Please convince me to make my software open source

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Bernard＠bernardHulsman.nl

18 Jan 2010 18 Jan '10

4:21 p.m.

We have build many extensions to improve the functionality of MediaWiki. It is for Enterprise use as Knowledge management infrastructure. The name of the extensions and additional functionality is Wikibox Blue. The software is propriety. It can be hosted as SAAS Today there has been a request if automatic signing of thread is possible in the discussion page. This is standard functionality in WikiForum. Which can be used in the talk namespace. But it is propriety software. So it can not be used. My question is here : Please convince me I have to make my propriety software open source. With some conditions : *I decide if I make Wikibox Blue Open source *I decide when Wikibox Blue will be Open source *I decide on which conditions Wikibox Blue will be open source. If you respect these conditions please try to convince me I should do it. Keep in mind it is a mayor step for me and my company. Bernard Hulsman

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nevio carlos de alarcão

18 Jan 18 Jan

4:39 p.m.

New subject: [Mediawiki-l] Please convince me to make my software open source

Dear Bernard, It's hard for senior executives to imagine a world where their company could lose control, Wikinomics book by Dan Tapscott ans Anthony Williams say, but it's just what we live for: making the world a better place and things easier for all. Please, consider making your property sofware open source. Many people would be benefitted. Best regards, Névio 2010/1/18 Bernard(a)bernardHulsman.nl <bernard(a)bernardhulsman.nl>

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-- {+}Nevinho Venha para o Movimento Colaborativo http://sextapoetica.com.br !!

P. Mazart

4:45 p.m.

New subject: [Mediawiki-l] Please convince me to make my software open source

Hello Bernard, Am Montag, 18. Januar 2010 schrieb Bernard(a)bernardHulsman.nl:

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We have build many extensions to improve the functionality of MediaWiki.

Mediawiki is under the GPL, so if you have done any changes to MW you will have to release them under the GPL, too. In some points OpenSource ≠ GPL bye P.M.

Magnus Manske

4:58 p.m.

New subject: [Mediawiki-l] Please convince me to make my software open source

On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 4:45 PM, P. Mazart <pmazart(a)web.de> wrote:

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Hello Bernard, Am Montag, 18. Januar 2010 schrieb Bernard(a)bernardHulsman.nl:

We have build many extensions to improve the functionality of MediaWiki.

Mediawiki is under the GPL, so if you have done any changes to MW you will have to release them under the GPL, too.

If it's a new extension you developed yourself, I sincerely doubt you'll have to release them under GPL. Only if you modify an existing GPL extension, or the core code. Cheers, Magnus

Bernard＠bernardHulsman.nl

6:05 p.m.

New subject: [Mediawiki-l] Please convince me to make my software open source

Magnus Manske wrote:

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On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 4:45 PM, P. Mazart <pmazart(a)web.de> wrote:

Hello Bernard, Am Montag, 18. Januar 2010 schrieb Bernard(a)bernardHulsman.nl:

We have build many extensions to improve the functionality of MediaWiki.

Mediawiki is under the GPL, so if you have done any changes to MW you will have to release them under the GPL, too.

If it's a new extension you developed yourself, I sincerely doubt you'll have to release them under GPL. Only if you modify an existing GPL extension, or the core code. Cheers, Magnus

The change in MediaWiki I can distribute without any problems. And i have done so in the past. But for totally new extension which are only hooked to MediaWiki that not the case. Of course without MediaWiki it has less value. But it is independable. Second issue is I only use it as SAAS. On my own servers. There is no distrubution of software what so ever. That is allways possible.

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Platonides

4:58 p.m.

New subject: [Mediawiki-l] Please convince me to make my software open source

P. Mazart wrote:

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Hello Bernard, Am Montag, 18. Januar 2010 schrieb Bernard(a)bernardHulsman.nl:

We have build many extensions to improve the functionality of MediaWiki.

Mediawiki is under the GPL, so if you have done any changes to MW you will have to release them under the GPL, too. In some points OpenSource ≠ GPL bye P.M.

He has no need to release it. They can keep it for use only in the company.

Robert Cummings

4:46 p.m.

New subject: [Mediawiki-l] Please convince me to make my software open source

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Boris Steipe

6:06 p.m.

New subject: [Mediawiki-l] Please convince me to make my software open source

Also: in the information-based economy, an increasingly important part of the revenue of your activities is "mind-share". No better way to demonstrate your expertise to the world than to contribute something useful. B. On 18-Jan-10, at 11:46 AM, Robert Cummings wrote:

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Bernard＠bernardHulsman.nl

6:21 p.m.

New subject: [Mediawiki-l] Please convince me to make my software open source

Boris Steipe wrote:

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Boris. Thanks. That is indeed a good argument. But then I must be able to show that my expertise is indeed my expertise. My company is Wikiation. The bundle extensions is named Wikibox Blue. The copyright is and should stay mine!. That is. It can be GPL or an other Open Source license what I chose. If I should loose that then I should loose everything. I lost exclusive ownership of the software and I loose to demonstrate my expertise. Regards, Bernard

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On 18-Jan-10, at 11:46 AM, Robert Cummings wrote:

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Ryan Lane

6:29 p.m.

New subject: [Mediawiki-l] Please convince me to make my software open source

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Notice that you still hold the copyright on your extension whether you GPL it or not. Any changes made by third parties will need to stay GPL, but your original source, and any modifications are still owned by you. You can never un-GPL the software that is already released, but you can re-close your own source, and keep any new changes proprietary. You can ensure that your source never becomes polluted by keeping two separate branches of your code, one which is GPL, and the other that is proprietary. If you ever decide to re-close your source, your proprietary branch is safe. Respectfully, Ryan Lane

Boris Steipe

6:38 p.m.

New subject: [Mediawiki-l] Please convince me to make my software open source

In my area of work (bioinformatics) I have not seen convincing business models that were based on charging for code. Integration, customization, consulting - yes, it needs a lot of expertise to get that right and people are willing to pay for that expertise. Contributing to the open-source pool advertises your organization's capacity to understand real-world issues and address them in a viable way. $0.02 - B. On 18-Jan-10, at 1:21 PM, Bernard(a)bernardHulsman.nl wrote:

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Boris Steipe wrote:

On 18-Jan-10, at 11:46 AM, Robert Cummings wrote:

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Bernard＠bernardHulsman.nl

7:22 p.m.

New subject: [Mediawiki-l] Please convince me to make my software open source

Boris Steipe wrote:

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Boris, I am not thinking about charging for code. There must be a barrier between Open Source and SAAS. But this barrier does not need to be charging money. For developers your argument is correct. I am not a developer. I am an architect who design the software and the developer programs it. The developer get paid for his work. It is my ownership, my (Open Source) copyright. On details I am not the best person to go to. If there is a bug the developer can solve it better. But for the big architecture I am the one who does the design. And if I am not there the work can continue for a few months and then its stuck. So as a business model this does not work for me. With regards Bernard

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On 18-Jan-10, at 1:21 PM, Bernard(a)bernardHulsman.nl wrote:

Boris Steipe wrote:

On 18-Jan-10, at 11:46 AM, Robert Cummings wrote:

Hi Bernard, By open-sourcing your work the community gains from your work; however, this generally forms a positive reciprocity loop whereby the community will feed back into your contributions with their own enhancements, ideas, and bug fixes from which you will then benefit. Cheers, Rob. Bernard(a)bernardHulsman.nl wrote: > We have build many extensions to improve the functionality of > MediaWiki. > It is for > Enterprise use as Knowledge management infrastructure. The name of > the > extensions and additional > functionality is Wikibox Blue. The software is propriety. > > It can be hosted as SAAS > > Today there has been a request if automatic signing of thread is > possible in the discussion page. > This is standard functionality in WikiForum. Which can be used > in the > talk namespace. > > But it is propriety software. So it can not be used. > > My question is here : Please convince me I have to make my > propriety > software open source. > > With some conditions : > *I decide if I make Wikibox Blue Open source > *I decide when Wikibox Blue will be Open source > *I decide on which conditions Wikibox Blue will be open source. > > If you respect these conditions please try to convince me I > should do > it. Keep in mind it is a > mayor step for me and my company. > > Bernard Hulsman > > _______________________________________________ > MediaWiki-l mailing list > MediaWiki-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l > > > -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP _______________________________________________ MediaWiki-l mailing list MediaWiki-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l

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Boris Steipe

8:11 p.m.

New subject: [Mediawiki-l] Please convince me to make my software open source

But that is exactly what I meant (sorry if I was oblique). In this case the business is not based on selling the code. Therefore there are no downsides to open-sourcing the code, and many tangible advantages, not only altruism. B. On 18-Jan-10, at 2:22 PM, Bernard(a)bernardHulsman.nl wrote:

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Boris Steipe wrote:

On 18-Jan-10, at 1:21 PM, Bernard(a)bernardHulsman.nl wrote:

Boris Steipe wrote:

On 18-Jan-10, at 11:46 AM, Robert Cummings wrote: > Hi Bernard, > > By open-sourcing your work the community gains from your work; > however, > this generally forms a positive reciprocity loop whereby the > community > will feed back into your contributions with their own > enhancements, > ideas, and bug fixes from which you will then benefit. > > Cheers, > Rob. > > > Bernard(a)bernardHulsman.nl wrote: > > >> We have build many extensions to improve the functionality of >> MediaWiki. >> It is for >> Enterprise use as Knowledge management infrastructure. The >> name of >> the >> extensions and additional >> functionality is Wikibox Blue. The software is propriety. >> >> It can be hosted as SAAS >> >> Today there has been a request if automatic signing of thread is >> possible in the discussion page. >> This is standard functionality in WikiForum. Which can be used >> in the >> talk namespace. >> >> But it is propriety software. So it can not be used. >> >> My question is here : Please convince me I have to make my >> propriety >> software open source. >> >> With some conditions : >> *I decide if I make Wikibox Blue Open source >> *I decide when Wikibox Blue will be Open source >> *I decide on which conditions Wikibox Blue will be open source. >> >> If you respect these conditions please try to convince me I >> should do >> it. Keep in mind it is a >> mayor step for me and my company. >> >> Bernard Hulsman >> >> _______________________________________________ >> MediaWiki-l mailing list >> MediaWiki-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l >> >> >> > -- > http://www.interjinn.com > Application and Templating Framework for PHP > > _______________________________________________ > MediaWiki-l mailing list > MediaWiki-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l > > _______________________________________________ MediaWiki-l mailing list MediaWiki-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l

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Bernard＠bernardHulsman.nl

8:27 p.m.

New subject: [Mediawiki-l] Please convince me to make my software open source

Boris Steipe wrote:

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Boris, my model is a SAAS model. I have quite high costs and customers pay for benefits, so for these cost. If the software is also Open Source a competor can arise, with my software, without hardly any cost, and so he can be cheaper then me. So he gets the profits, I get the cost. That won't take long. I do not mind to have a competitor with my software. This is really not a easy thing to say. I have thought a long time about this. But there must be a barrier between my competitor and me. The competitor must earn enough money to stay alive. And keep me sharp. And I must earn enough money to pay my developers. And stay alive.

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On 18-Jan-10, at 2:22 PM, Bernard(a)bernardHulsman.nl wrote:

Boris Steipe wrote:

On 18-Jan-10, at 1:21 PM, Bernard(a)bernardHulsman.nl wrote:

Boris Steipe wrote: > Also: in the information-based economy, an increasingly important > part of the revenue of your activities is "mind-share". No > better way > to demonstrate your expertise to the world than to contribute > something useful. > B. > > > Boris. Thanks. That is indeed a good argument. But then I must be able to show that my expertise is indeed my expertise. My company is Wikiation. The bundle extensions is named Wikibox Blue. The copyright is and should stay mine!. That is. It can be GPL or an other Open Source license what I chose. If I should loose that then I should loose everything. I lost exclusive ownership of the software and I loose to demonstrate my expertise. Regards, Bernard > On 18-Jan-10, at 11:46 AM, Robert Cummings wrote: > > > > >> Hi Bernard, >> >> By open-sourcing your work the community gains from your work; >> however, >> this generally forms a positive reciprocity loop whereby the >> community >> will feed back into your contributions with their own >> enhancements, >> ideas, and bug fixes from which you will then benefit. >> >> Cheers, >> Rob. >> >> >> Bernard(a)bernardHulsman.nl wrote: >> >> >> >>> We have build many extensions to improve the functionality of >>> MediaWiki. >>> It is for >>> Enterprise use as Knowledge management infrastructure. The >>> name of >>> the >>> extensions and additional >>> functionality is Wikibox Blue. The software is propriety. >>> >>> It can be hosted as SAAS >>> >>> Today there has been a request if automatic signing of thread is >>> possible in the discussion page. >>> This is standard functionality in WikiForum. Which can be used >>> in the >>> talk namespace. >>> >>> But it is propriety software. So it can not be used. >>> >>> My question is here : Please convince me I have to make my >>> propriety >>> software open source. >>> >>> With some conditions : >>> *I decide if I make Wikibox Blue Open source >>> *I decide when Wikibox Blue will be Open source >>> *I decide on which conditions Wikibox Blue will be open source. >>> >>> If you respect these conditions please try to convince me I >>> should do >>> it. Keep in mind it is a >>> mayor step for me and my company. >>> >>> Bernard Hulsman >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> MediaWiki-l mailing list >>> MediaWiki-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l >>> >>> >>> >>> >> -- >> http://www.interjinn.com >> Application and Templating Framework for PHP >> >> _______________________________________________ >> MediaWiki-l mailing list >> MediaWiki-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > MediaWiki-l mailing list > MediaWiki-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l > > > _______________________________________________ MediaWiki-l mailing list MediaWiki-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l

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jidanni＠jidanni.org

20 Jan 20 Jan

8:19 p.m.

New subject: [Mediawiki-l] Please convince me to make my software open source

E.g., I write a program to crack the AIDS virus. If it is open source, the virus gets cracked earlier, and I am a hero and get lots of chicks. Even if it is not me at the helm when the final solution is reached, it would be a lot more fun than Noname Schleeb at Nurdsburg Laboratories, who wouldn't even be allowed to post such questions.

Kurt M. Weber

18 Jan 18 Jan

6:17 p.m.

New subject: [Mediawiki-l] Please convince me to make my software open source

Bernard(a)bernardHulsman.nl wrote:

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You really shouldn't make it open source. If your business model at all involves making money directly off these extensions, then open-sourcing it will remove any barrier whatsoever to people paying you for them. It's simply absurd. Kurt M. Weber kmw(a)outwardhosting.com

Bernard＠bernardHulsman.nl

6:32 p.m.

New subject: [Mediawiki-l] Please convince me to make my software open source

Kurt M. Weber wrote:

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Bernard(a)bernardHulsman.nl wrote:

Kurt, thank you for really thinking with me. I have been thinking about this. I feel Open Source is good. But Open Source is not enough. I feel like intension must also open. So my Business model is open. See http://www.wikiation.nl/Business_model This is quite rare thing to do. You are right. There must be a barrier between my SAAS Wikibox Blue and Open Source Wikibox Blue. My ability of making money really depends on these extensions. Thats why they are so valueble to me. Kurt to you and to all. I really appreciate the way you are thinking we me. This is important to me. Regards Bernard

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Ryan Lane

6:35 p.m.

New subject: [Mediawiki-l] Please convince me to make my software open source

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All of my extensions are open source. I have made money off of most of them by doing support. I make money doing support even though I generally give support away for free. People are willing to pay to have faster turnaround, and to have features added that are more work than I'm willing to do in my spare time for free. Open sourcing the extensions makes it far more likely that people will use them. It'll be more likely that they'll get improved, and maintained, and that features will be added more quickly. That is a perfect situation to offer support services. Since these extensions are for enterprise environments, it is likely that support will sell fairly well. Respectfully, Ryan Lane

Bernard＠bernardHulsman.nl

7:23 p.m.

New subject: [Mediawiki-l] Please convince me to make my software open source

Ryan Lane wrote:

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Ryan, see my reply to Boris. For developers that is correct. I am not a developer.

Ryan Lane

6:25 p.m.

New subject: [Mediawiki-l] Please convince me to make my software open source

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My question is here : Please convince me I have to make my propriety software open source.

You don't have to make it open source. I won't try to convince you that you need to. I will, on the other hand, try to convince you that you should open source it. 1. If your extensions are really nice, the community will use them, and will likely improve them for you. I've found this to be the case with the LDAP extension. 2. The community will find bugs in your software that your company hasn't noticed. This is especially useful for security. 3. It will garner respect and good will for your company in the community. 4. If you are not selling the software to others, it can honestly only benefit your company; internal software development is expensive, and this is a possibility to share that development cost with others inside and outside of your industry. Even if you are selling the software, you can switch to a support model. See Red Hat, and Sun Microsystems as examples (ignoring the fact that Sun is dying due to the Oracle merger). 5. These extensions may strengthen the MediaWiki enterprise community, which isn't a goal of the Wikimedia Foundation. The enterprise community needs some champions, and you can be one of them. Doing so makes it more likely that MediaWiki will be used in the enterprise, and will result in more enterprise features and extensions that will be useful for your company. I look forward to having another enterprise member adding their contributions as open source. If you do release your extensions, please ask for commit access, and add them to MediaWiki's SVN. Respectfully, Ryan Lane

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Bernard＠bernardHulsman.nl
Boris Steipe
jidanni＠jidanni.org
Kurt M. Weber
Magnus Manske
nevio carlos de alarcão
P. Mazart
Platonides
Robert Cummings
Ryan Lane