Hi Roger,
I feel sorry for you that you have the feeling that you went out for nothing. However, you did surely add to the wealth - having multiple photos of something is also worth something.
A categorization project sounds great, but should probably not be called 'wiki loves monuments' to avoid confusion. It is also much less useful to new users, the main target group of Wiki Loves Monuments. We shouldn't bother them with Commons' horrible categorization structure - they should just identify what is on their photo, and we can (automagically) take it from there thanks to the (to be built) database.
If you want to motivate people from our communities to categorize pictures, that would be a nice project in its own right. Perhaps it would be nice to do *before* wiki loves monuments - so that both get maximum effect?
Lodewijk
No dia 30 de Janeiro de 2012 15:29, Roger Bamkin victuallers@gmail.comescreveu:
*Anecdotal story*: My wife decided to take me outside for a trip and asked where I wanted to go. I'd recently seen a tool by Magnus Mankse called *Shoot me* which lists out all the wiki articles geo tagged near you that lacked pics. So I quickly went
http://toolserver.org/~magnus/wikishootme/index.html
and that listed out half a dozen useful places near me that lacked pics. We went out .... took the pics and when I went to load them I found out that all these pictures already existed ..... they were uncategorised, but there. I think I loaded some *new* pix but I'm not sure I added much to "the wealth".
So if our objective is to "supply everything to everyone" (paraphrase our vision), then first we need a copy of everything. It could be that we already have a copy of nearly everything if we could just sort out what we had and what we lacked. However the chances of running a successful UK categorisation project is low..... or is it?
Do you know I just typed the last sentence and realised that that is what we want. *We want a categorisation project*. What we know will appeal is a successful photography project. Hmmm
UK WIKI LOVES MONUMENTS* - wacky proposal
Prize goes to the b*est five media files in a complete Wiki-Commons-Category*
Entrants will ensure that they use a valid commons category for a village, road, type of monuments etc. They will populate that category with as many photos and videos and sounds as possible. They are invited to add their own pictures, viideo and sounds but also to collect as many freely sourced files they can find from other sources too.
Judges will look at wikimedia commons pages, wikipedia, wikisource etc pages that use or could use these resources. They will choose the winning category and the five media files that best illustrate its reason for winning. This is a "beauty" competition that is is not just based on the quality of the media but also the quantity, meta data and completeness of the chosen category.
So thats an idea for what might work Please feel free to ignore, delete or modify
On 30 January 2012 11:46, Gordon Joly gordon.joly@pobox.com wrote:
I may have missed the point.. but.... doesn't this article need expanding urgently? I feel these types of articles should be expanded routinely (Grade I listed buildings).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**Harmondsworth_Barnhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmondsworth_Barn
In the news currently because English Heritage have just bought it.
Perhaps it should look more like this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**House_Millhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_Mill
And, yes, I will edit the article - REAL SOON NOW.
Gordo
--
Gordon Joly gordon.joly@pobox.com http://www.joly.org.uk/ Don't Leave Space To The Professionals!
______________________________**_________________ Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-lhttp://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
-- Roger Bamkin Chair WMUK http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Board 01332 702993 0758 2020815 Google+:Victuallers Skype:Victuallers1 Flickr:Victuallers2
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
On 30 January 2012 14:59, Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org wrote:
A categorization project sounds great, but should probably not be called 'wiki loves monuments' to avoid confusion.
Mmmm, yes, how about "UK Wikimedians are not entirely indifferent to proper subcategorisation of photos (outdoor or in) on a vaguely monumental theme". That could get them queuing round the block.
Charles
"The Great Wiki Loves Monuments Sort-a-Thon - it's a monumental task!"
Perhaps that's a bit too cringeworthy....
Richard Symonds Office& Development Manager Wikimedia UK +44 (0)207 065 0991
On 30/01/2012 16:11, Charles Matthews wrote:
On 30 January 2012 14:59, Lodewijk <lodewijk@effeietsanders.org mailto:lodewijk@effeietsanders.org> wrote:
A categorization project sounds great, but should probably not be called 'wiki loves monuments' to avoid confusion.Mmmm, yes, how about "UK Wikimedians are not entirely indifferent to proper subcategorisation of photos (outdoor or in) on a vaguely monumental theme". That could get them queuing round the block.
Charles
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
*UK Wikimedians are not entirely indifferent to proper subcategorisation of photos (outdoor or in) on a vaguely monumental theme* - lol
Well that was a useful push at the linits of what is possible as I knew you thought that the rules were flexible. I'm feeling on this thread that we need to know why we are gathering more pics when we have so many.
One appeal in WLM was to see the blip of new users on commons that WLM delivered. I only offer the categorisation project because that is where we have a large backlog. I know the category model is tricky but surely its a problem we cannot allow newbies to ignore? Otherwise our categorisation problems gets worse.
