Hoi, When they change what the language is, they are not what they are expected to be. It is a reason to reconsider the license of the project. Thanks, GerardM

On 30 January 2016 at 01:44, Amir Ladsgroup ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:

Hey, Several days ago a discussion https://fa.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D9%88%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%E2%80%8C%D9%BE%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%D9%82%D9%87%D9%88%D9%87%E2%80%8C%D8%AE%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%87/%DA%AF%D9%88%D9%86%D8%A7%DA%AF%D9%88%D9%86&oldid=16528438#.D9.88.DB.8C.DA.A9.DB.8C_.D9.84.D8.B1.DB.8C has been started in Persian Wikipedia regarding Northern[1] Luri wikipedia ( lrc.wikimedia.org). If I want to give you a summary of the discussion. Mostly they say script is unreadable (it's greatly different than Persian script) and also they noted that vocabulary is tried to be away of Persian (and close to Kuridsh) in a bad way and thus it's un-understandable for people who talk this variant of Luri (As it was mentioned this Luri is being spoken in Khoramabbad and Broujerd, two big cities of Iran). We can confirm that we showed this wiki to several people who speak Luri and in either Khoramabad or Boroujerd. None of them could understand most of content of this wiki. We also provided a big table at the discussion in Persian Wikipedia and compared several words in the wiki to what they actually speak in Northern Luri.

I found this http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.org.wikimedia.langcom/150 in which User:Mogoeilor told you that Gholamreza Mehramooz (User:Mehramooz) is a university professor with PhD and interestingly when we asked about the script in that wiki User:Mogoeilor (the same person) told us the script is made up by a User:Mehramooz because he has MSc in linguistics (edit https://lrc.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%DA%A4%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%D9%BE%D8%A6%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%DA%86%D8%A7%D8%B3%D8%AA_%D8%AD%D9%88%D9%99%D9%86%DB%95/%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1_%DA%A4%D8%A7_%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1&diff=prev&oldid=26654) . More interestingly in his blog he says he has a MSc in translation studies (published about a year and half ago http://www.zistrah.blogfa.com/post/16) You can verify the blog in his user page.

[1]: Also an interesting conversation https://lrc.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%DA%A4%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%D9%BE%D8%A6%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%DA%86%D8%A7%D8%B3%D8%AA_%D8%AD%D9%88%D9%99%D9%86%DB%95/%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1_%DA%A4%D8%A7_%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1&oldid=34935#.D9.84.DB.8A.D8.B1.DB.8C_.D8.B4.D9.88.D9.85.D8.A7.D9.84.DB.8C happened in this wiki in Persian. It seems they changed named of the wiki from Northern Luri to Minjaii Luri "Minjaii" is a word in Luri that in English means "Centeral Luri"

Best

---

Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

Oh sorry, I meant the user stated that "a person who is not Lur should *not* state about Luri"

Best

On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 9:11 PM Amir Ladsgroup ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:

I definitely agree. I think we should move on next steps of closing this wiki. The user again confirmed https://fa.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D9%88%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%E2%80%8C%D9%BE%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%D9%82%D9%87%D9%88%D9%87%E2%80%8C%D8%AE%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%87/%DA%AF%D9%88%D9%86%D8%A7%DA%AF%D9%88%D9%86&diff=16530749&oldid=16530712 the script is original stating every script is original so we can have an original script too. Also, it's getting ugly, the user says a person who is not Lur should comment about Luri language.

Please act fast. Best

On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 11:55 AM Gerard Meijssen < gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Hoi, When they change what the language is, they are not what they are expected to be. It is a reason to reconsider the license of the project. Thanks, GerardM

On 30 January 2016 at 01:44, Amir Ladsgroup ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:

...

