As we have top-down infrastructure now, I think we should make mvf eligible now. (Supposing they could write it, as it's the case with ASL.) [1]
Note that there two times more Mongols in Inner Mongolia than they are in Mongolia itself, as well as they are using Mongolian traditional script. As it turned out that there it's not reasonable to tell them to wait for transliteration/translation engine, I think it's reasonable to make it eligible.
Others?
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Language_committee#.22Wikipedia_Mongoli...
Agreed, it seems sensible to make https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Mongoli... eligible now.
2016-01-15 7:14 GMT+01:00 Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com:
As we have top-down infrastructure now, I think we should make mvf eligible now. (Supposing they could write it, as it's the case with ASL.) [1]
Note that there two times more Mongols in Inner Mongolia than they are in Mongolia itself, as well as they are using Mongolian traditional script. As it turned out that there it's not reasonable to tell them to wait for transliteration/translation engine, I think it's reasonable to make it eligible.
Others?
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Language_committee#.22Wikipedia_Mongoli...
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
Hoi, Why have a Wikipedia where the only difference is a different script? So far we did not accept that. Thanks, GerardM
On 16 January 2016 at 00:10, MF-Warburg mfwarburg@googlemail.com wrote:
Agreed, it seems sensible to make https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Mongoli... eligible now.
2016-01-15 7:14 GMT+01:00 Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com:
As we have top-down infrastructure now, I think we should make mvf eligible now. (Supposing they could write it, as it's the case with ASL.) [1]
Note that there two times more Mongols in Inner Mongolia than they are in Mongolia itself, as well as they are using Mongolian traditional script. As it turned out that there it's not reasonable to tell them to wait for transliteration/translation engine, I think it's reasonable to make it eligible.
Others?
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Language_committee#.22Wikipedia_Mongoli...
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 6:28 PM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Why have a Wikipedia where the only difference is a different script? So far we did not accept that.
If you want a formal requirement, present Mongolian Wikipedia is using "mo" as ISO 639-1 substitute for "khk", while they are asking for "mvf".
Hoi, mo is a catch all and includes all the ISO-639-3 codes. Our policy has been that the community may decide on this. Thanks, GerardM
On 16 January 2016 at 18:36, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 6:28 PM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Why have a Wikipedia where the only difference is a different script? So
far
we did not accept that.
If you want a formal requirement, present Mongolian Wikipedia is using "mo" as ISO 639-1 substitute for "khk", while they are asking for "mvf".
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
I see no opposition by the native speakers neither here [1] or here [2]. Actually, one admin of mo.wp strongly supported it [1][3].
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Mongoli... [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Mongoli... [3] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:MongolWiki
On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 6:50 PM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, mo is a catch all and includes all the ISO-639-3 codes. Our policy has been that the community may decide on this. Thanks, GerardM
On 16 January 2016 at 18:36, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 6:28 PM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Why have a Wikipedia where the only difference is a different script? So far we did not accept that.
If you want a formal requirement, present Mongolian Wikipedia is using "mo" as ISO 639-1 substitute for "khk", while they are asking for "mvf".
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
On 16 Jan 2016, at 17:28, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Why have a Wikipedia where the only difference is a different script? So far we did not accept that.
I have ALWAYS suggested that it is a good idea. Automatic transliteration from caseless scripts to caseless ones is impossible. Automatic transliteration from scripts that leave out vowels is also.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
+1 I think we may have to revise our policy to allow those cases where automatic transliteration is impossible, even if script is the only difference. Of course, community decision rules supreme on that (i.e. if a wiki community wants to allow both within one wiki, we wouldn't force a split on them). Could we agree on that?
Oliver
On 16-Jan-16 10:48 PM, Michael Everson wrote:
On 16 Jan 2016, at 17:28, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Why have a Wikipedia where the only difference is a different script? So far we did not accept that.
