Hi there,
I'd like to request for a Wikipedia in Dutch-Low Saxon (±1.8 million speakers). There is currently a Low Saxon one but 95% of it is in German-Low Saxon and quite ununderstandable for Dutch-Low Saxon speakers.
We already have the minimum number of interested persons who will work on the Dutch-Low Saxon Wikipedia encyclopedia. (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages#Dutch-Low_Saxon)
Thanks in advance.
Servien Ilaino (I'm just new here)
As I noted before, it is a dialect continuum.
Stellingwarfs and Middel-pommersch are surely not mutually intelligible, but Grunnegers and Oostfreesk very well should be.
You are foolishly dividing Platt by nations. This is illogical. If we had an Oostfreesk Wikipedia, Grunnegers-speakers would surely understand it and vice-versa, even though Grunnegers is in the Netherlands and Oostfreesk is mostly in Germany.
The problem of dialect continuum is a very difficult one.
HOWEVER, given the community reaction to a request for a Baseldytsch Wikipedia, I think the same is logical for a request for a "Dutch Low Saxon" Wikipedia -- your language may be different to whatever degree than what many people on X Wikipedia use, but there is no rule forbidding its use. There is no rule against writing pages and pages and pages of content on nds.wiki in Stellingwarfs or Achterhooks. When I suggested doing this, I got a cold response that Dutch Low Saxon and German Low Saxon aren't mutually intelligible. Before whinging to us about that, can you at least actually try to use your dialect on nds.wiki to prove to us that it really doesn't work?
Mark
On 25/06/05, Servien Ilaino nl2b@europe.com wrote:
Hi there,
I'd like to request for a Wikipedia in Dutch-Low Saxon (±1.8 million speakers). There is currently a Low Saxon one but 95% of it is in German-Low Saxon and quite ununderstandable for Dutch-Low Saxon speakers.
We already have the minimum number of interested persons who will work on the Dutch-Low Saxon Wikipedia encyclopedia. (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages#Dutch-Low_Saxon)
Thanks in advance.
Servien Ilaino (I'm just new here)
-- ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Mark Williamson wrote:
As I noted before, it is a dialect continuum.
Stellingwarfs and Middel-pommersch are surely not mutually intelligible, but Grunnegers and Oostfreesk very well should be.
You are foolishly dividing Platt by nations. This is illogical. If we had an Oostfreesk Wikipedia, Grunnegers-speakers would surely understand it and vice-versa, even though Grunnegers is in the Netherlands and Oostfreesk is mostly in Germany.
The problem of dialect continuum is a very difficult one.
HOWEVER, given the community reaction to a request for a Baseldytsch Wikipedia, I think the same is logical for a request for a "Dutch Low Saxon" Wikipedia -- your language may be different to whatever degree than what many people on X Wikipedia use, but there is no rule forbidding its use. There is no rule against writing pages and pages and pages of content on nds.wiki in Stellingwarfs or Achterhooks. When I suggested doing this, I got a cold response that Dutch Low Saxon and German Low Saxon aren't mutually intelligible. Before whinging to us about that, can you at least actually try to use your dialect on nds.wiki to prove to us that it really doesn't work?
Mark
Mark here we go again. It has plenty of support and someone reacted to your arguments. You do not speak it. So how can you judge?
Walter/Waerth
According to GerardM today on IRC it is already a fait accompli that wiktionary will be replaced by ultimate wiktionary.
Waerth/Walter
Walter van Kalken wrote:
According to GerardM today on IRC it is already a fait accompli that wiktionary will be replaced by ultimate wiktionary.
Waerth/Walter
Hoi, It is a pity that Waerth does not do justice to what I said. What I said was that this is the time when people should discuss the functionality of what the Ultimate Wiktionary will become. People that wait until the implementation is there will find a fait accompli. This is a message that I have been saying for quite some time so there is nothing special about it. As to UW replacing the Wiktionaries, I have said and I say so again, it is up to the people and the communities to do what they want.
Thanks, GerardM
M se toujou pa sèten d ou ide. M panse ki anpil moun se dakò. Menm estrikti d Ouikipèdi kapab chanje kèk enpe byenke sa se deja yon "fait accompli", donk m espere ki UW se d menm ki branlan.
Je suis toujours incertain de vos idées. Je pense que la plupart des personnes sont d'accord. Même la structure de Wikipedia peut être changée quelque peu bien que ce soit déjà un "fait accompli", donc j'espérerais qu'UW est de même que flexible.
Mark
On 25/06/05, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Walter van Kalken wrote:
According to GerardM today on IRC it is already a fait accompli that wiktionary will be replaced by ultimate wiktionary.
Waerth/Walter
Hoi, It is a pity that Waerth does not do justice to what I said. What I said was that this is the time when people should discuss the functionality of what the Ultimate Wiktionary will become. People that wait until the implementation is there will find a fait accompli. This is a message that I have been saying for quite some time so there is nothing special about it. As to UW replacing the Wiktionaries, I have said and I say so again, it is up to the people and the communities to do what they want.
Thanks, GerardM _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Since those who care about my message obviously can't read Kreyòl, I'll rewrite it in English.
I'm still unsure of your ideas. I think that most people agree. The structure of Wikipedia can change a bit even though it's sort of a "fait accompli", thus I would hope that UW would be similarly flexible.
Mark
On 25/06/05, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
M se toujou pa sèten d ou ide. M panse ki anpil moun se dakò. Menm estrikti d Ouikipèdi kapab chanje kèk enpe byenke sa se deja yon "fait accompli", donk m espere ki UW se d menm ki branlan.
Je suis toujours incertain de vos idées. Je pense que la plupart des personnes sont d'accord. Même la structure de Wikipedia peut être changée quelque peu bien que ce soit déjà un "fait accompli", donc j'espérerais qu'UW est de même que flexible.
Mark
On 25/06/05, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Walter van Kalken wrote:
According to GerardM today on IRC it is already a fait accompli that wiktionary will be replaced by ultimate wiktionary.
Waerth/Walter
Hoi, It is a pity that Waerth does not do justice to what I said. What I said was that this is the time when people should discuss the functionality of what the Ultimate Wiktionary will become. People that wait until the implementation is there will find a fait accompli. This is a message that I have been saying for quite some time so there is nothing special about it. As to UW replacing the Wiktionaries, I have said and I say so again, it is up to the people and the communities to do what they want.
Thanks, GerardM _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM POSSIT MATERIARI ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE
I will say it again: "Before whinging to us about that, can you at least actually try to use your dialect on nds.wiki to prove to us that it really doesn't work?"
Mark
On 25/06/05, Walter van Kalken walter@vankalken.net wrote:
Mark Williamson wrote:
As I noted before, it is a dialect continuum.
Stellingwarfs and Middel-pommersch are surely not mutually intelligible, but Grunnegers and Oostfreesk very well should be.
You are foolishly dividing Platt by nations. This is illogical. If we had an Oostfreesk Wikipedia, Grunnegers-speakers would surely understand it and vice-versa, even though Grunnegers is in the Netherlands and Oostfreesk is mostly in Germany.
The problem of dialect continuum is a very difficult one.
HOWEVER, given the community reaction to a request for a Baseldytsch Wikipedia, I think the same is logical for a request for a "Dutch Low Saxon" Wikipedia -- your language may be different to whatever degree than what many people on X Wikipedia use, but there is no rule forbidding its use. There is no rule against writing pages and pages and pages of content on nds.wiki in Stellingwarfs or Achterhooks. When I suggested doing this, I got a cold response that Dutch Low Saxon and German Low Saxon aren't mutually intelligible. Before whinging to us about that, can you at least actually try to use your dialect on nds.wiki to prove to us that it really doesn't work?
Mark
Mark here we go again. It has plenty of support and someone reacted to your arguments. You do not speak it. So how can you judge?
Walter/Waerth
(forwarded to Reinhart (Ron) Hahn to get his opinion)
[Some basic background on the issue for Ron: As you know there is already a Low Saxon Wikipedia. Somebody just requested a "Dutch Low Saxon" Wikipedia, complaining that nds.wiki is in "German Low Saxon". I expressed a few concerns, not least among them that in a case of a dialect continuum, it will be difficult for us to decide where to draw lines between varieties, and which varieties should get their own Wikipedias.]
Concerns that nobody has responded to yet:
* As I noted before, it is a dialect continuum. Stellingwarfs and Middel-pommersch are surely not easily mutually intelligible, but Grunnegers and Oostfreesk very well should be.
* Dividing Platt along national boundaries is illogical. If we had an Oostfreesk Wikipedia, Grunnegers-speakers would surely understand it and vice-versa, even though Grunnegers is in the Netherlands and Oostfreesk is mostly in Germany. There are no definite borders between one and the next, and the national border is just as arbitrary as any.
This would also mean that a man from the tiny village of Laar (in Germany) would use a different Wikipedia than a man from the tiny village of Gramsbergen (in the Netherlands), even though they're about 4km (~2.5mi) apart and their speech is identical. Does this make much sense?
* A case of a dialect continuum is a very new thing for us. We have no experience with it so far, or we have crammed them all into a single Wikipedia.
Mark
Mark Williamson wrote:
I will say it again: "Before whinging to us about that, can you at least actually try to use your dialect on nds.wiki to prove to us that it really doesn't work?"
Mark
There is two people from NDS both admins there supporting the creation of NDS-NL they are: Slomox and HeikoEvermann http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:HeikoEvermann&action=edit. They are native speakers of the dialects involved. You are most definately not. Read their arguments. Apart from that there is a minimum of 5 for and if you count Slomox 6.
You really want me to hustle up more support? I can do that if you want. It says 5 in support. Those are the rules. May I also point out that nl.wikipedia is doing quite well so is li.wikipedia and fy.wikipedia. So a wikipedia in another language in the Netherlands area might just do very well.
