What do you guys mean when you say you will create maps based on this? Do you create your own maps with this as the base map?

Thank you.

Best,

Gautam ________ http://social.prathambooks.org/

On 7 June 2011 21:11, CherianTinu Abraham tinucherian@gmail.com wrote:

Census website says : "Material on this site subject to copyright unless otherwise indicated." I am particularly curious on how we would be able to use data from census website. I used 2001 census data as input data for my Indian villages pilot project on en.wiki. I was waiting for 2011 census data for further work which would be more updated and correct information. But the site says it is still copyrighted. Any legal experts? -TC

On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 8:51 PM, Naveen Francis naveenpf@gmail.com wrote:

...

Hi all,

New maps for respective states can be created with following base.

Census Maps http://www.censusindia.gov.in/2011census/maps/maps2011.html

http://www.censusindia.gov.in/2011census/maps/administrative_maps/admmaps201...

Kerala administrative maps already created by Rajeshodayanchal as part of Malayalam Wikipedia Map Project. Please help us to translate the map to other indic languages via following tool  http://toolserver.org/~jarry/svgtranslate/

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kerala-administrative-divisions-map-m... (Kerala administrative maps in ml)

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kerala-administrative-divisions-map-e... (Kerala administrative maps in en)

Thanks, Naveen Francis

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Sadly, the issue of Government copyright exists and is real. There is no getting around it.

Thank you.

Best,

Gautam ________ http://social.prathambooks.org/

On 7 June 2011 23:22, Vickram Crishna vvcrishna@radiophony.com wrote:

Broadly speaking, any data collected with the use of public funds cannot be restricted for use from any member of the public. Having said that, even copyrighted information may be free to use, after all that is precisely what copyleft is. However, the use of copyleft is not commonly applied to textual information other than manuals attached to or related to copylefted software. Given the lack of public discourse in the area of copyleft in India, I have my doubts that the census data is copylefted. However, more information is needed. Mere mention of copyright is insufficient to prevent its lawful use and reuse for the public weal, without specifying the restrictions implicit or explicit in the specific license.

If any government body objects to the use of census data for any purpose relating to the public weal, I believe that there will be a strong case for legal strictures against the Census of India. On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 9:11 PM, CherianTinu Abraham tinucherian@gmail.com wrote:

...

Census website says : "Material on this site subject to copyright unless otherwise indicated." I am particularly curious on how we would be able to use data from census website. I used 2001 census data as input data for my Indian villages pilot project on en.wiki. I was waiting for 2011 census data for further work which would be more updated and correct information. But the site says it is still copyrighted. Any legal experts? -TC

On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 8:51 PM, Naveen Francis naveenpf@gmail.com wrote:

...

Hi all,

New maps for respective states can be created with following base.

Census Maps http://www.censusindia.gov.in/2011census/maps/maps2011.html

http://www.censusindia.gov.in/2011census/maps/administrative_maps/admmaps201...

Kerala administrative maps already created by Rajeshodayanchal as part of Malayalam Wikipedia Map Project. Please help us to translate the map to other indic languages via following tool  http://toolserver.org/~jarry/svgtranslate/

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kerala-administrative-divisions-map-m... (Kerala administrative maps in ml)

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kerala-administrative-divisions-map-e... (Kerala administrative maps in en)

Thanks, Naveen Francis

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On 8 June 2011 01:03, Vickram Crishna vvcrishna@radiophony.com wrote:

OK. No offense taken. Your legal grounding is well established, as we all know.

Oh sorry - none meant! Apologies if it sounded otherwise.

Can anyone please point me to the relevant link (for the census data, because the Census Authority is distinctly constituted at arm's length from the Government of India)? I would like to review the pertinent restrictions, for this list.

http://copyright.gov.in/Documents/CopyrightRules1957.pdf

28. Term of copyright in Government work.- In the case of Government work, where Government is the first owner of the copyright therein, copyright shall subsist until [Sixty] years from the beginning of the calendar year next following the year in which the work is first published.

Where Government work is defined as:

(k) "Government work" means a work which is made or published by or under the direction or control of- (i) the Government or any department of the Government; (ii) any Legislature in India; (iii) any court, tribunal or other judicial authority in India;

My reading is that the Census Authority is very much a part of government. A question that I have been thinking about is whether census data (in the raw form and not the presentation) is capable of being copyrighted.

Thank you.