I have ALWAYS suggested that it is a good idea. Automatic transliteration from caseless scripts to caseless ones is impossible. Automatic transliteration from scripts that leave out vowels is also.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
Hoi, So far we have proven bad at changing our rules. There are several projects waiting for "the nod" and, it is not happening. We could change our ways by allowing for good arguments, persuasive arguments. I would be swayed when other arguments get considerations.
One argument is when a chapter a relevant organisation supports a new project and will invest time and resources to lift a project of the ground particularly when this is a Wikisource. Thanks, GerardM
On 16 January 2016 at 21:02, Oliver Stegen oliver_stegen@sil.org wrote:
+1 I think we may have to revise our policy to allow those cases where automatic transliteration is impossible, even if script is the only difference. Of course, community decision rules supreme on that (i.e. if a wiki community wants to allow both within one wiki, we wouldn't force a split on them). Could we agree on that?
Oliver
On 16-Jan-16 10:48 PM, Michael Everson wrote:
On 16 Jan 2016, at 17:28, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Why have a Wikipedia where the only difference is a different script? So far we did not accept that.
I have ALWAYS suggested that it is a good idea. Automatic transliteration from caseless scripts to caseless ones is impossible. Automatic transliteration from scripts that leave out vowels is also.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
On 17 Jan 2016, at 07:35, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
So far we have proven bad at changing our rules.
As far as I know you’re the only one who really wants to keep this particular rule. If Automatic transliteration is impossible, don’t force it on anyone.
There are several projects waiting for "the nod" and, it is not happening.
Which are these?
We could change our ways by allowing for good arguments, persuasive arguments. I would be swayed when other arguments get considerations.
Persuasive arguments include accuracy. It’s an encyclopaedia. Serbian can be converted flawlessly. Caseless/Casing scripts cannot. Ever.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
On Jan 17, 2016 16:20, "Michael Everson" everson@evertype.com wrote:
On 17 Jan 2016, at 07:35, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
wrote:
There are several projects waiting for "the nod" and, it is not
happening.
Which are these?
I know for one, but the context is quite different and I am pretty well introduced into situation.
It's about Azerbaijani written in Perso-Arabic script.
Young Azerbaijanis from Iran prefer Latin script. Literacy rate among older is very low. Azerbaijani Wikipedia allows articles in both scripts.
But, most importantly, we have Iranian Azerbaijani among highly involved Wikimedians (a steward, member of the Election committee etc.), Mardetanha. His close friends (thus, Iranians, as well) actually lead Azerbaijani Wikipedia. Thus, asking for a new project on such basis is much more about POV-pushing than allowing a group to have a Wikipedia in their native written language.
If something has changed and the core of Iranian Azerbaijani Wikimedians are in favor of creating Azerbaijani Wikipedia in Arabic script, I will support it.
In contrast to this, the admin of the present Mongolian Wikipedia strongly supports creation of "Inner Mongolian Wikipedia", as well as I didn't see any objection by any Mongolian Wikipedian. Obviously, because there are deeper cultural differences between them than between Azerbaijanis.
Milos, azb.wikipedia.org became live a few months ago, and it's pretty active ;)
The current code for the Cyrillic Mongolian Wikipedia is mn, not mo (mo is Moldovan, which is also a mess, but a different one).
To the main issue of the thread: I totally support the creation of a Wikipedia in the vertical Mongolian script. To the best of my knowledge, that's the script used in Inner Mongolia, _although_ I don't know how widely. I suspect that it's used in print, but that its web presence is very small and this Wikipedia may turn out to be one of the very first websites in it. Whoever does it, will probably have to break a lot of new ground technically, It's not a blocker, but it is a thing to be aware of. On of the first things to do would be to install the vertical MediaWiki support somewhere on a Wikimedia cluster; I think that the ASL wiki is on a separate site somewhere. But this, again, is a technicality, not a blocker.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2016-01-17 18:49 GMT+02:00 Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com:
On Jan 17, 2016 16:20, "Michael Everson" everson@evertype.com wrote:
On 17 Jan 2016, at 07:35, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
wrote:
There are several projects waiting for "the nod" and, it is not
happening.
Which are these?
I know for one, but the context is quite different and I am pretty well introduced into situation.
It's about Azerbaijani written in Perso-Arabic script.
Young Azerbaijanis from Iran prefer Latin script. Literacy rate among older is very low. Azerbaijani Wikipedia allows articles in both scripts.
But, most importantly, we have Iranian Azerbaijani among highly involved Wikimedians (a steward, member of the Election committee etc.), Mardetanha. His close friends (thus, Iranians, as well) actually lead Azerbaijani Wikipedia. Thus, asking for a new project on such basis is much more about POV-pushing than allowing a group to have a Wikipedia in their native written language.
If something has changed and the core of Iranian Azerbaijani Wikimedians are in favor of creating Azerbaijani Wikipedia in Arabic script, I will support it.
In contrast to this, the admin of the present Mongolian Wikipedia strongly supports creation of "Inner Mongolian Wikipedia", as well as I didn't see any objection by any Mongolian Wikipedian. Obviously, because there are deeper cultural differences between them than between Azerbaijanis.
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
On 1/17/16 1:57 PM, Amir E. Aharoni wrote:
To the main issue of the thread: I totally support the creation of a Wikipedia in the vertical Mongolian script. ... On of the first things to do would be to install the vertical MediaWiki support somewhere on a Wikimedia cluster; I think that the ASL wiki is on a separate site somewhere.
The ASL Wikipedia is on Incubator. https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/ase
Yair Rand made the vertical MediaWiki support possible on Incubator using custom CSS. The same technique should be possible for vertical Mongolian.
Regards, -Steve
As a followup, it appears like some people aren't waiting for us, which is mostly good.
There's something like looks like a MediaWiki installation with _probably_ something like a Wikipedia: http://wiki.uhaan.com/
(It's mentioned on https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Language_committee#.22Wikipedia_Mongoli... )
The text appears vertically to me in Chrome, but not in Firefox (I think it's fixable in Firefox, too, with correct CSS).
A lot of the interface is de-facto translated. Technically, I think that they actually modified MediaWiki's translation files for Chinese, but the text is Vertical Mongolian. This means that The translation that they did should be integrated ASAP with upstream MediaWiki, and when that is done, their translatewiki.net statistics will quickly go high, probably making them pass the localization percentage test.
So it's _almost_ at a state where we could not only declare it eligible, but approve moving it out of Incubator to its own full domain.
In case it wasn't clear, I definitely support making it eligible. (But of course, incubator activity will have to be measured separately again.)
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2016-01-17 21:57 GMT+02:00 Amir E. Aharoni amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il:
Milos, azb.wikipedia.org became live a few months ago, and it's pretty active ;)
The current code for the Cyrillic Mongolian Wikipedia is mn, not mo (mo is Moldovan, which is also a mess, but a different one).
To the main issue of the thread: I totally support the creation of a Wikipedia in the vertical Mongolian script. To the best of my knowledge, that's the script used in Inner Mongolia, _although_ I don't know how widely. I suspect that it's used in print, but that its web presence is very small and this Wikipedia may turn out to be one of the very first websites in it. Whoever does it, will probably have to break a lot of new ground technically, It's not a blocker, but it is a thing to be aware of. On of the first things to do would be to install the vertical MediaWiki support somewhere on a Wikimedia cluster; I think that the ASL wiki is on a separate site somewhere. But this, again, is a technicality, not a blocker.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2016-01-17 18:49 GMT+02:00 Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com:
On Jan 17, 2016 16:20, "Michael Everson" everson@evertype.com wrote:
On 17 Jan 2016, at 07:35, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
wrote:
There are several projects waiting for "the nod" and, it is not
happening.
Which are these?
I know for one, but the context is quite different and I am pretty well introduced into situation.
It's about Azerbaijani written in Perso-Arabic script.
Young Azerbaijanis from Iran prefer Latin script. Literacy rate among older is very low. Azerbaijani Wikipedia allows articles in both scripts.
But, most importantly, we have Iranian Azerbaijani among highly involved Wikimedians (a steward, member of the Election committee etc.), Mardetanha. His close friends (thus, Iranians, as well) actually lead Azerbaijani Wikipedia. Thus, asking for a new project on such basis is much more about POV-pushing than allowing a group to have a Wikipedia in their native written language.
If something has changed and the core of Iranian Azerbaijani Wikimedians are in favor of creating Azerbaijani Wikipedia in Arabic script, I will support it.
In contrast to this, the admin of the present Mongolian Wikipedia strongly supports creation of "Inner Mongolian Wikipedia", as well as I didn't see any objection by any Mongolian Wikipedian. Obviously, because there are deeper cultural differences between them than between Azerbaijanis.
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
Hoi, Ok let us do this. Thanks, Gerard
On 22 January 2016 at 10:03, Amir E. Aharoni amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il wrote:
As a followup, it appears like some people aren't waiting for us, which is mostly good.
There's something like looks like a MediaWiki installation with _probably_ something like a Wikipedia: http://wiki.uhaan.com/
(It's mentioned on https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Language_committee#.22Wikipedia_Mongoli... )
The text appears vertically to me in Chrome, but not in Firefox (I think it's fixable in Firefox, too, with correct CSS).
A lot of the interface is de-facto translated. Technically, I think that they actually modified MediaWiki's translation files for Chinese, but the text is Vertical Mongolian. This means that The translation that they did should be integrated ASAP with upstream MediaWiki, and when that is done, their translatewiki.net statistics will quickly go high, probably making them pass the localization percentage test.
So it's _almost_ at a state where we could not only declare it eligible, but approve moving it out of Incubator to its own full domain.
In case it wasn't clear, I definitely support making it eligible. (But of course, incubator activity will have to be measured separately again.)
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2016-01-17 21:57 GMT+02:00 Amir E. Aharoni amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il:
Milos, azb.wikipedia.org became live a few months ago, and it's pretty active ;)
The current code for the Cyrillic Mongolian Wikipedia is mn, not mo (mo is Moldovan, which is also a mess, but a different one).
To the main issue of the thread: I totally support the creation of a Wikipedia in the vertical Mongolian script. To the best of my knowledge, that's the script used in Inner Mongolia, _although_ I don't know how widely. I suspect that it's used in print, but that its web presence is very small and this Wikipedia may turn out to be one of the very first websites in it. Whoever does it, will probably have to break a lot of new ground technically, It's not a blocker, but it is a thing to be aware of. On of the first things to do would be to install the vertical MediaWiki support somewhere on a Wikimedia cluster; I think that the ASL wiki is on a separate site somewhere. But this, again, is a technicality, not a blocker.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2016-01-17 18:49 GMT+02:00 Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com:
On Jan 17, 2016 16:20, "Michael Everson" everson@evertype.com wrote:
On 17 Jan 2016, at 07:35, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
wrote:
There are several projects waiting for "the nod" and, it is not
happening.
Which are these?
I know for one, but the context is quite different and I am pretty well introduced into situation.
It's about Azerbaijani written in Perso-Arabic script.
Young Azerbaijanis from Iran prefer Latin script. Literacy rate among older is very low. Azerbaijani Wikipedia allows articles in both scripts.
But, most importantly, we have Iranian Azerbaijani among highly involved Wikimedians (a steward, member of the Election committee etc.), Mardetanha. His close friends (thus, Iranians, as well) actually lead Azerbaijani Wikipedia. Thus, asking for a new project on such basis is much more about POV-pushing than allowing a group to have a Wikipedia in their native written language.
If something has changed and the core of Iranian Azerbaijani Wikimedians are in favor of creating Azerbaijani Wikipedia in Arabic script, I will support it.
In contrast to this, the admin of the present Mongolian Wikipedia strongly supports creation of "Inner Mongolian Wikipedia", as well as I didn't see any objection by any Mongolian Wikipedian. Obviously, because there are deeper cultural differences between them than between Azerbaijanis.
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom