While considering what we can do to make translated pages more accessible we come up against the fact that by default page names remain in English, with only the langcode appended. This makes things difficult for, for instance, readers of Cyrillic or Chinese scripts.
One experiment has been to use redirects, so that the blahblah_(uk) page goes instead to one with a translated title. For an example, see http://userbase.kde.org/Applications/Utilities_(uk). The only snags we see there are that there must be an awareness of the two-parts of the translation job, and that it will result in very many pages which contain only a redirect. Please correct me if I'm wrong in thinking that this will not put a significant extra load on the server.
There is a further problem, though, if we wish to avoid the English+langcode title. Some pages consist of only an application name, which will not, of course, be translated. At the moment we can't see any way other than using the langcode to separate them. There is even the possiblity of other pages, particularly in Scandinavian languages, having the same page-name, due to similarities in the languages. This seems to open up a huge can of worms.
We had a brief moment of hope when we saw {{DISPLAYTITLE:DesiredTitle}}, but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Page_name seems to say that it can't help us.
Has anyone tackled these problems? Or does anyone have any ideas? Thanks
Anne
While considering what we can do to make translated pages more accessible we come up against the fact that by default page names remain in English, with only the langcode appended. This makes things difficult for, for instance, readers of Cyrillic or Chinese scripts.
[snip]
There is a further problem, though, if we wish to avoid the
English+langcode
title. Some pages consist of only an application name, which will not, of course, be translated. At the moment we can't see any way other than using the langcode to separate them. There is even the possiblity of other pages, particularly in Scandinavian languages, having the same page-name, due to similarities in the languages. This seems to open up a huge can of worms.
We had a brief moment of hope when we saw {{DISPLAYTITLE:DesiredTitle}}, but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Page_name seems to say that it can't help us.
Has anyone tackled these problems? Or does anyone have any ideas? Thanks
The OpenOffice.org Wiki has a similar problem. For various reasons, we opted a long time back to use a single namespace. To begin with, it wasn't an issue.. pages were only in English. As the Wiki grew, the various language communities started translating the Wiki pages. It started really organically, and pages were a hodgepodge of whatever looked right that day.
Recently (say in the last 18 months) we've started getting a handle on it, and working to organize things.. basically facing what appears to be the exact same issue you're dealing with.
The solution we came up with, is to use the ISO language code to differentiate each language group. The ISO code is reasonably well known and accepted... so this seems to work. We use interwiki links to link up each language groups. The result looks something like this:
baseURL/ISO_Lang_code/subpage1/subpage2/etc.
For example the Doc Project has its main English entry point here: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation the French one is here: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/FR/Documentation and so on. We still have a lot of work to do to get all pages lining up the same way, but this illustrates the "solution"
For specific content pages... say the Basic Guide, an English page is here: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/BASIC_Guide/Events and the corresponding Italian page then would be here: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/IT/Documentation/BASIC_Guide/Events
Note that we use English for the URL and then {{DISPLAYTITLE:title}} to localize the title shown on the pages.
Sometimes, where it makes sense, the page URL is also localized... for example: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/How_Tos/Calc:_TODAY_f... and the Dutch translation: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/NL/Documentation/How_Tos/Calc:_func... which still follows the same general naming structure, but allows for a language specific subpage.
It's an imperfect solution... but it's working.... the breadcrumbs work correctly (keeping the reader withing the selected language group if they use the breadcrumb links)... in most cases it's also quite easy to discover the translated versions (if, say interwiki links haven't yet been added) by simply prefixing the subpages in the URL with the ISO language code. Like I said, we still have some tidying to do to make it all consistent, but.. it's shaping up.
I'd also be interested in improvements in this idea...
C.
On Saturday 05 December 2009 15:50:36 Clayton wrote: <big snip>
It's an imperfect solution... but it's working.... the breadcrumbs work correctly (keeping the reader withing the selected language group if they use the breadcrumb links)... in most cases it's also quite easy to discover the translated versions (if, say interwiki links haven't yet been added) by simply prefixing the subpages in the URL with the ISO language code. Like I said, we still have some tidying to do to make it all consistent, but.. it's shaping up.
Thanks. That certainly explains your setup clearly, and it does help to be able to see those example pages. After reading the Help page I got the impression that we couldn't use {{DISPLAYTITLE:DesiredTitle}} for this purpose, so it's great to see it working.
Can I ask which breadcrumbs extension you use with it? We haven't yet made a decision on that, so would be interested to hear your experience.
I'd also be interested in improvements in this idea...
If we find any further ideas that may be useful to you I'll certainly pass them back. Thanks for the help.
Anne
<big snip>
Haha.. it was a bit long winded :-)
Thanks. That certainly explains your setup clearly, and it does help to be able to see those example pages. After reading the Help page I got the impression that we couldn't use {{DISPLAYTITLE:DesiredTitle}} for this purpose, so it's great to see it working.
I think it was with 1.1.15 that DISPLAYTITLE was finally allowed to rewrite the entire title - prior to that we were using an extension that did the same thing.
