Hey, This is a notification that I started the discussion of closing Northern Luri Wikipedia: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects/Closure_of_No...
I have asked again from different people, and again I got "we don't understand this and we can't read it". Mardetanha independently asked too and he also got the same thing. Funnily enough, some people told me that they don't speak Luri (they are Kuridish or Lak) and they actually can understand the wiki which puts us in the similar situation of scowiki but with no hope that we can fix the wiki.
Now some new users are being created to oppose the closure discussion, it seems they are at least meatpuppet: https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Meta:Requests_for_CheckUser_inf...
I also got some private messages that I can share with the committee if needed.
Also I ask the committee to reconsider eligibility of Northern Luri Wiknews: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikinews_Northern...
Best
I don't know where to say this but it seems people are creating attack posts in instagram against me, calling me Pan-Persian and "faggot" and etc. Calling for people to go and write on the page or respond to my tweets saying they understand the wiki.
Here's an example: https://www.instagram.com/p/CF15M5insF_/
On Thu, Oct 1, 2020 at 6:52 PM Amir Sarabadani ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
Hey, This is a notification that I started the discussion of closing Northern Luri Wikipedia:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects/Closure_of_No...
I have asked again from different people, and again I got "we don't understand this and we can't read it". Mardetanha independently asked too and he also got the same thing. Funnily enough, some people told me that they don't speak Luri (they are Kuridish or Lak) and they actually can understand the wiki which puts us in the similar situation of scowiki but with no hope that we can fix the wiki.
Now some new users are being created to oppose the closure discussion, it seems they are at least meatpuppet: https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Meta:Requests_for_CheckUser_inf...
I also got some private messages that I can share with the committee if needed.
Also I ask the committee to reconsider eligibility of Northern Luri Wiknews: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikinews_Northern...
Best
Amir (he/him)
So sorry you're getting abuse over this Amir, that is really undeserved. Looking through my archives, there was much more discussion than usual about the (Northern) Luri Wikipedia when it was proposed for approval. I think it would be worthwhile for us to try to find independent linguists to confirm that the language is indeed not the one it is purported to be, and add that to the proposal for closure.
tir. 6. okt. 2020 kl. 00:15 skrev Amir Sarabadani ladsgroup@gmail.com:
I don't know where to say this but it seems people are creating attack posts in instagram against me, calling me Pan-Persian and "faggot" and etc. Calling for people to go and write on the page or respond to my tweets saying they understand the wiki.
Here's an example: https://www.instagram.com/p/CF15M5insF_/
On Thu, Oct 1, 2020 at 6:52 PM Amir Sarabadani ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
Hey, This is a notification that I started the discussion of closing Northern Luri Wikipedia:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects/Closure_of_No...
I have asked again from different people, and again I got "we don't understand this and we can't read it". Mardetanha independently asked too and he also got the same thing. Funnily enough, some people told me that they don't speak Luri (they are Kuridish or Lak) and they actually can understand the wiki which puts us in the similar situation of scowiki but with no hope that we can fix the wiki.
Now some new users are being created to oppose the closure discussion, it seems they are at least meatpuppet: https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Meta:Requests_for_CheckUser_inf...
I also got some private messages that I can share with the committee if needed.
Also I ask the committee to reconsider eligibility of Northern Luri Wiknews: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikinews_Northern...
Best
Amir (he/him)
-- Amir (he/him)
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
Two things: * I have asked a friend who studies in Tehran university (top university in humanitarian sciences like linguistics in Iran) to ask his friends to ask their professors to take a look and give their opinion. I will tell them to send their email here. I don't know what they are going to say, I don't even know who that person would be. I hope that's impartial enough. * Actually the attack post gave me a clue. It had a hashtag like "#LakIsLur" or "LakiIsLuri". And this actually helps clear the smoke and mirrors a bit. From the definition of Laki in Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laki_language:
Laki; (Kurdish: لەکی, لکي ,Lekî, Persian: لکی) is a vernacular that constitutes of two dialects; Pish-e Kuh Laki and Posht-e Kuh Laki.[6] Laki is considered a Kurdish dialect,[3][7][8][9][10][11][12] by most linguists,[4] while others argue that Laki is closely related to Kurdish but refrain from deciding its place among the Northwestern Iranian languages.[6] Laki has also been classified as a Lur dialect, but speakers of Luri claim that Laki is "difficult or impossible to understand".[7] Linguist Shahsavari argues that Laki is sometimes seen as 'a transitional dialect between Kurdish and Luri'.[13]
I think that's why Kurdish people say they understand the wiki while Lur people say they don't. There is a wiki of Laki in incubator actually: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/lki
The Iranian government considers Laki a separate language and not a dialect of Kurdish which Kurdish activists strongly criticized as a way to oppress Kurdish people in Iran by splitting them to subgroups (one of the reason for oppression of Kurdish people is that they are mostly Sunni but Lur and Lak people are mostly Shiite similar to the government's official religion which would explain why some Lak people are insistent to be identified as Lur and not Kurd). I'm sorry this is getting so complicated and convoluted to geopolitical issues and identity matters but that happens with every language, especially in the Middle east (and I don't claim I understand even half of it). At the end, this doesn't matter and I need to wait for the professor to take a look and shed some light on it.