And on another point Papiamentu and Surinamese have also reached support of more than 5 people.
Here are the arguments in favour of NDS-NL by native speakers (Which Node most obviously is not)
Lowlands-l does not help here. After some discussions we have decided to use the German based spelling according to SASS for the nds wikipedia. The spelling proposed by Lowlands-l is no option for us. And I can understand very well, that the dutch based spelling and our spelling do not match. In addition to that we have another problem: when Low Saxon lacks a word, we (on the German side of the border) have the tendency to borrow a German word, and on the other side of the border they would certainly prefer to borrow a dutch word. The language fell apart a long time ago. In fact most people in Germany do not even know that there is a Low Saxon language on the other side of the border. When I think about the two different versions of the Norse wikipedia that are made for one single country and when I think about the Aromunian wikipedia, I think that having a separate wikipeda for nds-nl is the best option. HeikoEvermann http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:HeikoEvermann&action=edit 11:01, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
For what shall we try first? I looked for a comparison in English language and I would say, that nds-de and nds-nl are as far apart in pronounciation and in spelling as modern English and the 1400 example of middle English in en:Middle English http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_English (this isn't the best comparison because one is a parallel development and the other serial, but the best example I found). If it were possible I really would like and want *one* Wikipedia for both. But it would be very hard to understand. Sure, if there would be a common orthography neither based singly on German nor on Dutch, this would be easier, but there is no such common orthography that is in broader use. The actual reality is, that we need two Wikipedias. --Slomox http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Slomox 16:27, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Please read what I wrote, and respond to that, instead of just telling me over and over that my opinion doesn't count.
Mark
On 25/06/05, Walter van Kalken walter@vankalken.net wrote:
Mark Williamson wrote:
I will say it again: "Before whinging to us about that, can you at least actually try to use your dialect on nds.wiki to prove to us that it really doesn't work?"
Mark
There is two people from NDS both admins there supporting the creation of NDS-NL they are: Slomox and HeikoEvermann. They are native speakers of the dialects involved. You are most definately not. Read their arguments. Apart from that there is a minimum of 5 for and if you count Slomox 6.
You really want me to hustle up more support? I can do that if you want. It says 5 in support. Those are the rules. May I also point out that nl.wikipedia is doing quite well so is li.wikipedia and fy.wikipedia. So a wikipedia in another language in the Netherlands area might just do very well.
And on another point Papiamentu and Surinamese have also reached support of more than 5 people.
Here are the arguments in favour of NDS-NL by native speakers (Which Node most obviously is not)
Lowlands-l does not help here. After some discussions we have decided to use the German based spelling according to SASS for the nds wikipedia. The spelling proposed by Lowlands-l is no option for us. And I can understand very well, that the dutch based spelling and our spelling do not match. In addition to that we have another problem: when Low Saxon lacks a word, we (on the German side of the border) have the tendency to borrow a German word, and on the other side of the border they would certainly prefer to borrow a dutch word. The language fell apart a long time ago. In fact most people in Germany do not even know that there is a Low Saxon language on the other side of the border. When I think about the two different versions of the Norse wikipedia that are made for one single country and when I think about the Aromunian wikipedia, I think that having a separate wikipeda for nds-nl is the best option. HeikoEvermann 11:01, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
For what shall we try first? I looked for a comparison in English language and I would say, that nds-de and nds-nl are as far apart in pronounciation and in spelling as modern English and the 1400 example of middle English in en:Middle English (this isn't the best comparison because one is a parallel development and the other serial, but the best example I found). If it were possible I really would like and want one Wikipedia for both. But it would be very hard to understand. Sure, if there would be a common orthography neither based singly on German nor on Dutch, this would be easier, but there is no such common orthography that is in broader use. The actual reality is, that we need two Wikipedias. --Slomox 16:27, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Mark Williamson wrote:
Please read what I wrote, and respond to that, instead of just telling me over and over that my opinion doesn't count.
Mark
Your opinion does count. But a littlebit less than that of 2 native speakers who are actually admins off the "affected" wikipedia in question.
Waerth/Walter
That's not the impression I get from what you've been saying.
It's bad to just tell people over and over 'Your arguments are bad! You are not a native speaker! Not a native speaker!' (obviously you didn't use these words, but it seemed almost like it!).
Real problems should be addressed. Just because I am not fluent in Low Saxon does _NOT_ mean I cannot have a grasp of the sociopolitical issues involved.
Mark
On 25/06/05, Walter van Kalken walter@vankalken.net wrote:
Mark Williamson wrote:
Please read what I wrote, and respond to that, instead of just telling me over and over that my opinion doesn't count.
Mark
Your opinion does count. But a littlebit less than that of 2 native speakers who are actually admins off the "affected" wikipedia in question.
Waerth/Walter
Re Papiamentu and Sranan Tongo (NOT "Surinamese"), they have indeed gotten plenty of support votes but have any native speakers showed up yet? No. People have said "I have a friend..." or "My dad's business partner is a native speaker..." or things like that, but as of yet not a single native speaker has showed up to express their support for these Wikipedias. If they had, they would've been created with Cebuano, Kapampangan, Scots, and Võro.
Mark
On 25/06/05, Walter van Kalken walter@vankalken.net wrote:
Mark Williamson wrote:
I will say it again: "Before whinging to us about that, can you at least actually try to use your dialect on nds.wiki to prove to us that it really doesn't work?"
Mark
There is two people from NDS both admins there supporting the creation of NDS-NL they are: Slomox and HeikoEvermann. They are native speakers of the dialects involved. You are most definately not. Read their arguments. Apart from that there is a minimum of 5 for and if you count Slomox 6.
You really want me to hustle up more support? I can do that if you want. It says 5 in support. Those are the rules. May I also point out that nl.wikipedia is doing quite well so is li.wikipedia and fy.wikipedia. So a wikipedia in another language in the Netherlands area might just do very well.
And on another point Papiamentu and Surinamese have also reached support of more than 5 people.
Here are the arguments in favour of NDS-NL by native speakers (Which Node most obviously is not)
Lowlands-l does not help here. After some discussions we have decided to use the German based spelling according to SASS for the nds wikipedia. The spelling proposed by Lowlands-l is no option for us. And I can understand very well, that the dutch based spelling and our spelling do not match. In addition to that we have another problem: when Low Saxon lacks a word, we (on the German side of the border) have the tendency to borrow a German word, and on the other side of the border they would certainly prefer to borrow a dutch word. The language fell apart a long time ago. In fact most people in Germany do not even know that there is a Low Saxon language on the other side of the border. When I think about the two different versions of the Norse wikipedia that are made for one single country and when I think about the Aromunian wikipedia, I think that having a separate wikipeda for nds-nl is the best option. HeikoEvermann 11:01, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
For what shall we try first? I looked for a comparison in English language and I would say, that nds-de and nds-nl are as far apart in pronounciation and in spelling as modern English and the 1400 example of middle English in en:Middle English (this isn't the best comparison because one is a parallel development and the other serial, but the best example I found). If it were possible I really would like and want one Wikipedia for both. But it would be very hard to understand. Sure, if there would be a common orthography neither based singly on German nor on Dutch, this would be easier, but there is no such common orthography that is in broader use. The actual reality is, that we need two Wikipedias. --Slomox 16:27, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Re Papiamentu and Sranan Tongo (NOT "Surinamese")
Sranan means Surinamese Tongo means Tongue
Surinamese is a perfectly acceptable name to use for the language in English. A name any Sranan speaker would agree to. As they would agree to the name of Surinaams in Dutch.
And yes remember the earlier conversation. I lived in the country and learnt the lingo. It is rusty I admit though.
gotten plenty of support votes but have any native speakers showed up yet?
<skip>
these Wikipedias. If they had, they would've been created with Cebuano, Kapampangan, Scots, and Võro.
Who decides if wikipedias get created? You? It sometimes seems like it.
Waerth/Walter
Re Papiamentu and Sranan Tongo (NOT "Surinamese")
Sranan means Surinamese Tongo means Tongue
Surinamese is a perfectly acceptable name to use for the language in English. A name any Sranan speaker would agree to. As they would agree to the name of Surinaams in Dutch.
No, it is NOT an acceptable name to use because other languages are also spoken widely in Surinam such as Saramaccan, Aukan, Guyanese, Javanese, Chinese, and Native American languages. These are just as much "Surinamese" as Sranan. So while "Sranan" does indeed mean "Surinamese", the name "Sranan" is also used in English to distinguish it from other languages of Surinam.
And yes remember the earlier conversation. I lived in the country and learnt the lingo. It is rusty I admit though.
Well, you're one person, and "rusty I admit though" is not comforting at all. And what about Papiamento??
gotten plenty of support votes but have any native speakers showed up yet?
<skip>
these Wikipedias. If they had, they would've been created with Cebuano, Kapampangan, Scots, and Võro.
Who decides if wikipedias get created? You? It sometimes seems like it.
You know very well it isn't me. It's the decision of the developers, ultimately, although if a board member or somebody else high up in the organisational structure decides it should be created, the developer will usually create it for them.
Comments such as "You? Sometimes it seems like it." serve no purpose but to inflame the conversation and you know that very well.
You still have not responded to my earlier mail in this thread (the one that is CC'd to Reinhart Hahn).
Mark
No, it is NOT an acceptable name to use because other languages are also spoken widely in Surinam such as
Saramaccan,
Is an inland language not commonly used outside the jungle areas that Saramaccaners live in. Not a nationally widely spoken language
Aukan,
Aucaners same situation as Saramacaners.
Guyanese,
Definately not spoken in most of Surinam and as the name suggest it is not a Surinamese language.
Javanese,
Only spoken by people of Indonesian background and as the name suggest it is not a Surinamese language.
Chinese,
Only spoken by people of Chinese background and as the name suggest it is not a Surinamese language.
and Native American languages.
There are about 10.000 of those, they are not even acknowledged in the Surinamese flag with its five points which stand for the five most important ethniticities.
These are just as much "Surinamese" as Sranan.
No they are not. Sranan is what binds most of the population together with Dutch .... so what is next you are going to call Moroccan a Dutch language because people in the Netherlands speak Moroccan? Or Dutch a Thai language because there are Dutch people in Thailand? All of these languages are not Surinamese. They happen to be spoken in the country of Surinam yes. There is but one Surinamese and that is Sranan Tongo.
So while "Sranan" does indeed mean "Surinamese", the name "Sranan" is also used in English to distinguish it from other languages of Surinam.
Well I am not a native Oxford-English or American-English or whatever English speaker but I still have my doubts about that.
<>Well, you're one person, and "rusty I admit though" is not comforting at all. And what about Papiamento??
How comforting is it for me to see you requesting many languages you never spoke or heard of? If we go in that road of argumenting. My 4 years in Surinam are a lot more comforting. And no I do not speak Papiamentu.
Who decides if wikipedias get created? You? It sometimes seems like it.
You know very well it isn't me.
Precisely but your reactions on this list and elsewhere always show that you feel you should be the one who is deciding. 6 people support NDS-NL among which 2 native speakers. And you oppose and because you oppose you feel you can obstruct the whole progress because your "demands" weren't met. Frankly I am getting a littlebit tired of your "every language has to go by me" attitude. You are doing lots of good work in the languagefield. But destroying it by your behaviour.
It's the decision of the developers, ultimately, although if a board member or somebody else high up in the organisational structure decides it should be created, the developer will usually create it for them.
So maybe I should go to a board member instead of discussing with you here! Good alternative indeed. Thanks for your understanding.
Waerth/Walter
No, it is NOT an acceptable name to use because other languages are also spoken widely in Surinam such as
Saramaccan,
Is an inland language not commonly used outside the jungle areas that Saramaccaners live in. Not a nationally widely spoken language
5% of the population of Surinam
Aukan,
Aucaners same situation as Saramacaners.
3,5% of the population of Surinam.
Guyanese,
Definately not spoken in most of Surinam and as the name suggest it is not a Surinamese language.
11% of the population of Surinam. You're right that most of its speakers are in Guyana, but 50000 of them are in Surinam which is 11% of the population of the nation.
Javanese, Only spoken by people of Indonesian background and as the name suggest it is not a Surinamese language.
It has a longer history in Surinam than Arabic (not "Moroccan") does in the Netherlands. In fact, what is Sranan Tongo's history in Surinam? How long has it been spoken there? It was brought by "immigrants" just as much as Javanese was. And also, the Javanese spoken in Surinam is a distinct variety of Javanese, unique to Surinam, so it IS very much a Surinamese language.
It is spoken by 14% of the population, hardly a negligible figure.
Chinese, Only spoken by people of Chinese background and as the name suggest it is not a Surinamese language.
Chinese has nearly as long a history in Surinam as does Sranan Tongo. In addition to that, it's spoken by 3% of the population.
Hindustani
A form of Hindustani unique to Surinam, so it's a very much "Surinamese" language, and it's spoken by a whopping 35% of the population.
and Native American languages. There are about 10.000 of those, they are not even acknowledged in the Surinamese flag with its five points which stand for the five most important ethniticities.
3385 speakers total. In addition, the speakers of these languages have a much much much longer history in Surinam than any of the other people, they are more "Surinamese" than Indians, Chinese, Javanese, Blacks, Europeans, or mixed-race.
"Five most important ethnicities" is a judgement passed by the ruling elites. Do you think the Native Americans would agree that they're not important??
These are just as much "Surinamese" as Sranan. No they are not. Sranan is what binds most of the population together with Dutch .... so what is next you are going to call Moroccan a Dutch language because people in the Netherlands speak Moroccan? Or Dutch a Thai language because there are Dutch people in Thailand? All of these languages are not Surinamese. They happen to be spoken in the country of Surinam yes. There is but one Surinamese and that is Sranan Tongo.
This is a very glorified view of a language spoken by only 29% of the population. Hindustani is spoken by more people in Surinam, actually 35%, and Dutch is spoken by 46% of the population.
So while "Sranan" does indeed mean "Surinamese", the name "Sranan" is also used in English to distinguish it from other languages of Surinam.
Well I am not a native Oxford-English or American-English or whatever English speaker but I still have my doubts about that.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sranang_Tongo, http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=srn, both of which prefer the name "Sranang Tongo" or "Sranan".
<>Well, you're one person, and "rusty I admit though" is not comforting at all. And what about Papiamento?? How comforting is it for me to see you requesting many languages you never spoke or heard of? If we go in that road of argumenting. My 4 years in Surinam are a lot more comforting. And no I do not speak Papiamentu.
What the hell? How many languages have I requested in my ENTIRE LIFE??? Sicilian, Friulian, and Ligurian. THAT IS ALL. 3 languages. A whopping 3 languages. With Sicilian and Friulian, I had native speakers who expressed interest BEFORE the Wikipedias were created. Both were created, are now active, and scn.wiki has over 1000 articles.
Who decides if wikipedias get created? You? It sometimes seems like it.
You know very well it isn't me. Precisely but your reactions on this list and elsewhere always show that you feel you should be the one who is deciding. 6 people support NDS-NL among which 2 native speakers. And you oppose and because you oppose you feel you can obstruct the whole progress because your "demands" weren't met. Frankly I am getting a littlebit tired of your "every language has to go by me" attitude. You are doing lots of good work in the languagefield. But destroying it by your behaviour.
No, I don't feel that I should be the one deciding. But the process is one of community discussion, and any community member has the right to express their opinion. "every language has to go by me" attitude? What the hell??!? A language obviously doesn't need my blessing to get a Wikipedia created, and I don't think it should be the case, but I as everybody else in the community have a right to express my opinion on each language. So stuff it.
It's the decision of the developers, ultimately, although if a board member or somebody else high up in the organisational structure decides it should be created, the developer will usually create it for them.
So maybe I should go to a board member instead of discussing with you here! Good alternative indeed. Thanks for your understanding.
Asking a board member is not an "alternative" for community discussion. Community discussion, and resolution of outstanding issues, is nessecary before the creation of any new Wikipedia.
On the talkpage, Angela implied in one of her comments that as long as there is an opposing vote, there needs to be a community discussion to observe objections and explore solutions before it can be created.
I have a right to express my opinion on any language. So please, let me express my opinion.
Mark
Saramaccan,
Is an inland language not commonly used outside the jungle areas that Saramaccaners live in. Not a nationally widely spoken language
5% of the population of Surinam
Most of whom life in a small area ......... in the jungles.
Aukan,<>>> Aucaners same situation as Saramacaners.
3,5% of the population of Surinam.
Most of whom life in a small area ......... in the jungles.
Guyanese,
Definately not spoken in most of Surinam and as the name suggest it
is not a Surinamese language.
11% of the population of Surinam. You're right that most of its speakers are in Guyana, but 50000 of them are in Surinam which is 11% of the population of the nation.
50000? That is a large number which I very very much doubt!
Javanese,
Only spoken by people of Indonesian background and as the name suggest it is not a Surinamese language.
It has a longer history in Surinam than Arabic (not "Moroccan") does in the Netherlands. In fact, what is Sranan Tongo's history in Surinam? How long has it been spoken there? It was brought by "immigrants" just as much as Javanese was. And also, the Javanese spoken in Surinam is a distinct variety of Javanese, unique to Surinam, so it IS very much a Surinamese language.
The Javanese were one of the last groups to be brought to Surinam. The first group starting from the 17th century were African slaves. It was here that Sranan comes from. The Javanese didn't appear untill the end of the 19th century as contract labourers after the abollishment of slavery.
It is spoken by 14% of the population, hardly a negligible figure.
Yes and they also speak Sranan.
Chinese,
Only spoken by people of Chinese background and as the name suggest it is not a Surinamese language.
Chinese has nearly as long a history in Surinam as does Sranan Tongo. In addition to that, it's spoken by 3% of the population.
No it doesn't same story as Javanese. They didn't appear untill the end of the 19th century as contract labourers. While the slaves arrived in etc ........ you'll figure it.
Hindustani
A form of Hindustani unique to Surinam, so it's a very much "Surinamese" language, and it's spoken by a whopping 35% of the population.
Forgotten this in my initial assesment. It is not Hindustani. It is called Sarnami Hindustani. And this 35% of the population also speaks Sranan.
and Native American languages. There are about 10.000 of those, they are not even acknowledged in the Surinamese flag with its five points which stand for the five most important ethniticities.
3385 speakers total. In addition, the speakers of these languages have a much much much longer history in Surinam than any of the other people, they are more "Surinamese" than Indians, Chinese, Javanese, Blacks, Europeans, or mixed-race.
3385? did you count them?
"Five most important ethnicities" is a judgement passed by the ruling elites. Do you think the Native Americans would agree that they're not important??
I don't know. Never met them in my four years there as they all live in densely forested remote areas. So that figure could be plus or minus a lot. In my time in Surinam I remember 10.000 in my textbooks.
These are just as much "Surinamese" as Sranan. No they are not. Sranan is what binds most of the population together with Dutch .... so what is next you are going to call Moroccan a Dutch language because people in the Netherlands speak Moroccan? Or Dutch a Thai language because there are Dutch people in Thailand? All of these languages are not Surinamese. They happen to be spoken in the country of Surinam yes. There is but one Surinamese and that is Sranan Tongo.
This is a very glorified view of a language spoken by only 29% of the population. Hindustani is spoken by more people in Surinam, actually 35%, and Dutch is spoken by 46% of the population.
Much more than 29% of the population speaks Sranan. Everybody in Paramaribo (which makes for approx half the population) did (at least the ones I met) plus most Surinamese in the Netherlands do (considering more than 50% of Surinamese do not life in Surinam this is a big group).
So while "Sranan" does indeed mean "Surinamese", the name "Sranan" is also used in English to distinguish it from other languages of Surinam.
Well I am not a native Oxford-English or American-English or whatever English speaker but I still have my doubts about that.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sranang_Tongo, http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=srn, both of which prefer the name "Sranang Tongo" or "Sranan".
Well wikipedia is silly. In nl.wikipedia we call it Surinaams. Great argument ain't it?
ethnologue ...... well the more I look at it the more I am wondering about the way they get their data.
<>Well, you're one person, and "rusty I admit though" is not comforting at all. And what about Papiamento?? How comforting is it for me to see you requesting many languages you never spoke or heard of? If we go in that road of argumenting. My 4 years in Surinam are a lot more comforting. And no I do not speak Papiamentu.
What the hell? How many languages have I requested in my ENTIRE LIFE??? Sicilian, Friulian, and Ligurian. THAT IS ALL. 3 languages. A whopping 3 languages. With Sicilian and Friulian, I had native speakers who expressed interest BEFORE the Wikipedias were created. Both were created, are now active, and scn.wiki has over 1000 articles.
That is not the impression I got when I look at your activity on the meta page and when I looked at the developers reaction when you came in to ask for new wiki's to be created.
Who decides if wikipedias get created? You? It sometimes seems like it.
You know very well it isn't me. Precisely but your reactions on this list and elsewhere always show that you feel you should be the one who is deciding. 6 people support NDS-NL among which 2 native speakers. And you oppose and because you oppose you feel you can obstruct the whole progress because your "demands" weren't met. Frankly I am getting a littlebit tired of your "every language has to go by me" attitude. You are doing lots of good work in the languagefield. But destroying it by your behaviour.
No, I don't feel that I should be the one deciding. But the process is one of community discussion, and any community member has the right to express their opinion. "every language has to go by me" attitude? What the hell??!? A language obviously doesn't need my blessing to get a Wikipedia created, and I don't think it should be the case, but I as everybody else in the community have a right to express my opinion on each language. So stuff it.
Yes and you are expressing your opinion so vehemently and so dominantly that everybody seems to stay away from the meta languagepage and any other language related discussion because they do not want to have to deal with you it seems. On the stuffing it matter ....... I am actually eating at the moment ..... so yes I am stuffing it thanks ;)
It's the decision of the developers, ultimately, although if a board member or somebody else high up in the organisational structure decides it should be created, the developer will usually create it for them.
So maybe I should go to a board member instead of discussing with you here! Good alternative indeed. Thanks for your understanding.
Asking a board member is not an "alternative" for community discussion. Community discussion, and resolution of outstanding issues, is nessecary before the creation of any new Wikipedia.
On the talkpage, Angela implied in one of her comments that as long as there is an opposing vote, there needs to be a community discussion to observe objections and explore solutions before it can be created.
I have a right to express my opinion on any language. So please, let me express my opinion.
So that means that if one person is against something and a lot of people are in favour. That one person can stop the other persons from getting something? I am sure Angela never said that. It just doesn't sound like here.
Waerth/Walter
Saramaccan,
Is an inland language not commonly used outside the jungle areas that Saramaccaners live in. Not a nationally widely spoken language
5% of the population of Surinam
Most of whom life in a small area ......... in the jungles.
So what? It's still a language unique to Surinam.
Aukan,<>>> Aucaners same situation as Saramacaners.
3,5% of the population of Surinam.
Most of whom life in a small area ......... in the jungles.
Ditto.
Guyanese,
Definately not spoken in most of Surinam and as the name suggest it is
not a Surinamese language.
11% of the population of Surinam. You're right that most of its speakers are in Guyana, but 50000 of them are in Surinam which is 11% of the population of the nation.
50000? That is a large number which I very very much doubt!
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=gyn indicates that out of 700.000 speakers total, 50.000 are in Surinam. The Ethnologue's data on Surinam comes from their field office there (http://www.sil.org/americas/suriname/Index.htm), and real data, not some estimate made by a linguist in Texas.
Javanese,
Only spoken by people of Indonesian background and as the name suggest it is not a Surinamese language.
It has a longer history in Surinam than Arabic (not "Moroccan") does in the Netherlands. In fact, what is Sranan Tongo's history in Surinam? How long has it been spoken there? It was brought by "immigrants" just as much as Javanese was. And also, the Javanese spoken in Surinam is a distinct variety of Javanese, unique to Surinam, so it IS very much a Surinamese language.
The Javanese were one of the last groups to be brought to Surinam. The first group starting from the 17th century were African slaves. It was here that Sranan comes from. The Javanese didn't appear untill the end of the 19th century as contract labourers after the abollishment of slavery.
It is spoken by 14% of the population, hardly a negligible figure.
Yes and they also speak Sranan.
But Sranan is not their native language. The degree of fluency in Sranan is not constant, some Javanese speakers are very good in Sranan while others are not.
Chinese,
Only spoken by people of Chinese background and as the name suggest it is not a Surinamese language.
Chinese has nearly as long a history in Surinam as does Sranan Tongo. In addition to that, it's spoken by 3% of the population.
No it doesn't same story as Javanese. They didn't appear untill the end of the 19th century as contract labourers. While the slaves arrived in etc ........ you'll figure it.
Yes, but it's not at all comparable to the history of Arabic in the Netherlands. Obviously slaves arrived in Surinam before Javanese, by a couple of hundred years. But slaves did not speak Sranang at first, creolisation is a process which takes at least a generation. Also, Saramaccan and Aukan are of slave origin as well, yet you write them off as just being spoken in jungles.
Hindustani
A form of Hindustani unique to Surinam, so it's a very much "Surinamese" language, and it's spoken by a whopping 35% of the population.
Forgotten this in my initial assesment. It is not Hindustani. It is called Sarnami Hindustani. And this 35% of the population also speaks Sranan.
So Sarnami Hindustani is not Hindustani? "Sarnami" is a qualifier, "Sarnami Hindustani" is a distinct type of the more general term "Hindustani". Hindustani applies to Hindustani as spoken in India, Fiji, Trinidad, Surinam, and anywhere else. The thing is, language isolates. This means that you are less likely to come into contact with people who don't speak a language you speak, unless you seek them out. There are actually monolingual speakers of Sarnami Hindustani, and as I said with Javanese, there are as with any bilingual situation differing degrees of fluency -- some Hindustani speakers will be more fluent in Sranan than others, so you can't use a blanket statement to say "Oh they all speak Sranang".
and Native American languages. There are about 10.000 of those, they are not even acknowledged in the Surinamese flag with its five points which stand for the five most important ethniticities.
3385 speakers total. In addition, the speakers of these languages have a much much much longer history in Surinam than any of the other people, they are more "Surinamese" than Indians, Chinese, Javanese, Blacks, Europeans, or mixed-race.
3385? did you count them?
No, this is approximate (margin of error is small though, about 50~75). This is not a count of native americans in surinam, it is of people speaking Native American languages, which is a different number as many Native Americans are monolingual in Sranan, Saramaccan, or Aukan nowadays.
"Five most important ethnicities" is a judgement passed by the ruling elites. Do you think the Native Americans would agree that they're not important??
I don't know. Never met them in my four years there as they all live in densely forested remote areas. So that figure could be plus or minus a lot. In my time in Surinam I remember 10.000 in my textbooks.
These are just as much "Surinamese" as Sranan. No they are not. Sranan is what binds most of the population together with Dutch .... so what is next you are going to call Moroccan a Dutch language because people in the Netherlands speak Moroccan? Or Dutch a Thai language because there are Dutch people in Thailand? All of these languages are not Surinamese. They happen to be spoken in the country of Surinam yes. There is but one Surinamese and that is Sranan Tongo.
This is a very glorified view of a language spoken by only 29% of the population. Hindustani is spoken by more people in Surinam, actually 35%, and Dutch is spoken by 46% of the population.
Much more than 29% of the population speaks Sranan. Everybody in Paramaribo (which makes for approx half the population) did (at least the ones I met) plus most Surinamese in the Netherlands do (considering more than 50% of Surinamese do not life in Surinam this is a big group).
At least the ones you met. I live in a county where a huge percentage of the population speaks Spanish, and many of them are monolinguals. Yet, by the nature of linguistic communities, I do not encounter them in daily life so much. Thus, you, being only capable in Dutch, Sranan, and English (as far as languages of Surinam -- I don't know what other languages you might know), are among an extended network of people who are very capable in Sranan. People who are not very capable in Sranan are likely to form their own sociolinguistic communities that are isolated in many ways from the community of Sranan speakers.
And don't tell me I can't know because I haven't been to Surinam. This is just basic sociolinguistics, and it will be true in any situation where there are two language communities in close proximity.
So while "Sranan" does indeed mean "Surinamese", the name "Sranan" is also used in English to distinguish it from other languages of Surinam.
Well I am not a native Oxford-English or American-English or whatever English speaker but I still have my doubts about that.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sranang_Tongo, http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=srn, both of which prefer the name "Sranang Tongo" or "Sranan".
Well wikipedia is silly. In nl.wikipedia we call it Surinaams. Great argument ain't it?
I don't dispute that the Dutch normal name is Surinaams. But the English name is Sranang Tongo.
ethnologue ...... well the more I look at it the more I am wondering about the way they get their data.
Depending on the area of the world, they might get it from a trusted external source, or from a field office. In the case of Surinam, they get it from their Surinam field office, a group of people actually in surinam working on the languages of Surinam, who are definitely more qualified than you to make such judgements.
1 1
See this as well: A Google search for "Sranang Tongo" turns up 744 pages in English (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22sranang+tongo%22&hl=en&lr=lang_en&...), while a search for "Surinamese language" turns up only 74. http://www.google.com/search?q=%22surinamese+language%22&hl=en&lr=la...
Even the CIA factbook has "Sranang Tongo".
<>Well, you're one person, and "rusty I admit though" is not comforting at all. And what about Papiamento?? How comforting is it for me to see you requesting many languages you never spoke or heard of? If we go in that road of argumenting. My 4 years in Surinam are a lot more comforting. And no I do not speak Papiamentu.
What the hell? How many languages have I requested in my ENTIRE LIFE??? Sicilian, Friulian, and Ligurian. THAT IS ALL. 3 languages. A whopping 3 languages. With Sicilian and Friulian, I had native speakers who expressed interest BEFORE the Wikipedias were created. Both were created, are now active, and scn.wiki has over 1000 articles.
That is not the impression I got when I look at your activity on the meta page and when I looked at the developers reaction when you came in to ask for new wiki's to be created.
Activity on Requests for new languages is NOT the same as submitting a lot of requests. Most of my activity is response to others' requests. Scepticism on the part of Tim Starling is due to a previous extended flamewar about Friulian, a couple of years ago, which was primarily because even though I was working with a native speaker, they didn't post to the list.
Who decides if wikipedias get created? You? It sometimes seems like it.
You know very well it isn't me. Precisely but your reactions on this list and elsewhere always show that you feel you should be the one who is deciding. 6 people support NDS-NL among which 2 native speakers. And you oppose and because you oppose you feel you can obstruct the whole progress because your "demands" weren't met. Frankly I am getting a littlebit tired of your "every language has to go by me" attitude. You are doing lots of good work in the languagefield. But destroying it by your behaviour.
No, I don't feel that I should be the one deciding. But the process is one of community discussion, and any community member has the right to express their opinion. "every language has to go by me" attitude? What the hell??!? A language obviously doesn't need my blessing to get a Wikipedia created, and I don't think it should be the case, but I as everybody else in the community have a right to express my opinion on each language. So stuff it.
Yes and you are expressing your opinion so vehemently and so dominantly that everybody seems to stay away from the meta languagepage and any other language related discussion because they do not want to have to deal with you it seems. On the stuffing it matter ....... I am actually eating at the moment ..... so yes I am stuffing it thanks ;)
"Everybody seems to stay away"... is that why Scott Gall, Naziismisntcool, Haaflimbo, and so many other people post so often to the meta requests page? Only one of the requests on there (Ligurian) was filed by me, the rest were filed by others... that doesn't amount to little activity, there are like 30 or 40 requests.
It's the decision of the developers, ultimately, although if a board member or somebody else high up in the organisational structure decides it should be created, the developer will usually create it for them.
So maybe I should go to a board member instead of discussing with you here! Good alternative indeed. Thanks for your understanding.
Asking a board member is not an "alternative" for community discussion. Community discussion, and resolution of outstanding issues, is nessecary before the creation of any new Wikipedia.
On the talkpage, Angela implied in one of her comments that as long as there is an opposing vote, there needs to be a community discussion to observe objections and explore solutions before it can be created.
I have a right to express my opinion on any language. So please, let me express my opinion.
So that means that if one person is against something and a lot of people are in favour. That one person can stop the other persons from getting something? I am sure Angela never said that. It just doesn't sound like here.
No, it does not mean they can stop the group. But it means that instead of the Wikipedia being created right away, there needs to be an extended discussion of the issues that have been raised.
It's very arrogant of you to be so sure Angela never said that when you haven't read everything she's ever said.
Quote: "Requests that have significant objections to them, meaning they can not yet be created. No proposed code should be counted as an objection."
This means that any request with a significant objection cannot be created. A significant objection can be defined in different ways, my guess is one that gives a logical reason instead of like the one Scott Gall gave that says that Balinese people don't deserve a Wikipedia because of their treatment of Schapelle Corby.
Mark
Mark:
and Native American languages. There are about 10.000 of those, they are not even acknowledged in the Surinamese flag with its five points which stand for the five most important ethniticities.
3385 speakers total. In addition, the speakers of these languages have a much much much longer history in Surinam than any of the other people, they are more "Surinamese" than Indians, Chinese, Javanese, Blacks, Europeans, or mixed-race.
3385? did you count them?
No, this is approximate (margin of error is small though, about 50~75). This is not a count of native americans in surinam, it is of people speaking Native American languages, which is a different number as many Native Americans are monolingual in Sranan, Saramaccan, or Aukan nowadays.
There is not a single native american that will be monlingual in Saramaccan or Aucan or any of the other creole languages. These are languages of the bushnegroes (deregatory term I know but that is what the group is called) the tw groups absolutely do not mix. Also your certainty of the number is absurd.
Ethnologue may have a field office there but it doesn't mean theyare per definition right they can also be totally wrong when classifying languages.
I am not even going into the other parts of your mail. To waistfull of time.
Waerth/Walter
No, it is NOT an acceptable name to use because other languages are also spoken widely in Surinam such as
Saramaccan,
Is an inland language not commonly used outside the jungle areas that Saramaccaners live in. Not a nationally widely spoken language
Aukan,
Aucaners same situation as Saramacaners.
Guyanese,
Definately not spoken in most of Surinam and as the name suggest it is not a Surinamese language.
Javanese,
Only spoken by people of Indonesian background and as the name suggest it is not a Surinamese language.
Chinese,
Only spoken by people of Chinese background and as the name suggest it is not a Surinamese language.
and Native American languages.
There are about 10.000 of those, they are not even acknowledged in the Surinamese flag with its five points which stand for the five most important ethniticities.
These are just as much "Surinamese" as Sranan.
No they are not. Sranan is what binds most of the population together with Dutch .... so what is next you are going to call Moroccan a Dutch language because people in the Netherlands speak Moroccan? Or Dutch a Thai language because there are Dutch people in Thailand? All of these languages are not Surinamese. They happen to be spoken in the country of Surinam yes. There is but one Surinamese and that is Sranan Tongo.
So while "Sranan" does indeed mean "Surinamese", the name "Sranan" is also used in English to distinguish it from other languages of Surinam.
Well I am not a native Oxford-English or American-English or whatever English speaker but I still have my doubts about that.
I must say Walter is right in saying all of these languages do not qualify for the name "surinamese", and Sranan may. There is one other language that might, namely Sarnami (also meaning "Surinamese"), but that's an abbrevation of "Sarnami Hindi". However, we could better be as cautious as not to call Sranantongo Surinamese, for it could insult speakers of other languages. Just like "Filipino" or "Indonesian".
Wouter
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On Sat, 2005-06-25 at 20:25 -0700, Mark Williamson wrote:
Re Papiamentu and Sranan Tongo (NOT "Surinamese"), they have indeed gotten plenty of support votes but have any native speakers showed up yet? No. People have said "I have a friend..." or "My dad's business partner is a native speaker..." or things like that, but as of yet not a single native speaker has showed up to express their support for these Wikipedias. If they had, they would've been created with Cebuano, Kapampangan, Scots, and Võro.
Which is a pity. Would the Bambara and the Fulfulde Wikipedia have been created if I had asked for it?
Quite possibly not.
Mark
On 26/06/05, Guaka guaka@no-log.org wrote:
On Sat, 2005-06-25 at 20:25 -0700, Mark Williamson wrote:
Re Papiamentu and Sranan Tongo (NOT "Surinamese"), they have indeed gotten plenty of support votes but have any native speakers showed up yet? No. People have said "I have a friend..." or "My dad's business partner is a native speaker..." or things like that, but as of yet not a single native speaker has showed up to express their support for these Wikipedias. If they had, they would've been created with Cebuano, Kapampangan, Scots, and Võro.
Which is a pity. Would the Bambara and the Fulfulde Wikipedia have been created if I had asked for it?
As I noted before, it is a dialect continuum.
All of the continental West Germanic language variants form a dialect continuum, with the possible exception of the Frisian tongues.
Stellingwarfs and Middel-pommersch are surely not mutually intelligible, but Grunnegers and Oostfreesk very well should be.
Yes, so are Berlinic and High German. And East-Veluws and Dutch. But Grunnegers and Oostfreesk are not or barely mutually intelligible when written down, because of the different spellings.
You are foolishly dividing Platt by nations. This is illogical. If we had an Oostfreesk Wikipedia, Grunnegers-speakers would surely understand it and vice-versa, even though Grunnegers is in the Netherlands and Oostfreesk is mostly in Germany.
"Foolishly"... Mr. I-owe-all-the-world's-languages'-wisdom.... May I point at the difference in spelling once more? And don't you think that the bulk of the Dutch Low-Saxon dialects share some features most German dialects don't?
The problem of dialect continuum is a very difficult one.
Yes, so it can't be solved by one such disregarding message.
HOWEVER, given the community reaction to a request for a Baseldytsch Wikipedia, I think the same is logical for a request for a "Dutch Low Saxon" Wikipedia
Is it? Is Servien requesting a Wikipedia for just one town, or region? No, she obviously realises that, though the speaking communities hardly link dialects on any higher level than their own region (they will never say they speak Low Saxon, but always either the dialect of their own village or region, Twents, Sallands, Drents etc.), we should group some of them together. This is very different from what the proposer of the Baseldytsch Wikipedia did: he simply said: "I have no affinity with the other Alemannic dialects, so I want to open one for my dialect only".
-- your language may be different to whatever degree than what many people on X Wikipedia use, but there is no rule forbidding its use. There is no rule against writing pages and pages and pages of content on nds.wiki in Stellingwarfs or Achterhooks. When I suggested doing this, I got a cold response that Dutch Low Saxon and German Low Saxon aren't mutually intelligible. Before whinging to us about that, can you at least actually try to use your dialect on nds.wiki to prove to us that it really doesn't work?
Some users of nds: made clear that they only use one spelling: the Sass one. Dutch Low Saxon dialects are /never/ written in German spellings, except with some German-initiated projects.
Mark
Imo, the combined facts of mutual confusion in both speach and spelling makes this idea a valuable one.
Wouter
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So, are you saying that a man from Lars cannot understand a man from Gramsbergen??
Of course, this must be so, since the man from Lars speaks "German Low Saxon" and the man from Gramsbergen speaks "Dutch Low Saxon"... since of course languages always follow exactly political divisions.
Mark
On 26/06/05, Wouter Steenbeek musiqolog@hotmail.com wrote:
As I noted before, it is a dialect continuum.
All of the continental West Germanic language variants form a dialect continuum, with the possible exception of the Frisian tongues.
Stellingwarfs and Middel-pommersch are surely not mutually intelligible, but Grunnegers and Oostfreesk very well should be.
Yes, so are Berlinic and High German. And East-Veluws and Dutch. But Grunnegers and Oostfreesk are not or barely mutually intelligible when written down, because of the different spellings.
You are foolishly dividing Platt by nations. This is illogical. If we had an Oostfreesk Wikipedia, Grunnegers-speakers would surely understand it and vice-versa, even though Grunnegers is in the Netherlands and Oostfreesk is mostly in Germany.
"Foolishly"... Mr. I-owe-all-the-world's-languages'-wisdom.... May I point at the difference in spelling once more? And don't you think that the bulk of the Dutch Low-Saxon dialects share some features most German dialects don't?
The problem of dialect continuum is a very difficult one.
Yes, so it can't be solved by one such disregarding message.
HOWEVER, given the community reaction to a request for a Baseldytsch Wikipedia, I think the same is logical for a request for a "Dutch Low Saxon" Wikipedia
Is it? Is Servien requesting a Wikipedia for just one town, or region? No, she obviously realises that, though the speaking communities hardly link dialects on any higher level than their own region (they will never say they speak Low Saxon, but always either the dialect of their own village or region, Twents, Sallands, Drents etc.), we should group some of them together. This is very different from what the proposer of the Baseldytsch Wikipedia did: he simply said: "I have no affinity with the other Alemannic dialects, so I want to open one for my dialect only".
-- your language may be different to whatever degree than what many people on X Wikipedia use, but there is no rule forbidding its use. There is no rule against writing pages and pages and pages of content on nds.wiki in Stellingwarfs or Achterhooks. When I suggested doing this, I got a cold response that Dutch Low Saxon and German Low Saxon aren't mutually intelligible. Before whinging to us about that, can you at least actually try to use your dialect on nds.wiki to prove to us that it really doesn't work?
Some users of nds: made clear that they only use one spelling: the Sass one. Dutch Low Saxon dialects are /never/ written in German spellings, except with some German-initiated projects.
Mark
Imo, the combined facts of mutual confusion in both speach and spelling makes this idea a valuable one.
Wouter
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Mark Williamson wrote:
So, are you saying that a man from Lars cannot understand a man from Gramsbergen??
Of course, this must be so, since the man from Lars speaks "German Low Saxon" and the man from Gramsbergen speaks "Dutch Low Saxon"... since of course languages always follow exactly political divisions.
Mark we will not forbid a man from Lars to work on NDS-NL just like we wont forbid the man from Gramsbergen to work on NDS.
Only on NDS-NL he will have to use the Dutch variant On NDS he will have to use the SASS German variant
It is so bloody simple!
Waerth/Walter
That's exactly my point. These two men speak the same language -- they live 4km apart.
Yet you're telling them they don't. That's crazy.
With these two men, the only issue would be spelling, which is very easy to remedy as has been proven with zh, sr, ks, and (attempted) en.
Mark
On 26/06/05, Walter van Kalken walter@vankalken.net wrote:
Mark Williamson wrote:
So, are you saying that a man from Lars cannot understand a man from Gramsbergen??
Of course, this must be so, since the man from Lars speaks "German Low Saxon" and the man from Gramsbergen speaks "Dutch Low Saxon"... since of course languages always follow exactly political divisions.
Mark we will not forbid a man from Lars to work on NDS-NL just like we wont forbid the man from Gramsbergen to work on NDS.
Only on NDS-NL he will have to use the Dutch variant On NDS he will have to use the SASS German variant
It is so bloody simple!
Waerth/Walter
Mark Williamson wrote:
That's exactly my point. These two men speak the same language -- they live 4km apart.
Yet you're telling them they don't. That's crazy.
With these two men, the only issue would be spelling, which is very easy to remedy as has been proven with zh, sr, ks, and (attempted) en.
Here you prove yet again that you do not understand it. Spelling between a language based on Dutch and a language based on German differ for miles.
Walter/Waerth
No, YOU don't understand.
It's not two languages, one based on Dutch and one based on German; it's one language, just two different ways of spelling it.
As I said before these two villages are 4km apart, both men can understand each others' speech very clearly because it is IDENTICAL.
The only difference is the way they spell their languages, which can easily be converted.
Mark
On 26/06/05, Walter van Kalken walter@vankalken.net wrote:
Mark Williamson wrote:
That's exactly my point. These two men speak the same language -- they live 4km apart.
Yet you're telling them they don't. That's crazy.
With these two men, the only issue would be spelling, which is very easy to remedy as has been proven with zh, sr, ks, and (attempted) en.
Here you prove yet again that you do not understand it. Spelling between a language based on Dutch and a language based on German differ for miles.
Walter/Waerth
Mark Williamson wrote:
No, YOU don't understand.
It's not two languages, one based on Dutch and one based on German; it's one language, just two different ways of spelling it.
As I said before these two villages are 4km apart, both men can understand each others' speech very clearly because it is IDENTICAL.
The only difference is the way they spell their languages, which can easily be converted.
No it is not read what the others said. A personn from one side of the area it is spoken in cannot understand someone from the other side.
Walter/Waerth
So, are you saying that a man from Lars cannot understand a man from Gramsbergen??
Where are you getting this?! As I said before these men live 4km apart and speak the EXACT SAME LANGUAGE.
Mark
On 26/06/05, Walter van Kalken walter@vankalken.net wrote:
Mark Williamson wrote:
No, YOU don't understand.
It's not two languages, one based on Dutch and one based on German; it's one language, just two different ways of spelling it.
As I said before these two villages are 4km apart, both men can understand each others' speech very clearly because it is IDENTICAL.
The only difference is the way they spell their languages, which can easily be converted.
No it is not read what the others said. A personn from one side of the area it is spoken in cannot understand someone from the other side.
Walter/Waerth
Oh, by the way, nobody except YOU said that Larspeople and Gramsbergenpeople can't understand each other. YOU are the only one who said that.
Mark
On 26/06/05, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
So, are you saying that a man from Lars cannot understand a man from Gramsbergen??
Where are you getting this?! As I said before these men live 4km apart and speak the EXACT SAME LANGUAGE.
Mark
On 26/06/05, Walter van Kalken walter@vankalken.net wrote:
Mark Williamson wrote:
No, YOU don't understand.
It's not two languages, one based on Dutch and one based on German; it's one language, just two different ways of spelling it.
As I said before these two villages are 4km apart, both men can understand each others' speech very clearly because it is IDENTICAL.
The only difference is the way they spell their languages, which can easily be converted.
No it is not read what the others said. A personn from one side of the area it is spoken in cannot understand someone from the other side.
Walter/Waerth
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More importantly, since you seem to know Platt so well, why not check out http://s87257573.onlinehome.us/ks/index.php?title=Nds-test&variant=ks-de ??
Mark
On 26/06/05, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Oh, by the way, nobody except YOU said that Larspeople and Gramsbergenpeople can't understand each other. YOU are the only one who said that.
Mark
On 26/06/05, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
So, are you saying that a man from Lars cannot understand a man from Gramsbergen??
Where are you getting this?! As I said before these men live 4km apart and speak the EXACT SAME LANGUAGE.
Mark
On 26/06/05, Walter van Kalken walter@vankalken.net wrote:
Mark Williamson wrote:
No, YOU don't understand.
It's not two languages, one based on Dutch and one based on German; it's one language, just two different ways of spelling it.
As I said before these two villages are 4km apart, both men can understand each others' speech very clearly because it is IDENTICAL.
The only difference is the way they spell their languages, which can easily be converted.
No it is not read what the others said. A personn from one side of the area it is spoken in cannot understand someone from the other side.
Walter/Waerth
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That's exactly my point. These two men speak the same language -- they live 4km apart.
Yet you're telling them they don't. That's crazy.
O yeah? Where exactly does Waerth tell him they don't? The only thing he says is that he is in favour of two separate wikipedias!
W.
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Also, the difference in spelling is easily solved.
Differences, as far as I know:
(German spelling -> Dutch spelling) Final nn -> n s -> z i -> ie o -> ao au -> aau ei -> aai u -> oe/o f -> v ü -> u mm -> m a -> aa ee -> eei ou -> oe ä -> ae / e ö -> eu/ui ll -> l ou -> oou w -> v/w oo -> o gg -> g chC -> gC uhi -> oei
Spelling can easily be converted, see http://s87257573.onlinehome.us/ks/index.php?title=Nds-test&variant=ks-de (obviously there are some shortcomings, but these can be fixed with a little programming).
Mark
On 26/06/05, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
So, are you saying that a man from Lars cannot understand a man from Gramsbergen??
Of course, this must be so, since the man from Lars speaks "German Low Saxon" and the man from Gramsbergen speaks "Dutch Low Saxon"... since of course languages always follow exactly political divisions.
Mark
On 26/06/05, Wouter Steenbeek musiqolog@hotmail.com wrote:
As I noted before, it is a dialect continuum.
All of the continental West Germanic language variants form a dialect continuum, with the possible exception of the Frisian tongues.
Stellingwarfs and Middel-pommersch are surely not mutually intelligible, but Grunnegers and Oostfreesk very well should be.
Yes, so are Berlinic and High German. And East-Veluws and Dutch. But Grunnegers and Oostfreesk are not or barely mutually intelligible when written down, because of the different spellings.
You are foolishly dividing Platt by nations. This is illogical. If we had an Oostfreesk Wikipedia, Grunnegers-speakers would surely understand it and vice-versa, even though Grunnegers is in the Netherlands and Oostfreesk is mostly in Germany.
"Foolishly"... Mr. I-owe-all-the-world's-languages'-wisdom.... May I point at the difference in spelling once more? And don't you think that the bulk of the Dutch Low-Saxon dialects share some features most German dialects don't?
The problem of dialect continuum is a very difficult one.
Yes, so it can't be solved by one such disregarding message.
HOWEVER, given the community reaction to a request for a Baseldytsch Wikipedia, I think the same is logical for a request for a "Dutch Low Saxon" Wikipedia
Is it? Is Servien requesting a Wikipedia for just one town, or region? No, she obviously realises that, though the speaking communities hardly link dialects on any higher level than their own region (they will never say they speak Low Saxon, but always either the dialect of their own village or region, Twents, Sallands, Drents etc.), we should group some of them together. This is very different from what the proposer of the Baseldytsch Wikipedia did: he simply said: "I have no affinity with the other Alemannic dialects, so I want to open one for my dialect only".
-- your language may be different to whatever degree than what many people on X Wikipedia use, but there is no rule forbidding its use. There is no rule against writing pages and pages and pages of content on nds.wiki in Stellingwarfs or Achterhooks. When I suggested doing this, I got a cold response that Dutch Low Saxon and German Low Saxon aren't mutually intelligible. Before whinging to us about that, can you at least actually try to use your dialect on nds.wiki to prove to us that it really doesn't work?
Some users of nds: made clear that they only use one spelling: the Sass one. Dutch Low Saxon dialects are /never/ written in German spellings, except with some German-initiated projects.
Mark
Imo, the combined facts of mutual confusion in both speach and spelling makes this idea a valuable one.
Wouter
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* Vous allez enfin comprendre ce que l'on vous dit !
La Commission européenne a finalement tranché : après la monnaie unique,l'Union européenne va se doter d'une langue unique, a savoir...le français. Trois langues étaient en compétition :
* le français (parlé par le plus grand nombre de pays de l'Union) * l'allemand (parlé par le plus grand nombre d'habitants de l'Union) * l'anglais (langue internationale par excellence pour berner celui qui ne l'a parle pas)
L'anglais a vite été éliminé, pour deux raisons: l'anglais aurait été le cheval de Troie économique des Etats-Unis; et les Britanniques ont vu leur influence limitée au profit du couple franco-allemand en raison de leur légendaire réticence à s'impliquer dans la construction européenne.
Le choix a fait l'objet d'un compromis, les Allemands ayant obtenu que l'orthographe du français, particulièrement délicate à maîtriser, soit réformée, dans le cadre d'un plan de cinq ans, afin d'aboutir à l'eurofrancais.
* 1. La première année, tous les accents seront supprimés et les sons actuellement distribués entre "s", "z", "c", "k" et "q" seront répartis entre "z" et "k", ze ki permettra de zupprimer beaukoup de la konfuzion aktuelle. * 2. La deuzième annee, on remplazera le "ph" par "f", ze ki aura pour effet de rakourzir un mot komme "fotograf" de kelke vingt pour zent. * 3. La troizième annee, des modifikations plus draztikes zeront
pozzibles, notamment ne plus redoubler les lettres ki l'étaient: touz ont auzi admis le prinzip de la zuprezion des "e" muets, zourz eternel de konfuzion, en efet, tou kom d'autr letr muet.
* 4. La katriem ane, les gens zeront devenu rezeptif a de changements
majeurs, tel ke remplazer "g" zoi par "ch", zoi par "j", zoi par "k", zelon les ka, ze ki zimplifira davantach l'ekritur de touz.
* 5. Duran la zinkiem ane, le "b" zera remplaze par le "p" et le "v" zera lui auzi apandone, au profi du "f". Efidamen, on kagnera ainzi pluzieur touch zu le klafie. Un foi ze plan de zink an achefe, l'ortokraf zera defenu lochik, et le chen pouron ze komprendr et komunike. Le ref de l'Unite kulturel de l'Europ zera defenu realite !
Source : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia%3ALa_blague_du_jour#Une_langue_p...
Ze un bon blag Anter, me a-t-il la pertinenz a wikipedia-l? ;)
Mark
On 27/06/05, Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
* Vous allez enfin comprendre ce que l'on vous dit !La Commission européenne a finalement tranché : après la monnaie unique,l'Union européenne va se doter d'une langue unique, a savoir...le français. Trois langues étaient en compétition :
* le français (parlé par le plus grand nombre de pays de l'Union) * l'allemand (parlé par le plus grand nombre d'habitants de l'Union) * l'anglais (langue internationale par excellence pour berner celuiqui ne l'a parle pas)
L'anglais a vite été éliminé, pour deux raisons: l'anglais aurait été le cheval de Troie économique des Etats-Unis; et les Britanniques ont vu leur influence limitée au profit du couple franco-allemand en raison de leur légendaire réticence à s'impliquer dans la construction européenne.
Le choix a fait l'objet d'un compromis, les Allemands ayant obtenu que l'orthographe du français, particulièrement délicate à maîtriser, soit réformée, dans le cadre d'un plan de cinq ans, afin d'aboutir à l'eurofrancais.
* 1. La première année, tous les accents seront supprimés et lessons actuellement distribués entre "s", "z", "c", "k" et "q" seront répartis entre "z" et "k", ze ki permettra de zupprimer beaukoup de la konfuzion aktuelle. * 2. La deuzième annee, on remplazera le "ph" par "f", ze ki aura pour effet de rakourzir un mot komme "fotograf" de kelke vingt pour zent. * 3. La troizième annee, des modifikations plus draztikes zeront
pozzibles, notamment ne plus redoubler les lettres ki l'étaient: touz ont auzi admis le prinzip de la zuprezion des "e" muets, zourz eternel de konfuzion, en efet, tou kom d'autr letr muet.
* 4. La katriem ane, les gens zeront devenu rezeptif a de changementsmajeurs, tel ke remplazer "g" zoi par "ch", zoi par "j", zoi par "k", zelon les ka, ze ki zimplifira davantach l'ekritur de touz.
* 5. Duran la zinkiem ane, le "b" zera remplaze par le "p" et le"v" zera lui auzi apandone, au profi du "f". Efidamen, on kagnera ainzi pluzieur touch zu le klafie. Un foi ze plan de zink an achefe, l'ortokraf zera defenu lochik, et le chen pouron ze komprendr et komunike. Le ref de l'Unite kulturel de l'Europ zera defenu realite !
Source : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia%3ALa_blague_du_jour#Une_langue_p...
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
How easy, for someone who has not studied it! Do you notice the length of the list yourself? And though near-identical dialects in different spellings might be mutually understood, it becomes a different thing when you talk about divergent dialects. I say that the wide differences between several Low Saxon variants *in combination with* the differences in spelling make the possibility of a Wikipedia a valuable one.
W.
Also, the difference in spelling is easily solved.
Differences, as far as I know:
(German spelling -> Dutch spelling) Final nn -> n s -> z i -> ie o -> ao au -> aau ei -> aai u -> oe/o f -> v ü -> u mm -> m a -> aa ee -> eei ou -> oe ä -> ae / e ö -> eu/ui ll -> l ou -> oou w -> v/w oo -> o gg -> g chC -> gC uhi -> oei
Spelling can easily be converted, see http://s87257573.onlinehome.us/ks/index.php?title=Nds-test&variant=ks-de (obviously there are some shortcomings, but these can be fixed with a little programming).
Mark
On 26/06/05, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
So, are you saying that a man from Lars cannot understand a man from Gramsbergen??
Of course, this must be so, since the man from Lars speaks "German Low Saxon" and the man from Gramsbergen speaks "Dutch Low Saxon"... since of course languages always follow exactly political divisions.
Mark
On 26/06/05, Wouter Steenbeek musiqolog@hotmail.com wrote:
As I noted before, it is a dialect continuum.
All of the continental West Germanic language variants form a dialect continuum, with the possible exception of the Frisian tongues.
Stellingwarfs and Middel-pommersch are surely not mutually intelligible, but Grunnegers and Oostfreesk very well should be.
Yes, so are Berlinic and High German. And East-Veluws and Dutch. But Grunnegers and Oostfreesk are not or barely mutually intelligible when written down, because of the different spellings.
You are foolishly dividing Platt by nations. This is illogical. If we had an Oostfreesk Wikipedia, Grunnegers-speakers would surely understand it and vice-versa, even though Grunnegers is in the Netherlands and Oostfreesk is mostly in Germany.
"Foolishly"... Mr. I-owe-all-the-world's-languages'-wisdom.... May I
point
at the difference in spelling once more? And don't you think that the
bulk
of the Dutch Low-Saxon dialects share some features most German
dialects
don't?
The problem of dialect continuum is a very difficult one.
Yes, so it can't be solved by one such disregarding message.
HOWEVER, given the community reaction to a request for a Baseldytsch Wikipedia, I think the same is logical for a request for a "Dutch Low Saxon" Wikipedia
Is it? Is Servien requesting a Wikipedia for just one town, or region?
No,
she obviously realises that, though the speaking communities hardly
link
dialects on any higher level than their own region (they will never
say they
speak Low Saxon, but always either the dialect of their own village or region, Twents, Sallands, Drents etc.), we should group some of them together. This is very different from what the proposer of the
Baseldytsch
Wikipedia did: he simply said: "I have no affinity with the other
Alemannic
dialects, so I want to open one for my dialect only".
-- your language may be different to whatever degree than what many people on X Wikipedia use, but there is no rule forbidding its use. There is no rule against writing pages and pages and pages of content on nds.wiki in Stellingwarfs or Achterhooks.
When
I suggested doing this, I got a cold response that Dutch Low Saxon
and
German Low Saxon aren't mutually intelligible. Before whinging to us about that, can you at least actually try to use your dialect on nds.wiki to prove to us that it really doesn't work?
Some users of nds: made clear that they only use one spelling: the
Sass one.
Dutch Low Saxon dialects are /never/ written in German spellings,
except
with some German-initiated projects.
Mark
Imo, the combined facts of mutual confusion in both speach and
spelling
makes this idea a valuable one.
Wouter
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So, are you saying that a man from Lars cannot understand a man from Gramsbergen??
No, I am not! Please read my messages more closely. I stated that those dialects are not to be mutually understood /when written down/. The spellings used are incompatible.
Wouter
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So, are you saying that a man from Lars cannot understand a man from Gramsbergen??
No, I am not! Please read my messages more closely. I stated that those dialects are not to be mutually understood /when written down/. The spellings used are incompatible.
Nonono, this was in response to Walter.
How easy, for someone who has not studied it!
To find out about such a matter as orthographic variants does not require the study of a language for its own sake, but rather an analysis of interlinear texts in the same dialect using two different orthographies. This does not require even the most basic knowledge of the language.
Do you notice the length of the list yourself?
Yes. But:
Spelling can easily be converted, see http://s87257573.onlinehome.us/ks/index.php?title=Nds-test&variant=ks-de (obviously there are some shortcomings, but these can be fixed with a little programming).
You haven't commented on the test yet.
And though near-identical dialects in different spellings might be mutually understood, it becomes a different thing when you talk about divergent dialects. I say that the wide differences between several Low Saxon variants *in combination with* the differences in spelling make the possibility of a Wikipedia a valuable one.
Unfortunately it is not quite so clear-cut. As you can see by searching the internet for http://www.google.com/search?q=keunigriek , most people use a sort of mixture of the two spellings -- many of the pages that appear are from people on the German side of the border. (vs pure German "Königriek" or "Königrik")
"Dialect differences compounded with different spellings" doesn't make much sense since it's a dialect continuum. Spelling and dialect continuum are separate issues that should be treated separately. Dialect continuum is obviously a much more difficult issue to solve.
O yeah? Where exactly does Waerth tell him they don't? The only thing he says is that he is in favour of two separate wikipedias!
He states very clearly: "No it is not read what the others said. A personn from one side of the area it is spoken in cannot understand someone from the other side."
I responded to your private e-mail offlist, but there is a section I would like to respond to publicly.
There we go again.... Will you quit already? You just persist in your own opinion constantly (...)
So you are against free thinking? Instead of persisting in my opinion, I should just adopt yours? The whole purpose of differing opinions is for people to discuss them and see if they can't come up with something that will satisfy all parties and end up making the world a better place.
Mark
To find out about such a matter as orthographic variants does not require the study of a language for its own sake, but rather an analysis of interlinear texts in the same dialect using two different orthographies. This does not require even the most basic knowledge of the language.
Do you notice the length of the list yourself?
Yes. But:
Spelling can easily be converted, see
http://s87257573.onlinehome.us/ks/index.php?title=Nds-test&variant=ks-de
(obviously there are some shortcomings, but these can be fixed with a little programming).
You haven't commented on the test yet.
Sorry, but this on really sucks. Needs some more programming. I don't doubt you could fix this with a better converting program, but that's far from ideal: imo, if you get enough people behind this project, we don't need such a program at all.
Wouter
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Sure, it sucks.
Note that the second text should probably suck more, since it's already in Dutch orthography (if you select the other option at the top of the page, it'll convert it to German).
While a lot of people behind a project does inevitably make it more viable, I think that it's still best to try to avoid a division of labour whenever possible.
Mark
On 27/06/05, Wouter Steenbeek musiqolog@hotmail.com wrote:
To find out about such a matter as orthographic variants does not require the study of a language for its own sake, but rather an analysis of interlinear texts in the same dialect using two different orthographies. This does not require even the most basic knowledge of the language.
Do you notice the length of the list yourself?
Yes. But:
Spelling can easily be converted, see
http://s87257573.onlinehome.us/ks/index.php?title=Nds-test&variant=ks-de
(obviously there are some shortcomings, but these can be fixed with a little programming).
You haven't commented on the test yet.
Sorry, but this on really sucks. Needs some more programming. I don't doubt you could fix this with a better converting program, but that's far from ideal: imo, if you get enough people behind this project, we don't need such a program at all.
Wouter
Altijd in contact met de kleinkinderen: MSN Messenger http://messenger.msn.nl/
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Sure, it sucks.
Note that the second text should probably suck more, since it's already in Dutch orthography (if you select the other option at the top of the page, it'll convert it to German).
While a lot of people behind a project does inevitably make it more viable, I think that it's still best to try to avoid a division of labour whenever possible.
Mark
Well, I would agree with you if the Dutch and German variants were all more similar. If this separate wiki is created, efforts will only be duplicated when on both versions an article on the same topic has been written in the same main variant.
Wouter
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Well if this is the case why not split it up on "dialect" rather than country? We can have a Pommersch Wikipedia, an Oostfries Wikipedia, a Stellingwarves Wikipedia, a Gruningens Wikipedia...
Since there are actually differences from dialect to dialect, instead of a sudden change when you cross from Germany to the Netherlands or viceversa, it would be ignoring the problem of dialect differences to split it up based on countries.
Mark
On 28/06/05, Wouter Steenbeek musiqolog@hotmail.com wrote:
Sure, it sucks.
Note that the second text should probably suck more, since it's already in Dutch orthography (if you select the other option at the top of the page, it'll convert it to German).
While a lot of people behind a project does inevitably make it more viable, I think that it's still best to try to avoid a division of labour whenever possible.
Mark
Well, I would agree with you if the Dutch and German variants were all more similar. If this separate wiki is created, efforts will only be duplicated when on both versions an article on the same topic has been written in the same main variant.
Wouter
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From: Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com Well if this is the case why not split it up on "dialect" rather than country? We can have a Pommersch Wikipedia, an Oostfries Wikipedia, a Stellingwarves Wikipedia, a Gruningens Wikipedia...
Since there are actually differences from dialect to dialect, instead of a sudden change when you cross from Germany to the Netherlands or viceversa, it would be ignoring the problem of dialect differences to split it up based on countries.
Mark
That will cause more separate pedias than is desirable. Then you will have to split the nds:-wikipedia in several pieces. They will certainly grew very slowly.
Wouter
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Well if it is bad to split it up, why split it up at all?
And if we do split it up, why use an arbitrary border like the national border between the Netherlands and Germany??
If Ron is indeed right that nds.wiki is written in Missingsch this could be the heart of the problem. Missingsch will obviously be difficult for people in the Netherlands to comprehend, and technically Missingsch isn't even Low Saxon.
I think everybody will agree that we should always try to avoid splitting a Wikipedia whenever we can. You say that there are enough people that the new Wikipedia won't grow too slowly, but still it is a division of what could, with a little work, be a single united Wikipedia.
Mark
On 28/06/05, Wouter Steenbeek musiqolog@hotmail.com wrote:
From: Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com Well if this is the case why not split it up on "dialect" rather than country? We can have a Pommersch Wikipedia, an Oostfries Wikipedia, a Stellingwarves Wikipedia, a Gruningens Wikipedia...
Since there are actually differences from dialect to dialect, instead of a sudden change when you cross from Germany to the Netherlands or viceversa, it would be ignoring the problem of dialect differences to split it up based on countries.
Mark
That will cause more separate pedias than is desirable. Then you will have to split the nds:-wikipedia in several pieces. They will certainly grew very slowly.
Wouter
Direct antwoord op je vragen: gebruik MSN Messenger http://messenger.msn.nl/
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Mark Williamson wrote:
Well if this is the case why not split it up on "dialect" rather than country? We can have a Pommersch Wikipedia, an Oostfries Wikipedia, a Stellingwarves Wikipedia, a Gruningens Wikipedia...
Since there are actually differences from dialect to dialect, instead of a sudden change when you cross from Germany to the Netherlands or viceversa, it would be ignoring the problem of dialect differences to split it up based on countries.
Mark
Hoi, I have been wondering but why call it Stellingwarves it is Stellingwerfs. Even the ISO-639-3 code says so. Thanks, Gerard
"Stellingwarfs" is, iirc, the native name for the language. "Stellingwarves" is a typo.
Mark
On 28/06/05, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Mark Williamson wrote:
Well if this is the case why not split it up on "dialect" rather than country? We can have a Pommersch Wikipedia, an Oostfries Wikipedia, a Stellingwarves Wikipedia, a Gruningens Wikipedia...
Since there are actually differences from dialect to dialect, instead of a sudden change when you cross from Germany to the Netherlands or viceversa, it would be ignoring the problem of dialect differences to split it up based on countries.
Mark
Hoi, I have been wondering but why call it Stellingwarves it is Stellingwerfs. Even the ISO-639-3 code says so. Thanks, Gerard
Wouter Steenbeek wrote:
No, I am not! Please read my messages more closely. I stated that those dialects are not to be mutually understood /when written down/. The spellings used are incompatible.
Can't you see that discussing qualities is leading nowhere? Next thing you will be doing original research on the qualitative differences between dialects.
Instead I suggest that you discuss quantity. How much literature has been published in each dialect? Has any encyclopedia, or even dictionary, ever been printed in these dialects? Are people using it for everyday writing such as e-mails, newspapers, blogs, and corporate memos? Is there any useful basis (spelling reference, reading population, community of editors) at all for writing an encyclopedia? Would readers of the local newspaper use it as a fact reference, when they meet unknown concepts? Or would they just ignore it and go to the Dutch, English, or German Wikipedia?
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