooted from!
It sounds to me like you aren't a sysadmin... I hope.
I got MediaWiki on WOS working fine (http://www.chsoftware.net/en/useware/wos/wos.htm?action=download ) as
a
local, single-user wiki for development. I made copies of that on a
few
tester's hard drives to let them each play. They now have private MediaWikis and can give me useful development feedback (though they can't see each other's changes!):
Why don't you set up a test wiki?
So, I THINK I'm well on the way to a workable a script that builds MediaWiki on Microsoft Windows XP Pro, Apache, MySQL, PHP and
PHPMyAdmin
... but until I successfully test it ... 10 times at least, through successive reboots, and see it working time and again, and also watch
as
a novice tries the script, I'm not sure it's ready for prime time!
How
many times have I tried something that worked perfectly on my
computer,
but on someone else's computer it failed miserably? I'm not even at that point at the moment since I can't get it reliable on my own computers, yet! Argh, argh, argh! One of our challenges here is that many of us do not have admin rights, so we have to be able to successfully install NOT in the hard drive root, and NOT touching the non-local Windows registry (also meaning NOT installing Apache/PHP as services for "all users") and staying out of "C:\Program Files" and "C:\Windows" directories. Windows has an environment variable for a user login name - %USERPROFILE%. So I'm experimenting with a script that allows any non-admin user to setup their own departmental
MediaWiki
on their own computer here:
If you don't have admin rights, why don't you get a sysadmin to do this for you, and have it set up in one centralized location? Why does each wiki need to be running on a different system?
It sounds like your project is fairly large, and probably too large for you to handle. I think you need to talk to your IT people before taking on a task like this. Your project seems doomed to failure currently.
However, the 12 steps (?!?) to accurately install and coordinate
Apache,
MySQL, PHP, modify the PHP ini and move it, move PHP dll files, change Apache conf file, install and configure MediaWiki and PHPMyAdmin and
so
on ... well, these steps are still not unambiguously reliable, time after time, computer after computer, for me. That is why I am
searching
so diligently for anyone who has success in this particular
environment
using these particular modules.
Done correctly, this wouldn't require that many steps. You would setup Apache, PHP, and MySQL once, and only have to set up MediaWiki for each new wiki. There is also an extension (or is it just a special configuration?) to allow MediaWiki to use the same source for all wikis.
You are absolutely going about this the wrong way. Wikis are meant to be a shared resource, not a one-user standalone application.
Thanks for your sharing. I'll copy much of this to the MediaWiki-l as
a
resource at least. When I do have something I confirm is accurate,
I'll
share it and also post it somewhere to MediaWiki.org, though I agree, wiki's in general and MediaWiki.org/WikiMedia.org specifically are a scattered mess. ... maybe if ONE MediaWiki person took ownership
rather
than leaving it as a committee design, where I'm sure everyone
presumes
someone *else* will handle the messy reorganization stuff ...
I ignored most of the flamebait, but this one actually coincides with the rest of this email. You do not understand the purpose of a wiki. One of the main ideas of a wiki is that no single person owns anything. It is a collaborative tool, and if you don't understand that, your project is worthless.
V/r,
Ryan Lane
Google "wamp." It will install Apache, mySQL and PHP on a Windows box. I resorted to this once upon a time. Was very easy. Once you have those installed, MediaWiki should be a breeze.
On 5/23/07 1:55 PM, "Monahon, Peter B." Peter.Monahon@USPTO.GOV either wrote, forwarded or quoted:
Peter Blaise says: ... BECAUSE you only installed the MediaWiki, NOT the OS/Apache/PHP/MySQL and other support programs and extensions, right?
mediawiki-l@lists.wikimedia.org