Hey, Several days ago a discussion https://fa.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D9%88%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%E2%80%8C%D9%BE%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%D9%82%D9%87%D9%88%D9%87%E2%80%8C%D8%AE%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%87/%DA%AF%D9%88%D9%86%D8%A7%DA%AF%D9%88%D9%86&oldid=16528438#.D9.88.DB.8C.DA.A9.DB.8C_.D9.84.D8.B1.DB.8C has been started in Persian Wikipedia regarding Northern[1] Luri wikipedia ( lrc.wikimedia.org). If I want to give you a summary of the discussion. Mostly they say script is unreadable (it's greatly different than Persian script) and also they noted that vocabulary is tried to be away of Persian (and close to Kuridsh) in a bad way and thus it's un-understandable for people who talk this variant of Luri (As it was mentioned this Luri is being spoken in Khoramabbad and Broujerd, two big cities of Iran). We can confirm that we showed this wiki to several people who speak Luri and in either Khoramabad or Boroujerd. None of them could understand most of content of this wiki. We also provided a big table at the discussion in Persian Wikipedia and compared several words in the wiki to what they actually speak in Northern Luri.

I found this http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.org.wikimedia.langcom/150 in which User:Mogoeilor told you that Gholamreza Mehramooz (User:Mehramooz) is a university professor with PhD and interestingly when we asked about the script in that wiki User:Mogoeilor (the same person) told us the script is made up by a User:Mehramooz because he has MSc in linguistics (edit https://lrc.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%DA%A4%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%D9%BE%D8%A6%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%DA%86%D8%A7%D8%B3%D8%AA_%D8%AD%D9%88%D9%99%D9%86%DB%95/%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1_%DA%A4%D8%A7_%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1&diff=prev&oldid=26654) . More interestingly in his blog he says he has a MSc in translation studies (published about a year and half ago http://www.zistrah.blogfa.com/post/16) You can verify the blog in his user page.

[1]: Also an interesting conversation https://lrc.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%DA%A4%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%D9%BE%D8%A6%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%DA%86%D8%A7%D8%B3%D8%AA_%D8%AD%D9%88%D9%99%D9%86%DB%95/%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1_%DA%A4%D8%A7_%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1&oldid=34935#.D9.84.DB.8A.D8.B1.DB.8C_.D8.B4.D9.88.D9.85.D8.A7.D9.84.DB.8C happened in this wiki in Persian. It seems they changed named of the wiki from Northern Luri to Minjaii Luri "Minjaii" is a word in Luri that in English means "Centeral Luri"

Best

---

Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

---

Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

I try to find and contact a faculty member of Tehran university (top university in Iran in linguistics) who specialize in Iranian languages. I've some links. I maybe can convince him/her to check out other Iranian languages that are launched already or are about to be approved.

Best

On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 9:32 PM MF-Warburg mfwarburg@googlemail.com wrote:

It's very embarrassing for us if that is true. Is it possible that the language used is not Northern Lurish, but at least correct Central L.? Do we have any other contacts in the linguistic world who could help verify it?

I agree that the wiki ought to be closed if it's not in a real language. Am 30.01.2016 02:46 schrieb "Amir Ladsgroup" ladsgroup@gmail.com:

...

Hey, Several days ago a discussion https://fa.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D9%88%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%E2%80%8C%D9%BE%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%D9%82%D9%87%D9%88%D9%87%E2%80%8C%D8%AE%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%87/%DA%AF%D9%88%D9%86%D8%A7%DA%AF%D9%88%D9%86&oldid=16528438#.D9.88.DB.8C.DA.A9.DB.8C_.D9.84.D8.B1.DB.8C has been started in Persian Wikipedia regarding Northern[1] Luri wikipedia ( lrc.wikimedia.org). If I want to give you a summary of the discussion. Mostly they say script is unreadable (it's greatly different than Persian script) and also they noted that vocabulary is tried to be away of Persian (and close to Kuridsh) in a bad way and thus it's un-understandable for people who talk this variant of Luri (As it was mentioned this Luri is being spoken in Khoramabbad and Broujerd, two big cities of Iran). We can confirm that we showed this wiki to several people who speak Luri and in either Khoramabad or Boroujerd. None of them could understand most of content of this wiki. We also provided a big table at the discussion in Persian Wikipedia and compared several words in the wiki to what they actually speak in Northern Luri.

