Thank you for all of your work, I didn't intend to compromise Dr. Mohskriz
or any scholar in this case. I'm sorry it happened and I apologize for
that. The biggest reason to me was inconsistency of claims by wiki users
about academic credentials of User:Mehramooz (which is entirely different
person judging by his name). And you were told that he has a PhD in
linguistics but at the same time we were told he has a M.Sc. in translation
studies. And that made me suspicious about credentials of every academic
that they claimed. So I checked if he is teaching in Shiraz university and
it was not correct either.
Best
On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 11:02 PM Oliver Stegen <oliver_stegen(a)sil.org> wrote:
I apologize, Amir, for having come across as
aggressive towards you to the
point that you felt obliged to write, "you are pretty aggressive towards me
for an unknown reason". Please believe me that this is neither my attitude
nor my intention.
What I reacted against was a) the example of Arabic/Latin script mixing,
and b) the questioning of Dr. Moshkriz' credentials (which seemed unfair to
me). I, like you, also have many other important things to do, hence I'm
rather direct in my communication (which is probably compounded by my being
German).
I have received a reply from Dr. Erik Anonby who is an academic
knowledgeable about Luri languages. I had forwarded the entire
communication thread for him (after all, it's on the public langcom list),
and he expressed his disappointment about these developments. He agrees
with you that the current orthography is more difficult to read than the
previously used one, yet insists that the language expressed by it is good
Northern Luri and not another language. Hence, the problem is of an
orthographic and not a linguistic nature.
Dr. Anonby is happy to give orthography development guidance to the lrc:wp
editors, especially as he is currently publishing a book on orthography
development in Luri languages - which unfortunately will only be available
in six months time. I append the relevant parts of his message here below.
In the hope that lrc:wp can be revised orthographically so that it will be
accessible to all N Luri readers without being shut down, and with best
wishes,
Oliver
On 03-Feb-16 2:59 PM, Erik Anonby wrote:
[...] The language written in the N Luri Wikipedia is indeed N Luri, but
the orthography is very different than one was there before, and less
readable.
It’s true that there are some symbols and conventions which resemble
Kurdish (like the way that all short vowels are written, and hamze is
written on a small character at the beginning of words), but strictly
speaking the orthography is not based on Kurdish either.
I have been working on orthographies of Iranian languages for some time
now, and my personal opinion is that for readability’s sake, it should be
as close to Persian as possible, but marking all linguistic differences
from Persian, including a lot of short vowel diacritics. I am in the
process of publishing a book on orthography of Bakhtiari, also in the Luri
group and immediately to the south, where we test different conventions and
weigh the options, and I hope that many of the principles there would be
useful to the contributors. However, it will likely be about six months
until it is released and I can’t share the manuscript right now. But it
will be freely available online once it is released.
It’s a shame that the contributors maligned Dr Moshkriz based on the
university where he worked. (As is turns out, Shiraz closed its PhD program
in linguistics, so Moshkriz had to go elsewhere; I believe he is now based
at Shahid Beheshti University in Tehran, where he is doing a postdoc). I
don’t like to be part of such a negative online community. There are many
good scholars working at the smaller universities of Iran, and in fact many
good writers of Iran’s many languages that are not university scholars. We
are all working together to facilitate the use of Iran’s linguistics
heritage in written format, and we should help each other and consult each
other respectfully rather than tearing good-intentioned works down with
criticism directed at people (which is unfair), rather than ideas (which is
fair).
Please communicate my disappointment, as written in these paragraphs, to
the people concerned.
Also, I think that what people are calling “Central Luri” is indeed a type
of Northern Luri (or in fact the same language), which is spoken in
Luristan Province and some surrounding areas. But in my opinion, the issues
facing us here are primarily orthographic rather than linguistic.
I am happy to communicate further about specific questions you might have.
[...]
On 03-Feb-16 2:54 PM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi,
Amir, I would be really happy to have an academic knowledgeable about Luri
to give his opinion.
It is distressing to learn that a Wiki may not be read because of the
insistence of editors on a script that is not legible. I understand
Oliver's argument however I doubt that Luri is unique to Wikipedia. If it
is, we have a problem. How to deal with is unclear. When an academic that
you trust provides us with some proper explanations, we can digest it, ask
further questions if need be and then decide what to do.
I would be obliged if you make the necessary contacts.
Thanks,
Gerard
On 3 February 2016 at 11:20, Amir Ladsgroup <ladsgroup(a)gmail.com> wrote:
That's very fond of Gerard :)
Regarding my English, You could defend it without
judging about my
English.