Can I ask which breadcrumbs extension you use with it? We haven't yet made a decision on that, so would be interested to hear your experience.
The Breadcrumbs show up automatically when you use subpages as long as your subpages below the current page have content/exist. We haven't installed any extension to handle this.
If you want to see a detailed list of installed extensions on the OOoWiki, I've documented them here: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Help:Extensions
C.
Hi -
I noticed that you took the time to build a page to describe the extensions you installed, but you might be interested to know that MW includes such a page as part of the special pages:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Special:Version
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Special:VersionEvelyn http://appswhisperer.com
On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 3:15 PM, Clayton ccornell@openoffice.org wrote:
<big snip>
Haha.. it was a bit long winded :-)
Thanks. That certainly explains your setup clearly, and it does help to
be
able to see those example pages. After reading the Help page I got the impression that we couldn't use {{DISPLAYTITLE:DesiredTitle}} for this purpose, so it's great to see it working.
I think it was with 1.1.15 that DISPLAYTITLE was finally allowed to rewrite the entire title - prior to that we were using an extension that did the same thing.
Can I ask which breadcrumbs extension you use with it? We haven't yet
made a
decision on that, so would be interested to hear your experience.
The Breadcrumbs show up automatically when you use subpages as long as your subpages below the current page have content/exist. We haven't installed any extension to handle this.
If you want to see a detailed list of installed extensions on the OOoWiki, I've documented them here: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Help:Extensions
C.
Clayton Cornell ccornell@openoffice.org OpenOffice.org Documentation Project co-lead Sun Microsystems, Hamburg, Germany
MediaWiki-l mailing list MediaWiki-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
Evelyn Yoder wrote:
Hi -
I noticed that you took the time to build a page to describe the extensions you installed, but you might be interested to know that MW includes such a page as part of the special pages:
Yes, I'm aware of that, but, we have one or two custom extensions, some extensions (at least in the past) only show up on the Versions page as hooks, functions or tags, and some extensions need custom local documentation (I've made mods to some that in some cases I still need to document). I also link to the external documentation directly where I can where the Versions page links to the main Extension page - this was not really helping some of our less technically savvy users who just wanted to know how to use the extension... not how to install it. :-)
C.
huh. interesting. But I think it's too bad that users (non-technical and otherwise) need so much hand-holding when it come to software.
With a DVD player (or a car or house), a user will press the button or flip a switch to learn what a thing does. With software, and tools like MediaWiki, there is this underlying fear of "breaking it", so a user won't play in the sandbox. It's too bad.
Evelyn ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Evelyn Yoder Technical Communications http://appswhisperer.com
On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 4:29 PM, Clayton ccornell@openoffice.org wrote:
Evelyn Yoder wrote:
Hi -
I noticed that you took the time to build a page to describe the
extensions
you installed, but you might be interested to know that MW includes such
a
page as part of the special pages:
Yes, I'm aware of that, but, we have one or two custom extensions, some extensions (at least in the past) only show up on the Versions page as hooks, functions or tags, and some extensions need custom local documentation (I've made mods to some that in some cases I still need to document). I also link to the external documentation directly where I can where the Versions page links to the main Extension page - this was not really helping some of our less technically savvy users who just wanted to know how to use the extension... not how to install it. :-)
C.
Clayton Cornell ccornell@openoffice.org OpenOffice.org Documentation Project co-lead Sun Microsystems, Hamburg, Germany
MediaWiki-l mailing list MediaWiki-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
On Sunday 06 December 2009 13:57:20 Evelyn Yoder wrote:
huh. interesting. But I think it's too bad that users (non-technical and otherwise) need so much hand-holding when it come to software.
With a DVD player (or a car or house), a user will press the button or flip a switch to learn what a thing does. With software, and tools like MediaWiki, there is this underlying fear of "breaking it", so a user won't play in the sandbox. It's too bad.
Definitely not! The only way you get that kind of functionality is by tying it down, hard-coded, until it sort-of works and doesn't actually do what anyone wants. Dumbing down is not what we want.
Life is too short to make every mistake yourself. As long as lists like these provide help to solve problems, there really is no issue.
Anne
huh. interesting. But I think it's too bad that users (non-technical and otherwise) need so much hand-holding when it come to software.
With a DVD player (or a car or house), a user will press the button or flip a switch to learn what a thing does. With software, and tools like MediaWiki, there is this underlying fear of "breaking it", so a user won't play in the sandbox. It's too bad.
Well, back in the days of VCRs under everyone's television, how many people did you know that had one with the clock permanently flashing 12:00 because they couldn't figure out how to set it?
I try to take the approach of making as easy as possible for new users to get over that fear and jump in. Some do, some don't. Some still open bug reports (a complicated process) instead of simply editing the Wiki text. Others wouldn't use the installed functionality on the OOoWiki because they weren't aware of it, or were intimidated by the Versions page. By putting the list into the Help: pages it's made them more visible somehow... and I also have started announcing new Extensions using MediaWiki:Sitenotice.
It all helps :-)
C.
