Hi all,
While we are all working on reaching out to more and more people to join wiki community in India, I see an area we need to focus before it becomes a problem.Few days back there was a thread posting a link to article[1] in which a user claimed "Foreigners deleting Wikipedias India content". In the Chennai meetup that happened last week too, there was a person claimed new users are being BITE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:BITEN by admins among other things which indicated his lack of understanding in wiki policies / guidelines. I just came across another ANI incident[2] involving an Indian editor and 3 admins. Without going to details / commenting on it, am quoting part of this comment about[3] "cultural gap that exists from being an Indian editor editing from India in an English Wikipedia dominated by Anglophone people. He needs to know when to persist, when to back off and needs to learn the general etiquette of the Western world"
There are few common patterns / misconceptions among a set of new Indian editors most of whom never come back to wikipedia. 1. Admins have superpowers, remove content and BITE. 2. Lack of understanding of wiki policies. Neutrality and Copyrights seem to be problem areas.POV Pushing happens quite a lot and there is general lack of awareness about copyright. 3. Then this "cultural" differences.
While the examples are from English wikipedia, these issues might be common to Indic as well as they grow.
If we could address these, we could avoid newcomers leaving wikipedia.
[1] http://www.ciol.com/News/News/News-Reports/Are-foreigners-deleting-Wikipedia... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Inciden... [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_notice...
Regards Srikanth.L Google Profile http://j.mp/SrikanthL
Interesting point Srikanth, we can address part of the issue.
I propose something like "Don't bite the newcomers" page, pref. located on Meta where new Wikimedians especially the ones from India can ask question to more experienced editors. It would be along the lines of Admin noticeboard, RfC page in terms of structure but any experienced editor would be able to answer a newcomers question. They can watch their edit history and even promote our "adopt a user" feature by experienced editors.
We can announce this page on the India Mailing list, newcomers at wiki-meetups, regularly for any new comers. For a centralized location I would suggest locating it on Meta considering the experienced user base and the multilingual community there. Any thoughts?
Regards
Salmaan
On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 8:20 PM, Srikanth Lakshmanan srik.lak@gmail.comwrote:
Hi all,
While we are all working on reaching out to more and more people to join wiki community in India, I see an area we need to focus before it becomes a problem.Few days back there was a thread posting a link to article[1] in which a user claimed "Foreigners deleting Wikipedias India content". In the Chennai meetup that happened last week too, there was a person claimed new users are being BITE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:BITEN by admins among other things which indicated his lack of understanding in wiki policies / guidelines. I just came across another ANI incident[2] involving an Indian editor and 3 admins. Without going to details / commenting on it, am quoting part of this comment about[3] "cultural gap that exists from being an Indian editor editing from India in an English Wikipedia dominated by Anglophone people. He needs to know when to persist, when to back off and needs to learn the general etiquette of the Western world"
There are few common patterns / misconceptions among a set of new Indian editors most of whom never come back to wikipedia.
- Admins have superpowers, remove content and BITE.
- Lack of understanding of wiki policies. Neutrality and Copyrights seem
to be problem areas.POV Pushing happens quite a lot and there is general lack of awareness about copyright. 3. Then this "cultural" differences.
While the examples are from English wikipedia, these issues might be common to Indic as well as they grow.
If we could address these, we could avoid newcomers leaving wikipedia.
[1] http://www.ciol.com/News/News/News-Reports/Are-foreigners-deleting-Wikipedia... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Inciden... [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_notice...
Regards Srikanth.L Google Profile http://j.mp/SrikanthL
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 11:48 PM, theo10011 de10011@gmail.com wrote:
Interesting point Srikanth, we can address part of the issue. I propose something like "Don't bite the newcomers" page, pref. located on Meta where new Wikimedians especially the ones from India can ask question to more experienced editors. It would be along the lines of Admin noticeboard, RfC page in terms of structure but any experienced editor would be able to answer a newcomers question. They can watch their edit history and even promote our "adopt a user" feature by experienced editors. We can announce this page on the India Mailing list, newcomers at wiki-meetups, regularly for any new comers. For a centralized location I would suggest locating it on Meta considering the experienced user base and the multilingual community there. Any thoughts?
I wouldn't attribute this to cultural differences. Let's be clear on something, it's not only users from India who complain about rogue admins and editors.
[[w:en:WP:HD]] is still the best resource for new users to seek advice.
Creating a redundant page on meta serves no purpose. The India noticeboard is a responsive place to seek advice if the user finds himself/herself embroiled in a dispute over India-related subjects.
I do understand that a significant number of new pages patrollers, recent changes patrollers and some administrators are impatient with new users and that leads to unnecessary escalation of conflict. However, the underlying issue is much deeper and not exclusive for editors from India.
anirudh
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
I beg to differ Anirudh, the issue is that the newbies don't know of WP:HD or any other place was the reason I suggested the page. By the same logic, If the newbies could ask their question on Help desk, they could also look up the same guidelines and the Noticeboards to see what they did wrong and complain appropriately, which would make the entire process redundant. What I suggested was a centralized page where all the links that might be helpful to newbies would be collected together, where they can ask senior editors questions directly or look into issues for them.
I suggested Meta for two reason- one to keep it off the English wiki since there is no shortage of similar places, and second most of the users there are very well-versed in policies and guidelines more than local wikis especially Indian Language Wikis, something of an "outside context" might be useful to newcomers.
I agree with Srikanth, there is a cultural difference, besides a different language there is rather large repository of policies of guidelines that might seem daunting to newcomers, we want to provide access as easily as possible. We have met many wikimedians who want to get involved in the movement on meetups, mailing lists - this page would act as a first step page for all of them, we can refer them to it to read up and ask questions if they have issues. What I would like to see is, something similar to adopt a user program so that experienced editors could adopt and guide new comers.
Regards
Salmaan
On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 1:34 AM, Anirudh Bhati anirudhsbh@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 11:48 PM, theo10011 de10011@gmail.com wrote:
Interesting point Srikanth, we can address part of the issue. I propose something like "Don't bite the newcomers" page, pref. located
on
Meta where new Wikimedians especially the ones from India can ask
question
to more experienced editors. It would be along the lines of Admin noticeboard, RfC page in terms of structure but any experienced editor
would
be able to answer a newcomers question. They can watch their edit history and even promote our "adopt a user" feature by experienced editors. We can announce this page on the India Mailing list, newcomers at wiki-meetups, regularly for any new comers. For a centralized location I would suggest locating it on Meta considering the experienced user base
and
the multilingual community there. Any thoughts?
I wouldn't attribute this to cultural differences. Let's be clear on something, it's not only users from India who complain about rogue admins and editors.
[[w:en:WP:HD]] is still the best resource for new users to seek advice.
Creating a redundant page on meta serves no purpose. The India noticeboard is a responsive place to seek advice if the user finds himself/herself embroiled in a dispute over India-related subjects.
I do understand that a significant number of new pages patrollers, recent changes patrollers and some administrators are impatient with new users and that leads to unnecessary escalation of conflict. However, the underlying issue is much deeper and not exclusive for editors from India.
anirudh
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
One point that I wanted to mention Anirudh,
"The India noticeboard is a responsive place to seek advice if the user finds himself/herself embroiled in a dispute over India-related subjects."
We have a India Noticeboard??? on en.wp?
I don't know anything about it, how can you expect people joining in the movement now to find it for themselves. How would they even know what the noticeboard is for in the Wiki context. My suggestion related to easing them into it.
Regards
On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 1:34 AM, Anirudh Bhati anirudhsbh@gmail.comwrote:
On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 11:48 PM, theo10011 de10011@gmail.com wrote:
Interesting point Srikanth, we can address part of the issue. I propose something like "Don't bite the newcomers" page, pref. located
on
Meta where new Wikimedians especially the ones from India can ask
question
to more experienced editors. It would be along the lines of Admin noticeboard, RfC page in terms of structure but any experienced editor
would
be able to answer a newcomers question. They can watch their edit
history
and even promote our "adopt a user" feature by experienced editors. We can announce this page on the India Mailing list, newcomers at wiki-meetups, regularly for any new comers. For a centralized location I would suggest locating it on Meta considering the experienced user base
and
the multilingual community there. Any thoughts?
I wouldn't attribute this to cultural differences. Let's be clear on something, it's not only users from India who complain about rogue admins and editors.
[[w:en:WP:HD]] is still the best resource for new users to seek advice.
Creating a redundant page on meta serves no purpose. The India noticeboard is a responsive place to seek advice if the user finds himself/herself embroiled in a dispute over India-related subjects.
I do understand that a significant number of new pages patrollers, recent changes patrollers and some administrators are impatient with new users and that leads to unnecessary escalation of conflict. However, the underlying issue is much deeper and not exclusive for editors from India.
anirudh
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 2:03 AM, theo10011 de10011@gmail.com wrote:
I beg to differ Anirudh, the issue is that the newbies don't know of WP:HD or any other place was the reason I suggested the page.
Finding out about the help desk or simply asking for help is much easier for a new user than looking for ideas cross-wiki. A simple welcome template contains instructions to ask for help without even having to move from one's talk page.[1]
By the same logic, If the newbies could ask their question on Help desk, they could also look up the same guidelines and the Noticeboards to see what they did wrong and complain appropriately, which would make the entire process redundant.
Newbies aren't expected to know each and every rule from the day they join Wikipedia, you have more experienced users asking them to IAR. IAR doesn't mean a free license to do whatever you want, but to learn as you go.[2]
What would make the entire process redundant are administrators who would be willing to give appropriate amount of attention to each and every contentious issue (esp. those which involve using the blocking tool). Many new users complain of over-zealousness on the part of long-term contributors, I can empathize with their position but cannot completely shift the blame on to the janitors.
As the encyclopedia continues to grow so does the amount of data that is churned on the project. Administrators continually end up deleting pages within moments of their creation, and get defensive when questioned. They block vandals without appropriate warnings and most of the time such blocks go unchallenged because of the nature of the edits (overt vandalism). But sometimes, as it happens with the huge amount of backlog, an administrator may perceive tenacious editing as disruption and vandalism, and when this happens our problems begin.
Please go through the archives of the administrators' noticeboard and you will find such issues have been discussed over and over again with no conclusive solution to the problem. Conflicts have been escalated to the point where the Arbitration Committee has had to issue sanctions on old hands resulting in burn out and retirement from the project. And you know what... I'd rather stand by a trusty old admin in the lieu of hundreds of whiny newbies who didn't have anything constructive to contribute anyway.
I understand that this may not be the optimal solution, but it's the one that has worked for us for years.
What I suggested was a centralized page where all the links that might be helpful to newbies would be collected together, where they can ask senior editors questions directly or look into issues for them. I suggested Meta for two reason- one to keep it off the English wiki since there is no shortage of similar places, and second most of the users there are very well-versed in policies and guidelines more than local wikis especially Indian Language Wikis, something of an "outside context" might be useful to newcomers.
Please follow through with your project but I don't see much use for it from an English Wikipedia standpoint. English Wikipedia had and still has the best available resources to assist new users and help them cope with conflicts.
I agree with Srikanth, there is a cultural difference, besides a different language there is rather large repository of policies of guidelines that might seem daunting to newcomers, we want to provide access as easily as possible. We have met many wikimedians who want to get involved in the movement on meetups, mailing lists - this page would act as a first step page for all of them, we can refer them to it to read up and ask questions if they have issues. What I would like to see is, something similar to adopt a user program so that experienced editors could adopt and guide new comers. Regards
I am all for courteous dealings with new users, but no amount of cajoling usually placates someone who has decided to game the system.[3]
Please explain to me how cultural differences result in a breakdown of communication to the extent that a user gets blocked for disruption? In the immediate case, it appears to me that Yogesh Khandke handled himself quite well (and has sufficiently proven that the blocks were made out of process, except that he didn't' challenge the block earlier). I don't see how an Indian community-run service for new users would have helped resolve the manner more equitably than a single old-hand noticing an unjustified block.
I have no issues with community building exercises, but most of them turn into cliques that outgrow their intended use.[4]
Salmaan
[1] {{helpme}} on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Welcome ([[Template:Welcome]]) [2] #5 on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Five_pillars ([[Wikipedia:Five pillars]] - IAR. [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:GAME ([[WP:GAME]]) [4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Esperanza
anirudh
On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 1:34 AM, Anirudh Bhati anirudhsbh@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 11:48 PM, theo10011 de10011@gmail.com wrote:
Interesting point Srikanth, we can address part of the issue. I propose something like "Don't bite the newcomers" page, pref. located on Meta where new Wikimedians especially the ones from India can ask question to more experienced editors. It would be along the lines of Admin noticeboard, RfC page in terms of structure but any experienced editor would be able to answer a newcomers question. They can watch their edit history and even promote our "adopt a user" feature by experienced editors. We can announce this page on the India Mailing list, newcomers at wiki-meetups, regularly for any new comers. For a centralized location I would suggest locating it on Meta considering the experienced user base and the multilingual community there. Any thoughts?
I wouldn't attribute this to cultural differences. Let's be clear on something, it's not only users from India who complain about rogue admins and editors.
[[w:en:WP:HD]] is still the best resource for new users to seek advice.
Creating a redundant page on meta serves no purpose. The India noticeboard is a responsive place to seek advice if the user finds himself/herself embroiled in a dispute over India-related subjects.
I do understand that a significant number of new pages patrollers, recent changes patrollers and some administrators are impatient with new users and that leads to unnecessary escalation of conflict. However, the underlying issue is much deeper and not exclusive for editors from India.
anirudh
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
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You are making an assumption that the strict editorial control and over-zealous administrative actions are a problem endemic to only English Wikipedia, the scope of my suggestion were towards all the Indian Language wikis, in addition to the English wiki. Considering that this thread is on Wikimediaindia, my context was limited to Indian Editors.
Editor retention has been one of the large problems that all the projects witness, there have been multiple studies on how to address that very issue. Going forward, India and the local language projects are a high priority according to the Strategic plan [1], what Srikanth brought up is a fundamental problem for retention, not only according to the example he cited but from talking to new people at our meetups, they described a complete lack of awareness about why their first entries were deleted, most of them never followed up afterwards.
Again, I am bringing up Meta here because you assumed that the scope of this suggestion was only the English Wikipedia, I would wish it to address any Indian interested in contributing to the projects including any Indian language projects, the intent was to provide a first-step guide and a point of reference instead of the brief 7-line welcome template and a brief mention of the Five pillars, thats employed on the English Wikipedia. Indians also have the option of contributing in multiple languages, most however, might not even know about the existence of a local language project.
This problem is inherent to our system, your wish for maintaining the status quo would disregard all the attention and importance India has on the Movement Priorities. The issue is supporting and nurturing the community, I am arguing for a subdued approach while we build our own local communities.
For example, you tepidly suggested that I go through the archives of ANI to find similar issues addressed earlier, Most people on the list would know about the several thousand pages, not to mention hundreds of thousand of incidents on the English Wikipedia Administrative archives, how can we expect any newbie to go through something that daunting for the purpose of making or retaining their edit. The Guideline pages alone number several hundred pages, dictating everything from the appropriate 3rd party sources to the usage of quotation marks according to WP:MOS, dispensing things that matter the most from them is a critical issue for newcomers. People I met had no idea about the existence of* *WP:NOTE or our BLP policies, but they were expected to comply with them.
Public outreach is a very important issue, I believe the foundation undertook the Bookshelf project[2] recently for the same issue to increase outreach and provide easy assimilation of new wikipedians into the community. I was thinking of something along the same lines for India.
Regards
Salmaan
[1]http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Plan/Movement_Priorities [2]http://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Bookshelf_Project
On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 3:13 AM, Anirudh Bhati anirudhsbh@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 2:03 AM, theo10011 de10011@gmail.com wrote:
I beg to differ Anirudh, the issue is that the newbies don't know of
WP:HD
or any other place was the reason I suggested the page.
Finding out about the help desk or simply asking for help is much easier for a new user than looking for ideas cross-wiki. A simple welcome template contains instructions to ask for help without even having to move from one's talk page.[1]
By the same logic, If the newbies could ask their question on Help desk, they could also
look
up the same guidelines and the Noticeboards to see what they did wrong
and
complain appropriately, which would make the entire process redundant.
Newbies aren't expected to know each and every rule from the day they join Wikipedia, you have more experienced users asking them to IAR. IAR doesn't mean a free license to do whatever you want, but to learn as you go.[2]
What would make the entire process redundant are administrators who would be willing to give appropriate amount of attention to each and every contentious issue (esp. those which involve using the blocking tool). Many new users complain of over-zealousness on the part of long-term contributors, I can empathize with their position but cannot completely shift the blame on to the janitors.
As the encyclopedia continues to grow so does the amount of data that is churned on the project. Administrators continually end up deleting pages within moments of their creation, and get defensive when questioned. They block vandals without appropriate warnings and most of the time such blocks go unchallenged because of the nature of the edits (overt vandalism). But sometimes, as it happens with the huge amount of backlog, an administrator may perceive tenacious editing as disruption and vandalism, and when this happens our problems begin.
Please go through the archives of the administrators' noticeboard and you will find such issues have been discussed over and over again with no conclusive solution to the problem. Conflicts have been escalated to the point where the Arbitration Committee has had to issue sanctions on old hands resulting in burn out and retirement from the project. And you know what... I'd rather stand by a trusty old admin in the lieu of hundreds of whiny newbies who didn't have anything constructive to contribute anyway.
I understand that this may not be the optimal solution, but it's the one that has worked for us for years.
What I suggested was a centralized page where all the links that might be
helpful
to newbies would be collected together, where they can ask senior editors questions directly or look into issues for them. I suggested Meta for two reason- one to keep it off the English wiki
since
there is no shortage of similar places, and second most of the users
there
are very well-versed in policies and guidelines more than local wikis especially Indian Language Wikis, something of an "outside context" might
be
useful to newcomers.
Please follow through with your project but I don't see much use for it from an English Wikipedia standpoint. English Wikipedia had and still has the best available resources to assist new users and help them cope with conflicts.
I agree with Srikanth, there is a cultural difference, besides a
different
language there is rather large repository of policies of guidelines that might seem daunting to newcomers, we want to provide access as easily as possible. We have met many wikimedians who want to get involved in the movement on meetups, mailing lists - this page would act as a first step page for all of them, we can refer them to it to read up and ask
questions
if they have issues. What I would like to see is, something similar to
adopt
a user program so that experienced editors could adopt and guide new
comers.
Regards
I am all for courteous dealings with new users, but no amount of cajoling usually placates someone who has decided to game the system.[3]
Please explain to me how cultural differences result in a breakdown of communication to the extent that a user gets blocked for disruption? In the immediate case, it appears to me that Yogesh Khandke handled himself quite well (and has sufficiently proven that the blocks were made out of process, except that he didn't' challenge the block earlier). I don't see how an Indian community-run service for new users would have helped resolve the manner more equitably than a single old-hand noticing an unjustified block.
I have no issues with community building exercises, but most of them turn into cliques that outgrow their intended use.[4]
Salmaan
[1] {{helpme}} on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Welcome ([[Template:Welcome]]) [2] #5 on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Five_pillars ([[Wikipedia:Five pillars]] - IAR. [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:GAME ([[WP:GAME]]) [4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Esperanza
anirudh
On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 1:34 AM, Anirudh Bhati anirudhsbh@gmail.com
wrote:
On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 11:48 PM, theo10011 de10011@gmail.com wrote:
Interesting point Srikanth, we can address part of the issue. I propose something like "Don't bite the newcomers" page, pref.
located
on Meta where new Wikimedians especially the ones from India can ask question to more experienced editors. It would be along the lines of Admin noticeboard, RfC page in terms of structure but any experienced editor would be able to answer a newcomers question. They can watch their edit history and even promote our "adopt a user" feature by experienced editors. We can announce this page on the India Mailing list, newcomers at wiki-meetups, regularly for any new comers. For a centralized location
I
would suggest locating it on Meta considering the experienced user
base
and the multilingual community there. Any thoughts?
I wouldn't attribute this to cultural differences. Let's be clear on something, it's not only users from India who complain about rogue admins and editors.
[[w:en:WP:HD]] is still the best resource for new users to seek advice.
Creating a redundant page on meta serves no purpose. The India noticeboard is a responsive place to seek advice if the user finds himself/herself embroiled in a dispute over India-related subjects.
I do understand that a significant number of new pages patrollers, recent changes patrollers and some administrators are impatient with new users and that leads to unnecessary escalation of conflict. However, the underlying issue is much deeper and not exclusive for editors from India.
anirudh
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