Regarding the homemade script: A huge proportion (almost all) of Lur
people went to school and are educated but most of them no matter where
they originated can't read this wiki which means we have a big problem,
It's like using sign language script for English and saying look! without
learning you can't read. There is another script for this language which is
readable by anyone. So it's easy to see argument of homemade scripts is
definitely wrong. It's interesting to me that admins of those Wikis
admitted on originality of this script several times and they also
mentioned that User:Mehramooz made up this script.
Regarding your analysis. Please also see this table
<https://fa.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%88%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%E2%80%8C%D9%BE%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%D9%82%D9%87%D9%88%D9%87%E2%80%8C%D8%AE%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%87/%DA%AF%D9%88%D9%86%D8%A7%DA%AF%D9%88%D9%86/%D8%A8%D8%A7%DB%8C%DA%AF%D8%A7%D9%86%DB%8C_%DB%B5%DB%B5#.D9.88.DB.8C.DA.A9.DB.8C_.D9.84.D8.B1.DB.8C>.
Biggest difference between the original script (script of the wiki right
now) and the script being used by Lurish speakers is characters like "ڤ",
"ئ", etc. For example "ئ" is already being used both in Persian and
Arabic but not as often as this original script is using. Instead in the
current script of Lurish (the proper script IMO) "ۆ" is being used
(which is not a Persian character and it's solely a Kurdish one) and this
character is more often. This example shows the proper script(TM) is not
just Persian, in some cases it's closer to Kurdish. Or using "أ" instead
of "ه" sometimes (and not all the times) to make the script more
complicated, i.e. give it unnecessary precision which make it hard for
ordinary readers. These examples are not easy to see for people who doesn't
have a deep knowledge about Iranian languages. I can go on for a very
long time and give you much more examples *if you want.*
Last sentence refers to the thing I want to say here: I can convince you
if you want to listen. I'm not trying to fulfill my nationalism, I believe
in no borders. I'm only a wiki lover who tries to make Wikipedia readable
for sever million more people. I received lots of complaints from Lur
Wikipedians about this language, people who didn't know how to make a
compliment to the language committee but they knew me as a cross-wiki
contributor and they shared their concerns with me. I made some researches
(by asking offline from Lur friends I knew which I'm happy to have a lot of
them) and came to the same conclusion so I sent an email here. But you are
pretty aggressive towards me for an unknown reason insisting on political
part of Iranian languages. Frankly I have much more important things to do
and I won't continue until langcom members think it's needed.
Besy
On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 12:51 PM Oliver Stegen <oliver_stegen(a)sil.org>
wrote:
Okay, I've had a look into this (I actually do read Arabic script).
1. No recently edited articles in lrc:wp which I looked at show *any*
mixture of scripts; they are completely based on Arabic script, with
language-specific modifications like necessary for any non-Arabic language,
e.g. گ (as also used in Persian but not original in Arabic script). The
example below is not comparable as it actually mixes two completely
different scripts, namely Arabic and Latin. Faulting special characters in
Northern Luri writing which deviate from Persian is like faulting Germanic
languages for using different grapheme combination for the same sound, e.g.
phonetic [u] is written oo in English, oe in Dutch, o in Norwegian and u in
German, or for faulting German to add special characters like ä, ö, ü and ß
instead of sticking to the original Latin alphabet.
2. Lurish languages are closely related to both Kurdish and Persian
languages (with lexical cognate percentages between 60% and 85%), hence it
is no wonder that to a Persian speaker, Luri languages look like they had
been mixed with Kurdish.
3. Even an individual language like Northern Luri constitutes a dialect
chain which means that any text written by a specific Northern Luri writer
may not be recognised by another Northern Luri speaker as their particular
speech variety.
4. After having received the contacts of Dr. Moshkriz from Dr. Anonby
(the message makes clear that Dr. Moshkriz had taught at Iranshahr Uni but
left it prior to May 2015), I communicated with Dr. Moshkriz himself - it
usually is sufficient for a language committee member to vouchsafe for the
existence of a verifying scholar without revealing private information
about their sources.
[For information given under nos. 2 and 3 above, please refer to the
2003 article "Update on Luri: how many languages?" in JRAS, Series 3,
13(2), pages 171-197.]
My conclusion: The accusations against edits at lrc:wp cannot be upheld
from a linguistic point of view.