Thanks
On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 2:11 PM Jon Harald Søby jhsoby@gmail.com wrote:
So sorry you're getting abuse over this Amir, that is really undeserved. Looking through my archives, there was much more discussion than usual about the (Northern) Luri Wikipedia when it was proposed for approval. I think it would be worthwhile for us to try to find independent linguists to confirm that the language is indeed not the one it is purported to be, and add that to the proposal for closure.
tir. 6. okt. 2020 kl. 00:15 skrev Amir Sarabadani ladsgroup@gmail.com:
I don't know where to say this but it seems people are creating attack posts in instagram against me, calling me Pan-Persian and "faggot" and etc. Calling for people to go and write on the page or respond to my tweets saying they understand the wiki.
Here's an example: https://www.instagram.com/p/CF15M5insF_/
On Thu, Oct 1, 2020 at 6:52 PM Amir Sarabadani ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
Hey, This is a notification that I started the discussion of closing Northern Luri Wikipedia:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects/Closure_of_No...
I have asked again from different people, and again I got "we don't understand this and we can't read it". Mardetanha independently asked too and he also got the same thing. Funnily enough, some people told me that they don't speak Luri (they are Kuridish or Lak) and they actually can understand the wiki which puts us in the similar situation of scowiki but with no hope that we can fix the wiki.
Now some new users are being created to oppose the closure discussion, it seems they are at least meatpuppet: https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Meta:Requests_for_CheckUser_inf...
I also got some private messages that I can share with the committee if needed.
Also I ask the committee to reconsider eligibility of Northern Luri Wiknews: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikinews_Northern...
Best
Amir (he/him)
-- Amir (he/him)
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
-- mvh Jon Harald Søby _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
If it turns out the pages in the Wikipedia are actually content in another language/language variation, then it seems like the proper action is to rename and redirect the wiki. But can this be achieved?
在 2020年10月8日週四 11:15，Amir Sarabadani ladsgroup@gmail.com 寫道：
Two things:
- I have asked a friend who studies in Tehran university (top university
in humanitarian sciences like linguistics in Iran) to ask his friends to ask their professors to take a look and give their opinion. I will tell them to send their email here. I don't know what they are going to say, I don't even know who that person would be. I hope that's impartial enough.
- Actually the attack post gave me a clue. It had a hashtag like
"#LakIsLur" or "LakiIsLuri". And this actually helps clear the smoke and mirrors a bit. From the definition of Laki in Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laki_language:
Laki; (Kurdish: لەکی, لکي ,Lekî, Persian: لکی) is a vernacular that constitutes of two dialects; Pish-e Kuh Laki and Posht-e Kuh Laki.[6] Laki is considered a Kurdish dialect,[3][7][8][9][10][11][12] by most linguists,[4] while others argue that Laki is closely related to Kurdish but refrain from deciding its place among the Northwestern Iranian languages.[6] Laki has also been classified as a Lur dialect, but speakers of Luri claim that Laki is "difficult or impossible to understand".[7] Linguist Shahsavari argues that Laki is sometimes seen as 'a transitional dialect between Kurdish and Luri'.[13]
I think that's why Kurdish people say they understand the wiki while Lur people say they don't. There is a wiki of Laki in incubator actually: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/lki
The Iranian government considers Laki a separate language and not a dialect of Kurdish which Kurdish activists strongly criticized as a way to oppress Kurdish people in Iran by splitting them to subgroups (one of the reason for oppression of Kurdish people is that they are mostly Sunni but Lur and Lak people are mostly Shiite similar to the government's official religion which would explain why some Lak people are insistent to be identified as Lur and not Kurd). I'm sorry this is getting so complicated and convoluted to geopolitical issues and identity matters but that happens with every language, especially in the Middle east (and I don't claim I understand even half of it). At the end, this doesn't matter and I need to wait for the professor to take a look and shed some light on it.
Thanks
On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 2:11 PM Jon Harald Søby jhsoby@gmail.com wrote:
So sorry you're getting abuse over this Amir, that is really undeserved. Looking through my archives, there was much more discussion than usual about the (Northern) Luri Wikipedia when it was proposed for approval. I think it would be worthwhile for us to try to find independent linguists to confirm that the language is indeed not the one it is purported to be, and add that to the proposal for closure.
tir. 6. okt. 2020 kl. 00:15 skrev Amir Sarabadani ladsgroup@gmail.com:
I don't know where to say this but it seems people are creating attack posts in instagram against me, calling me Pan-Persian and "faggot" and etc. Calling for people to go and write on the page or respond to my tweets saying they understand the wiki.
Here's an example: https://www.instagram.com/p/CF15M5insF_/
On Thu, Oct 1, 2020 at 6:52 PM Amir Sarabadani ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
Hey, This is a notification that I started the discussion of closing Northern Luri Wikipedia:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects/Closure_of_No...
