On 1/22/06, Gordon Joly gordon.joly@pobox.com wrote:
At 16:59 +0000 22/1/06, Cormac Lawler wrote:
On 1/22/06, Gordon Joly gordon.joly@pobox.com wrote:
Possible meeting date: Sunday 29th January, 2006?
I'm think I could make this. I'd also be happy to talk about non-legal issues, as Jon already mentioned. It seems that incorporation is premature, though - is there a real need to meet face to face or would an online meeting be enough? (I'm travelling the next day as well, so..)
Cormac
It could be online, if James decided so. He really does hold the lines of communication, both to the Foundation and our legal advice.
I can make a meeting in London on the 28th or 29th (but not the following weekend. My feeling is that we could incorporate next weekend if we have had the legal review and the foundation board and their lawyers have not found any problems. The bylaws should not be in the MoA or AoA as we would like to be able to change them at a later date - but I will post about this separately.
Andrew
Possible meeting date: Sunday 29th January, 2006?
Are we going to have a meeting this weekend? I'm in London at the moment, so i can make it. It seems we have more people available for Sunday, so will we just say that date? Even if we can't incorporate (it seems this is impossible, with all the variables), we could talk about possible projects, and what not. Or what do people think?
Cormac
On Thu, 26 Jan 2006, Cormac Lawler wrote:
Possible meeting date: Sunday 29th January, 2006?
Are we going to have a meeting this weekend? I'm in London at the moment, so i can make it. It seems we have more people available for Sunday, so will we just say that date? Even if we can't incorporate (it seems this is impossible, with all the variables), we could talk about possible projects, and what not. Or what do people think?
Cormac
I don't really think its worth having another meeting in advance of incorporation unless there are things we need to discuss re the incorporation or we need to physically sign something.
As I understand the current state of play regarding possible projects we're still at the stage of tossing ideas into the ring to sound out the feasability of them. If this is the case then I suggest this is probably best done on IRC where people have access to the net so they can look up things and get quick asnwers rather than having to write it down for later.
If we are going to have a meeting in person in London this Sunday then I need to know by tomorrow (friday) evening at the latest.
Chris
On 1/26/06, Chris McKenna cmckenna@sucs.org wrote:
On Thu, 26 Jan 2006, Cormac Lawler wrote:
Possible meeting date: Sunday 29th January, 2006?
Are we going to have a meeting this weekend? I'm in London at the moment, so i can make it. It seems we have more people available for Sunday, so will we just say that date? Even if we can't incorporate (it seems this is impossible, with all the variables), we could talk about possible projects, and what not. Or what do people think?
Cormac
I don't really think its worth having another meeting in advance of incorporation unless there are things we need to discuss re the incorporation or we need to physically sign something.
As I understand the current state of play regarding possible projects we're still at the stage of tossing ideas into the ring to sound out the feasability of them. If this is the case then I suggest this is probably best done on IRC where people have access to the net so they can look up things and get quick asnwers rather than having to write it down for later.
If we are going to have a meeting in person in London this Sunday then I need to know by tomorrow (friday) evening at the latest.
Chris
One advantage of having meetings online is to include people who haven't been able to make it to London so far - including Delphine, Florence and Angela. I'm still happy to meet face to face this weekend, purely because I'm_in_London! But if there's not much interest, there's no point. So, who's still interested_and_available?
Cormac
On Thu, 26 Jan 2006, Cormac Lawler wrote:
One advantage of having meetings online is to include people who haven't been able to make it to London so far - including Delphine, Florence and Angela. I'm still happy to meet face to face this weekend, purely because I'm_in_London! But if there's not much interest, there's no point. So, who's still interested_and_available?
Ah, I'm not in London and haven't the time or money to shell out £30-35 every week on getting there. I can come when needed - as long as it isn't every week!
Chris
On 1/26/06, Chris McKenna cmckenna@sucs.org wrote:
On Thu, 26 Jan 2006, Cormac Lawler wrote:
One advantage of having meetings online is to include people who haven't been able to make it to London so far - including Delphine, Florence and Angela. I'm still happy to meet face to face this weekend, purely because I'm_in_London! But if there's not much interest, there's no point. So, who's still interested_and_available?