We are saying that we should ask people to take pictures of things that we don't have pictures of ..... but we have no idea which things we don't have pictures of.
What would you say were the main benefits of WLM. to the UK given that we do have thousands and thousands of photos that are uncategorised?
On 30 January 2012 14:59, Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org wrote:
Hi Roger,
I feel sorry for you that you have the feeling that you went out for nothing. However, you did surely add to the wealth - having multiple photos of something is also worth something.
A categorization project sounds great, but should probably not be called 'wiki loves monuments' to avoid confusion. It is also much less useful to new users, the main target group of Wiki Loves Monuments. We shouldn't bother them with Commons' horrible categorization structure - they should just identify what is on their photo, and we can (automagically) take it from there thanks to the (to be built) database.
If you want to motivate people from our communities to categorize pictures, that would be a nice project in its own right. Perhaps it would be nice to do *before* wiki loves monuments - so that both get maximum effect?
Lodewijk
No dia 30 de Janeiro de 2012 15:29, Roger Bamkin victuallers@gmail.comescreveu:
*Anecdotal story*: My wife decided to take me outside for a trip and asked where I wanted to go. I'd recently seen a tool by Magnus Mankse called *Shoot me* which lists out all the wiki articles geo tagged near you that lacked pics. So I quickly went
http://toolserver.org/~magnus/wikishootme/index.html
and that listed out half a dozen useful places near me that lacked pics. We went out .... took the pics and when I went to load them I found out that all these pictures already existed ..... they were uncategorised, but there. I think I loaded some *new* pix but I'm not sure I added much to "the wealth".
So if our objective is to "supply everything to everyone" (paraphrase our vision), then first we need a copy of everything. It could be that we already have a copy of nearly everything if we could just sort out what we had and what we lacked. However the chances of running a successful UK categorisation project is low..... or is it?
Do you know I just typed the last sentence and realised that that is what we want. *We want a categorisation project*. What we know will appeal is a successful photography project. Hmmm
UK WIKI LOVES MONUMENTS* - wacky proposal
Prize goes to the b*est five media files in a complete Wiki-Commons-Category*
Entrants will ensure that they use a valid commons category for a village, road, type of monuments etc. They will populate that category with as many photos and videos and sounds as possible. They are invited to add their own pictures, viideo and sounds but also to collect as many freely sourced files they can find from other sources too.
Judges will look at wikimedia commons pages, wikipedia, wikisource etc pages that use or could use these resources. They will choose the winning category and the five media files that best illustrate its reason for winning. This is a "beauty" competition that is is not just based on the quality of the media but also the quantity, meta data and completeness of the chosen category.
So thats an idea for what might work Please feel free to ignore, delete or modify
On 30 January 2012 11:46, Gordon Joly gordon.joly@pobox.com wrote:
I may have missed the point.. but.... doesn't this article need expanding urgently? I feel these types of articles should be expanded routinely (Grade I listed buildings).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**Harmondsworth_Barnhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmondsworth_Barn
In the news currently because English Heritage have just bought it.
Perhaps it should look more like this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**House_Millhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_Mill
And, yes, I will edit the article - REAL SOON NOW.
Gordo
--
Gordon Joly gordon.joly@pobox.com http://www.joly.org.uk/ Don't Leave Space To The Professionals!
______________________________**_________________ Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-lhttp://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
-- Roger Bamkin Chair WMUK http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Board 01332 702993 0758 2020815 Google+:Victuallers Skype:Victuallers1 Flickr:Victuallers2
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
I know this will probably make things worse, but if all our (read:relevant for UK monuments) images had a geolocation, we could just see on a map what we have, and thus what we lack.
Now all we need is an easy way to add locations to files...
Magnus
On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 4:22 PM, Roger Bamkin victuallers@gmail.com wrote:
UK Wikimedians are not entirely indifferent to proper subcategorisation of photos (outdoor or in) on a vaguely monumental theme - lol
Well that was a useful push at the linits of what is possible as I knew you thought that the rules were flexible. I'm feeling on this thread that we need to know why we are gathering more pics when we have so many.
One appeal in WLM was to see the blip of new users on commons that WLM delivered. I only offer the categorisation project because that is where we have a large backlog. I know the category model is tricky but surely its a problem we cannot allow newbies to ignore? Otherwise our categorisation problems gets worse.
We are saying that we should ask people to take pictures of things that we don't have pictures of ..... but we have no idea which things we don't have pictures of.
What would you say were the main benefits of WLM. to the UK given that we do have thousands and thousands of photos that are uncategorised?
On 30 January 2012 14:59, Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org wrote:
Hi Roger,
I feel sorry for you that you have the feeling that you went out for nothing. However, you did surely add to the wealth - having multiple photos of something is also worth something.
A categorization project sounds great, but should probably not be called 'wiki loves monuments' to avoid confusion. It is also much less useful to new users, the main target group of Wiki Loves Monuments. We shouldn't bother them with Commons' horrible categorization structure - they should just identify what is on their photo, and we can (automagically) take it from there thanks to the (to be built) database.
If you want to motivate people from our communities to categorize pictures, that would be a nice project in its own right. Perhaps it would be nice to do *before* wiki loves monuments - so that both get maximum effect?
Lodewijk
No dia 30 de Janeiro de 2012 15:29, Roger Bamkin victuallers@gmail.com escreveu:
Anecdotal story: My wife decided to take me outside for a trip and asked where I wanted to go. I'd recently seen a tool by Magnus Mankse called Shoot me which lists out all the wiki articles geo tagged near you that lacked pics. So I quickly went
http://toolserver.org/~magnus/wikishootme/index.html
and that listed out half a dozen useful places near me that lacked pics. We went out .... took the pics and when I went to load them I found out that all these pictures already existed ..... they were uncategorised, but there. I think I loaded some *new* pix but I'm not sure I added much to "the wealth".
So if our objective is to "supply everything to everyone" (paraphrase our vision), then first we need a copy of everything. It could be that we already have a copy of nearly everything if we could just sort out what we had and what we lacked. However the chances of running a successful UK categorisation project is low..... or is it?
Do you know I just typed the last sentence and realised that that is what we want. We want a categorisation project. What we know will appeal is a successful photography project. Hmmm
UK WIKI LOVES MONUMENTS - wacky proposal
Prize goes to the best five media files in a complete Wiki-Commons-Category
Entrants will ensure that they use a valid commons category for a village, road, type of monuments etc. They will populate that category with as many photos and videos and sounds as possible. They are invited to add their own pictures, viideo and sounds but also to collect as many freely sourced files they can find from other sources too.
Judges will look at wikimedia commons pages, wikipedia, wikisource etc pages that use or could use these resources. They will choose the winning category and the five media files that best illustrate its reason for winning. This is a "beauty" competition that is is not just based on the quality of the media but also the quantity, meta data and completeness of the chosen category.
So thats an idea for what might work Please feel free to ignore, delete or modify
On 30 January 2012 11:46, Gordon Joly gordon.joly@pobox.com wrote:
I may have missed the point.. but.... doesn't this article need expanding urgently? I feel these types of articles should be expanded routinely (Grade I listed buildings).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmondsworth_Barn
In the news currently because English Heritage have just bought it.
Perhaps it should look more like this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_Mill
And, yes, I will edit the article - REAL SOON NOW.
Gordo
--
Gordon Joly gordon.joly@pobox.com http://www.joly.org.uk/ Don't Leave Space To The Professionals!
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
-- Roger Bamkin Chair WMUK 01332 702993 0758 2020815 Google+:Victuallers Skype:Victuallers1 Flickr:Victuallers2
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
-- Roger Bamkin Chair WMUK 01332 702993 0758 2020815 Google+:Victuallers Skype:Victuallers1 Flickr:Victuallers2
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
Hi Roger,
I think there are indeed a few things that characterize a 'Wiki Loves Monuments' - amongst those is, that it is a photo competition about monuments :) Hence, if categorizing would be the main activity, it would make a lot more sense indeed to find a different name. It would have nothing to do any more with 'flexible rules', but rather an entirely different concept. Which doesn't make it a bad idea though.
Wiki Loves Monuments is a great way to get quite good quality pictures of monumental buildings. Even though you have many uncategorized images, there are definitely going to be many locations still without a good quality picture. At the same time, a big benefit is that you make a large group of people (especially amateur photographers) aware that Wikipedia is editable, which gives you an opportunity (not a garantuee) that they can be persuaded to stick around. Additionally it is a nice opportunity to work together with a different kind of partners, but I understand that you have no scarcity there.
As far as I know, Maarten is currently trying to run a lot of the categorization automated, and that seems to be going well although it will take quite a while before it is finished.
But yes, you will have definitely to ask yourself the question whether you want to run this competition at all. Most Wikipedians I heard so far on this topic seem indeed to be mainly worried about categorization, and find that of the most importance (please correct me when I'm wrong). Just don't get the impression that this potential audience that is out there (heritage enthusiasts, photographers) which you might be able to motivate for Wiki Loves Monuments, will be similarly interested in a 'categorization contest'. So far, I have met 1 non-Wikipedian interested in categorization. Ever. And he was only interested because he once did a paper or something on the topic :)
So to put it simple: there is an opportunity to run a Wiki Loves Monuments in the UK. I personally think it is a great thing to do, and am happy to assist in any way possible to help you get it organized. But in the end, the enthusiasm and effort have to come from UK volunteers. I am not a categorization magician, so I can unfortunately not make that problem go away for you - even though I have tried to pull some strings and get other people take a look at it.
