Hi Folks
I'm deliberately opening a new mail chain on this. This is at the risk of me being told off for doing so - but I believe that email protocol is one thing - but communication philosophy is (arguably) even more critical.
I (and personally upsetting to me, others at India Programs - namely Nitika & the Campus Ambassadors) have taken some beating over the past few days. Some has been personal and not been circumspect or constructive; not pretty. I have been touched by the offlist messages of comfort and support that I and the others have got.
I am exceedingly worried about the impact it has had on team morale. To all those who have criticised the India Education Program, spare a thought for the volunteers who have helped out on this. I want to tell the Campus Ambassadors to be strong and keep your chins up. You guys have been incredible. Hand on heart, you have given your hearts and souls and have conducted probably the single biggest Wikipedia outreach program in the world. (btw, I really don't care if someone wants to tag this as {citation required.}) You have taken time out of your working lives and college days. I know how tough it's been - conducting more than 100 in-class sessions, working with so many students and faculty, reaching out on email and talk pages and SMS and mobile calls and social networks and in canteens, poring over student entries, learning Wikipedia policies, figuring out new tools to help your work, building relationships with other editors across the globe, doing the back-breaking documentation that's been required on project & course pages, and I can go on and on and on. I know that sustaining this level of motivation and energy over months has been hard on you. I also know some of you faltered. I know some of you wanted to scream and kick someone some times, maybe even many people many times! Keep the faith, guys.
I am sorry for the personal attack on Nitika. To her, I want to publicly apologise. I know her to be hard-working, diligent, honest, competent and an all-round professional. She's new and she's learning and has and will make mistakes - like all of us do. It is fantastic to have her on the team. Period.
The program is a pilot - and we made a ton of mistakes. Sorry, let me rephrase that. I led the initiative so all responsibility should be mine. I made a ton of mistakes. I promise the following. We will have a thorough, honest and fact based evaluation. We will be open to make all the changes that are required. We will not let the events of the past few days force us into a bunker mentality. We will be open and we will be intellectually rigorous. We will learn and we will improve. The India opportunity is massive - and our ambitions are huge. It is also fraught with challenges. Unless we try and do things - new and tough and complex things - we will never be able to realise our true potential.
I know that some who have participated in these exchanges are driven by an awe-inspiring love and passion for Wikipedia. I urge you to continue to come forward and work with others and us. Come forward early though - and stay engaged through the journey. It will have ups and downs.
On communication, I urge everyone to maintain WP:CIVILITY and WP:NPOV in all our interactions. On this - and to be fair - quite a few other interactions recently on totally unrelated topics (and involving a whole host of others), I daresay we have drifted from core Wikipedia principles. These should apply to us to all our community's interactions as religiously as we apply them to our projects.
I would urge folks who agree with me to write back. Even a +1 will do. Let's hear the voices of the quieter folks. Let's hear from the folks who don't always get involved in mailing list exchanges out of either apprehension or apathy. Let's move forward.
Warm Regards,
hisham
+1
Warm regards,
Ashwin Baindur ------------------------------------------------------
On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 9:52 AM, Hisham hmundol@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hi Folks
I'm deliberately opening a new mail chain on this. This is at the risk of me being told off for doing so - but I believe that email protocol is one thing - but communication philosophy is (arguably) even more critical.
I (and personally upsetting to me, others at India Programs - namely Nitika & the Campus Ambassadors) have taken some beating over the past few days. Some has been personal and not been circumspect or constructive; not pretty. I have been touched by the offlist messages of comfort and support that I and the others have got.
I am exceedingly worried about the impact it has had on team morale. To all those who have criticised the India Education Program, spare a thought for the volunteers who have helped out on this. I want to tell the Campus Ambassadors to be strong and keep your chins up. You guys have been incredible. Hand on heart, you have given your hearts and souls and have conducted probably the single biggest Wikipedia outreach program in the world. (btw, I really don't care if someone wants to tag this as {citation required.}) You have taken time out of your working lives and college days. I know how tough it's been - conducting more than 100 in-class sessions, working with so many students and faculty, reaching out on email and talk pages and SMS and mobile calls and social networks and in canteens, poring over student entries, learning Wikipedia policies, figuring out new tools to help your work, building relationships with other editors across the globe, doing the back-breaking documentation that's been required on project & course pages, and I can go on and on and on. I know that sustaining this level of motivation and energy over months has been hard on you. I also know some of you faltered. I know some of you wanted to scream and kick someone some times, maybe even many people many times! Keep the faith, guys.