I found this http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.org.wikimedia.langcom/150 in which User:Mogoeilor told you that Gholamreza Mehramooz (User:Mehramooz) is a university professor with PhD and interestingly when we asked about the script in that wiki User:Mogoeilor (the same person) told us the script is made up by a User:Mehramooz because he has MSc in linguistics (edit https://lrc.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%DA%A4%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%D9%BE%D8%A6%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%DA%86%D8%A7%D8%B3%D8%AA_%D8%AD%D9%88%D9%99%D9%86%DB%95/%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1_%DA%A4%D8%A7_%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1&diff=prev&oldid=26654) . More interestingly in his blog he says he has a MSc in translation studies (published about a year and half ago http://www.zistrah.blogfa.com/post/16) You can verify the blog in his user page.

[1]: Also an interesting conversation https://lrc.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%DA%A4%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%D9%BE%D8%A6%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%DA%86%D8%A7%D8%B3%D8%AA_%D8%AD%D9%88%D9%99%D9%86%DB%95/%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1_%DA%A4%D8%A7_%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1&oldid=34935#.D9.84.DB.8A.D8.B1.DB.8C_.D8.B4.D9.88.D9.85.D8.A7.D9.84.DB.8C happened in this wiki in Persian. It seems they changed named of the wiki from Northern Luri to Minjaii Luri "Minjaii" is a word in Luri that in English means "Centeral Luri"

Best

---

Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

---

Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Oliver Stegen oliver_stegen@sil.org wrote:

In May 2015, I had contacted Erik Anonby, a Canadian linguist with specialty in Iranian languages, and he actually verified the contents of lrc:wp (then still in the incubator). It was him who also provided contact for Mehdi Moshkriz who is now maligned by fa:wp editors. [Btw, I do not find Amir Ladsgroup's English much better than Mogoeilor's.] I actually assume that this is a predominantly political issue, and I would caution against allowing fa:wp editors to interfere in lrc:wp issues - especially when we already have independent verification from a bona fide Canadian (i.e. non-Persian!) scholar. I append his reply fyi.

May he verify the content of the Wikipedia this time?

Hey, 1- Making fun of my English (which is not perfect I admit) is a little bit unethical. Don't you think? I expected higher standards from this mailing list 2- Situation of Iranian languages is a political issue, I definitely agree but not this case. I was actually asked by the same person who started this discussion in fa.wp who speaks Lurish. Is it okay for to make this Wiki again with proper script? and I said, why not? that would be awesome. I'm not like these crazy protagonists that think the only language in Iran is Persian and other ones are its dialects. I definitely in favor of re-launching this wiki with proper scripts that are readable by Lur people. Not a handful number of people. 3- I think originality of this script is implicitly mentioned in email of the professor, quoting: "There are some quirky orthographic things [...] off of words, but many fewer issues than a lot of the other homemade scripts I’ve seen used for Luri." My attention came to word "homemade". Have you explained to him what "originality" means in context of Wikipedia? I must explain to you: This script is readable if the person knows Kurdish because the extra letters came from ckb language but Kurdish and Lurish are two different languages with different speakers with different ethnically backgrounds. please explain the situation properly to him and ask if a normal Lur who was educated in Iran, can read this script or not.

Best On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 3:17 PM Oliver Stegen oliver_stegen@sil.org wrote:

In May 2015, I had contacted Erik Anonby, a Canadian linguist with specialty in Iranian languages, and he actually verified the contents of lrc:wp (then still in the incubator). It was him who also provided contact for Mehdi Moshkriz who is now maligned by fa:wp editors. [Btw, I do not find Amir Ladsgroup's English much better than Mogoeilor's.] I actually assume that this is a predominantly political issue, and I would caution against allowing fa:wp editors to interfere in lrc:wp issues

• especially when we already have independent verification from a bona fide

Canadian (i.e. non-Persian!) scholar. I append his reply fyi.

---

from Erik Anonby's reply (May 2015):

"I know Bakhtiari and Southern Luri a lot better than Northern Luri – most of my knowledge of N Luri is lexicon and phonology rather than whole texts. But from looking at several articles, it looks well-enough written to me. There are some quirky orthographic things (like splitting the –e “is” / direct object suffix) off of words, but many fewer issues than a lot of the other homemade scripts I’ve seen used for Luri. The author is also using Khorramabadi dialect, which is the central dialect but heavily influenced by Persian and not typical of the language as a whole. He could still use this dialect but with a bit of accommodation to the language as a whole; for example, it’s a bit of a shame he doesn’t use Luri verb prefixes like present/continuous i- (which is used pretty much everywhere other than in Khorramabad) rather than Khorramabadi mi- (which is from Persian). Two scholars who could verify the content (naturalness, spelling, etc.) better than me are: Sekandar Amanollahi (retired; I don’t have his contact info) Mehdi Moshkriz (at Iranshahr University until recently; his email is [...]) Mehdi is very nice and could probably put you in touch with many other Luri scholars, too, to check the articles."