Ah, I'm not in London and haven't the time or money to shell out £30-35 every week on getting there. I can come when needed - as long as it isn't every week!
Chris
Oh no, but that's what I mean! I live in Manchester, and it's also a bit of a hassle for me to get down to London, but it just so happens that I'm in London this weekend anyway (and a stone's throw from the Royal Oak).
Cormac
On Thu, 26 Jan 2006, Cormac Lawler wrote:
On 1/26/06, Chris McKenna cmckenna@sucs.org wrote:
On Thu, 26 Jan 2006, Cormac Lawler wrote:
One advantage of having meetings online is to include people who haven't been able to make it to London so far - including Delphine, Florence and Angela. I'm still happy to meet face to face this weekend, purely because I'm_in_London! But if there's not much interest, there's no point. So, who's still interested_and_available?
Ah, I'm not in London and haven't the time or money to shell out £30-35 every week on getting there. I can come when needed - as long as it isn't every week!
Chris
Oh no, but that's what I mean! I live in Manchester, and it's also a bit of a hassle for me to get down to London, but it just so happens that I'm in London this weekend anyway (and a stone's throw from the Royal Oak).
Cormac
Ah I understand now. What a shame we didn't coincide!
Chris -- Chris 'Awkward' McKenna
cmckenna@sucs.org www.sucs.org/~cmckenna
The essential things in life are seen not with the eyes, but with the heart
Antoine de Saint Exupery
On 1/26/06, Chris McKenna cmckenna@sucs.org wrote:
On Thu, 26 Jan 2006, Cormac Lawler wrote:
Possible meeting date: Sunday 29th January, 2006?
Are we going to have a meeting this weekend? I'm in London at the moment, so i can make it. It seems we have more people available for Sunday, so will we just say that date? Even if we can't incorporate (it seems this is impossible, with all the variables), we could talk about possible projects, and what not. Or what do people think?
Cormac
I don't really think its worth having another meeting in advance of incorporation unless there are things we need to discuss re the incorporation or we need to physically sign something.
As I understand the current state of play regarding possible projects we're still at the stage of tossing ideas into the ring to sound out the feasability of them. If this is the case then I suggest this is probably best done on IRC where people have access to the net so they can look up things and get quick asnwers rather than having to write it down for later.
If we are going to have a meeting in person in London this Sunday then I need to know by tomorrow (friday) evening at the latest.
Chris
-- Chris 'Awkward' McKenna
I guess we need to know if we can incorporate on Sunday. I think all we need for this is an ok from the Board and positive comments from our legal adviser. I see no problem incorporating before we have hammered out every last detail of our future relationship with the foundation - we know we will be a chapter of some kind and I don't think we need to have agreed a contract before we incorporate.
If there is to be a meeting, I'll be in London anyway on Sunday, so that will not be a problem - however I'll be away from my email from Friday afternoon onwards, so an early decision would be appreciated.
Andrew
On 1/27/06, Andrew Walker keggers@gmail.com wrote:
I guess we need to know if we can incorporate on Sunday. I think all we need for this is an ok from the Board and positive comments from our legal adviser. I see no problem incorporating before we have hammered out every last detail of our future relationship with the foundation - we know we will be a chapter of some kind and I don't think we need to have agreed a contract before we incorporate.
Getting any official answer from the whole Board before Sunday is unlikely. Are the documents you want the Board to ok really out of draft now? It would be pointless for us to be approving them if they're not ready, and although not every detail needs to be hammered out before you incorporate, it would make it much resolve any remaining issues now rather than later. Unless there's some reason for urgency, I'd suggest waiting until everything is finalised and can be approved by Delphine and ok'd by an actual Board resolution.
Angela.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Andrew Walker wrote:
I guess we need to know if we can incorporate on Sunday.
I think that it is premature, really; we still have to finally confirm the changes, and also wait for Board approval. I would be happy to have an IRC meeting this weekend, however, if people feel that it would be necessary.
Yours sincerely, - -- James D. Forrester Wikimedia : [[W:en:User:Jdforrester|James F.]] E-Mail : james@jdforrester.org IM (MSN) : jamesdforrester@hotmail.com
I guess we need to know if we can incorporate on Sunday.
I think that it is premature, really; we still have to finally confirm the changes, and also wait for Board approval. I would be happy to have an IRC meeting this weekend, however, if people feel that it would be necessary.
Whilst I can certainly understand why people are raising some questions on how the *Chapter* will work, the *Company* (which forms the basis of the Charity) is subject to UK law and, as such, has to place that framework first. It is also the case that we cannot start on the Charity registration process (ie. start raising money to do "good works") until the Company completes the registration process, and it will take time.
I am aware that a number of people have felt that we are slightly 'dragging our feet' on this; that there is a level of navel contemplation going on and a surprise that the forms haven't been submitted yet (ie. still). In respect of the company formation it is my belief that we probably *are* in a position to process the paperwork and proceed, and those signatures on the requisite forms and endpages are easiest done with everyone in the same place at the same time, indeed the pages before the final page can actually be amended before the whole set of papers are submitted (not that one should plan to do such a thing, of course, but it is an option).
IMHO there is a separation between the operation of the Company/Charity (with its separate legal identity, concerned with raising money, etc) and the Chapter (probably more concerned with liaison between and support of editors) although they may be two faces of the same organisation in practice. IRC meetings are very suitable for the latter, face2face for the former.
Alison
On 1/26/06, Alison Wheeler wikimedia@alisonwheeler.com wrote:
I guess we need to know if we can incorporate on Sunday.
I think that it is premature, really; we still have to finally confirm the changes, and also wait for Board approval. I would be happy to have an IRC meeting this weekend, however, if people feel that it would be necessary.
Whilst I can certainly understand why people are raising some questions on how the *Chapter* will work, the *Company* (which forms the basis of the Charity) is subject to UK law and, as such, has to place that framework first. It is also the case that we cannot start on the Charity registration process (ie. start raising money to do "good works") until the Company completes the registration process, and it will take time.
Out of interest, how long do the processes of incorporation as a company and registration as a charity take? I guess the first formal board meeting will take place between incorporation and registration?
I am aware that a number of people have felt that we are slightly 'dragging our feet' on this; that there is a level of navel contemplation going on and a surprise that the forms haven't been submitted yet (ie. still). In respect of the company formation it is my belief that we probably *are* in a position to process the paperwork and proceed, and those signatures on the requisite forms and endpages are easiest done with everyone in the same place at the same time, indeed the pages before the final page can actually be amended before the whole set of papers are submitted (not that one should plan to do such a thing, of course, but it is an option).
Do you think the MoA and AoA are ok as they stand or are you anticipating a positive the legal review?
IMHO there is a separation between the operation of the Company/Charity (with its separate legal identity, concerned with raising money, etc) and the Chapter (probably more concerned with liaison between and support of editors) although they may be two faces of the same organisation in practice. IRC meetings are very suitable for the latter, face2face for the former.
I completely agree with you on this one. It may be that the strict relationship between the company/charity and the chapter will change with time - it may be sensible to start out with all members of the company being the chapter and changing this to a subset of the company members and assorted others being the chapter which could be "managed" by the company in some way. This is one reason (but not the only one) why the documents forming the company do not talk about a chapter - or indeed about wiki*ia.
Andrew
On 1/26/06, Alison Wheeler wikimedia@alisonwheeler.com wrote: [snip]
IMHO there is a separation between the operation of the Company/Charity (with its separate legal identity, concerned with raising money, etc) and the Chapter (probably more concerned with liaison between and support of editors) although they may be two faces of the same organisation in practice. IRC meetings are very suitable for the latter, face2face for the former.
I'm still not sure if you are recommending a face to face meeting this weekend, or whether this was meant in a more general sense. Or have the plans for this meeting been abandoned for now? I'm asking this on a slightly selfish note, as my other plans have fallen through, and might leave London tomorrow. So should I hang on or not?
Cormac
Cormax wrote
I'm still not sure if you are recommending a face to face meeting this weekend, or whether this was meant in a more general sense. Or have the plans for this meeting been abandoned for now? I'm asking this on a slightly selfish note, as my other plans have fallen through, and might leave London tomorrow. So should I hang on or not?
In this case I was meaning (initially) the general sense; so far as a meeting this Sunday is concerned we haven't heard from James (unless I've missed it - my email has been playing up a bit) and without his paperwork there'd be no point in a meeting for that purpose. Given it is now end of play on Friday I'm reading this as being that there is *no* meeting this Sunday (for the purposes of legal / the company, anyway)
Separately, I was doing some research earlier and noted that all the correspondance on this list - discussing legal issues too - is available through a quick Google search as it is publicly acccessible. Especially given that there have been many matters which really shouldn't be public pre-registration this is somewhat worrying and, sfaiac, this list should not be used for company matters once a secure alternative is created. Matters discussing the improvement and activities of our wiki projects, etc. are certainly well-served by being here though.
Alison
On 1/27/06, Alison Wheeler alison@alisonwheeler.com wrote:
Cormax wrote
I'm still not sure if you are recommending a face to face meeting this weekend, or whether this was meant in a more general sense. Or have the plans for this meeting been abandoned for now? I'm asking this on a slightly selfish note, as my other plans have fallen through, and might leave London tomorrow. So should I hang on or not?
In this case I was meaning (initially) the general sense; so far as a meeting this Sunday is concerned we haven't heard from James (unless I've missed it - my email has been playing up a bit) and without his paperwork there'd be no point in a meeting for that purpose. Given it is now end of play on Friday I'm reading this as being that there is *no* meeting this Sunday (for the purposes of legal / the company, anyway)
Ok, thanks. Passing on what James wrote yesterday: "I think that it (incorporation) is premature, really; we still have to finally confirm the changes, and also wait for Board approval. I would be happy to have an IRC meeting this weekend, however, if people feel that it would be necessary."
I agree with this - will head back home tomorrow, but would still take part in an IRC meeting if so desired.
"Cormax" :-)
On 27/01/06, Alison Wheeler alison@alisonwheeler.com wrote:
Separately, I was doing some research earlier and noted that all the correspondance on this list - discussing legal issues too - is available through a quick Google search as it is publicly acccessible. Especially given that there have been many matters which really shouldn't be public pre-registration this is somewhat worrying and, sfaiac, this list should not be used for company matters once a secure alternative is created. Matters discussing the improvement and activities of our wiki projects, etc. are certainly well-served by being here though.
It should be relatively easy to make the archives closed, and they'll drop off Google over time - might be useful if the list admin does this for the moment.
-- - Andrew Gray andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk
On Fri, 27 Jan 2006, Andrew Gray wrote:
It should be relatively easy to make the archives closed, and they'll drop off Google over time - might be useful if the list admin does this for the moment.
You can request that google remove their cache of any website from which you are responsible. They replied to me within 24 hours when I asked them to remove their cache of the archives of the mailing list I run when it was pointed out that email addresses were being shown in the clear for some messages. If you want I can probably dig out the email address I contacted them on, but I found it in their contacts section.
One of the list admins (i.e. James or Angela iirc) would need to do it though.
Chris
At 22:48 +0000 27/1/06, Chris McKenna wrote:
On Fri, 27 Jan 2006, Andrew Gray wrote:
It should be relatively easy to make the archives closed, and they'll drop off Google over time - might be useful if the list admin does this for the moment.
You can request that google remove their cache of any website from which you are responsible. They replied to me within 24 hours when I asked them to remove their cache of the archives of the mailing list I run when it was pointed out that email addresses were being shown in the clear for some messages. If you want I can probably dig out the email address I contacted them on, but I found it in their contacts section.
One of the list admins (i.e. James or Angela iirc) would need to do it though.
No need to recall.
Just email wikimediauk-l-request@Wikimedia.org
On Friday, January 27, 2006, at 05:04 pm, Alison Wheeler wrote:
Separately, I was doing some research earlier and noted that all the correspondance on this list - discussing legal issues too - is available through a quick Google search as it is publicly acccessible. Especially given that there have been many matters which really shouldn't be public pre-registration this is somewhat worrying and, sfaiac, this list should not be used for company matters once a secure alternative is created. Matters discussing the improvement and activities of our wiki projects, etc. are certainly well-served by being here though.
I've been offline for a week (oh! the insanity!), and am just catching up. However, on this subject, I think its worth noting that: - Wikipedia is an open, collaborative community
- anyone can (or could have) signed up to this mailing list at any time, and can search the archives
- that we have been discussing formation of (what will become) Wikimedia UK entirely in the open, inclusively, with easy-to-follow pointers from wiki*.org is a *strength*. It avoids any future criticism that WUK is unrepresentative, or that it was set up by a clique, the self-appointed, etc. It was set up in an open, transparent and accountable manner. That is A Good Thing.
- that's not to say that the trustees have to conduct all their discussions in the open.
Thanks for confirming there's not a meeting on Sunday.
Scott
___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
At 00:22 +0000 28/1/06, Scott Keir wrote:
On Friday, January 27, 2006, at 05:04 pm, Alison Wheeler wrote:
Separately, I was doing some research earlier and noted that all the correspondance on this list - discussing legal issues too - is available through a quick Google search as it is publicly acccessible. Especially given that there have been many matters which really shouldn't be public pre-registration this is somewhat worrying and, sfaiac, this list should not be used for company matters once a secure alternative is created. Matters discussing the improvement and activities of our wiki projects, etc. are certainly well-served by being here though.
I've been offline for a week (oh! the insanity!), and am just catching up. However, on this subject, I think its worth noting that:
Wikipedia is an open, collaborative community
anyone can (or could have) signed up to this mailing list at any
time, and can search the archives
- that we have been discussing formation of (what will become)
Wikimedia UK entirely in the open, inclusively, with easy-to-follow pointers from wiki*.org is a *strength*. It avoids any future criticism that WUK is unrepresentative, or that it was set up by a clique, the self-appointed, etc. It was set up in an open, transparent and accountable manner. That is A Good Thing.
- that's not to say that the trustees have to conduct all their
discussions in the open.
Well said!
Should we formally ask the list moderators to close the list?
Or not?
Thanks for confirming there's not a meeting on Sunday.
Scott
Irony?
:-)
I have not booked the pub, since there was no consensus. May I suggest that have an IRC chat on the Wikiemedia UK channel on Sunday 29th at 6pm? That is 18:00 UTC.
Best regards,
On Sat, 28 Jan 2006, Gordon Joly wrote:
:-)
I have not booked the pub, since there was no consensus. May I suggest that have an IRC chat on the Wikiemedia UK channel on Sunday 29th at 6pm? That is 18:00 UTC.
Best regards,
6pm on Sunday is not a good time for me - it clashes with the one TV program I week I always watch (Time Team). 8pm would be much better for me (also gives me more time to figure out how to get IRC working, I've never managed it before)
Chris
At 10:02 +0000 28/1/06, Chris McKenna wrote:
On Sat, 28 Jan 2006, Gordon Joly wrote:
:-)
I have not booked the pub, since there was no consensus. May I suggest that have an IRC chat on the Wikiemedia UK channel on Sunday 29th at 6pm? That is 18:00 UTC.
Best regards,
6pm on Sunday is not a good time for me - it clashes with the one TV program I week I always watch (Time Team). 8pm would be much better for me (also gives me more time to figure out how to get IRC working, I've never managed it before)
Chris
OK: 20.00 UTC.
I will put a directlink on the web page on Meta to the IRC channel.
OK: 20.00 UTC.
I will put a directlink on the web page on Meta to the IRC channel.
There is a link to the #wikimedia-uk chanel, which should launch your favoured IRC client.
Today (29th January) at 20:00 UTC
Suggested agenda:
1) Feedback on progress of our incorporation.
2) Question and answer session: bylaws, chapter status, UK laws, membership etc
3) A.O.B.
4) Date of next meeting
We have had two meetings over IRC: 16th October 2005 and 13th November 2005: see transcripts on
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK
And we have of course had face to face meetings in the interim.
BCNU,
wikimediauk-l@lists.wikimedia.org