Tom,
Please re-read the statement.
The board: a) acknowledges mistakes have been made b) acknowledges that those mistakes have had a damaging impact c) identified a process (the review) which will not only look closely at what went on, but will produce "clear recommendations which will help us follow best practice in every area of governance".
I think you bring very important insights which can and should help get WMUK to where it needs to be. However I don't think you help people grasp the importance of what you suggest when you take umbrage where it is not necessary.
all the best
Fabian (User:Leutha)
Tom Dalton wrote:
The board needs to learn how to write a statement that actually says something...
Apologising for mistakes is meaningless if you don't acknowledge what those mistakes are. This statement comes across as defensive and empty of actual content.
What have you done wrong? What are you doing about fixing the problems caused by those mistakes and making sure similar mistakes don't happen again? That's what people want to know. If you want to wait until the review is complete before going into details, then say that. Don't
.post this kind of meaningless drivel.
On Sunday, 14 October 2012 at 09:47, fabian@unpopular.org.uk wrote:
Tom,
Please re-read the statement.
The board: a) acknowledges mistakes have been made
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistakes_were_made
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-apology_apology
Just sayin'. ;-)
When I was a child and got in trouble I would go up to my mum and say "I'm sooooorrrryy". She would invariably respond "and what are you sorry for?"
If I didn't have a good answer, the apology would have no effect.
I don't think my upbringing was unusual in that respect. On Oct 14, 2012 9:48 AM, fabian@unpopular.org.uk wrote:
Tom,
Please re-read the statement.
The board: a) acknowledges mistakes have been made b) acknowledges that those mistakes have had a damaging impact c) identified a process (the review) which will not only look closely at what went on, but will produce "clear recommendations which will help us follow best practice in every area of governance".
I think you bring very important insights which can and should help get WMUK to where it needs to be. However I don't think you help people grasp the importance of what you suggest when you take umbrage where it is not necessary.
all the best
Fabian (User:Leutha)
Tom Dalton wrote:
The board needs to learn how to write a statement that actually says something...
Apologising for mistakes is meaningless if you don't acknowledge what those mistakes are. This statement comes across as defensive and empty of actual content.
What have you done wrong? What are you doing about fixing the problems caused by those mistakes and making sure similar mistakes don't happen again? That's what people want to know. If you want to wait until the review is complete before going into details, then say that. Don't
.post this kind of meaningless drivel.
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
Heed Fabian's words, please, Tom. It would be paradoxical at best to say "we think mistakes have been made, and we're having an independent review to look at what went wrong, and _here's_ _specifically_ _what_ _went_ _wrong_."
With a bit of imagination and stretchy analogies, it's possible to put a negative spin on *any* development, and attribute the worst intentions to any utterance. (*Cough* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introspection_illusion ).
On 14 October 2012 11:59, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com wrote:
When I was a child and got in trouble I would go up to my mum and say "I'm sooooorrrryy". She would invariably respond "and what are you sorry for?"
If I didn't have a good answer, the apology would have no effect.
I don't think my upbringing was unusual in that respect.
On Oct 14, 2012 9:48 AM, fabian@unpopular.org.uk wrote:
Tom,
Please re-read the statement.
The board: a) acknowledges mistakes have been made b) acknowledges that those mistakes have had a damaging impact c) identified a process (the review) which will not only look closely at what went on, but will produce "clear recommendations which will help us follow best practice in every area of governance".
I think you bring very important insights which can and should help get WMUK to where it needs to be. However I don't think you help people grasp the importance of what you suggest when you take umbrage where it is not necessary.
all the best
Fabian (User:Leutha)
Tom Dalton wrote:
The board needs to learn how to write a statement that actually says something...
Apologising for mistakes is meaningless if you don't acknowledge what those mistakes are. This statement comes across as defensive and empty of actual content.
What have you done wrong? What are you doing about fixing the problems caused by those mistakes and making sure similar mistakes don't happen again? That's what people want to know. If you want to wait until the review is complete before going into details, then say that. Don't
.post this kind of meaningless drivel.
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
If they don't know what they've done wrong, what are they apologising for? On Oct 14, 2012 12:11 PM, "Martin Poulter" infobomb@gmail.com wrote:
Heed Fabian's words, please, Tom. It would be paradoxical at best to say "we think mistakes have been made, and we're having an independent review to look at what went wrong, and _here's_ _specifically_ _what_ _went_ _wrong_."
With a bit of imagination and stretchy analogies, it's possible to put a negative spin on *any* development, and attribute the worst intentions to any utterance. (*Cough* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introspection_illusion ).
On 14 October 2012 11:59, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com wrote:
When I was a child and got in trouble I would go up to my mum and say
"I'm
sooooorrrryy". She would invariably respond "and what are you sorry for?"
If I didn't have a good answer, the apology would have no effect.
I don't think my upbringing was unusual in that respect.
On Oct 14, 2012 9:48 AM, fabian@unpopular.org.uk wrote:
Tom,
Please re-read the statement.
The board: a) acknowledges mistakes have been made b) acknowledges that those mistakes have had a damaging impact c) identified a process (the review) which will not only look closely at what went on, but will produce "clear recommendations which will help us follow best practice in every area of governance".
I think you bring very important insights which can and should help get WMUK to where it needs to be. However I don't think you help people
grasp
the importance of what you suggest when you take umbrage where it is not necessary.
all the best
Fabian (User:Leutha)
Tom Dalton wrote:
The board needs to learn how to write a statement that actually says something...
Apologising for mistakes is meaningless if you don't acknowledge what those mistakes are. This statement comes across as defensive and empty of actual content.
What have you done wrong? What are you doing about fixing the problems caused by those mistakes and making sure similar mistakes don't happen again? That's what people want to know. If you want to wait until the review is complete before going into details, then say that. Don't
.post this kind of meaningless drivel.
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
-- Dr Martin L Poulter Wikipedia contributor http://enwp.org/User:MartinPoulter Associate, Wikimedia UK http://uk.wikimedia.org/ Musician http://myspace.com/comapilot Person http://infobomb.org/
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
On 14 October 2012 12:12, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com wrote:
If they don't know what they've done wrong, what are they apologising for?
There is, of course, an inquiry underway on that precise question.
I think you would be complaining had they said anything or nothing.
- d.
Then they should wait for the review before apologising. Or they could just apologise for those things they already know they did wrong. An apology that doesn't say what you are apologising for is meaningless, so why say it? On Oct 14, 2012 12:15 PM, "David Gerard" dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
On 14 October 2012 12:12, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com wrote:
If they don't know what they've done wrong, what are they apologising
for?
There is, of course, an inquiry underway on that precise question.
I think you would be complaining had they said anything or nothing.
- d.
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
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