On Monday 07 December 2009 10:58:11 ccornell - OpenOffice.org wrote:
By putting the list into the Help: pages it's made them more visible somehow... and I also have started announcing new Extensions using MediaWiki:Sitenotice.
This is the approach we are starting to take. It's become obvious to us that things that are really not difficult are not even tried because the user didn't find any documentation that is sufficiently re-assuring. Consequently, we are re-writing our Help pages, adding new ones, and creating extra documentation for any extensions that users might be aware of.
Anne
On Saturday 05 December 2009 20:15:22 Clayton wrote:
<big snip>
Haha.. it was a bit long winded :-)
Oops - sorry about that :-)
I think it was with 1.1.15 that DISPLAYTITLE was finally allowed to rewrite the entire title - prior to that we were using an extension that did the same thing.
That's good to know.
Can I ask which breadcrumbs extension you use with it? We haven't yet made a decision on that, so would be interested to hear your experience.
The Breadcrumbs show up automatically when you use subpages as long as your subpages below the current page have content/exist. We haven't installed any extension to handle this.
Now that does confuse me. On my page Applications/Office there are links to a couple of pages with content. Are you saying that I should see breadcrumbs on Applications/Office? I don't. I wonder, if you don't use an extension, whether there is something that must be enabled, then? (Btw, we are using 1.16alpha on this sandbox.)
If you want to see a detailed list of installed extensions on the OOoWiki, I've documented them here: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Help:Extensions
Wow! That's quite a list! I recognise some of those names, but not others. There are some there that would definitely be useful to us. Thanks for sharing that with us.
Anne
Anne Wilson wrote:
Can I ask which breadcrumbs extension you use with it? We haven't yet made a decision on that, so would be interested to hear your experience.
The Breadcrumbs show up automatically when you use subpages as long as your subpages below the current page have content/exist. We haven't installed any extension to handle this.
Now that does confuse me. On my page Applications/Office there are links to a couple of pages with content. Are you saying that I should see breadcrumbs on Applications/Office? I don't. I wonder, if you don't use an extension, whether there is something that must be enabled, then? (Btw, we are using 1.16alpha on this sandbox.)
They will only appear if the namespace in which they are, has subpages enabled. Plus, the intermediate pages might need to exist.
On Sunday 06 December 2009 15:45:00 Platonides wrote:
They will only appear if the namespace in which they are, has subpages enabled. Plus, the intermediate pages might need to exist.
My brain hurts tonight :-)
I have a page .....Applications, a page ......Applications/Office and a page Applications/Office/KOrganizer. Is this not subpages? Am I misunderstanding it?
None of those pages show any breadcrumbs.
Anne
Anne Wilson wrote:
On Sunday 06 December 2009 15:45:00 Platonides wrote:
They will only appear if the namespace in which they are, has subpages enabled. Plus, the intermediate pages might need to exist.
My brain hurts tonight :-)
I have a page .....Applications, a page ......Applications/Office and a page Applications/Office/KOrganizer. Is this not subpages? Am I misunderstanding it?
None of those pages show any breadcrumbs.
Anne
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Subpages
By default, MediaWiki's subpage feature is turned off in the main namespace, but can be used on talk pages and user pages. See Help:Namespaces. In namespaces where the feature is switched off, any slashes (/) within a
page
name are simply part of the page name and do nothing special.
To enable it on the main namespace, add to LocalSettings.php $wgNamespacesWithSubpages[NS_MAIN] = true;
On Sunday 06 December 2009 19:50:55 Platonides wrote:
Anne Wilson wrote:
On Sunday 06 December 2009 15:45:00 Platonides wrote:
They will only appear if the namespace in which they are, has subpages enabled. Plus, the intermediate pages might need to exist.
My brain hurts tonight :-)
I have a page .....Applications, a page ......Applications/Office and a page Applications/Office/KOrganizer. Is this not subpages? Am I misunderstanding it?
None of those pages show any breadcrumbs.
Anne
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Subpages
By default, MediaWiki's subpage feature is turned off in the main namespace, but can be used on talk pages and user pages. See Help:Namespaces. In namespaces where the feature is switched off, any slashes (/) within a
page
name are simply part of the page name and do nothing special.
To enable it on the main namespace, add to LocalSettings.php $wgNamespacesWithSubpages[NS_MAIN] = true;
Noted, thanks.
Anne
By default, MediaWiki's subpage feature is turned off in the main namespace, but can be used on talk pages and user pages. See Help:Namespaces. In namespaces where the feature is switched off, any slashes (/) within a
page
name are simply part of the page name and do nothing special.
To enable it on the main namespace, add to LocalSettings.php $wgNamespacesWithSubpages[NS_MAIN] = true;
Noted, thanks.
Ah yes, enabling subpages in the options.. that's the key. I forgot that was what drops in the automatic Breadcrumbs. Sorry :-P
C.
Hallo, Clayton,
Du meintest am 05.12.09:
If you want to see a detailed list of installed extensions on the OOoWiki, I've documented them here: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Help:Extensions
I've seen there "PasswordReset" - that might be helpful with my problem (spamming users).
Viele Gruesse! Helmut
mediawiki-l@lists.wikimedia.org