Best,

Gautam ________ http://social.prathambooks.org/

On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 1:16 AM, Abhilash S Unni abhilashunni@gmail.comwrote:

Does this help.

http://censusindia.gov.in/Footer_Menus/Disclaimer.html

http://censusindia.gov.in/Footer_Menus/Disclaimer.htmlThe site mentions that

quote

*Copyright:*

Material on this site subject to copyright unless otherwise indicated. The material may be downloaded without requiring prior permission. Any other proposed use of the material is subject to the approval of ORGI - New Delhi. Application for obtaining permission should be made to ORGI, New Delhi

unquote

Here's a very interesting point about copyright, that I just read on a webpage discussing copyright infringements (and claims, in the USA, which is sure a good place to litigate):

[a valid copyright notice has 3 elements: (1) the rights holder name, (2) the copyright symbol, and (3) the year of first publication. Using an copyright notice in an invalid format – such as omitting the year of first publication – is not recommended]

The page is a blogpost by a photographer about pressing copyright claims in the USA: http://www.jeremynicholl.com/blog/2011/06/13/the-10-rules-of-us-copyright-in...

In this light, the copyright disclaimer on the Census webpage seems completely invalid.

Regards

Abhi

On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 1:13 AM, Gautam John gautam@prathambooks.orgwrote:

...

On 8 June 2011 01:03, Vickram Crishna vvcrishna@radiophony.com wrote:

...

OK. No offense taken. Your legal grounding is well established, as we

all

...

know.

Oh sorry - none meant! Apologies if it sounded otherwise.

...

Can anyone please point me to the relevant link (for the census data, because the Census Authority is distinctly constituted at arm's length

from

...

the Government of India)? I would like to review the pertinent

restrictions,

...

for this list.

http://copyright.gov.in/Documents/CopyrightRules1957.pdf

28. Term of copyright in Government work.- In the case of Government

work, where Government is the first owner of the copyright therein, copyright shall subsist until [Sixty] years from the beginning of the calendar year next following the year in which the work is first published.

Where Government work is defined as:

(k) "Government work" means a work which is made or published by or under the direction or control of- (i) the Government or any department of the Government; (ii) any Legislature in India; (iii) any court, tribunal or other judicial authority in India;

My reading is that the Census Authority is very much a part of government. A question that I have been thinking about is whether census data (in the raw form and not the presentation) is capable of being copyrighted.

Thank you.

Best,

Gautam ________ http://social.prathambooks.org/

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Now Gautam,

What do you suggest ? not use that pdf ? Discussion is not reaching anywhere

On 15 June 2011 11:51, Gautam John gautam@prathambooks.org wrote:

On 15 June 2011 03:38, Vickram Crishna vvcrishna@radiophony.com wrote:

...

In this light, the copyright disclaimer on the Census webpage seems completely invalid.

Vickram - good catch but even the lack of a copyright notice does not, per se, mean there is no copyright. Copyright is presumed to be granted the moment it has been created.

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On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 11:51 AM, Gautam John gautam@prathambooks.orgwrote:

On 15 June 2011 03:38, Vickram Crishna vvcrishna@radiophony.com wrote:

...

In this light, the copyright disclaimer on the Census webpage seems completely invalid.

Vickram - good catch but even the lack of a copyright notice does not, per se, mean there is no copyright. Copyright is presumed to be granted the moment it has been created.

Of course, and I am completely in agreement with the sentiments of the commons group, who evidently do not want to see Wikipedia get caught up in a series of fruitless litigations across the world.

I was drawing the attention of the list to the fact that the government people, who claim copyright for everything the government publishes, despite the fact that some of it is commons, are also ether slipshod in the manner in which they claim the copyright, or being forthright about the fact that some of it, possibly the data itself, is not intended to be copyrighted.

Now, the disclaimer wording brought to our attention by Abhilash also mentions that not everything in the site is copyright, one must look at individual listings within in order to see if copyright is claimed therein.

Naveen would do well to check that the information he wants to scrape in order to create his maps is specifically copyrighted, as otherwise it is clearly free-to-use, and the copyright disclaimer is very specific about this freedom.

For SVG translation, use this tool: http://toolserver.org/~jarry/svgtranslate/

My suggestion would be, let the respective language community do the translation. Transliteration may not work work all the time.

On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 9:17 AM, Naveen Francis naveenpf@gmail.com wrote:

Hi

I have done a plain google transliteration for India and Kerala maps to hi,kn,sa which is created by Rajesh Odayanchal( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Rajeshodayanchal) using a tool http://svg-edit.googlecode.com/svn/branches/2.5.1/editor/svg-editor.html

This maps were created as a part of Malayalam mapping project.

If it needs some correction; can you please help ?

Thanks, Naveen Francis

On 15 June 2011 16:30, Vickram Crishna vvcrishna@radiophony.com wrote:

...

On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 11:51 AM, Gautam John gautam@prathambooks.orgwrote:

...

On 15 June 2011 03:38, Vickram Crishna vvcrishna@radiophony.com wrote:

...

In this light, the copyright disclaimer on the Census webpage seems completely invalid.

Vickram - good catch but even the lack of a copyright notice does not, per se, mean there is no copyright. Copyright is presumed to be granted the moment it has been created.

Of course, and I am completely in agreement with the sentiments of the commons group, who evidently do not want to see Wikipedia get caught up in a series of fruitless litigations across the world.

I was drawing the attention of the list to the fact that the government people, who claim copyright for everything the government publishes, despite the fact that some of it is commons, are also ether slipshod in the manner in which they claim the copyright, or being forthright about the fact that some of it, possibly the data itself, is not intended to be copyrighted.

Now, the disclaimer wording brought to our attention by Abhilash also mentions that not everything in the site is copyright, one must look at individual listings within in order to see if copyright is claimed therein.

Naveen would do well to check that the information he wants to scrape in order to create his maps is specifically copyrighted, as otherwise it is clearly free-to-use, and the copyright disclaimer is very specific about this freedom.

-- Vickram Fool On The Hill http://communicall.wordpress.com

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Vickram, in my opinion and that of a friend, asking for a voluntary license (18,19,30A) along with the fact that it is a transformative use is probably the best bet. If not, fair dealing but that does leave us open to a legal challenge. Aside from this, there is the issue that even if we did get a license, we then do not have the ability to re-license it out under a CC-BY-SA license as required by Wikipedia and that would also run afoul of the fair dealing clause.

Thank you.

Best,

Gautam ________ http://social.prathambooks.org/

On 8 June 2011 05:17, Vickram Crishna vvcrishna@radiophony.com wrote:

On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 1:13 AM, Gautam John gautam@prathambooks.org wrote:

...

On 8 June 2011 01:03, Vickram Crishna vvcrishna@radiophony.com wrote:

My reading is that the Census Authority is very much a part of government. A question that I have been thinking about is whether census data (in the raw form and not the presentation) is capable of being copyrighted.

Aside from the supposition that the raw data is not in fact copyrightable in the first place, which is probably true, even if never tested, the law clearly provides for grant of permission for data to be represented in another form, such as sound or visual forms. It seems clear that the provisions of copyright (the sections are too tediously long and legally worded to reproduce here) are precisely applicable only to the form in which the information is presented by the author(s). Moreover, if the presentation of census data as published by the CA is in fact taken to be a design form as defined by the Design Act 1911 (but to be frank I haven't looked at what that creature is), then the copyright ceases as soon as 50 copies are circulated, which has obviously already happened if the data is online. I believe that mapped data represents precisely such alternate forms, especially if it is dynamically presented (but even if it is not). Making it dynamic is of course a highly useful form, one that I do not believe the census authority has yet conceived. The census authority cannot refuse permission for such presentation. If they do not publish the information as is planned by our colleagues, then their copyright effectively lapses in any case, for which proof an advertisement saying that (ie that no mapped data as has been proposed has been published) must be published in a popular newspaper (in English newspaper, for English language mapping, vernacular for vernacular mapping). Unfortunately, it says nothing (that I can find) about a public announcement on the Net, so maybe this advertisement stuff in newspapers is the only path. It seems that one must apply in the prescribed form for licensing permission, but also note that it is not possible to refuse permission for such applications, if the end use is scientific research or educational, and also for non-commercial purposes, provided the end use is in the form of a translation. However, this permission is only automatic after 3 and 7 years (subject to relevant conditions) from the date of first publication. Even here, I put it that the date of first publication is the date when the first Census was published, and not the current census. I think that would take it back to the early 20th century, and perhaps that might also mean that the government does not (heh, heh) in fact have the right to exclusive copyright of census data (even for the 'upgraded' 60 year copyright). The relevant clauses are:

1. Specificity: Sec 14
2. Design: Sec 15(2)
3. Government ownership: Sec 17(d) and (dd)
4. Compulsory licensing: Sec 31 (note that the RoC may assign some copyright

fee payable to the government, but prima facie it is unlikely they will do so in this case) 5. Automatic permission for translations etc: Sec 32 (sec 5(b) specifically provides for 'broadcasting') 6. Automatic permission for technical stuff: Sec 32A 7. Right to broadcast: Sec 37 (worth checking!) 8. Automatic visual recording for teaching: Sec 39 9. Possible challenge to government copyright of census data: Sec 44 (register of copyrights: quite possible that the census information has not been registered under the Act, and if so makes it impossible for the government to take action against any form of infringement - sec 50A provides for publication of registrations in the Gazette) 10. Fair use: Sec 52 a(i) etc -- Vickram Fool On The Hill

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Hi Ravi:

Personally, I am all for Fair Dealing/Use activism but the problem has been with the folk on Commons, no? That they keep deleting stuff?

Thank you.

Best,

Gautam ________ http://social.prathambooks.org/

On 8 June 2011 14:51, Ravishankar ravidreams@gmail.com wrote:

Hi,

Sometime before, we used the word meanings from a technical glossary provided by Tamil Virtual University for the Tamil Wiktionary project. Our rational is that only the presentation can be copyrighted and not the word or meaning. If the word or meaning itself is copyrighted, then there is no point in providing that word itself. Two years later after this initiative, we got the glossary donated to us formally. So, the copyright issue doesn't arise any more.

Most Governments and public institutions do mean to provide data for public use though they are not aware of Wikipedia compatible license. We can try contacting them and hope to get a favourable response. But, the legal and bureaucratic hurdles need not stop us from delaying our initiatives for too long. While I do understand the legal and philosophical significance of proper license to publish things, sometimes we also need to be bold and use things for larger good. Governments have many other jobs than suing us everyday !

Ravi

On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 10:48 AM, Gautam John gautam@prathambooks.orgwrote:

...

Vickram, in my opinion and that of a friend, asking for a voluntary license (18,19,30A) along with the fact that it is a transformative use is probably the best bet. If not, fair dealing but that does leave us open to a legal challenge. Aside from this, there is the issue that even if we did get a license, we then do not have the ability to re-license it out under a CC-BY-SA license as required by Wikipedia and that would also run afoul of the fair dealing clause.

Thank you.

Best,

Gautam ________ http://social.prathambooks.org/

On 8 June 2011 05:17, Vickram Crishna vvcrishna@radiophony.com wrote:

...

On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 1:13 AM, Gautam John gautam@prathambooks.org

wrote:

...

...

On 8 June 2011 01:03, Vickram Crishna vvcrishna@radiophony.com

wrote:

...

...

My reading is that the Census Authority is very much a part of government. A question that I have been thinking about is whether census data (in the raw form and not the presentation) is capable of being copyrighted.

Aside from the supposition that the raw data is not in fact

copyrightable in

...

the first place, which is probably true, even if never tested, the law clearly provides for grant of permission for data to be represented in another form, such as sound or visual forms. It seems clear that the provisions of copyright (the sections are too tediously long and legally worded to reproduce here) are precisely applicable only to the form in

which

...

the information is presented by the author(s). Moreover, if the

presentation

...

of census data as published by the CA is in fact taken to be a design

form

...

as defined by the Design Act 1911 (but to be frank I haven't looked at

what

...

that creature is), then the copyright ceases as soon as 50 copies are circulated, which has obviously already happened if the data is online. I believe that mapped data represents precisely such alternate forms, especially if it is dynamically presented (but even if it is not).

Making it

...

dynamic is of course a highly useful form, one that I do not believe the census authority has yet conceived. The census authority cannot refuse permission for such presentation. If they do not publish the information

as

...

is planned by our colleagues, then their copyright effectively lapses in

any

...

case, for which proof an advertisement saying that (ie that no mapped

data

...

as has been proposed has been published) must be published in a popular newspaper (in English newspaper, for English language mapping,

vernacular

...

for vernacular mapping). Unfortunately, it says nothing (that I can

find)

...

about a public announcement on the Net, so maybe this advertisement

stuff in

...

newspapers is the only path. It seems that one must apply in the prescribed form for licensing permission, but also note that it is not possible to refuse permission

for

...

such applications, if the end use is scientific research or educational,

and

...

also for non-commercial purposes, provided the end use is in the form of

a

...

translation. However, this permission is only automatic after 3 and 7

years

...

(subject to relevant conditions) from the date of first publication.

Even

...

here, I put it that the date of first publication is the date when the

first

...

Census was published, and not the current census. I think that would

take it

...

back to the early 20th century, and perhaps that might also mean that

the

...

government does not (heh, heh) in fact have the right to exclusive

copyright

...

of census data (even for the 'upgraded' 60 year copyright). The relevant clauses are:

1. Specificity: Sec 14
2. Design: Sec 15(2)
3. Government ownership: Sec 17(d) and (dd)
4. Compulsory licensing: Sec 31 (note that the RoC may assign some

copyright

...

fee payable to the government, but prima facie it is unlikely they will

do

...

so in this case) 5. Automatic permission for translations etc: Sec 32 (sec 5(b)

specifically

...

provides for 'broadcasting') 6. Automatic permission for technical stuff: Sec 32A 7. Right to broadcast: Sec 37 (worth checking!) 8. Automatic visual recording for teaching: Sec 39 9. Possible challenge to government copyright of census data: Sec 44 (register of copyrights: quite possible that the census information has

not

...

been registered under the Act, and if so makes it impossible for the government to take action against any form of infringement - sec 50A provides for publication of registrations in the Gazette) 10. Fair use: Sec 52 a(i) etc -- Vickram Fool On The Hill

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Even I have tried to reach them on all these fronts and didn't work !

If the India chapter wants to help us on this, there is nothing more to make a few like us very happy ! :)

Regards Tinu Cherian

On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 4:05 PM, Naveen Francis naveenpf@gmail.com wrote:

Hi

I have send a mail to them; as always no reply from them.

Posted the same request on the wall of Census2011

http://www.facebook.com/Census2011

If you have fb account try to convey the same message on facebook wall; then they will notice and respond back if we are lucky. It has worked for few sites .

till then let us use this pdf as the base.

Thanks, Naveen Francis

On 8 June 2011 14:54, Gautam John gautam@prathambooks.org wrote:

...

Hi Ravi:

Personally, I am all for Fair Dealing/Use activism but the problem has been with the folk on Commons, no? That they keep deleting stuff?

Thank you.

Best,

Gautam ________ http://social.prathambooks.org/

On 8 June 2011 14:51, Ravishankar ravidreams@gmail.com wrote:

...

Hi,

Sometime before, we used the word meanings from a technical glossary provided by Tamil Virtual University for the Tamil Wiktionary project. Our rational is that only the presentation can be copyrighted and not the word or meaning. If the word or meaning itself is copyrighted, then there is no point in providing that word itself. Two years later after this initiative, we got the glossary donated to us formally. So, the copyright issue doesn't arise any more.

Most Governments and public institutions do mean to provide data for public use though they are not aware of Wikipedia compatible license. We can try contacting them and hope to get a favourable response. But, the legal and bureaucratic hurdles need not stop us from delaying our initiatives for too long. While I do understand the legal and philosophical significance of proper license to publish things, sometimes we also need to be bold and use things for larger good. Governments have many other jobs than suing us everyday !

Ravi

On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 10:48 AM, Gautam John gautam@prathambooks.orgwrote:

...

Vickram, in my opinion and that of a friend, asking for a voluntary license (18,19,30A) along with the fact that it is a transformative use is probably the best bet. If not, fair dealing but that does leave us open to a legal challenge. Aside from this, there is the issue that even if we did get a license, we then do not have the ability to re-license it out under a CC-BY-SA license as required by Wikipedia and that would also run afoul of the fair dealing clause.

Thank you.

Best,

Gautam ________ http://social.prathambooks.org/

On 8 June 2011 05:17, Vickram Crishna vvcrishna@radiophony.com wrote:

...

On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 1:13 AM, Gautam John gautam@prathambooks.org

wrote:

...

...

On 8 June 2011 01:03, Vickram Crishna vvcrishna@radiophony.com

wrote:

...

...

My reading is that the Census Authority is very much a part of government. A question that I have been thinking about is whether census data (in the raw form and not the presentation) is capable of being copyrighted.

Aside from the supposition that the raw data is not in fact

copyrightable in

...

the first place, which is probably true, even if never tested, the law clearly provides for grant of permission for data to be represented in another form, such as sound or visual forms. It seems clear that the provisions of copyright (the sections are too tediously long and

legally

...

worded to reproduce here) are precisely applicable only to the form in

which

...

the information is presented by the author(s). Moreover, if the

presentation

...

of census data as published by the CA is in fact taken to be a design

form

...

as defined by the Design Act 1911 (but to be frank I haven't looked at

what

...

that creature is), then the copyright ceases as soon as 50 copies are circulated, which has obviously already happened if the data is

online.

...

I believe that mapped data represents precisely such alternate forms, especially if it is dynamically presented (but even if it is not).

Making it

...

dynamic is of course a highly useful form, one that I do not believe

the

...

census authority has yet conceived. The census authority cannot refuse permission for such presentation. If they do not publish the

information as

...

is planned by our colleagues, then their copyright effectively lapses

in any

...

case, for which proof an advertisement saying that (ie that no mapped

data

...

as has been proposed has been published) must be published in a

popular

...

newspaper (in English newspaper, for English language mapping,

vernacular

...

for vernacular mapping). Unfortunately, it says nothing (that I can

find)

...

about a public announcement on the Net, so maybe this advertisement

stuff in

...

newspapers is the only path. It seems that one must apply in the prescribed form for licensing permission, but also note that it is not possible to refuse permission

for

...

such applications, if the end use is scientific research or

educational, and

...

also for non-commercial purposes, provided the end use is in the form

of a

...

translation. However, this permission is only automatic after 3 and 7

years

...

(subject to relevant conditions) from the date of first publication.

Even

...

here, I put it that the date of first publication is the date when the

first

...

Census was published, and not the current census. I think that would

take it

...

back to the early 20th century, and perhaps that might also mean that

the

...

government does not (heh, heh) in fact have the right to exclusive

copyright

...

of census data (even for the 'upgraded' 60 year copyright). The relevant clauses are:

1. Specificity: Sec 14
2. Design: Sec 15(2)
3. Government ownership: Sec 17(d) and (dd)
4. Compulsory licensing: Sec 31 (note that the RoC may assign some

copyright

...

fee payable to the government, but prima facie it is unlikely they

will do

...

so in this case) 5. Automatic permission for translations etc: Sec 32 (sec 5(b)

specifically

...

provides for 'broadcasting') 6. Automatic permission for technical stuff: Sec 32A 7. Right to broadcast: Sec 37 (worth checking!) 8. Automatic visual recording for teaching: Sec 39 9. Possible challenge to government copyright of census data: Sec 44 (register of copyrights: quite possible that the census information

has not

...

been registered under the Act, and if so makes it impossible for the government to take action against any form of infringement - sec 50A provides for publication of registrations in the Gazette) 10. Fair use: Sec 52 a(i) etc -- Vickram Fool On The Hill

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By officially lobbying to release such data with the census board and Goverment PRDs to the public domain.

-Tinu Cherian

On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 5:27 PM, Naveen Francis naveenpf@gmail.com wrote:

Hi Tinu,

How can chapter help in this ?

Thanks, Naveen Francis

On 8 June 2011 16:25, CherianTinu Abraham tinucherian@gmail.com wrote:

...

Even I have tried to reach them on all these fronts and didn't work !

If the India chapter wants to help us on this, there is nothing more to make a few like us very happy ! :)

Regards Tinu Cherian

On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 4:05 PM, Naveen Francis naveenpf@gmail.comwrote:

...

Hi

I have send a mail to them; as always no reply from them.

Posted the same request on the wall of Census2011

http://www.facebook.com/Census2011

If you have fb account try to convey the same message on facebook wall; then they will notice and respond back if we are lucky. It has worked for few sites .

till then let us use this pdf as the base.

Thanks, Naveen Francis

On 8 June 2011 14:54, Gautam John gautam@prathambooks.org wrote:

...

Hi Ravi:

Personally, I am all for Fair Dealing/Use activism but the problem has been with the folk on Commons, no? That they keep deleting stuff?

Thank you.

Best,

Gautam ________ http://social.prathambooks.org/

On 8 June 2011 14:51, Ravishankar ravidreams@gmail.com wrote:

...

Hi,

Sometime before, we used the word meanings from a technical glossary provided by Tamil Virtual University for the Tamil Wiktionary project. Our rational is that only the presentation can be copyrighted and not the word or meaning. If the word or meaning itself is copyrighted, then there is no point in providing that word itself. Two years later after this initiative, we got the glossary donated to us formally. So, the copyright issue doesn't arise any more.

Most Governments and public institutions do mean to provide data for public use though they are not aware of Wikipedia compatible license. We can try contacting them and hope to get a favourable response. But, the legal and bureaucratic hurdles need not stop us from delaying our initiatives for too long. While I do understand the legal and philosophical significance of proper license to publish things, sometimes we also need to be bold and use things for larger good. Governments have many other jobs than suing us everyday !

Ravi

On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 10:48 AM, Gautam John gautam@prathambooks.orgwrote:

...

Vickram, in my opinion and that of a friend, asking for a voluntary license (18,19,30A) along with the fact that it is a transformative use is probably the best bet. If not, fair dealing but that does leave us open to a legal challenge. Aside from this, there is the issue that even if we did get a license, we then do not have the ability to re-license it out under a CC-BY-SA license as required by Wikipedia and that would also run afoul of the fair dealing clause.

Thank you.

Best,

Gautam ________ http://social.prathambooks.org/

On 8 June 2011 05:17, Vickram Crishna vvcrishna@radiophony.com wrote: > > > On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 1:13 AM, Gautam John < gautam@prathambooks.org> wrote: >> >> On 8 June 2011 01:03, Vickram Crishna vvcrishna@radiophony.com wrote: >> >> My reading is that the Census Authority is very much a part of >> government. A question that I have been thinking about is whether >> census data (in the raw form and not the presentation) is capable of >> being copyrighted. >> > > Aside from the supposition that the raw data is not in fact copyrightable in > the first place, which is probably true, even if never tested, the law > clearly provides for grant of permission for data to be represented in > another form, such as sound or visual forms. It seems clear that the > provisions of copyright (the sections are too tediously long and legally > worded to reproduce here) are precisely applicable only to the form in which > the information is presented by the author(s). Moreover, if the presentation > of census data as published by the CA is in fact taken to be a design form > as defined by the Design Act 1911 (but to be frank I haven't looked at what > that creature is), then the copyright ceases as soon as 50 copies are > circulated, which has obviously already happened if the data is online. > I believe that mapped data represents precisely such alternate forms, > especially if it is dynamically presented (but even if it is not). Making it > dynamic is of course a highly useful form, one that I do not believe the > census authority has yet conceived. The census authority cannot refuse > permission for such presentation. If they do not publish the information as > is planned by our colleagues, then their copyright effectively lapses in any > case, for which proof an advertisement saying that (ie that no mapped data > as has been proposed has been published) must be published in a popular > newspaper (in English newspaper, for English language mapping, vernacular > for vernacular mapping). Unfortunately, it says nothing (that I can find) > about a public announcement on the Net, so maybe this advertisement stuff in > newspapers is the only path. > It seems that one must apply in the prescribed form for licensing > permission, but also note that it is not possible to refuse permission for > such applications, if the end use is scientific research or educational, and > also for non-commercial purposes, provided the end use is in the form of a > translation. However, this permission is only automatic after 3 and 7 years > (subject to relevant conditions) from the date of first publication. Even > here, I put it that the date of first publication is the date when the first > Census was published, and not the current census. I think that would take it > back to the early 20th century, and perhaps that might also mean that the > government does not (heh, heh) in fact have the right to exclusive copyright > of census data (even for the 'upgraded' 60 year copyright). > The relevant clauses are: > 1. Specificity: Sec 14 > 2. Design: Sec 15(2) > 3. Government ownership: Sec 17(d) and (dd) > 4. Compulsory licensing: Sec 31 (note that the RoC may assign some copyright > fee payable to the government, but prima facie it is unlikely they will do > so in this case) > 5. Automatic permission for translations etc: Sec 32 (sec 5(b) specifically > provides for 'broadcasting') > 6. Automatic permission for technical stuff: Sec 32A > 7. Right to broadcast: Sec 37 (worth checking!) > 8. Automatic visual recording for teaching: Sec 39 > 9. Possible challenge to government copyright of census data: Sec 44 > (register of copyrights: quite possible that the census information has not > been registered under the Act, and if so makes it impossible for the > government to take action against any form of infringement - sec 50A > provides for publication of registrations in the Gazette) > 10. Fair use: Sec 52 a(i) etc > -- > Vickram > Fool On The Hill > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimediaindia-l mailing list > Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l > >

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So here's an idea.

The Government has promised some open data and maps next month:

http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2011-06-04/news/29620789_1_nati...

Maybe, what we can all do, is to collect examples of how and where openly licensed content helps and we can build a case and see if and how we need to use it once they announce this?

Thank you.

Best,

Gautam ________ http://social.prathambooks.org/

On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 10:48 AM, Gautam John gautam@prathambooks.orgwrote:

Vickram, in my opinion and that of a friend, asking for a voluntary license (18,19,30A) along with the fact that it is a transformative use is probably the best bet. If not, fair dealing but that does leave us open to a legal challenge. Aside from this, there is the issue that even if we did get a license, we then do not have the ability to re-license it out under a CC-BY-SA license as required by Wikipedia and that would also run afoul of the fair dealing clause.

Yes, I also thought of that. It does suppose that we have to define what precisely is meant by 'owned by the Government' mean, in terms of whether the Government actually owns anything rather than hold it in trust for us, which is probably not precisely the same as is meant to be covered under the Wikipedia freedom license.

Srikanth asks how raw data can be copyrighted. That is probably a better starting point.

It seems to me that forms uploaded to Wikipedia fulfil the definition of 'authorship' [2(d(vi)], hence the Government cannot claim prior copyright in the first place. All we would be doing in this case is creating artistic forms that use data that is uncopyrightable, just as we are always free to use the letters of the alphabet, and the colours of the spectrum, in creating a map.

Also, wrt infringement, in 2(m) and 2(n) it is not clear to me that creation of a new depiction transgresses in any way the protection afforded to an original database. I do not think that the maps per se result in an independent distribution of the database itself*. Wikipedia must not reproduce (except as covered by 'fair dealing') any of the depictions used by the Government. For original depictions, ie maps created by the team, on the contrary, it will be the Government infringing on Wikipedia's license, if it then uses (ie not 'fair dealing') any of the map forms on Wikipedia.

*It is important, therefore, that the maps, even if depicted dynamically, do not result in being able to extract the database itself. I know this might contradict my previous stand that a temporally dynamic map would be very valuable, and probably much more useful than the CA website, in some circumstances, but perhaps some care could be taken to prevent reverse analysis of the map.

Finally, I think we can perhaps look at Sec 17 (d) and (dd), as to whether data gathered by the Government constitutes a copyrightable work. I rather think that only the 'forms' in which that data is displayed/published can be considered a copyrightable work under the Act, and not the work undertaken in gathering the data. When you read the sections relating to architectural works, it seems very clear that only the finished artistic form can be copyrighted.

I was thinking (as a last resort) of a public challenge (again, something that only the WMI chapter might choose to consider) of the implicit assumption that publicly paid for works can be 'privately' copyrighted by the Government, but really, I think we do not even need to go there. Since it has already been published, I cannot see anything else fundamentally wrong with the claimed copyright that Abhilash quoted, but I put it that it does not and cannot mean that creating maps independently on Wikipedia, using the same data in whole or in combination with other data, can be considered an infringement.

Thank you.

Best,

Gautam ________ http://social.prathambooks.org/

On 8 June 2011 05:17, Vickram Crishna vvcrishna@radiophony.com wrote:

...

On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 1:13 AM, Gautam John gautam@prathambooks.org

wrote:

...

...

On 8 June 2011 01:03, Vickram Crishna vvcrishna@radiophony.com wrote:

My reading is that the Census Authority is very much a part of government. A question that I have been thinking about is whether census data (in the raw form and not the presentation) is capable of being copyrighted.

Aside from the supposition that the raw data is not in fact copyrightable

in

...

the first place, which is probably true, even if never tested, the law clearly provides for grant of permission for data to be represented in another form, such as sound or visual forms. It seems clear that the provisions of copyright (the sections are too tediously long and legally worded to reproduce here) are precisely applicable only to the form in

which

...

the information is presented by the author(s). Moreover, if the

presentation

...

of census data as published by the CA is in fact taken to be a design

form

...

as defined by the Design Act 1911 (but to be frank I haven't looked at

what

...

that creature is), then the copyright ceases as soon as 50 copies are circulated, which has obviously already happened if the data is online. I believe that mapped data represents precisely such alternate forms, especially if it is dynamically presented (but even if it is not). Making

it

...

dynamic is of course a highly useful form, one that I do not believe the census authority has yet conceived. The census authority cannot refuse permission for such presentation. If they do not publish the information

as

...

is planned by our colleagues, then their copyright effectively lapses in

any

...

case, for which proof an advertisement saying that (ie that no mapped

data

...

as has been proposed has been published) must be published in a popular newspaper (in English newspaper, for English language mapping, vernacular for vernacular mapping). Unfortunately, it says nothing (that I can find) about a public announcement on the Net, so maybe this advertisement stuff

in

...

newspapers is the only path. It seems that one must apply in the prescribed form for licensing permission, but also note that it is not possible to refuse permission

for

...

such applications, if the end use is scientific research or educational,

and

...

also for non-commercial purposes, provided the end use is in the form of

a

...

translation. However, this permission is only automatic after 3 and 7

years

...

(subject to relevant conditions) from the date of first publication. Even here, I put it that the date of first publication is the date when the

first

...

Census was published, and not the current census. I think that would take

it

...

back to the early 20th century, and perhaps that might also mean that the government does not (heh, heh) in fact have the right to exclusive

copyright

...

of census data (even for the 'upgraded' 60 year copyright). The relevant clauses are:

1. Specificity: Sec 14
2. Design: Sec 15(2)
3. Government ownership: Sec 17(d) and (dd)
4. Compulsory licensing: Sec 31 (note that the RoC may assign some

copyright

...

fee payable to the government, but prima facie it is unlikely they will

do

...

so in this case) 5. Automatic permission for translations etc: Sec 32 (sec 5(b)

specifically

...

provides for 'broadcasting') 6. Automatic permission for technical stuff: Sec 32A 7. Right to broadcast: Sec 37 (worth checking!) 8. Automatic visual recording for teaching: Sec 39 9. Possible challenge to government copyright of census data: Sec 44 (register of copyrights: quite possible that the census information has

not

...

been registered under the Act, and if so makes it impossible for the government to take action against any form of infringement - sec 50A provides for publication of registrations in the Gazette) 10. Fair use: Sec 52 a(i) etc -- Vickram Fool On The Hill

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