I have asked again from different people, and again I got "we don't understand this and we can't read it". Mardetanha independently asked too and he also got the same thing. Funnily enough, some people told me that they don't speak Luri (they are Kuridish or Lak) and they actually can understand the wiki which puts us in the similar situation of scowiki but with no hope that we can fix the wiki.
Now some new users are being created to oppose the closure discussion, it seems they are at least meatpuppet: https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Meta:Requests_for_CheckUser_inf...
I also got some private messages that I can share with the committee if needed.
Also I ask the committee to reconsider eligibility of Northern Luri Wiknews: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikinews_Northern...
Best
Amir (he/him)
-- Amir (he/him)
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
-- mvh Jon Harald Søby _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
-- Amir (he/him)
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
Hoi, This is not the first time we had to deal with similar issues. The end result was everything between the Wiki was deleted, the texts were revisited to make it consistent for the language and what is indeed an option, have it included in a different language.
Essential in the understanding is that the identity of an ISO 639 language code is separate from what activists have to say. It is about the definition given for that language by the organisation that maintains the standard.
Different from a Wiktionary, a Wikipedia has to be in the language as indicated there is little/nothing to salvage from a text in whatever gobbledigook. Thanks, GerardM
On Thu, 8 Oct 2020 at 08:01, Phake Nick c933103@gmail.com wrote:
If it turns out the pages in the Wikipedia are actually content in another language/language variation, then it seems like the proper action is to rename and redirect the wiki. But can this be achieved?
在 2020年10月8日週四 11:15，Amir Sarabadani ladsgroup@gmail.com 寫道：
Two things:
- I have asked a friend who studies in Tehran university (top university
in humanitarian sciences like linguistics in Iran) to ask his friends to ask their professors to take a look and give their opinion. I will tell them to send their email here. I don't know what they are going to say, I don't even know who that person would be. I hope that's impartial enough.
- Actually the attack post gave me a clue. It had a hashtag like
"#LakIsLur" or "LakiIsLuri". And this actually helps clear the smoke and mirrors a bit. From the definition of Laki in Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laki_language:
Laki; (Kurdish: لەکی, لکي ,Lekî, Persian: لکی) is a vernacular that constitutes of two dialects; Pish-e Kuh Laki and Posht-e Kuh Laki.[6] Laki is considered a Kurdish dialect,[3][7][8][9][10][11][12] by most linguists,[4] while others argue that Laki is closely related to Kurdish but refrain from deciding its place among the Northwestern Iranian languages.[6] Laki has also been classified as a Lur dialect, but speakers of Luri claim that Laki is "difficult or impossible to understand".[7] Linguist Shahsavari argues that Laki is sometimes seen as 'a transitional dialect between Kurdish and Luri'.[13]
I think that's why Kurdish people say they understand the wiki while Lur people say they don't. There is a wiki of Laki in incubator actually: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/lki
The Iranian government considers Laki a separate language and not a dialect of Kurdish which Kurdish activists strongly criticized as a way to oppress Kurdish people in Iran by splitting them to subgroups (one of the reason for oppression of Kurdish people is that they are mostly Sunni but Lur and Lak people are mostly Shiite similar to the government's official religion which would explain why some Lak people are insistent to be identified as Lur and not Kurd). I'm sorry this is getting so complicated and convoluted to geopolitical issues and identity matters but that happens with every language, especially in the Middle east (and I don't claim I understand even half of it). At the end, this doesn't matter and I need to wait for the professor to take a look and shed some light on it.
Thanks
On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 2:11 PM Jon Harald Søby jhsoby@gmail.com wrote:
So sorry you're getting abuse over this Amir, that is really undeserved. Looking through my archives, there was much more discussion than usual about the (Northern) Luri Wikipedia when it was proposed for approval. I think it would be worthwhile for us to try to find independent linguists to confirm that the language is indeed not the one it is purported to be, and add that to the proposal for closure.
tir. 6. okt. 2020 kl. 00:15 skrev Amir Sarabadani ladsgroup@gmail.com:
I don't know where to say this but it seems people are creating attack posts in instagram against me, calling me Pan-Persian and "faggot" and etc. Calling for people to go and write on the page or respond to my tweets saying they understand the wiki.
Here's an example: https://www.instagram.com/p/CF15M5insF_/
On Thu, Oct 1, 2020 at 6:52 PM Amir Sarabadani ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
Hey, This is a notification that I started the discussion of closing Northern Luri Wikipedia:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects/Closure_of_No...
I have asked again from different people, and again I got "we don't understand this and we can't read it". Mardetanha independently asked too and he also got the same thing. Funnily enough, some people told me that they don't speak Luri (they are Kuridish or Lak) and they actually can understand the wiki which puts us in the similar situation of scowiki but with no hope that we can fix the wiki.
Now some new users are being created to oppose the closure discussion, it seems they are at least meatpuppet: https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Meta:Requests_for_CheckUser_inf...
I also got some private messages that I can share with the committee if needed.