Running a categorization contest/event for the Wikipedians (because other people are unlikely to be interested) before the start of Wiki Loves Monuments sounds like a great idea, because the two can potentially reinforce each other. Imho mixing the two up would make things complicated, and weaken both ideas.
With kind regards, Lodewijk
No dia 30 de Janeiro de 2012 17:22, Roger Bamkin victuallers@gmail.comescreveu:
*UK Wikimedians are not entirely indifferent to proper subcategorisation of photos (outdoor or in) on a vaguely monumental theme* - lol
Well that was a useful push at the linits of what is possible as I knew you thought that the rules were flexible. I'm feeling on this thread that we need to know why we are gathering more pics when we have so many.
One appeal in WLM was to see the blip of new users on commons that WLM delivered. I only offer the categorisation project because that is where we have a large backlog. I know the category model is tricky but surely its a problem we cannot allow newbies to ignore? Otherwise our categorisation problems gets worse.
We are saying that we should ask people to take pictures of things that we don't have pictures of ..... but we have no idea which things we don't have pictures of.
What would you say were the main benefits of WLM. to the UK given that we do have thousands and thousands of photos that are uncategorised?
On 30 January 2012 14:59, Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org wrote:
Hi Roger,
I feel sorry for you that you have the feeling that you went out for nothing. However, you did surely add to the wealth - having multiple photos of something is also worth something.
A categorization project sounds great, but should probably not be called 'wiki loves monuments' to avoid confusion. It is also much less useful to new users, the main target group of Wiki Loves Monuments. We shouldn't bother them with Commons' horrible categorization structure - they should just identify what is on their photo, and we can (automagically) take it from there thanks to the (to be built) database.
If you want to motivate people from our communities to categorize pictures, that would be a nice project in its own right. Perhaps it would be nice to do *before* wiki loves monuments - so that both get maximum effect?
Lodewijk
No dia 30 de Janeiro de 2012 15:29, Roger Bamkin victuallers@gmail.comescreveu:
*Anecdotal story*: My wife decided to take me outside for a trip and asked where I wanted to go. I'd recently seen a tool by Magnus Mankse called *Shoot me* which lists out all the wiki articles geo tagged near you that lacked pics. So I quickly went
http://toolserver.org/~magnus/wikishootme/index.html
and that listed out half a dozen useful places near me that lacked pics. We went out .... took the pics and when I went to load them I found out that all these pictures already existed ..... they were uncategorised, but there. I think I loaded some *new* pix but I'm not sure I added much to "the wealth".
So if our objective is to "supply everything to everyone" (paraphrase our vision), then first we need a copy of everything. It could be that we already have a copy of nearly everything if we could just sort out what we had and what we lacked. However the chances of running a successful UK categorisation project is low..... or is it?
Do you know I just typed the last sentence and realised that that is what we want. *We want a categorisation project*. What we know will appeal is a successful photography project. Hmmm
UK WIKI LOVES MONUMENTS* - wacky proposal
Prize goes to the b*est five media files in a complete Wiki-Commons-Category*
Entrants will ensure that they use a valid commons category for a village, road, type of monuments etc. They will populate that category with as many photos and videos and sounds as possible. They are invited to add their own pictures, viideo and sounds but also to collect as many freely sourced files they can find from other sources too.
Judges will look at wikimedia commons pages, wikipedia, wikisource etc pages that use or could use these resources. They will choose the winning category and the five media files that best illustrate its reason for winning. This is a "beauty" competition that is is not just based on the quality of the media but also the quantity, meta data and completeness of the chosen category.
So thats an idea for what might work Please feel free to ignore, delete or modify
On 30 January 2012 11:46, Gordon Joly gordon.joly@pobox.com wrote:
I may have missed the point.. but.... doesn't this article need expanding urgently? I feel these types of articles should be expanded routinely (Grade I listed buildings).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**Harmondsworth_Barnhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmondsworth_Barn
In the news currently because English Heritage have just bought it.
Perhaps it should look more like this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**House_Millhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_Mill
And, yes, I will edit the article - REAL SOON NOW.
Gordo
--
Gordon Joly gordon.joly@pobox.com http://www.joly.org.uk/ Don't Leave Space To The Professionals!
______________________________**_________________ Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-lhttp://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
-- Roger Bamkin Chair WMUK http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Board 01332 702993 0758 2020815 Google+:Victuallers Skype:Victuallers1 Flickr:Victuallers2
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
-- Roger Bamkin Chair WMUK http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Board 01332 702993 0758 2020815 Google+:Victuallers Skype:Victuallers1 Flickr:Victuallers2
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
Thanks Lodewijk
I think thats a very good summary. Deciding what WLM is and what it isnt may shorten the debates. I'm not suprised that categorisation volunteers are thin on the ground. If it was fun then we wouldnt have the issue.
Useful to leave till London I think
regards Roger
PS Finding new voluteers/activists is a good target.( know the Russian WLM got some articles written as their QRpedia exhibition got me doing translation for them and a few others.
On 30 January 2012 17:21, Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org wrote:
Hi Roger,
I think there are indeed a few things that characterize a 'Wiki Loves Monuments' - amongst those is, that it is a photo competition about monuments :) Hence, if categorizing would be the main activity, it would make a lot more sense indeed to find a different name. It would have nothing to do any more with 'flexible rules', but rather an entirely different concept. Which doesn't make it a bad idea though.
Wiki Loves Monuments is a great way to get quite good quality pictures of monumental buildings. Even though you have many uncategorized images, there are definitely going to be many locations still without a good quality picture. At the same time, a big benefit is that you make a large group of people (especially amateur photographers) aware that Wikipedia is editable, which gives you an opportunity (not a garantuee) that they can be persuaded to stick around. Additionally it is a nice opportunity to work together with a different kind of partners, but I understand that you have no scarcity there.
As far as I know, Maarten is currently trying to run a lot of the categorization automated, and that seems to be going well although it will take quite a while before it is finished.
But yes, you will have definitely to ask yourself the question whether you want to run this competition at all. Most Wikipedians I heard so far on this topic seem indeed to be mainly worried about categorization, and find that of the most importance (please correct me when I'm wrong). Just don't get the impression that this potential audience that is out there (heritage enthusiasts, photographers) which you might be able to motivate for Wiki Loves Monuments, will be similarly interested in a 'categorization contest'. So far, I have met 1 non-Wikipedian interested in categorization. Ever. And he was only interested because he once did a paper or something on the topic :)
So to put it simple: there is an opportunity to run a Wiki Loves Monuments in the UK. I personally think it is a great thing to do, and am happy to assist in any way possible to help you get it organized. But in the end, the enthusiasm and effort have to come from UK volunteers. I am not a categorization magician, so I can unfortunately not make that problem go away for you - even though I have tried to pull some strings and get other people take a look at it.
Running a categorization contest/event for the Wikipedians (because other people are unlikely to be interested) before the start of Wiki Loves Monuments sounds like a great idea, because the two can potentially reinforce each other. Imho mixing the two up would make things complicated, and weaken both ideas.
With kind regards, Lodewijk
No dia 30 de Janeiro de 2012 17:22, Roger Bamkin victuallers@gmail.comescreveu:
*UK Wikimedians are not entirely indifferent to proper subcategorisation
of photos (outdoor or in) on a vaguely monumental theme* - lol
Well that was a useful push at the linits of what is possible as I knew you thought that the rules were flexible. I'm feeling on this thread that we need to know why we are gathering more pics when we have so many.
One appeal in WLM was to see the blip of new users on commons that WLM delivered. I only offer the categorisation project because that is where we have a large backlog. I know the category model is tricky but surely its a problem we cannot allow newbies to ignore? Otherwise our categorisation problems gets worse.
We are saying that we should ask people to take pictures of things that we don't have pictures of ..... but we have no idea which things we don't have pictures of.
What would you say were the main benefits of WLM. to the UK given that we do have thousands and thousands of photos that are uncategorised?
On 30 January 2012 14:59, Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org wrote:
Hi Roger,
I feel sorry for you that you have the feeling that you went out for nothing. However, you did surely add to the wealth - having multiple photos of something is also worth something.
A categorization project sounds great, but should probably not be called 'wiki loves monuments' to avoid confusion. It is also much less useful to new users, the main target group of Wiki Loves Monuments. We shouldn't bother them with Commons' horrible categorization structure - they should just identify what is on their photo, and we can (automagically) take it from there thanks to the (to be built) database.
If you want to motivate people from our communities to categorize pictures, that would be a nice project in its own right. Perhaps it would be nice to do *before* wiki loves monuments - so that both get maximum effect?
Lodewijk
No dia 30 de Janeiro de 2012 15:29, Roger Bamkin victuallers@gmail.comescreveu:
*Anecdotal story*: My wife decided to take me outside for a trip and asked where I wanted to go. I'd recently seen a tool by Magnus Mankse called *Shoot me* which lists out all the wiki articles geo tagged near you that lacked pics. So I quickly went
http://toolserver.org/~magnus/wikishootme/index.html
and that listed out half a dozen useful places near me that lacked pics. We went out .... took the pics and when I went to load them I found out that all these pictures already existed ..... they were uncategorised, but there. I think I loaded some *new* pix but I'm not sure I added much to "the wealth".
So if our objective is to "supply everything to everyone" (paraphrase our vision), then first we need a copy of everything. It could be that we already have a copy of nearly everything if we could just sort out what we had and what we lacked. However the chances of running a successful UK categorisation project is low..... or is it?
Do you know I just typed the last sentence and realised that that is what we want. *We want a categorisation project*. What we know will appeal is a successful photography project. Hmmm
UK WIKI LOVES MONUMENTS* - wacky proposal
Prize goes to the b*est five media files in a complete Wiki-Commons-Category*
Entrants will ensure that they use a valid commons category for a village, road, type of monuments etc. They will populate that category with as many photos and videos and sounds as possible. They are invited to add their own pictures, viideo and sounds but also to collect as many freely sourced files they can find from other sources too.
Judges will look at wikimedia commons pages, wikipedia, wikisource etc pages that use or could use these resources. They will choose the winning category and the five media files that best illustrate its reason for winning. This is a "beauty" competition that is is not just based on the quality of the media but also the quantity, meta data and completeness of the chosen category.
So thats an idea for what might work Please feel free to ignore, delete or modify
On 30 January 2012 11:46, Gordon Joly gordon.joly@pobox.com wrote:
I may have missed the point.. but.... doesn't this article need expanding urgently? I feel these types of articles should be expanded routinely (Grade I listed buildings).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**Harmondsworth_Barnhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmondsworth_Barn
In the news currently because English Heritage have just bought it.
Perhaps it should look more like this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**House_Millhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_Mill
And, yes, I will edit the article - REAL SOON NOW.
Gordo
--
Gordon Joly gordon.joly@pobox.com http://www.joly.org.uk/ Don't Leave Space To The Professionals!
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Yes we do have an idea what we don't have pictures of. Some articles are tagged with "image requested" (talk page) and have a geo-tag. ISTR a tool that combines these, but I may have imagined that.
Yes it will be frustrating if you take a photo only to find there are better one already on Commons. And yes the upload of 1.7 million image from the geograph mean that we have far more images from the UK and Ireland than I suspect anywhere else.
But there is an easier solution than trying to turn WLM into a categorisation exercise, all we need do is for WLM UK ask people to search first and look for gaps. If some of them do a bit of categorisation when they search that would be a bonus, but not an "official" part of WLM.
The recent change to Catalot combined with various bots means that our rate of digestion of the backlog has improved, and I think that a few percent will have been done by September, though that does mean that many categories for counties, cities and common structures will have thousands of images. Strabane had 3,500 when I looked recently.
I think we could speed that up by a wiki skills event somewhat as Tom Morris detailed, but maybe more one to one sessions. I've taught people hotcat and catalot using my netbook in various meetups in pubs and pizza parlours. One of my suggestions for wikimania was a skill sharing lounge where people could teach each other various tools, and I suspect that such a session would be a useful and popular event for the office. The difference between categorising on commons with and without catalot is quite staggering and if we can encourage more editors to use such tools the categorisation backlog will be seriously dented.
WSC
On 30 January 2012 17:21, Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org wrote:
Hi Roger,
I think there are indeed a few things that characterize a 'Wiki Loves Monuments' - amongst those is, that it is a photo competition about monuments :) Hence, if categorizing would be the main activity, it would make a lot more sense indeed to find a different name. It would have nothing to do any more with 'flexible rules', but rather an entirely different concept. Which doesn't make it a bad idea though.
Wiki Loves Monuments is a great way to get quite good quality pictures of monumental buildings. Even though you have many uncategorized images, there are definitely going to be many locations still without a good quality picture. At the same time, a big benefit is that you make a large group of people (especially amateur photographers) aware that Wikipedia is editable, which gives you an opportunity (not a garantuee) that they can be persuaded to stick around. Additionally it is a nice opportunity to work together with a different kind of partners, but I understand that you have no scarcity there.
As far as I know, Maarten is currently trying to run a lot of the categorization automated, and that seems to be going well although it will take quite a while before it is finished.
But yes, you will have definitely to ask yourself the question whether you want to run this competition at all. Most Wikipedians I heard so far on this topic seem indeed to be mainly worried about categorization, and find that of the most importance (please correct me when I'm wrong). Just don't get the impression that this potential audience that is out there (heritage enthusiasts, photographers) which you might be able to motivate for Wiki Loves Monuments, will be similarly interested in a 'categorization contest'. So far, I have met 1 non-Wikipedian interested in categorization. Ever. And he was only interested because he once did a paper or something on the topic :)
So to put it simple: there is an opportunity to run a Wiki Loves Monuments in the UK. I personally think it is a great thing to do, and am happy to assist in any way possible to help you get it organized. But in the end, the enthusiasm and effort have to come from UK volunteers. I am not a categorization magician, so I can unfortunately not make that problem go away for you - even though I have tried to pull some strings and get other people take a look at it.
