Following on from Fae and myself meeting Robin Urquart of the National Archives of Scotland, I'm looking for people who may be interested in working on a WW-I related GLAM project.
The Archives have an extensive collection of letters that soldiers wrote to be delivered to family members in the event they were killed. Due to the accessibility requirements imposed on any body like the archives, there is a need to transcribe such documents before they can make them widely available.
Each letter generally has associated personal effects, such as tickets to the last theatre show someone saw before going to the front. So, they make for a beautiful piece of very personal history. With WW-I having "pals regiments" and the entire young male community from towns and villages serving - and dying - together, these can readily be focussed on small geographic areas. Perhaps even readily covering everyone listed on specific war memorials.
I'm open to any and all ideas on how we could work with the National Archives of Scotland on this; there's work for those who shun sunlight in transcribing handwritten letters (to meet their accessibility requirements), linking letters and effects to specific monuments, and anything else people might can come up with.
To me, it doesn't seem unreasonable to aim to use Commons, Wikisource, *and* Wikibooks. A QR code could be placed at a relevant war memorial, it points to a Wikibook collecting all the soldiers' letters, with scans and transcripts. If the relevant items in the National Archives are properly referenced there should be nothing to stop a local venue such as a church having an exhibition of the original letters and associated items like tickets to the theatre the night before someone died. Doing that in the 2014-2018 window is not going to be difficult.
Since I'm unemployed after Friday this week, I'd like to devote some time to getting the ball rolling on this. But, I've a hunch this is something that could be excellent for waking the wider public up to projects other than Wikipedia, recruiting local history buffs as new content contributors, and getting cultural institutions to 'think outside the box' around working with us.
Feel free to throw in suggestions and comments!
Brian McNeil.
On 25 October 2011 22:55, Brian McNeil brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.org wrote:
All good stuff, but...
A QR code could be placed at a relevant war memorial, it points to a Wikibook collecting all the soldiers' letters, with scans and transcripts.
I'd rather the QR code point (via QRpedia) to a Wikipedia article about the memorial, and have that point to relevant pages on commons/ Wikisource, and the book.
That's the sort of feedback I'm looking for, thanks.
I've no intention of vigorously arguing one way or the other, but I just feel it is inappropriate to point to a Wikipedia article that may never get much beyond stub status when orders of magnitude more content is elsewhere on WMF projects.
On Tue, 2011-10-25 at 23:07 +0100, Andy Mabbett wrote:
On 25 October 2011 22:55, Brian McNeil brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.org wrote:
All good stuff, but...
A QR code could be placed at a relevant war memorial, it points to a Wikibook collecting all the soldiers' letters, with scans and transcripts.
I'd rather the QR code point (via QRpedia) to a Wikipedia article about the memorial, and have that point to relevant pages on commons/ Wikisource, and the book.
Brian McNeil.
I was assuming that part of the project would involve making sure the article wasn't just a stub...
On 25 October 2011 23:32, Brian McNeil brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.org wrote:
That's the sort of feedback I'm looking for, thanks.
I've no intention of vigorously arguing one way or the other, but I just feel it is inappropriate to point to a Wikipedia article that may never get much beyond stub status when orders of magnitude more content is elsewhere on WMF projects.
On Tue, 2011-10-25 at 23:07 +0100, Andy Mabbett wrote:
On 25 October 2011 22:55, Brian McNeil brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.org wrote:
All good stuff, but...
A QR code could be placed at a relevant war memorial, it points to a Wikibook collecting all the soldiers' letters, with scans and transcripts.
I'd rather the QR code point (via QRpedia) to a Wikipedia article about the memorial, and have that point to relevant pages on commons/ Wikisource, and the book.
Brian McNeil.
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Brian_McNeil - Accredited Reporter. Facts don't cease to be facts, but news ceases to be news.
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
If the QR code is for use on mobile phones then we may not want much more than a stub either. What is the maximum article size that would work on the typical modern phone?
WereSpielChequers
On 25 October 2011 23:32, Brian McNeil brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.org wrote:
That's the sort of feedback I'm looking for, thanks.
I've no intention of vigorously arguing one way or the other, but I just feel it is inappropriate to point to a Wikipedia article that may never get much beyond stub status when orders of magnitude more content is elsewhere on WMF projects.
On Tue, 2011-10-25 at 23:07 +0100, Andy Mabbett wrote:
On 25 October 2011 22:55, Brian McNeil brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.org
wrote:
All good stuff, but...
A QR code could be placed at a relevant war memorial, it points to a Wikibook collecting all the soldiers' letters, with scans and
transcripts.
I'd rather the QR code point (via QRpedia) to a Wikipedia article about the memorial, and have that point to relevant pages on commons/ Wikisource, and the book.
Brian McNeil.
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Brian_McNeil - Accredited Reporter. Facts don't cease to be facts, but news ceases to be news.
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
Longer articles work fine on mobiles, because the lede is shown, followed by the other sections, collapsed, and which can be expanded individually if and when required by the user.
On 26 October 2011 11:10, WereSpielChequers werespielchequers@gmail.com wrote:
If the QR code is for use on mobile phones then we may not want much more than a stub either. What is the maximum article size that would work on the typical modern phone?
WereSpielChequers
On 25 October 2011 23:32, Brian McNeil brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.org wrote:
That's the sort of feedback I'm looking for, thanks.
I've no intention of vigorously arguing one way or the other, but I just feel it is inappropriate to point to a Wikipedia article that may never get much beyond stub status when orders of magnitude more content is elsewhere on WMF projects.
On Tue, 2011-10-25 at 23:07 +0100, Andy Mabbett wrote:
On 25 October 2011 22:55, Brian McNeil brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.org wrote:
All good stuff, but...
A QR code could be placed at a relevant war memorial, it points to a Wikibook collecting all the soldiers' letters, with scans and transcripts.
I'd rather the QR code point (via QRpedia) to a Wikipedia article about the memorial, and have that point to relevant pages on commons/ Wikisource, and the book.
Brian McNeil.
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Brian_McNeil - Accredited Reporter. Facts don't cease to be facts, but news ceases to be news.
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
On 26/10/2011 11:10, WereSpielChequers wrote:
If the QR code is for use on mobile phones then we may not want much more than a stub either. What is the maximum article size that would work on the typical modern phone?
WereSpielChequers
My experience is 1 cm at a distance of 10 cm.
That is off the top of my head.
Gordo
OOPS. I was thinking about the size of QR Codes.
Articles? Is there a limit?
Gordo
On 26/10/2011 12:11, Gordon Joly wrote:
On 26/10/2011 11:10, WereSpielChequers wrote:
If the QR code is for use on mobile phones then we may not want much more than a stub either. What is the maximum article size that would work on the typical modern phone?
WereSpielChequers
My experience is 1 cm at a distance of 10 cm.
That is off the top of my head.
Gordo
No real limit for article length on a modern smartphone, no.
Richard Symonds
On 26 Oct 2011, at 12:13, Gordon Joly gordon.joly@pobox.com wrote:
OOPS. I was thinking about the size of QR Codes.
Articles? Is there a limit?
Gordo
On 26/10/2011 12:11, Gordon Joly wrote:
On 26/10/2011 11:10, WereSpielChequers wrote:
If the QR code is for use on mobile phones then we may not want much more than a stub either. What is the maximum article size that would work on the typical modern phone?
WereSpielChequers
My experience is 1 cm at a distance of 10 cm.
That is off the top of my head.
Gordo
--
Gordon Joly gordon.joly@pobox.com http://www.joly.org.uk/ Don't Leave Space To The Professionals!
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
Size of Qr codes is governed by three things:
* Number of characters encoded * Amount of error correction * Expected distance from the user's device
The first two of those determine the number of squares making up the code, the latter the size of those squares
On 26 October 2011 12:13, Gordon Joly gordon.joly@pobox.com wrote:
OOPS. I was thinking about the size of QR Codes.
Articles? Is there a limit?
Gordo
On 26/10/2011 12:11, Gordon Joly wrote:
On 26/10/2011 11:10, WereSpielChequers wrote:
If the QR code is for use on mobile phones then we may not want much more than a stub either. What is the maximum article size that would work on the typical modern phone?
WereSpielChequers
My experience is 1 cm at a distance of 10 cm.
That is off the top of my head.
Gordo
On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 9:07 AM, Andy Mabbett andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote:
On 25 October 2011 22:55, Brian McNeil brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.org wrote:
All good stuff, but...
A QR code could be placed at a relevant war memorial, it points to a Wikibook collecting all the soldiers' letters, with scans and transcripts.
I'd rather the QR code point (via QRpedia) to a Wikipedia article about the memorial, and have that point to relevant pages on commons/ Wikisource, and the book.
It could be difficult writing Wikipedia articles about these soldiers. Wikisource has author pages for a lot of people who are not notable, dont have a bio because writing one is *hard*, etc.
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Category:Author_pages_not_linking_to_Wikipedi...
Wikisource Author pages provide sufficient space for small descriptions of the author, and Portal pages can be used to collect all related authors and works together.
On 26 October 2011 11:56, John Vandenberg jayvdb@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 9:07 AM, Andy Mabbett andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote:
I'd rather the QR code point (via QRpedia) to a Wikipedia article about the memorial, and have that point to relevant pages on commons/ Wikisource, and the book.
It could be difficult writing Wikipedia articles about these soldiers.
I referred to page about each /memorial/, not one for each soldier.
On 25 October 2011 23:07, Andy Mabbett andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote:
A QR code could be placed at a relevant war memorial, it points to a Wikibook collecting all the soldiers' letters, with scans and transcripts.
I'd rather the QR code point (via QRpedia) to a Wikipedia article about the memorial, and have that point to relevant pages on commons/ Wikisource, and the book.
I would have thought that very few war memorials would be notable enough to merit their own article on Wikipedia, and even if an article did exist, it would not be the place to put all the letters and ephemera associated with the individual soldiers listed on the memorial. In my opinion, Brian's suggestion of using Wikibooks to gather together all the scans, transcripts and other relevent information in a single place, and linking to it from a QR code is definitely the best solution.
I think that it is dubious whether a QRpedia code is warranted in this case, although potentially a Gaelic Wikibooks project (does not currently exist) could mirror the contents of the English Wikibooks; and for a similar project about Welsh soldiers there is both an English and a Welsh Wikibooks project that could both host the information.
Andrew [[User:BabelStone]]
On 26 October 2011 12:21, Andrew West andrewcwest@gmail.com wrote:
On 25 October 2011 23:07, Andy Mabbett andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote:
A QR code could be placed at a relevant war memorial, it points to a Wikibook collecting all the soldiers' letters, with scans and transcripts.
I'd rather the QR code point (via QRpedia) to a Wikipedia article about the memorial, and have that point to relevant pages on commons/ Wikisource, and the book.
I would have thought that very few war memorials would be notable enough to merit their own article on Wikipedia,
I think many are sufficiently notable; especially if we are able to source information about the people they commemorate.
and even if an article did exist, it would not be the place to put all the letters and ephemera associated with the individual soldiers listed on the memorial.
That's not what I'm suggesting; the Wikipedia article should link to the relevant commons/wiki-source pages/ categories (and a category per memorial would be appropriate in such cases)
In my opinion, Brian's suggestion of using Wikibooks to gather together all the scans, transcripts and other relevent information in a single place, and linking to it from a QR code is definitely the best solution.
I'm not sure that presenting a mobile device users, especially one with a casual interest, with a link to a Wikibook is the best approach.
I think that it is dubious whether a QRpedia code is warranted in this case, although potentially a Gaelic Wikibooks project (does not currently exist) could mirror the contents of the English Wikibooks; and for a similar project about Welsh soldiers there is both an English and a Welsh Wikibooks project that could both host the information.
You'd loose the language-detection facility offered by QRpedia.
Following on from Fae and myself meeting Robin Urquart of the National Archives of Scotland, I'm looking for people who may be interested in working on a WW-I related GLAM project.
This is very interesting stuff - thank you for taking it on. :-)
Here are a few thoughts...
I imagine both Commons and Wikisource would be keen to have the material available. However, Wikisource in particular doesn't have a community that will just get on with transcribing letters. So you'd need to be careful that NAS don't expect that they will get a whole load of transcribed letters for free.
I'm not quite sure what Wikibooks would think about this kind of thing - I think it's more aimed at textbooks than source material - but you might as well ask and see what you get.
Since Wikipedia is by far the biggest and best-used project, finding a Wikipedia link is probably quite valuable in terms of impact. Since 99.99% of the individual soldiers are non-notable, you could approach this by using materials for the war memorials as Andy suggests, or with reference to the individual battalions (we actually have poor coverage on Wikipedia of things like war-raise battalions), or perhaps the towns.
Due to the accessibility requirements imposed on any body like the archives, there is a need to transcribe such documents before they can make them widely available.
Obviously if they use Wikisource as a transcription tool, then they will need to make the documents widely available, and then transcribe them. :-)
It would be really interesting to see a GLAM initiative which used Wikisource as a transcription interface. There are plenty of non-Wiki GLAM initiatives which have custom-built transcription methods (e.g. Old Weather) and Wikisource has strengths but some disadvantages as well.
But, I've a hunch this is something that could be excellent for waking the wider public up to projects other than Wikipedia, recruiting local history buffs as new content contributors, and getting cultural institutions to 'think outside the box' around working with us.
Yes, this is why WWI is a big opportunity. :-D
Chris
It would be really interesting to see a GLAM initiative which used Wikisource as a transcription interface.
...
Chris
The best GLAM example of using Wikisource so far is Dominic's work with NARA in the USA - see http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource:WikiProject_NARA/Completed. I used the example of http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Objections_to_Woman_Suffrage_Answered at the all staff presentation at the British Library as an example where a formal archive's catalogue links directly back to Wikisource as an 'official' transcription.
I am hoping that NAS can use a similar approach.
Cheers, Fae
On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 22:55, Brian McNeil brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.org wrote:
A QR code could be placed at a relevant war memorial,
Is that such a good idea?
I like QR codes as much as the next person, but sticking them on war memorials may probing the limits of taste in Wikimedia outreach.
On 26 October 2011 17:55, Tom Morris tom@tommorris.org wrote:
On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 22:55, Brian McNeil brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.org wrote:
A QR code could be placed at a relevant war memorial,
Is that such a good idea?
I like QR codes as much as the next person, but sticking them on war memorials may probing the limits of taste in Wikimedia outreach.
The suggestion was "at" not "on" - it should be possible to place a QR Code on nearby information point, for example, not on the memorial itself.
On Wed, 2011-10-26 at 17:55 +0100, Tom Morris wrote:
On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 22:55, Brian McNeil brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.org wrote:
A QR code could be placed at a relevant war memorial,
Is that such a good idea?
I like QR codes as much as the next person, but sticking them on war memorials may probing the limits of taste in Wikimedia outreach.
Believe it or not, that's why I was careful to say *at*, as-opposed to *on*. I know I've a reputation for being crass, insensitive, and bloody-minded; but, "vandalising" war memorials is something I'd not contemplate. :P
I'm glad to see others chime in regarding the potential for certain memorials being non-notable, or having insufficient reliable sources to get beyond stub status. The point here is not to drive traffic to Wikipedia, but to allow people to quickly access very personal documents.
Even just doing everyone listed on a single monument will be notable enough to garner press coverage. From that, it will - hopefully - be possible to encourage other non-wiki people to get involved and carry out the same work for their local memorials.
I've no idea how far this should be pushed, or how far it might go if it gains traction. The fallen of WW-I were not repatriated; I lived in Flanders for over ten years, I've seen the rows, and rows of white crosses in war cemeteries over there. I know a very large number of people visit these sites every year. If anyone can suggest a way to tastefully cross-link memorials in the UK listing those who died with the actual graves, that would seem the next logical step here.
Brian McNeil.
On 26 October 2011 22:37, Brian McNeil brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.org wrote:
I'm glad to see others chime in regarding the potential for certain memorials being non-notable, or having insufficient reliable sources to get beyond stub status. The point here is not to drive traffic to Wikipedia, but to allow people to quickly access very personal documents.
To my mind, "List of war memorials in Scotland" etc. would be the best way to proceed wrt Wikipedia, with each entry linking to another wikimedia project or projects for whatever detailed information is available such as scans, transcriptions and lists of names. There is quite a nice list-article for Canadian war memorials at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_war_memorials.
Andrew
On Thu, 2011-10-27 at 00:11 +0100, Andrew West wrote:
On 26 October 2011 22:37, Brian McNeil brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.org wrote:
I'm glad to see others chime in regarding the potential for certain memorials being non-notable, or having insufficient reliable sources to get beyond stub status. The point here is not to drive traffic to Wikipedia, but to allow people to quickly access very personal documents.
To my mind, "List of war memorials in Scotland" etc. would be the best way to proceed wrt Wikipedia, with each entry linking to another wikimedia project or projects for whatever detailed information is available such as scans, transcriptions and lists of names. There is quite a nice list-article for Canadian war memorials at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_war_memorials.
I might upset a few people here, but,... Why does this even have to in any way link to Wikipedia?
Just because we've a pet 800lb gorilla is no reason to point people at it repeatedly.
List of monuments->Monument Foo->Individual should be the obscure route to content. Link/Reference (eg QR code)->List of individuals->Content related to an individual can easily be done without ever touching Wikipedia.
For many GLAM partners, Wikipedia is not going to be the 'ideal' first port of call. So, why try and make it such?
Brian McNeil.
On 27 October 2011 00:44, Brian McNeil brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.org wrote:
I might upset a few people here, but,... Why does this even have to in any way link to Wikipedia?
[else where you also said "The point here is not to drive traffic to Wikipedia"]
I'm not concerned with "driving traffic to Wikipedia" - it seems to be doing OK, in that regard, without our help.
I think a Wikipedia page is the most user-friendly "front end" to the rest of the data, and is also likely to satisfy the curiosity of a more casual reader, who wants to know what the memorial is (name, architect, date of construction, etc.), without going further into the personal details of those memorialised, which will nonetheless be thus made available to those who do wish to see it.
QRpedia and interwiki links mean we can also serve basic information to people who cannot read English (or Scots/ Welsh).
For many GLAM partners, Wikipedia is not going to be the 'ideal' first port of call.
{{CN}} ;-)
With regard to notability, all war monuments are landmarks potentially worthy of a Wikipedia article. Due to how difficult it is to source the material, I would encourage any group or individual to consider extending (or more likely creating) the article for the local town or village that created the monument, though some monuments are found at cross-roads or at scenic positions (I'm thinking of the large memorial I stopped to photograph in North Uist which only has sheep as neighbours but is still the location for a well attended annual memorial ceremony and is the opportunity to remember those more recently killed in war action).
The cross-links to information about regiments, battles and individual acts of bravery that were recognized with notable medals all add value to Wikipedia and though the information may start with a photo on Wikimedia Commons or a single document on Wikisource, I would strongly encourage volunteers to help expand the quality of Wikipedia's coverage of these areas of local interest. It strikes me as the sort of improvement that local schools might be excellent at helping with.
Cheers, Fae
I might upset a few people here, but,... Why does this even have to in any way link to Wikipedia?
Just because we've a pet 800lb gorilla is no reason to point people at it repeatedly.
Because Wikipedia has the biggest audience. Most partners care about getting audience and exposure for their material. Our best offering there is Wikipedia.
It's the only Wikimedia project which is completely, unequivocally better than its competitors.
Not that this means everything has to have a Wikipedia angle, but it is an important point. :-)
Chris
On 27 Oct 2011, at 10:59, Chris Keating chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com wrote:
I might upset a few people here, but,... Why does this even have to in any way link to Wikipedia?
Just because we've a pet 800lb gorilla is no reason to point people at it repeatedly.
Because Wikipedia has the biggest audience. Most partners care about getting audience and exposure for their material. Our best offering there is Wikipedia.
It's the only Wikimedia project which is completely, unequivocally better than its competitors.
Not that this means everything has to have a Wikipedia angle, but it is an important point. :-)
I dunno. Wikiquote is pretty cool: it's like other quote sites but with some actual rudimentary accuracy checking. ;-)
This may be relevant:
http://m.spiegel.de/international/europe/a-794103.html
' WWI Grave Find Tells Story Germans Want To Forget'
On 25 October 2011 22:55, Brian McNeil brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.org wrote:
Following on from Fae and myself meeting Robin Urquart of the National Archives of Scotland, I'm looking for people who may be interested in working on a WW-I related GLAM project.
This is also pertinent:
On 1 November 2011 15:12, Andy Mabbett andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote:
On 25 October 2011 22:55, Brian McNeil brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.org wrote:
Following on from Fae and myself meeting Robin Urquart of the National Archives of Scotland, I'm looking for people who may be interested in working on a WW-I related GLAM project.
This is also pertinent:
As is:
The UK National Inventory of War Memorials, based at the Imperial War Museum …creating a comprehensive archive of all war memorials in the United Kingdom. They have records for over 60,000 of the estimated 100,000 war memorials in the UK but many remain to be recorded. http://www.ukniwm.org.uk/
On a more mundane point we have been asked to supply Wikisource via QRpedia
On 01/11/2011, Andy Mabbett andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote:
On 1 November 2011 15:12, Andy Mabbett andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote:
On 25 October 2011 22:55, Brian McNeil brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.org wrote:
Following on from Fae and myself meeting Robin Urquart of the National Archives of Scotland, I'm looking for people who may be interested in working on a WW-I related GLAM project.
This is also pertinent:
As is:
The UK National Inventory of War Memorials, based at the Imperial War Museum …creating a comprehensive archive of all war memorials in the United Kingdom. They have records for over 60,000 of the estimated 100,000 war memorials in the UK but many remain to be recorded. http://www.ukniwm.org.uk/
-- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 7:02 AM, Roger Bamkin victuallers@gmail.com wrote:
On a more mundane point we have been asked to supply Wikisource via QRpedia
mundane!?! .. very cool! ;-)
wikimediauk-l@lists.wikimedia.org