Also I ask the committee to reconsider eligibility of Northern Luri Wiknews: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikinews_Northern...
Best
Amir (he/him)
-- Amir (he/him)
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
-- mvh Jon Harald Søby _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
-- Amir (he/him)
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
I forward below a mail from Mogoeilor which maybe is also relevant to this distinction? -- Hey, The discussion started by user Amir Sarabadani was last mentioned on February 1, 2016 please see lrc wiki https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/langcom/2016-February/thread.html and has been rejected with strong arguments.Luri Wikipedia has a writing system that has an educational book and several printed texts with this script. Yes, the that user(Mardetanha) mentioned by Amir Sarabadani, whose mother tongue is not Luri at all and they do not understand LUri. Also, regarding the second claim of Amir Sarabadani, I should mention that Luri Khorramabadi, with whom this wiki is written, Laki has 70% lexical commonalities, also the Luri language is a continuum between Persian and Kurdish, so it is not surprising that Kurdish users understand the language of the texts of this wiki. I should also note that the wiki uses words and expressions used by the nomadic and rural people of Lur. It is said that it is natural for a Persian speaker not to understand these texts because the language of the villagers and nomads of Lur is more intact than the language of the people in the areas where the Lors live. Regarding meatpuppet, I have to say that I am not aware of this issue and this issue has probably been created due to responding to the call of user Amir Sarabadani to close luri wikipedia. Dear members of the language committee, if you wish, I can send you the calligraphy training book file used in this Wikipedia. Thank you.
Am Do., 8. Okt. 2020 um 05:15 Uhr schrieb Amir Sarabadani < ladsgroup@gmail.com>:
Two things:
- I have asked a friend who studies in Tehran university (top university
in humanitarian sciences like linguistics in Iran) to ask his friends to ask their professors to take a look and give their opinion. I will tell them to send their email here. I don't know what they are going to say, I don't even know who that person would be. I hope that's impartial enough.
- Actually the attack post gave me a clue. It had a hashtag like
"#LakIsLur" or "LakiIsLuri". And this actually helps clear the smoke and mirrors a bit. From the definition of Laki in Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laki_language:
Laki; (Kurdish: لەکی, لکي ,Lekî, Persian: لکی) is a vernacular that constitutes of two dialects; Pish-e Kuh Laki and Posht-e Kuh Laki.[6] Laki is considered a Kurdish dialect,[3][7][8][9][10][11][12] by most linguists,[4] while others argue that Laki is closely related to Kurdish but refrain from deciding its place among the Northwestern Iranian languages.[6] Laki has also been classified as a Lur dialect, but speakers of Luri claim that Laki is "difficult or impossible to understand".[7] Linguist Shahsavari argues that Laki is sometimes seen as 'a transitional dialect between Kurdish and Luri'.[13]
I think that's why Kurdish people say they understand the wiki while Lur people say they don't. There is a wiki of Laki in incubator actually: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/lki
The Iranian government considers Laki a separate language and not a dialect of Kurdish which Kurdish activists strongly criticized as a way to oppress Kurdish people in Iran by splitting them to subgroups (one of the reason for oppression of Kurdish people is that they are mostly Sunni but Lur and Lak people are mostly Shiite similar to the government's official religion which would explain why some Lak people are insistent to be identified as Lur and not Kurd). I'm sorry this is getting so complicated and convoluted to geopolitical issues and identity matters but that happens with every language, especially in the Middle east (and I don't claim I understand even half of it). At the end, this doesn't matter and I need to wait for the professor to take a look and shed some light on it.
Thanks
On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 2:11 PM Jon Harald Søby jhsoby@gmail.com wrote:
So sorry you're getting abuse over this Amir, that is really undeserved. Looking through my archives, there was much more discussion than usual about the (Northern) Luri Wikipedia when it was proposed for approval. I think it would be worthwhile for us to try to find independent linguists to confirm that the language is indeed not the one it is purported to be, and add that to the proposal for closure.
tir. 6. okt. 2020 kl. 00:15 skrev Amir Sarabadani ladsgroup@gmail.com:
I don't know where to say this but it seems people are creating attack posts in instagram against me, calling me Pan-Persian and "faggot" and etc. Calling for people to go and write on the page or respond to my tweets saying they understand the wiki.
Here's an example: https://www.instagram.com/p/CF15M5insF_/
On Thu, Oct 1, 2020 at 6:52 PM Amir Sarabadani ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
Hey, This is a notification that I started the discussion of closing Northern Luri Wikipedia:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects/Closure_of_No...
I have asked again from different people, and again I got "we don't understand this and we can't read it". Mardetanha independently asked too and he also got the same thing. Funnily enough, some people told me that they don't speak Luri (they are Kuridish or Lak) and they actually can understand the wiki which puts us in the similar situation of scowiki but with no hope that we can fix the wiki.
Now some new users are being created to oppose the closure discussion, it seems they are at least meatpuppet: https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Meta:Requests_for_CheckUser_inf...
I also got some private messages that I can share with the committee if needed.
Also I ask the committee to reconsider eligibility of Northern Luri Wiknews: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikinews_Northern...
Best
Amir (he/him)
-- Amir (he/him)
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
-- mvh Jon Harald Søby _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
-- Amir (he/him)
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
Thanks. Beside the general note that I'm requesting for closure not because I don't understand the wiki (I don't understand Chinese Wikipedia, I'm not requesting for its closure though, even several Iranian languages like ckb that I don't understand, I'm actually helping them to get on their feet, like see my bot's edits on ckbwiki https://ckb.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%AA%D8%A7%DB%8C%D8%A8%DB%95%D8%AA:%D8%A8%DB%95%D8%B4%D8%AF%D8%A7%D8%B1%DB%8C%DB%8C%DB%95%DA%A9%D8%A7%D9%86/Dexbot) but I'm requesting on the grounds that no Lur person I have talked to (from diverse backgrounds, ages, rural/urban backgrounds, different regions, etc.) couldn't understand the wiki. Actually fun fact, my then-roommate in university dorm is Lur and from Khorramabad and he was one of the first ones who said he couldn't understand it. Laki and Luri Khorramabadi are completely different things.
Regarding renaming the wiki: (My sysadmin hat on) It's basically impossible. We only renamed be-x-old to be-tarask and it still causing issues (last month all interwiki links to be-tarask broke), I have some plans to improve it, especially handling of discrepancies between the dbname and dns name but it's going to take a while. Also a rename is only redirecting the traffic from dns, the database name stays the same (and it's definitely unchangeable for lots of reasons, let me know if you want to know more). So if we rename lrc.wikipedia.org to lki.wikipedia.org, it still will be named lrcwiki in the database and prevents us from having an actual lrcwiki if the time comes. (My sysadmin hat off). I don't understand the content but I have a feeling it's not very much salvageable even for the lkiwiki (Imagine pretending to be German Wikipedia but actually being written in Dutch, it shows itself in the content too).
Thank you for reading my long emails :D
On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 10:59 AM MF-Warburg mfwarburg@googlemail.com wrote:
I forward below a mail from Mogoeilor which maybe is also relevant to this distinction? -- Hey, The discussion started by user Amir Sarabadani was last mentioned on February 1, 2016 please see lrc wiki https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/langcom/2016-February/thread.html and has been rejected with strong arguments.Luri Wikipedia has a writing system that has an educational book and several printed texts with this script. Yes, the that user(Mardetanha) mentioned by Amir Sarabadani, whose mother tongue is not Luri at all and they do not understand LUri. Also, regarding the second claim of Amir Sarabadani, I should mention that Luri Khorramabadi, with whom this wiki is written, Laki has 70% lexical commonalities, also the Luri language is a continuum between Persian and Kurdish, so it is not surprising that Kurdish users understand the language of the texts of this wiki. I should also note that the wiki uses words and expressions used by the nomadic and rural people of Lur. It is said that it is natural for a Persian speaker not to understand these texts because the language of the villagers and nomads of Lur is more intact than the language of the people in the areas where the Lors live. Regarding meatpuppet, I have to say that I am not aware of this issue and this issue has probably been created due to responding to the call of user Amir Sarabadani to close luri wikipedia. Dear members of the language committee, if you wish, I can send you the calligraphy training book file used in this Wikipedia. Thank you.
Am Do., 8. Okt. 2020 um 05:15 Uhr schrieb Amir Sarabadani < ladsgroup@gmail.com>:
Two things:
- I have asked a friend who studies in Tehran university (top university
in humanitarian sciences like linguistics in Iran) to ask his friends to ask their professors to take a look and give their opinion. I will tell them to send their email here. I don't know what they are going to say, I don't even know who that person would be. I hope that's impartial enough.
- Actually the attack post gave me a clue. It had a hashtag like
"#LakIsLur" or "LakiIsLuri". And this actually helps clear the smoke and mirrors a bit. From the definition of Laki in Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laki_language:
Laki; (Kurdish: لەکی, لکي ,Lekî, Persian: لکی) is a vernacular that constitutes of two dialects; Pish-e Kuh Laki and Posht-e Kuh Laki.[6] Laki is considered a Kurdish dialect,[3][7][8][9][10][11][12] by most linguists,[4] while others argue that Laki is closely related to Kurdish but refrain from deciding its place among the Northwestern Iranian languages.[6] Laki has also been classified as a Lur dialect, but speakers of Luri claim that Laki is "difficult or impossible to understand".[7] Linguist Shahsavari argues that Laki is sometimes seen as 'a transitional dialect between Kurdish and Luri'.[13]
I think that's why Kurdish people say they understand the wiki while Lur people say they don't. There is a wiki of Laki in incubator actually: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/lki
The Iranian government considers Laki a separate language and not a dialect of Kurdish which Kurdish activists strongly criticized as a way to oppress Kurdish people in Iran by splitting them to subgroups (one of the reason for oppression of Kurdish people is that they are mostly Sunni but Lur and Lak people are mostly Shiite similar to the government's official religion which would explain why some Lak people are insistent to be identified as Lur and not Kurd). I'm sorry this is getting so complicated and convoluted to geopolitical issues and identity matters but that happens with every language, especially in the Middle east (and I don't claim I understand even half of it). At the end, this doesn't matter and I need to wait for the professor to take a look and shed some light on it.
Thanks
On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 2:11 PM Jon Harald Søby jhsoby@gmail.com wrote:
So sorry you're getting abuse over this Amir, that is really undeserved. Looking through my archives, there was much more discussion than usual about the (Northern) Luri Wikipedia when it was proposed for approval. I think it would be worthwhile for us to try to find independent linguists to confirm that the language is indeed not the one it is purported to be, and add that to the proposal for closure.
tir. 6. okt. 2020 kl. 00:15 skrev Amir Sarabadani ladsgroup@gmail.com:
I don't know where to say this but it seems people are creating attack posts in instagram against me, calling me Pan-Persian and "faggot" and etc. Calling for people to go and write on the page or respond to my tweets saying they understand the wiki.
Here's an example: https://www.instagram.com/p/CF15M5insF_/
On Thu, Oct 1, 2020 at 6:52 PM Amir Sarabadani ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
Hey, This is a notification that I started the discussion of closing Northern Luri Wikipedia:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects/Closure_of_No...
I have asked again from different people, and again I got "we don't understand this and we can't read it". Mardetanha independently asked too and he also got the same thing. Funnily enough, some people told me that they don't speak Luri (they are Kuridish or Lak) and they actually can understand the wiki which puts us in the similar situation of scowiki but with no hope that we can fix the wiki.
Now some new users are being created to oppose the closure discussion, it seems they are at least meatpuppet: https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Meta:Requests_for_CheckUser_inf...
I also got some private messages that I can share with the committee if needed.
Also I ask the committee to reconsider eligibility of Northern Luri Wiknews: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikinews_Northern...
Best
Amir (he/him)
-- Amir (he/him)
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
-- mvh Jon Harald Søby _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
-- Amir (he/him)
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
Am Fr., 9. Okt. 2020 um 02:20 Uhr schrieb Amir Sarabadani < ladsgroup@gmail.com>:
Thanks. Beside the general note that I'm requesting for closure not because I don't understand the wiki (I don't understand Chinese Wikipedia, I'm not requesting for its closure though, even several Iranian languages like ckb that I don't understand, I'm actually helping them to get on their feet, like see my bot's edits on ckbwiki https://ckb.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%AA%D8%A7%DB%8C%D8%A8%DB%95%D8%AA:%D8%A8%DB%95%D8%B4%D8%AF%D8%A7%D8%B1%DB%8C%DB%8C%DB%95%DA%A9%D8%A7%D9%86/Dexbot) but I'm requesting on the grounds that no Lur person I have talked to (from diverse backgrounds, ages, rural/urban backgrounds, different regions, etc.) couldn't understand the wiki. Actually fun fact, my then-roommate in university dorm is Lur and from Khorramabad and he was one of the first ones who said he couldn't understand it. Laki and Luri Khorramabadi are completely different things.
Re your general note - that should be clear to everyone and I hope that the proponents of lrc.wikipedia don't come up with more such nonsense which only makes them look bad.
Regarding renaming the wiki: (My sysadmin hat on) It's basically impossible. We only renamed be-x-old to be-tarask and it still causing issues (last month all interwiki links to be-tarask broke), I have some plans to improve it, especially handling of discrepancies between the dbname and dns name but it's going to take a while. Also a rename is only redirecting the traffic from dns, the database name stays the same (and it's definitely unchangeable for lots of reasons, let me know if you want to know more). So if we rename lrc.wikipedia.org to lki.wikipedia.org, it still will be named lrcwiki in the database and prevents us from having an actual lrcwiki if the time comes. (My sysadmin hat off). I don't understand the content but I have a feeling it's not very much salvageable even for the lkiwiki (Imagine pretending to be German Wikipedia but actually being written in Dutch, it shows itself in the content too).
Thank you for reading my long emails :D
The easiest solution for a "rename" would probably be to create a new wiki and do an import. But we are probably far away from this being necessary here.
FYI: The other email sent to this mailing list is not the case I asked around (and I haven't got any response from the university yet). Also the top signature there is actually the user behind lrcwiki (you can find his name in archives).
On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 1:02 AM MF-Warburg mfwarburg@googlemail.com wrote:
Am Fr., 9. Okt. 2020 um 02:20 Uhr schrieb Amir Sarabadani < ladsgroup@gmail.com>:
Thanks. Beside the general note that I'm requesting for closure not because I don't understand the wiki (I don't understand Chinese Wikipedia, I'm not requesting for its closure though, even several Iranian languages like ckb that I don't understand, I'm actually helping them to get on their feet, like see my bot's edits on ckbwiki https://ckb.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%AA%D8%A7%DB%8C%D8%A8%DB%95%D8%AA:%D8%A8%DB%95%D8%B4%D8%AF%D8%A7%D8%B1%DB%8C%DB%8C%DB%95%DA%A9%D8%A7%D9%86/Dexbot) but I'm requesting on the grounds that no Lur person I have talked to (from diverse backgrounds, ages, rural/urban backgrounds, different regions, etc.) couldn't understand the wiki. Actually fun fact, my then-roommate in university dorm is Lur and from Khorramabad and he was one of the first ones who said he couldn't understand it. Laki and Luri Khorramabadi are completely different things.
Re your general note - that should be clear to everyone and I hope that the proponents of lrc.wikipedia don't come up with more such nonsense which only makes them look bad.
Regarding renaming the wiki: (My sysadmin hat on) It's basically impossible. We only renamed be-x-old to be-tarask and it still causing issues (last month all interwiki links to be-tarask broke), I have some plans to improve it, especially handling of discrepancies between the dbname and dns name but it's going to take a while. Also a rename is only redirecting the traffic from dns, the database name stays the same (and it's definitely unchangeable for lots of reasons, let me know if you want to know more). So if we rename lrc.wikipedia.org to lki.wikipedia.org, it still will be named lrcwiki in the database and prevents us from having an actual lrcwiki if the time comes. (My sysadmin hat off). I don't understand the content but I have a feeling it's not very much salvageable even for the lkiwiki (Imagine pretending to be German Wikipedia but actually being written in Dutch, it shows itself in the content too).
Thank you for reading my long emails :D
The easiest solution for a "rename" would probably be to create a new wiki and do an import. But we are probably far away from this being necessary here. _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
Does anyone know a linguist who can help with this? I'm still looking. Sent some emails here and there but a global pandemic is not making things easy...
On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 9:49 AM Amir Sarabadani ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
FYI: The other email sent to this mailing list is not the case I asked around (and I haven't got any response from the university yet). Also the top signature there is actually the user behind lrcwiki (you can find his name in archives).
On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 1:02 AM MF-Warburg mfwarburg@googlemail.com wrote:
Am Fr., 9. Okt. 2020 um 02:20 Uhr schrieb Amir Sarabadani < ladsgroup@gmail.com>:
Thanks. Beside the general note that I'm requesting for closure not because I don't understand the wiki (I don't understand Chinese Wikipedia, I'm not requesting for its closure though, even several Iranian languages like ckb that I don't understand, I'm actually helping them to get on their feet, like see my bot's edits on ckbwiki https://ckb.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%AA%D8%A7%DB%8C%D8%A8%DB%95%D8%AA:%D8%A8%DB%95%D8%B4%D8%AF%D8%A7%D8%B1%DB%8C%DB%8C%DB%95%DA%A9%D8%A7%D9%86/Dexbot) but I'm requesting on the grounds that no Lur person I have talked to (from diverse backgrounds, ages, rural/urban backgrounds, different regions, etc.) couldn't understand the wiki. Actually fun fact, my then-roommate in university dorm is Lur and from Khorramabad and he was one of the first ones who said he couldn't understand it. Laki and Luri Khorramabadi are completely different things.
Re your general note - that should be clear to everyone and I hope that the proponents of lrc.wikipedia don't come up with more such nonsense which only makes them look bad.
Regarding renaming the wiki: (My sysadmin hat on) It's basically impossible. We only renamed be-x-old to be-tarask and it still causing issues (last month all interwiki links to be-tarask broke), I have some plans to improve it, especially handling of discrepancies between the dbname and dns name but it's going to take a while. Also a rename is only redirecting the traffic from dns, the database name stays the same (and it's definitely unchangeable for lots of reasons, let me know if you want to know more). So if we rename lrc.wikipedia.org to lki.wikipedia.org, it still will be named lrcwiki in the database and prevents us from having an actual lrcwiki if the time comes. (My sysadmin hat off). I don't understand the content but I have a feeling it's not very much salvageable even for the lkiwiki (Imagine pretending to be German Wikipedia but actually being written in Dutch, it shows itself in the content too).
Thank you for reading my long emails :D
The easiest solution for a "rename" would probably be to create a new wiki and do an import. But we are probably far away from this being necessary here. _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
-- Amir (he/him)
I have contacted a German colleague who works in Teheran to ask his linguist colleagues there. I haven't gotten any reply so far, though. Best, jan
Am 16.11.2020 03:14, schrieb Amir Sarabadani:
Does anyone know a linguist who can help with this? I'm still looking. Sent some emails here and there but a global pandemic is not making things easy...
On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 9:49 AM Amir Sarabadani ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
FYI: The other email sent to this mailing list is not the case I asked around (and I haven't got any response from the university yet). Also the top signature there is actually the user behind lrcwiki (you can find his name in archives).
On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 1:02 AM MF-Warburg mfwarburg@googlemail.com wrote:
Am Fr., 9. Okt. 2020 um 02:20 Uhr schrieb Amir Sarabadani ladsgroup@gmail.com:
Thanks. Beside the general note that I'm requesting for closure not because I don't understand the wiki (I don't understand Chinese Wikipedia, I'm not requesting for its closure though, even several Iranian languages like ckb that I don't understand, I'm actually helping them to get on their feet, like see my bot's edits on ckbwiki [1]) but I'm requesting on the grounds that no Lur person I have talked to (from diverse backgrounds, ages, rural/urban backgrounds, different regions, etc.) couldn't understand the wiki. Actually fun fact, my then-roommate in university dorm is Lur and from Khorramabad and he was one of the first ones who said he couldn't understand it. Laki and Luri Khorramabadi are completely different things.
Re your general note - that should be clear to everyone and I hope that the proponents of lrc.wikipedia don't come up with more such nonsense which only makes them look bad.
Regarding renaming the wiki: (My sysadmin hat on) It's basically impossible. We only renamed be-x-old to be-tarask and it still causing issues (last month all interwiki links to be-tarask broke), I have some plans to improve it, especially handling of discrepancies between the dbname and dns name but it's going to take a while. Also a rename is only redirecting the traffic from dns, the database name stays the same (and it's definitely unchangeable for lots of reasons, let me know if you want to know more). So if we rename lrc.wikipedia.org [2] to lki.wikipedia.org [3], it still will be named lrcwiki in the database and prevents us from having an actual lrcwiki if the time comes. (My sysadmin hat off). I don't understand the content but I have a feeling it's not very much salvageable even for the lkiwiki (Imagine pretending to be German Wikipedia but actually being written in Dutch, it shows itself in the content too).
Thank you for reading my long emails :D
The easiest solution for a "rename" would probably be to create a new wiki and do an import. But we are probably far away from this being necessary here. _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
--
Amir (he/him)
--
Amir (he/him)
Links:
[1] https://ckb.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%AA%D8%A7%DB%8C%D8%A8%DB%95%D8%AA:%D8%A8%D... [2] http://lrc.wikipedia.org [3] http://lki.wikipedia.org _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
My colleague who was helping with contacting university professors got COVID-19 and needs to rest for a while. I emailed some places in US but no response yet, it'll be even worse given the holidays (except Iran). I'll keep asking. This is weird. We don't anyone for the local languages of Iran?
On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 2:19 AM Jan Wohlgemuth linguist@spamcop.net wrote:
I have contacted a German colleague who works in Teheran to ask his linguist colleagues there. I haven't gotten any reply so far, though. Best, jan
Am 16.11.2020 03:14, schrieb Amir Sarabadani:
Does anyone know a linguist who can help with this? I'm still looking. Sent some emails here and there but a global pandemic is not making things easy...
On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 9:49 AM Amir Sarabadani ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
FYI: The other email sent to this mailing list is not the case I asked around (and I haven't got any response from the university yet). Also the top signature there is actually the user behind lrcwiki (you can find his name in archives).
On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 1:02 AM MF-Warburg mfwarburg@googlemail.com wrote:
Am Fr., 9. Okt. 2020 um 02:20 Uhr schrieb Amir Sarabadani ladsgroup@gmail.com:
Thanks. Beside the general note that I'm requesting for closure not because I don't understand the wiki (I don't understand Chinese Wikipedia, I'm not requesting for its closure though, even several Iranian languages like ckb that I don't understand, I'm actually helping them to get on their feet, like see my bot's edits on ckbwiki [1]) but I'm requesting on the grounds that no Lur person I have talked to (from diverse backgrounds, ages, rural/urban backgrounds, different regions, etc.) couldn't understand the wiki. Actually fun fact, my then-roommate in university dorm is Lur and from Khorramabad and he was one of the first ones who said he couldn't understand it. Laki and Luri Khorramabadi are completely different things.
Re your general note - that should be clear to everyone and I hope that the proponents of lrc.wikipedia don't come up with more such nonsense which only makes them look bad.
Regarding renaming the wiki: (My sysadmin hat on) It's basically impossible. We only renamed be-x-old to be-tarask and it still causing issues (last month all interwiki links to be-tarask broke), I have some plans to improve it, especially handling of discrepancies between the dbname and dns name but it's going to take a while. Also a rename is only redirecting the traffic from dns, the database name stays the same (and it's definitely unchangeable for lots of reasons, let me know if you want to know more). So if we rename lrc.wikipedia.org [2] to lki.wikipedia.org [3], it still will be named lrcwiki in the database and prevents us from having an actual lrcwiki if the time comes. (My sysadmin hat off). I don't understand the content but I have a feeling it's not very much salvageable even for the lkiwiki (Imagine pretending to be German Wikipedia but actually being written in Dutch, it shows itself in the content too).
Thank you for reading my long emails :D
The easiest solution for a "rename" would probably be to create a new wiki and do an import. But we are probably far away from this being necessary here. _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
--
Amir (he/him)
--
Amir (he/him)
Links:
[1]
https://ckb.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%AA%D8%A7%DB%8C%D8%A8%DB%95%D8%AA:%D8%A8%D...
[2] http://lrc.wikipedia.org [3] http://lki.wikipedia.org _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom