Re: [Mediawiki-l] fighting; WYSIWYG compatibility - Re: Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki - MediaWiki-l

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Re: [Mediawiki-l] fighting; WYSIWYG compatibility - Re: Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

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Jan Steinman

10 Aug 2006 10 Aug '06

9:24 p.m.

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From: "David Pace" <gps.david.pace(a)gmail.com> This attitdue of "don't like it? get out" strikes me as a bit antiethical.

I haven't heard exactly that -- I think that may be a little of "creative listening." What I don't like is the attitude that the core developers *should* do this or that *because* of this or that reason. My attitude is that if you want something, DO IT and give it back to the community. If it's popular enough, aids their purpose, and doesn't subvert their greater mandate, the developers will roll it in. But some here are stomping their feet and whining and threatening to abandon MediaWiki if this or that reason if their demand is not met. Yes, to them, I do say "GET OUT!" With open source, the motto is "Lead, follow, or GET OUT OF THE WAY!" Whining and demanding is none of the above. :::: Jan Steinman, Communication Steward, EcoReality: http:// www.EcoReality.org :::: :::: 160 Sharp Road, Salt Spring Island, BC V8K 2P6, Canada, 250.537.2024 ::::

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David Pace

10 Aug 10 Aug

9:56 p.m.

New subject: [Mediawiki-l] fighting; WYSIWYG compatibility - Re: Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

On 8/10/06, Jan Steinman <Jan(a)bytesmiths.com> wrote:

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From: "David Pace" <gps.david.pace(a)gmail.com> This attitdue of "don't like it? get out" strikes me as a bit antiethical.

I haven't heard exactly that -- I think that may be a little of "creative listening."

It's certainly your prerogative to think that, but that's the impression some people are left with regardless. What I don't like is the attitude that the core developers *should*

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do this or that *because* of this or that reason.

My understanding is that the core developers are working towards goals related to Wikimedia Foundation projects and that if those goals happen to be in line with what other users are interested in, then great. If not, well it's up to the user community to figure it out. I have NO problem with this. My attitude is that if you want something, DO IT and give it back to

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the community. If it's popular enough, aids their purpose, and doesn't subvert their greater mandate, the developers will roll it in.

I agree wholeheartedly. I just think that there is some pissing and moaning on both "sides" when subjects turn towards certain issues and I don't think that is befitting. But some here are stomping their feet and whining and threatening to

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abandon MediaWiki if this or that reason if their demand is not met. Yes, to them, I do say "GET OUT!"

Well, those people likely have no idea about the ethos involved here and can either be educated or shown the door, I agree. With open source, the motto is "Lead, follow, or GET OUT OF THE WAY!"

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Whining and demanding is none of the above.

Again, totally agreed. My issue is just that there seems to be some resistance to certain issues and some negative attitudes on both sides of the fence. Speaking as someone who is developing Mediawiki in a corporate environment I understand the core developers have no real interest nor any obligation to support my needs. What isn't clear to me is why some seem to think the needs of developers like myself don't really have a place on this list. Perhaps this can be addressed or explained?

Rick DeNatale

10:48 p.m.

New subject: [Mediawiki-l] fighting; WYSIWYG compatibility - Re: Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

On 8/10/06, David Pace <gps.david.pace(a)gmail.com> wrote:

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With open source, the motto is "Lead, follow, or GET OUT OF THE WAY!"

Whining and demanding is none of the above.

I've been a member of this list for quite some time, and I have to say that I've never seen that attitude expressed by the developers. I have seen patient explanations about why mediawiki is the way it is, andhow that relates to the needs of the wikimedia foundation. I've seen helpful suggestions about how to meet user's needs. Sometimes those helpful suggestions include looking at alternatives that might better meet the needs of, for example, corporate uses which have requirements for control which are antithetical to the goals of the organization which is footing the bill. Now that might be TAKEN as a suggestion that the folks with those requirement don't have a place on the list, but I don't think that that is the intent. -- Rick DeNatale IPMS/USA Region 12 Coordinator http://ipmsr12.denhaven2.com/ Visit the Project Mercury Wiki Site http://www.mercuryspacecraft.com/

David Pace

11:15 p.m.

New subject: [Mediawiki-l] fighting; WYSIWYG compatibility - Re: Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

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I've been a member of this list for quite some time, and I have to say that I've never seen that attitude expressed by the developers.

Fair enough, but perhaps your familiarity makes it difficult to see the problem. Not that I think there is a major one. I'm hopefully just trying to point out in a friendly way that sometimes reactions can be off-putting, even if totally unintentional. One of the dangers of the medium I suppose, eh? I have seen patient explanations about why mediawiki is the way it is,

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andhow that relates to the needs of the wikimedia foundation. I've seen helpful suggestions about how to meet user's needs.

As have I and I suppose now is as good a time as any to thank people on the list and the developers for all their work. Sometimes those helpful suggestions include looking at alternatives

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that might better meet the needs of, for example, corporate uses which have requirements for control which are antithetical to the goals of the organization which is footing the bill. Now that might be TAKEN as a suggestion that the folks with those requirement don't have a place on the list, but I don't think that that is the intent.

I don't either, not in all instances anyway. I think it may be easier for a relative newcomer to get some negative impressions though, especially in this recent line of discussion which got somewhat heated. I don't think that's really anyone's fault per se, just another casualty of communication by email perhaps. In any case I'm not terribly interested in arguing about it either way. I think I have a grasp of what the list is about and what I can expect and not expect and I'm fine with that, always have been.

Christiaan Briggs

11 Aug 11 Aug

1:23 p.m.

New subject: [Mediawiki-l] fighting; WYSIWYG compatibility - Re: Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

On 10 Aug 2006, at 8:24 PM, Jan Steinman wrote:

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What I don't like is the attitude that the core developers *should* do this or that *because* of this or that reason.

That's interesting. I'd be interested to see you quote where I said the "developers should" do anything.

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My attitude is that if you want something, DO IT and give it back to the community. If it's popular enough, aids their purpose, and doesn't subvert their greater mandate, the developers will roll it in.

And so anyone who can't programme should just shut up?

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But some here are stomping their feet and whining and threatening to abandon MediaWiki if this or that reason if their demand is not met. Yes, to them, I do say "GET OUT!"

I explained why we won't be using MediaWiki in our office anymore for reasons relating to participation in Wikimedia projects. It wasn't a threat and nor was it whining. Developers can do whatever the hell the like, yes, but they're not the only ones with a stake in MediaWiki development as long as MediaWiki is used by Wikimedia. If developers want to work towards the goals of Wikimedia (including the goal of broad participation) then the good ones will be happy to listen to those who have experiences to share, as many have on the Wikitech mail list. Christiaan

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Christiaan Briggs
David Pace
Jan Steinman
Rick DeNatale