In the hope that this matter can be laid to rest now,
Oliver
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Oliver Stegen, PhD
Linguistics Consultant, SIL Uganda-Tanzania
Email: *Oliver_Stegen(a)sil.org <Oliver_Stegen(a)sil.org>
<Oliver_Stegen(a)sil.org>*
*
<http://sil.academia.edu/OliverStegen>http://sil.academia.edu/OliverStegen
<http://sil.academia.edu/OliverStegen>
<http://sil.academia.edu/OliverStegen>*
On 02-Feb-16 4:29 AM, Amir Ladsgroup wrote:
Damn these spellcheckers I meant "patriotist
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism>".
I try to explain what I mean by giving you an example, Let's say I build
a script that is English but uses Arabic script for second half of alphabet
(N and afterwards) so my first sentence would be "Damن تheزe سپellcheckeرز
I meaنت پaترiوتiست"
Anyone who knows both Persian and English can read this (with
some difficulties I guess) and they might even find it fun. But I can't use
this script in English Wikipedia because it's original and not made for the
language properly.
Same situation applies here, Lurish speakers who doesn't know Kurdish
language (which is virtually all of Lurish speakers) can't get meaning of
this language both because of original script and vocabulary. I already
showed it to several Lurish speakers in broad demography (so I get to see
speakers of all variants of Lurish) no success at all.
Also I couldn't find any record of Dr. Moshkriz and it was claimed he
teaches at Iranshahr university (a small university unlike Shiraz
university which originally they claimed he is teaching)
Please tell if you have trouble understanding me.
Best
On 02-Feb-16 10:39 AM, Oliver Stegen wrote:
ad 1 - I didn't make fun of anyone's English. I reacted to the proposal
to put Mogoeilor on moderation due to his imperfect English. I actually
defended all non-English participants in this communication, asking not to
restrict their communication just because their English took a bit more
effort to understand.
ad 2 - I'm glad to hear of your support for lrc:wp.
ad 3 - I'm not familiar with the language situation in Iran (which is
why I contacted Dr. Erik Anonby). However, I know something about
orthography development (it's actually part of my job as a linguistics
consultant for minority languages in East Africa). As long as there is no
standard (and there doesn't seem to be for Northern Luri), all scripts are
"homemade" in some sense of the word. And no script, whether "pure"
or
"mixed" (both of which are acceptable in orthography development), will be
readable without teaching, explaining and literacy activities.
I'll inform you of Dr. Anonby's reply once I've made contact.
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 1:45 AM Amir Ladsgroup <ladsgroup(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
Hey,
1- Making fun of my English (which is not perfect
I admit) is a little
bit unethical. Don't you think? I expected higher standards from this
mailing list
2- Situation of Iranian languages is a political issue, I definitely
agree but not this case. I was actually asked by the same person who
started this discussion in fa.wp who speaks Lurish. Is it okay for to make
this Wiki again with proper script? and I said, why not? that would be
awesome. I'm not like these crazy protagonists that think the only language
in Iran is Persian and other ones are its dialects. I definitely in favor
of re-launching this wiki with proper scripts that are readable by Lur
people. Not a handful number of people.
3- I think originality of this script is implicitly mentioned in email
of the professor, quoting: "There are some quirky orthographic things
[...] off of words, but many fewer issues than a lot of the other homemade
scripts I’ve seen used for Luri."
My attention came to word "homemade". Have you explained to him what
"originality" means in context of Wikipedia? I must explain to you: This
script is readable if the person knows Kurdish because the extra letters
came from ckb language but Kurdish and Lurish are two different languages
with different speakers with different ethnically backgrounds. please
explain the situation properly to him and ask if a normal Lur who was
educated in Iran, can read this script or not.
Best
On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 3:17 PM Oliver Stegen <oliver_stegen(a)sil.org>
wrote:
> In May 2015, I had contacted Erik Anonby, a Canadian linguist with
> specialty in Iranian languages, and he actually verified the contents of
> lrc:wp (then still in the incubator). It was him who also provided contact
> for Mehdi Moshkriz who is now maligned by fa:wp editors. [Btw, I do not
> find Amir Ladsgroup's English much better than Mogoeilor's.]
> I actually assume that this is a predominantly political issue, and I
> would caution against allowing fa:wp editors to interfere in lrc:wp issues
> - especially when we already have independent verification from a bona fide
> Canadian (i.e. non-Persian!) scholar. I append his reply fyi.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
> from Erik Anonby's reply (May 2015):
>
> "I know Bakhtiari and Southern Luri a lot better than Northern Luri –
> most of my knowledge of N Luri is lexicon and phonology rather than whole
> texts.
> But from looking at several articles, it looks well-enough written to
> me. There are some quirky orthographic things (like splitting the –e “is” /
> direct object suffix) off of words, but many fewer issues than a lot of the
> other homemade scripts I’ve seen used for Luri.
> The author is also using Khorramabadi dialect, which is the central
> dialect but heavily influenced by Persian and not typical of the language
> as a whole. He could still use this dialect but with a bit of accommodation
> to the language as a whole; for example, it’s a bit of a shame he doesn’t
> use Luri verb prefixes like present/continuous i- (which is used pretty
> much everywhere other than in Khorramabad) rather than Khorramabadi mi-
> (which is from Persian).
> Two scholars who could verify the content (naturalness, spelling,
> etc.) better than me are:
> Sekandar Amanollahi (retired; I don’t have his contact info)
> Mehdi Moshkriz (at Iranshahr University until recently; his email is
> [...])
> Mehdi is very nice and could probably put you in touch with many other
> Luri scholars, too, to check the articles."
>
>
> On 31-Jan-16 9:02 PM, MF-Warburg wrote:
>
> It's very embarrassing for us if that is true.
> Is it possible that the language used is not Northern Lurish, but at
> least correct Central L.?
> Do we have any other contacts in the linguistic world who could help
> verify it?
>
> I agree that the wiki ought to be closed if it's not in a real
> language.
> Am 30.01.2016 02:46 schrieb "Amir Ladsgroup" <ladsgroup(a)gmail.com>om>:
>
>> Hey,
>> Several days ago a discussion
>>
<https://fa.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D9%88%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%E2%80%8C%D9%BE%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%D9%82%D9%87%D9%88%D9%87%E2%80%8C%D8%AE%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%87/%DA%AF%D9%88%D9%86%D8%A7%DA%AF%D9%88%D9%86&oldid=16528438#.D9.88.DB.8C.DA.A9.DB.8C_.D9.84.D8.B1.DB.8C>
>> has been started in Persian Wikipedia regarding Northern[1] Luri wikipedia (
>>
lrc.wikimedia.org).
>> If I want to give you a summary of the discussion. Mostly they say
>> script is unreadable (it's greatly different than Persian script) and also
>> they noted that vocabulary is tried to be away of Persian (and close to
>> Kuridsh) in a bad way and thus it's un-understandable for people who talk
>> this variant of Luri (As it was mentioned this Luri is being spoken in
>> Khoramabbad and Broujerd, two big cities of Iran). We can confirm that we
>> showed this wiki to several people who speak Luri and in either Khoramabad
>> or Boroujerd. None of them could understand most of content of this wiki.
>> We also provided a big table at the discussion in Persian Wikipedia and
>> compared several words in the wiki to what they actually speak in Northern
>> Luri.
>>
>> I found this
>> <http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.org.wikimedia.langcom/150> in
>> which User:Mogoeilor told you that Gholamreza Mehramooz (User:Mehramooz) is
>> a university professor with PhD and interestingly when we asked about the
>> script in that wiki User:Mogoeilor (the same person) told us the script is
>> made up by a User:Mehramooz because he has MSc in linguistics (edit
>>
<https://lrc.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%DA%A4%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%D9%BE%D8%A6%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%DA%86%D8%A7%D8%B3%D8%AA_%D8%AD%D9%88%D9%99%D9%86%DB%95/%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1_%DA%A4%D8%A7_%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1&diff=prev&oldid=26654>)
>> . More interestingly in his blog he says he has a MSc in translation
>> studies (published about a year and half ago
>> <http://www.zistrah.blogfa.com/post/16>) You can verify the blog in
>> his user page.
>>
>> [1]: Also an interesting conversation
>>
<https://lrc.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%DA%A4%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%D9%BE%D8%A6%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%DA%86%D8%A7%D8%B3%D8%AA_%D8%AD%D9%88%D9%99%D9%86%DB%95/%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1_%DA%A4%D8%A7_%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1&oldid=34935#.D9.84.DB.8A.D8.B1.DB.8C_.D8.B4.D9.88.D9.85.D8.A7.D9.84.DB.8C>
>> happened in this wiki in Persian. It seems they changed named of the wiki
>> from Northern Luri to Minjaii Luri "Minjaii" is a word in Luri that in
>> English means "Centeral Luri"
>>
>> Best
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Langcom mailing list
>> Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
>>
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