Running a categorization contest/event for the Wikipedians (because other people are unlikely to be interested) before the start of Wiki Loves Monuments sounds like a great idea, because the two can potentially reinforce each other. Imho mixing the two up would make things complicated, and weaken both ideas.
With kind regards, Lodewijk
No dia 30 de Janeiro de 2012 17:22, Roger Bamkin victuallers@gmail.comescreveu:
*UK Wikimedians are not entirely indifferent to proper subcategorisation
of photos (outdoor or in) on a vaguely monumental theme* - lol
Well that was a useful push at the linits of what is possible as I knew you thought that the rules were flexible. I'm feeling on this thread that we need to know why we are gathering more pics when we have so many.
One appeal in WLM was to see the blip of new users on commons that WLM delivered. I only offer the categorisation project because that is where we have a large backlog. I know the category model is tricky but surely its a problem we cannot allow newbies to ignore? Otherwise our categorisation problems gets worse.
We are saying that we should ask people to take pictures of things that we don't have pictures of ..... but we have no idea which things we don't have pictures of.
What would you say were the main benefits of WLM. to the UK given that we do have thousands and thousands of photos that are uncategorised?
On 30 January 2012 14:59, Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org wrote:
Hi Roger,
I feel sorry for you that you have the feeling that you went out for nothing. However, you did surely add to the wealth - having multiple photos of something is also worth something.
A categorization project sounds great, but should probably not be called 'wiki loves monuments' to avoid confusion. It is also much less useful to new users, the main target group of Wiki Loves Monuments. We shouldn't bother them with Commons' horrible categorization structure - they should just identify what is on their photo, and we can (automagically) take it from there thanks to the (to be built) database.
If you want to motivate people from our communities to categorize pictures, that would be a nice project in its own right. Perhaps it would be nice to do *before* wiki loves monuments - so that both get maximum effect?
Lodewijk
No dia 30 de Janeiro de 2012 15:29, Roger Bamkin victuallers@gmail.comescreveu:
*Anecdotal story*: My wife decided to take me outside for a trip and asked where I wanted to go. I'd recently seen a tool by Magnus Mankse called *Shoot me* which lists out all the wiki articles geo tagged near you that lacked pics. So I quickly went
http://toolserver.org/~magnus/wikishootme/index.html
and that listed out half a dozen useful places near me that lacked pics. We went out .... took the pics and when I went to load them I found out that all these pictures already existed ..... they were uncategorised, but there. I think I loaded some *new* pix but I'm not sure I added much to "the wealth".
So if our objective is to "supply everything to everyone" (paraphrase our vision), then first we need a copy of everything. It could be that we already have a copy of nearly everything if we could just sort out what we had and what we lacked. However the chances of running a successful UK categorisation project is low..... or is it?
Do you know I just typed the last sentence and realised that that is what we want. *We want a categorisation project*. What we know will appeal is a successful photography project. Hmmm
UK WIKI LOVES MONUMENTS* - wacky proposal
Prize goes to the b*est five media files in a complete Wiki-Commons-Category*
Entrants will ensure that they use a valid commons category for a village, road, type of monuments etc. They will populate that category with as many photos and videos and sounds as possible. They are invited to add their own pictures, viideo and sounds but also to collect as many freely sourced files they can find from other sources too.
Judges will look at wikimedia commons pages, wikipedia, wikisource etc pages that use or could use these resources. They will choose the winning category and the five media files that best illustrate its reason for winning. This is a "beauty" competition that is is not just based on the quality of the media but also the quantity, meta data and completeness of the chosen category.
So thats an idea for what might work Please feel free to ignore, delete or modify
On 30 January 2012 11:46, Gordon Joly gordon.joly@pobox.com wrote:
I may have missed the point.. but.... doesn't this article need expanding urgently? I feel these types of articles should be expanded routinely (Grade I listed buildings).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**Harmondsworth_Barnhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmondsworth_Barn
In the news currently because English Heritage have just bought it.
Perhaps it should look more like this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**House_Millhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_Mill
And, yes, I will edit the article - REAL SOON NOW.
Gordo
--
Gordon Joly gordon.joly@pobox.com http://www.joly.org.uk/ Don't Leave Space To The Professionals!
______________________________**_________________ Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-lhttp://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
-- Roger Bamkin Chair WMUK http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Board 01332 702993 0758 2020815 Google+:Victuallers Skype:Victuallers1 Flickr:Victuallers2
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
-- Roger Bamkin Chair WMUK http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Board 01332 702993 0758 2020815 Google+:Victuallers Skype:Victuallers1 Flickr:Victuallers2
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
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On 3 February 2012 16:40, WereSpielChequers werespielchequers@gmail.com wrote:
I think we could speed that up by a wiki skills event somewhat as Tom Morris detailed, but maybe more one to one sessions. I've taught people hotcat and catalot using my netbook in various meetups in pubs and pizza parlours. One of my suggestions for wikimania was a skill sharing lounge where people could teach each other various tools, and I suspect that such a session would be a useful and popular event for the office. The difference between categorising on commons with and without catalot is quite staggering and if we can encourage more editors to use such tools the categorisation backlog will be seriously dented.
I'm wondering if anyone wants to join in with a proposal to have one Wikimania session in DC as a skills sharing thing? Or how we would convince the Wikimania organisers that we need less pontificating and more training? ;-)
Hi Tom,
There's only one way to find out. http://wikimania2012.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Skillshare
WSC
On 3 February 2012 16:56, Tom Morris tom@tommorris.org wrote:
On 3 February 2012 16:40, WereSpielChequers werespielchequers@gmail.com wrote:
I think we could speed that up by a wiki skills event somewhat as Tom
Morris
detailed, but maybe more one to one sessions. I've taught people hotcat
and
catalot using my netbook in various meetups in pubs and pizza parlours.
One
of my suggestions for wikimania was a skill sharing lounge where people could teach each other various tools, and I suspect that such a session would be a useful and popular event for the office. The difference
between
categorising on commons with and without catalot is quite staggering and
if
we can encourage more editors to use such tools the categorisation
backlog
will be seriously dented.
I'm wondering if anyone wants to join in with a proposal to have one Wikimania session in DC as a skills sharing thing? Or how we would convince the Wikimania organisers that we need less pontificating and more training? ;-)
-- Tom Morris http://tommorris.org/
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
Also, there's a tool for that [1]...
Magnus
[1] http://tools.wikimedia.de/~magnus/fist.php
On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 2:59 PM, Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org wrote:
Hi Roger,
I feel sorry for you that you have the feeling that you went out for nothing. However, you did surely add to the wealth - having multiple photos of something is also worth something.
A categorization project sounds great, but should probably not be called 'wiki loves monuments' to avoid confusion. It is also much less useful to new users, the main target group of Wiki Loves Monuments. We shouldn't bother them with Commons' horrible categorization structure - they should just identify what is on their photo, and we can (automagically) take it from there thanks to the (to be built) database.
If you want to motivate people from our communities to categorize pictures, that would be a nice project in its own right. Perhaps it would be nice to do *before* wiki loves monuments - so that both get maximum effect?
Lodewijk
No dia 30 de Janeiro de 2012 15:29, Roger Bamkin victuallers@gmail.com escreveu:
Anecdotal story: My wife decided to take me outside for a trip and asked where I wanted to go. I'd recently seen a tool by Magnus Mankse called Shoot me which lists out all the wiki articles geo tagged near you that lacked pics. So I quickly went
http://toolserver.org/~magnus/wikishootme/index.html
and that listed out half a dozen useful places near me that lacked pics. We went out .... took the pics and when I went to load them I found out that all these pictures already existed ..... they were uncategorised, but there. I think I loaded some *new* pix but I'm not sure I added much to "the wealth".
So if our objective is to "supply everything to everyone" (paraphrase our vision), then first we need a copy of everything. It could be that we already have a copy of nearly everything if we could just sort out what we had and what we lacked. However the chances of running a successful UK categorisation project is low..... or is it?
Do you know I just typed the last sentence and realised that that is what we want. We want a categorisation project. What we know will appeal is a successful photography project. Hmmm
UK WIKI LOVES MONUMENTS - wacky proposal
Prize goes to the best five media files in a complete Wiki-Commons-Category
Entrants will ensure that they use a valid commons category for a village, road, type of monuments etc. They will populate that category with as many photos and videos and sounds as possible. They are invited to add their own pictures, viideo and sounds but also to collect as many freely sourced files they can find from other sources too.
Judges will look at wikimedia commons pages, wikipedia, wikisource etc pages that use or could use these resources. They will choose the winning category and the five media files that best illustrate its reason for winning. This is a "beauty" competition that is is not just based on the quality of the media but also the quantity, meta data and completeness of the chosen category.
So thats an idea for what might work Please feel free to ignore, delete or modify
On 30 January 2012 11:46, Gordon Joly gordon.joly@pobox.com wrote:
I may have missed the point.. but.... doesn't this article need expanding urgently? I feel these types of articles should be expanded routinely (Grade I listed buildings).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmondsworth_Barn
In the news currently because English Heritage have just bought it.
Perhaps it should look more like this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_Mill
And, yes, I will edit the article - REAL SOON NOW.
Gordo
--
Gordon Joly gordon.joly@pobox.com http://www.joly.org.uk/ Don't Leave Space To The Professionals!
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
-- Roger Bamkin Chair WMUK 01332 702993 0758 2020815 Google+:Victuallers Skype:Victuallers1 Flickr:Victuallers2
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
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