I am sorry for the personal attack on Nitika. To her, I want to publicly apologise. I know her to be hard-working, diligent, honest, competent and an all-round professional. She's new and she's learning and has and will make mistakes - like all of us do. It is fantastic to have her on the team. Period.
The program is a pilot - and we made a ton of mistakes. Sorry, let me rephrase that. I led the initiative so all responsibility should be mine. I made a ton of mistakes. I promise the following. We will have a thorough, honest and fact based evaluation. We will be open to make all the changes that are required. We will not let the events of the past few days force us into a bunker mentality. We will be open and we will be intellectually rigorous. We will learn and we will improve. The India opportunity is massive - and our ambitions are huge. It is also fraught with challenges. Unless we try and do things - new and tough and complex things - we will never be able to realise our true potential.
I know that some who have participated in these exchanges are driven by an awe-inspiring love and passion for Wikipedia. I urge you to continue to come forward and work with others and us. Come forward early though - and stay engaged through the journey. It will have ups and downs.
On communication, I urge everyone to maintain WP:CIVILITY and WP:NPOV in all our interactions. On this - and to be fair - quite a few other interactions recently on totally unrelated topics (and involving a whole host of others), I daresay we have drifted from core Wikipedia principles. These should apply to us to all our community's interactions as religiously as we apply them to our projects.
I would urge folks who agree with me to write back. Even a +1 will do. Let's hear the voices of the quieter folks. Let's hear from the folks who don't always get involved in mailing list exchanges out of either apprehension or apathy. Let's move forward.
Warm Regards,
hisham
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
+1
Thank you.
Best,
Gautam (handheld) On Nov 15, 2011 9:53 AM, "Hisham" hmundol@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hi Folks
I'm deliberately opening a new mail chain on this. This is at the risk of me being told off for doing so - but I believe that email protocol is one thing - but communication philosophy is (arguably) even more critical.
I (and personally upsetting to me, others at India Programs - namely Nitika & the Campus Ambassadors) have taken some beating over the past few days. Some has been personal and not been circumspect or constructive; not pretty. I have been touched by the offlist messages of comfort and support that I and the others have got.
I am exceedingly worried about the impact it has had on team morale. To all those who have criticised the India Education Program, spare a thought for the volunteers who have helped out on this. I want to tell the Campus Ambassadors to be strong and keep your chins up. You guys have been incredible. Hand on heart, you have given your hearts and souls and have conducted probably the single biggest Wikipedia outreach program in the world. (btw, I really don't care if someone wants to tag this as {citation required.}) You have taken time out of your working lives and college days. I know how tough it's been - conducting more than 100 in-class sessions, working with so many students and faculty, reaching out on email and talk pages and SMS and mobile calls and social networks and in canteens, poring over student entries, learning Wikipedia policies, figuring out new tools to help your work, building relationships with other editors across the globe, doing the back-breaking documentation that's been required on project & course pages, and I can go on and on and on. I know that sustaining this level of motivation and energy over months has been hard on you. I also know some of you faltered. I know some of you wanted to scream and kick someone some times, maybe even many people many times! Keep the faith, guys.
I am sorry for the personal attack on Nitika. To her, I want to publicly apologise. I know her to be hard-working, diligent, honest, competent and an all-round professional. She's new and she's learning and has and will make mistakes - like all of us do. It is fantastic to have her on the team. Period.
The program is a pilot - and we made a ton of mistakes. Sorry, let me rephrase that. I led the initiative so all responsibility should be mine. I made a ton of mistakes. I promise the following. We will have a thorough, honest and fact based evaluation. We will be open to make all the changes that are required. We will not let the events of the past few days force us into a bunker mentality. We will be open and we will be intellectually rigorous. We will learn and we will improve. The India opportunity is massive - and our ambitions are huge. It is also fraught with challenges. Unless we try and do things - new and tough and complex things - we will never be able to realise our true potential.
I know that some who have participated in these exchanges are driven by an awe-inspiring love and passion for Wikipedia. I urge you to continue to come forward and work with others and us. Come forward early though - and stay engaged through the journey. It will have ups and downs.
On communication, I urge everyone to maintain WP:CIVILITY and WP:NPOV in all our interactions. On this - and to be fair - quite a few other interactions recently on totally unrelated topics (and involving a whole host of others), I daresay we have drifted from core Wikipedia principles. These should apply to us to all our community's interactions as religiously as we apply them to our projects.
I would urge folks who agree with me to write back. Even a +1 will do. Let's hear the voices of the quieter folks. Let's hear from the folks who don't always get involved in mailing list exchanges out of either apprehension or apathy. Let's move forward.
Warm Regards,
hisham
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
+1
On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 09:52, Hisham hmundol@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hi Folks
I'm deliberately opening a new mail chain on this. This is at the risk of me being told off for doing so - but I believe that email protocol is one thing - but communication philosophy is (arguably) even more critical.
I (and personally upsetting to me, others at India Programs - namely Nitika & the Campus Ambassadors) have taken some beating over the past few days. Some has been personal and not been circumspect or constructive; not pretty. I have been touched by the offlist messages of comfort and support that I and the others have got.
I am exceedingly worried about the impact it has had on team morale. To all those who have criticised the India Education Program, spare a thought for the volunteers who have helped out on this. I want to tell the Campus Ambassadors to be strong and keep your chins up. You guys have been incredible. Hand on heart, you have given your hearts and souls and have conducted probably the single biggest Wikipedia outreach program in the world. (btw, I really don't care if someone wants to tag this as {citation required.}) You have taken time out of your working lives and college days. I know how tough it's been - conducting more than 100 in-class sessions, working with so many students and faculty, reaching out on email and talk pages and SMS and mobile calls and social networks and in canteens, poring over student entries, learning Wikipedia policies, figuring out new tools to help your work, building relationships with other editors across the globe, doing the back-breaking documentation that's been required on project & course pages, and I can go on and on and on. I know that sustaining this level of motivation and energy over months has been hard on you. I also know some of you faltered. I know some of you wanted to scream and kick someone some times, maybe even many people many times! Keep the faith, guys.
I am sorry for the personal attack on Nitika. To her, I want to publicly apologise. I know her to be hard-working, diligent, honest, competent and an all-round professional. She's new and she's learning and has and will make mistakes - like all of us do. It is fantastic to have her on the team. Period.
The program is a pilot - and we made a ton of mistakes. Sorry, let me rephrase that. I led the initiative so all responsibility should be mine. I made a ton of mistakes. I promise the following. We will have a thorough, honest and fact based evaluation. We will be open to make all the changes that are required. We will not let the events of the past few days force us into a bunker mentality. We will be open and we will be intellectually rigorous. We will learn and we will improve. The India opportunity is massive - and our ambitions are huge. It is also fraught with challenges. Unless we try and do things - new and tough and complex things - we will never be able to realise our true potential.
I know that some who have participated in these exchanges are driven by an awe-inspiring love and passion for Wikipedia. I urge you to continue to come forward and work with others and us. Come forward early though - and stay engaged through the journey. It will have ups and downs.
On communication, I urge everyone to maintain WP:CIVILITY and WP:NPOV in all our interactions. On this - and to be fair - quite a few other interactions recently on totally unrelated topics (and involving a whole host of others), I daresay we have drifted from core Wikipedia principles. These should apply to us to all our community's interactions as religiously as we apply them to our projects.
I would urge folks who agree with me to write back. Even a +1 will do. Let's hear the voices of the quieter folks. Let's hear from the folks who don't always get involved in mailing list exchanges out of either apprehension or apathy. Let's move forward.
Warm Regards,
hisham
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
I guess I'm one of the apprehensive/apathetic quiet ones Hisham's mail refers to, so here goes:
+1
I have maintained my silence so far in the numerous discussions as I intended to express my views cohesively at the opportunity given to me at the WikiConference. However, I feel obliged to speak up when the discussions have moved past criticism to borderline attacks on people who have worked hard and worked honestly.
I have been involved in the Pune pilot as a fellow, at first, and informally later. I too, therefore, shoulder the responsibility of the results of the program being a contributor to it. I will also be presenting a review (my opinions and experiences) from at the WikiConference. Having been the only 'Wikipedian' in the program, let me first stand up and say, if we do brand the Pune Pilot as a failure (which it definitely is not), it must classify as an effort which has achieved more than most successful Wiki-initiatives. I would also point out the untiring dedication and hard work put in by the CAs, the superhuman efforts of PJ Tabit in setting up the program and the superlative leadership efforts of Hisham and Nitika.
That having been said, the program isn't where it set out to be. But that is what a pilot programme is. A dipstick test. A method, field tested to understand real-world reactions to it. I remember one statement made by Hisham, right at the beginning of the program while we were approaching colleges to sign up for the program who were urging us to alter the nature of the program to suit them:
*"It is important that we decide one way of doing the program and stick with the core principles of it. This would be better than trying several approaches, failing and not knowing where you went wrong"* [not verbatim, my interpretation of something similar]
I considered this to be a obfuscated yet quintessential objective of a Pilot program. To try, to stumble and then evaluate. And the evaluation will happen. Discussions about the campus program are a significant chunk of the program schedule at the WikiConference. And informal discussions will undoubtedly extend the allotted time. The reviews have already begun in the discussions on this list where significant headway has been made in the evaluation. But it is unfortunate when criticisms overflow into personal jabs and aspersions on competence.
Srikanth earlier in the discussion had stated that he wondered if we're succumbing to the Indian mentality of highlighting only success and hiding failures. I believe that we must also move away from the stereotyped Indian mentality of punishing failures to evaluating good-faith ventures and collaboratively developing improvements towards a common goal.
No grudges held, no bad faith assumed.
On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 9:52 AM, Hisham hmundol@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hi Folks
I'm deliberately opening a new mail chain on this. This is at the risk of me being told off for doing so - but I believe that email protocol is one thing - but communication philosophy is (arguably) even more critical.
I (and personally upsetting to me, others at India Programs - namely Nitika & the Campus Ambassadors) have taken some beating over the past few days. Some has been personal and not been circumspect or constructive; not pretty. I have been touched by the offlist messages of comfort and support that I and the others have got.
I am exceedingly worried about the impact it has had on team morale. To all those who have criticised the India Education Program, spare a thought for the volunteers who have helped out on this. I want to tell the Campus Ambassadors to be strong and keep your chins up. You guys have been incredible. Hand on heart, you have given your hearts and souls and have conducted probably the single biggest Wikipedia outreach program in the world. (btw, I really don't care if someone wants to tag this as {citation required.}) You have taken time out of your working lives and college days. I know how tough it's been - conducting more than 100 in-class sessions, working with so many students and faculty, reaching out on email and talk pages and SMS and mobile calls and social networks and in canteens, poring over student entries, learning Wikipedia policies, figuring out new tools to help your work, building relationships with other editors across the globe, doing the back-breaking documentation that's been required on project & course pages, and I can go on and on and on. I know that sustaining this level of motivation and energy over months has been hard on you. I also know some of you faltered. I know some of you wanted to scream and kick someone some times, maybe even many people many times! Keep the faith, guys.
I am sorry for the personal attack on Nitika. To her, I want to publicly apologise. I know her to be hard-working, diligent, honest, competent and an all-round professional. She's new and she's learning and has and will make mistakes - like all of us do. It is fantastic to have her on the team. Period.
The program is a pilot - and we made a ton of mistakes. Sorry, let me rephrase that. I led the initiative so all responsibility should be mine. I made a ton of mistakes. I promise the following. We will have a thorough, honest and fact based evaluation. We will be open to make all the changes that are required. We will not let the events of the past few days force us into a bunker mentality. We will be open and we will be intellectually rigorous. We will learn and we will improve. The India opportunity is massive - and our ambitions are huge. It is also fraught with challenges. Unless we try and do things - new and tough and complex things - we will never be able to realise our true potential.
I know that some who have participated in these exchanges are driven by an awe-inspiring love and passion for Wikipedia. I urge you to continue to come forward and work with others and us. Come forward early though - and stay engaged through the journey. It will have ups and downs.
On communication, I urge everyone to maintain WP:CIVILITY and WP:NPOV in all our interactions. On this - and to be fair - quite a few other interactions recently on totally unrelated topics (and involving a whole host of others), I daresay we have drifted from core Wikipedia principles. These should apply to us to all our community's interactions as religiously as we apply them to our projects.
I would urge folks who agree with me to write back. Even a +1 will do. Let's hear the voices of the quieter folks. Let's hear from the folks who don't always get involved in mailing list exchanges out of either apprehension or apathy. Let's move forward.
Warm Regards,
hisham
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Regards
+1 for Hisham and Srikeit.
On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 10:38 AM, Srikeit srikeit@gmail.com wrote:
I guess I'm one of the apprehensive/apathetic quiet ones Hisham's mail refers to, so here goes:
+1
I have maintained my silence so far in the numerous discussions as I intended to express my views cohesively at the opportunity given to me at the WikiConference. However, I feel obliged to speak up when the discussions have moved past criticism to borderline attacks on people who have worked hard and worked honestly.
I have been involved in the Pune pilot as a fellow, at first, and informally later. I too, therefore, shoulder the responsibility of the results of the program being a contributor to it. I will also be presenting a review (my opinions and experiences) from at the WikiConference. Having been the only 'Wikipedian' in the program, let me first stand up and say, if we do brand the Pune Pilot as a failure (which it definitely is not), it must classify as an effort which has achieved more than most successful Wiki-initiatives. I would also point out the untiring dedication and hard work put in by the CAs, the superhuman efforts of PJ Tabit in setting up the program and the superlative leadership efforts of Hisham and Nitika.
That having been said, the program isn't where it set out to be. But that is what a pilot programme is. A dipstick test. A method, field tested to understand real-world reactions to it. I remember one statement made by Hisham, right at the beginning of the program while we were approaching colleges to sign up for the program who were urging us to alter the nature of the program to suit them:
*"It is important that we decide one way of doing the program and stick with the core principles of it. This would be better than trying several approaches, failing and not knowing where you went wrong"* [not verbatim, my interpretation of something similar]
I considered this to be a obfuscated yet quintessential objective of a Pilot program. To try, to stumble and then evaluate. And the evaluation will happen. Discussions about the campus program are a significant chunk of the program schedule at the WikiConference. And informal discussions will undoubtedly extend the allotted time. The reviews have already begun in the discussions on this list where significant headway has been made in the evaluation. But it is unfortunate when criticisms overflow into personal jabs and aspersions on competence.
Srikanth earlier in the discussion had stated that he wondered if we're succumbing to the Indian mentality of highlighting only success and hiding failures. I believe that we must also move away from the stereotyped Indian mentality of punishing failures to evaluating good-faith ventures and collaboratively developing improvements towards a common goal.
No grudges held, no bad faith assumed.
On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 9:52 AM, Hisham hmundol@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hi Folks
I'm deliberately opening a new mail chain on this. This is at the risk of me being told off for doing so - but I believe that email protocol is one thing - but communication philosophy is (arguably) even more critical.
I (and personally upsetting to me, others at India Programs - namely Nitika & the Campus Ambassadors) have taken some beating over the past few days. Some has been personal and not been circumspect or constructive; not pretty. I have been touched by the offlist messages of comfort and support that I and the others have got.
I am exceedingly worried about the impact it has had on team morale. To all those who have criticised the India Education Program, spare a thought for the volunteers who have helped out on this. I want to tell the Campus Ambassadors to be strong and keep your chins up. You guys have been incredible. Hand on heart, you have given your hearts and souls and have conducted probably the single biggest Wikipedia outreach program in the world. (btw, I really don't care if someone wants to tag this as {citation required.}) You have taken time out of your working lives and college days. I know how tough it's been - conducting more than 100 in-class sessions, working with so many students and faculty, reaching out on email and talk pages and SMS and mobile calls and social networks and in canteens, poring over student entries, learning Wikipedia policies, figuring out new tools to help your work, building relationships with other editors across the globe, doing the back-breaking documentation that's been required on project & course pages, and I can go on and on and on. I know that sustaining this level of motivation and energy over months has been hard on you. I also know some of you faltered. I know some of you wanted to scream and kick someone some times, maybe even many people many times! Keep the faith, guys.
I am sorry for the personal attack on Nitika. To her, I want to publicly apologise. I know her to be hard-working, diligent, honest, competent and an all-round professional. She's new and she's learning and has and will make mistakes - like all of us do. It is fantastic to have her on the team. Period.
The program is a pilot - and we made a ton of mistakes. Sorry, let me rephrase that. I led the initiative so all responsibility should be mine. I made a ton of mistakes. I promise the following. We will have a thorough, honest and fact based evaluation. We will be open to make all the changes that are required. We will not let the events of the past few days force us into a bunker mentality. We will be open and we will be intellectually rigorous. We will learn and we will improve. The India opportunity is massive - and our ambitions are huge. It is also fraught with challenges. Unless we try and do things - new and tough and complex things - we will never be able to realise our true potential.
I know that some who have participated in these exchanges are driven by an awe-inspiring love and passion for Wikipedia. I urge you to continue to come forward and work with others and us. Come forward early though - and stay engaged through the journey. It will have ups and downs.
On communication, I urge everyone to maintain WP:CIVILITY and WP:NPOV in all our interactions. On this - and to be fair - quite a few other interactions recently on totally unrelated topics (and involving a whole host of others), I daresay we have drifted from core Wikipedia principles. These should apply to us to all our community's interactions as religiously as we apply them to our projects.
I would urge folks who agree with me to write back. Even a +1 will do. Let's hear the voices of the quieter folks. Let's hear from the folks who don't always get involved in mailing list exchanges out of either apprehension or apathy. Let's move forward.
Warm Regards,
hisham
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Regards
Srikeit Tadepalli
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Well said, Hisham, Srikeit at al. Nobody's asking for rah-rah excitement. Being dispassionate and critical is the goal. Being hostile and dickish is unhelpful -- there's no possible useful end that could serve.
So: If you're adding more heat than light to a conversation, please don't join the conversation. If you're attacking others and calling into question their legitimacy in being here, without them having violated any of the ground rules of good faith behavior, you begin violating those norms yourself. Calm down, have a tea, and read some good poetry (or write it, if you're truly suffering :-).
At WMF, we'd be completely happy to abandon the Global Education Program model altogether if it turned out to be a failure, and we'd be happy to abandon it for India or other countries if it turned out to be a failure there. Nobody wants to spend $$$ and blood/sweat equity (the only type that exists in nonprofits) on stuff that isn't achieving its intended impact.
So far, however, what I've seen is a very successful US initiative followed by an India pilot which has encountered very serious, deep challenges with contribution quality. The analysis that I've seen so far really suggests that what it comes down to is abject contribution quality by lots of the participating students and a routine pattern of copyright infringement (and I would label it plagiarism if they're not identifying the source). Let me know if I got that wrong.
That sucks, but if so, that's a problem that needs to be named to be tackled in a serious fashion. No amount of tweaking the program parameters would have solved the issues of the scale and type that have been pointed out. This goes to the fundamentals.
And - to stay with the sandbox metaphor from another thread - if the majority of contributors to a university-based program in India can reach won't be able to contribute at an acceptable quality in WP proper, then perhaps it's also time to think about more aggressive sandboxing of contributions early in the game, at least when we're dealing with a course where we either don't know what to expect, or we _do_ based on experiences like the one to date. Possibly even using an external sandbox.
Lastly, let's not forget that we haven't made any determination as to what the best methods are to gain, and keep, great new contributors in India (or elsewhere, for that matter). We can, and should, continue to experiment with many different approaches, including some of the suggestions that have been made in previous threads.
All the energy, including the occasional flamewar, that I'm seeing here really speaks tons to the strengths of the India community as a whole. Energy, creativity, intelligence and healthy tension are the ingredients of success, not failure.
Srikeit, I'll unfortunately miss your talk on Saturday as I'll be at the hackathon. But I look forward to hearing about it and hopefully catching up on Friday. :-)
On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 1:08 PM, Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org wrote:
And - to stay with the sandbox metaphor from another thread - if the majority of contributors to a university-based program in India can reach won't be able to contribute at an acceptable quality in WP proper, then perhaps it's also time to think about more aggressive sandboxing of contributions early in the game, at least when we're dealing with a course where we either don't know what to expect, or we _do_ based on experiences like the one to date. Possibly even using an external sandbox.
If I understand it rightly, Erik points out that one of the questions raised here is the validity of the University-centric approach to this program.
Hisham will recall I had queried this approach at a meetup way back when. This was before I found that it had a history, being a successful initiative in another milieu. I am sure now, with this experience, we can find ways to make the program work more effectively here, one possibility (not the only one) being shedding the college campus-centric focus, and reaching out more widely to people, in order to welcome more people within the contributory fold. As Abhilash points out, this was a pilot, and it is up to us to evaluate its learnings and move forward from it, not trash it or its participants.
+1
Also enough of fault finding has been done I guess, lets move to "Solution" now. We ll definitely come back, and we ll come back with a greater impact in which everyone's participation is expected. So henceforth please give solutions rather than finding faults.
Sincerely, A Wikipedian Campus Ambassador.
On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 4:26 PM, Vickram Crishna vvcrishna@radiophony.comwrote:
On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 1:08 PM, Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org wrote:
And - to stay with the sandbox metaphor from another thread - if the majority of contributors to a university-based program in India can reach won't be able to contribute at an acceptable quality in WP proper, then perhaps it's also time to think about more aggressive sandboxing of contributions early in the game, at least when we're dealing with a course where we either don't know what to expect, or we _do_ based on experiences like the one to date. Possibly even using an external sandbox.
If I understand it rightly, Erik points out that one of the questions raised here is the validity of the University-centric approach to this program.
Hisham will recall I had queried this approach at a meetup way back when. This was before I found that it had a history, being a successful initiative in another milieu. I am sure now, with this experience, we can find ways to make the program work more effectively here, one possibility (not the only one) being shedding the college campus-centric focus, and reaching out more widely to people, in order to welcome more people within the contributory fold. As Abhilash points out, this was a pilot, and it is up to us to evaluate its learnings and move forward from it, not trash it or its participants.
-- Vickram Fool On The Hill http://communicall.wordpress.com
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On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 4:26 PM, Vickram Crishna vvcrishna@radiophony.com wrote:
On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 1:08 PM, Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org wrote:
And - to stay with the sandbox metaphor from another thread - if the majority of contributors to a university-based program in India can reach won't be able to contribute at an acceptable quality in WP proper, then perhaps it's also time to think about more aggressive sandboxing of contributions early in the game, at least when we're dealing with a course where we either don't know what to expect, or we _do_ based on experiences like the one to date. Possibly even using an external sandbox.
If I understand it rightly, Erik points out that one of the questions raised here is the validity of the University-centric approach to this program. Hisham will recall I had queried this approach at a meetup way back when. This was before I found that it had a history, being a successful initiative in another milieu. I am sure now, with this experience, we can find ways to make the program work more effectively here, one possibility (not the only one) being shedding the college campus-centric focus, and reaching out more widely to people, in order to welcome more people within the contributory fold. As Abhilash points out, this was a pilot, and it is up to us to evaluate its learnings and move forward from it, not trash it or its participants. -- Vickram
+1 Vickram.
I shared the same concerns on assignment based university centric model. In addition I had concerns with omitting indic language wiki contributions from Pune Pilot , which i tried to express in an IRC meetup. Lets move forward with the learnings, but with wide consultations on improved programme plan with the involvement of communities .
This whole story , reminds me some experience in FOSS domain
When we are volunteering with Free software movement , to spread FOSS in various campuses, the first info we used to provide after any presentation while reaching out to a new campus is sharing information on how to join in local LUG , or initiate a LUG in college. During the same time, companies like SUN was appointing campus ambassadors, and pumping money to promote their open source initiatives, but in a non-collaborative way,through direct links with college administration. Many times FOSS Activists have to fight with this approach of Campus Ambassadors, who does not value the movement or community to get permission for holding a programme in campus . But over time, what sustained is FOSS community initiatives and their mode of budding new developers .
Anivar
+1
From one another of those silent spectator or quiet one.. :)
A pilot program is undertaken to always test the situation and gauge how it would deliver in a real life situation. That is exactly why it is known as a pilot or a UAT or a test.
With due respect to others in the thread, whoever has been expressing their opinions and thoughts, lets be honest about the fact that the Pune Pilot has been a success, a resounding success. The pilot was intended to be a learning experience and you should be taking back that learning to fine tune the future initiatives. It needs to be gauged on the learning that has been gained and nothing else, absolutely nothing else should be the benchmark.
Let us only look at what has been gained and not at what has been lost. May be that is the Indian mentality, but that is a mentality which is encouraging for all those CA's to contribute further and evolve themselves as better Wikipedians.
Abhi
On 15-Nov-2011 9:52 AM, Hisham wrote:
Hi Folks
I'm deliberately opening a new mail chain on this. This is at the risk of me being told off for doing so - but I believe that email protocol is one thing - but communication philosophy is (arguably) even more critical.
I (and personally upsetting to me, others at India Programs - namely Nitika & the Campus Ambassadors) have taken some beating over the past few days. Some has been personal and not been circumspect or constructive; not pretty. I have been touched by the offlist messages of comfort and support that I and the others have got.
I am exceedingly worried about the impact it has had on team morale. To all those who have criticised the India Education Program, spare a thought for the volunteers who have helped out on this. I want to tell the Campus Ambassadors to be strong and keep your chins up. You guys have been incredible. Hand on heart, you have given your hearts and souls and have conducted probably the single biggest Wikipedia outreach program in the world. (btw, I really don't care if someone wants to tag this as {citation required.}) You have taken time out of your working lives and college days. I know how tough it's been - conducting more than 100 in-class sessions, working with so many students and faculty, reaching out on email and talk pages and SMS and mobile calls and social networks and in canteens, poring over student entries, learning Wikipedia policies, figuring out new tools to help your work, building relationships with other editors across the globe, doing the back-breaking documentation that's been required on project & course pages, and I can go on and on and on. I know that sustaining this level of motivation and energy over months has been hard on you. I also know some of you faltered. I know some of you wanted to scream and kick someone some times, maybe even many people many times! Keep the faith, guys.
I am sorry for the personal attack on Nitika. To her, I want to publicly apologise. I know her to be hard-working, diligent, honest, competent and an all-round professional. She's new and she's learning and has and will make mistakes - like all of us do. It is fantastic to have her on the team. Period.
The program is a pilot - and we made a ton of mistakes. Sorry, let me rephrase that. I led the initiative so all responsibility should be mine. I made a ton of mistakes. I promise the following. We will have a thorough, honest and fact based evaluation. We will be open to make all the changes that are required. We will not let the events of the past few days force us into a bunker mentality. We will be open and we will be intellectually rigorous. We will learn and we will improve. The India opportunity is massive - and our ambitions are huge. It is also fraught with challenges. Unless we try and do things - new and tough and complex things - we will never be able to realise our true potential.
I know that some who have participated in these exchanges are driven by an awe-inspiring love and passion for Wikipedia. I urge you to continue to come forward and work with others and us. Come forward early though - and stay engaged through the journey. It will have ups and downs.
On communication, I urge everyone to maintain WP:CIVILITY and WP:NPOV in all our interactions. On this - and to be fair - quite a few other interactions recently on totally unrelated topics (and involving a whole host of others), I daresay we have drifted from core Wikipedia principles. These should apply to us to all our community's interactions as religiously as we apply them to our projects.
I would urge folks who agree with me to write back. Even a +1 will do. Let's hear the voices of the quieter folks. Let's hear from the folks who don't always get involved in mailing list exchanges out of either apprehension or apathy. Let's move forward.
Warm Regards,
hisham
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