On 31-Jan-16 9:02 PM, MF-Warburg wrote:

It's very embarrassing for us if that is true. Is it possible that the language used is not Northern Lurish, but at least correct Central L.? Do we have any other contacts in the linguistic world who could help verify it?

I agree that the wiki ought to be closed if it's not in a real language. Am 30.01.2016 02:46 schrieb "Amir Ladsgroup" ladsgroup@gmail.com:

...

Hey, Several days ago a discussion https://fa.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D9%88%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%E2%80%8C%D9%BE%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%D9%82%D9%87%D9%88%D9%87%E2%80%8C%D8%AE%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%87/%DA%AF%D9%88%D9%86%D8%A7%DA%AF%D9%88%D9%86&oldid=16528438#.D9.88.DB.8C.DA.A9.DB.8C_.D9.84.D8.B1.DB.8C has been started in Persian Wikipedia regarding Northern[1] Luri wikipedia ( lrc.wikimedia.org). If I want to give you a summary of the discussion. Mostly they say script is unreadable (it's greatly different than Persian script) and also they noted that vocabulary is tried to be away of Persian (and close to Kuridsh) in a bad way and thus it's un-understandable for people who talk this variant of Luri (As it was mentioned this Luri is being spoken in Khoramabbad and Broujerd, two big cities of Iran). We can confirm that we showed this wiki to several people who speak Luri and in either Khoramabad or Boroujerd. None of them could understand most of content of this wiki. We also provided a big table at the discussion in Persian Wikipedia and compared several words in the wiki to what they actually speak in Northern Luri.

I found this http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.org.wikimedia.langcom/150 in which User:Mogoeilor told you that Gholamreza Mehramooz (User:Mehramooz) is a university professor with PhD and interestingly when we asked about the script in that wiki User:Mogoeilor (the same person) told us the script is made up by a User:Mehramooz because he has MSc in linguistics (edit https://lrc.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%DA%A4%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%D9%BE%D8%A6%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%DA%86%D8%A7%D8%B3%D8%AA_%D8%AD%D9%88%D9%99%D9%86%DB%95/%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1_%DA%A4%D8%A7_%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1&diff=prev&oldid=26654) . More interestingly in his blog he says he has a MSc in translation studies (published about a year and half ago http://www.zistrah.blogfa.com/post/16) You can verify the blog in his user page.

[1]: Also an interesting conversation https://lrc.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%DA%A4%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%D9%BE%D8%A6%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%DA%86%D8%A7%D8%B3%D8%AA_%D8%AD%D9%88%D9%99%D9%86%DB%95/%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1_%DA%A4%D8%A7_%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1&oldid=34935#.D9.84.DB.8A.D8.B1.DB.8C_.D8.B4.D9.88.D9.85.D8.A7.D9.84.DB.8C happened in this wiki in Persian. It seems they changed named of the wiki from Northern Luri to Minjaii Luri "Minjaii" is a word in Luri that in English means "Centeral Luri"

Best

---

Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

---

Langcom mailing listLangcom@lists.wikimedia.orghttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

---

Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

ad 1 - I didn't make fun of anyone's English. I reacted to the proposal to put Mogoeilor on moderation due to his imperfect English. I actually defended all non-English participants in this communication, asking not to restrict their communication just because their English took a bit more effort to understand. ad 2 - I'm glad to hear of your support for lrc:wp. ad 3 - I'm not familiar with the language situation in Iran (which is why I contacted Dr. Erik Anonby). However, I know something about orthography development (it's actually part of my job as a linguistics consultant for minority languages in East Africa). As long as there is no standard (and there doesn't seem to be for Northern Luri), all scripts are "homemade" in some sense of the word. And no script, whether "pure" or "mixed" (both of which are acceptable in orthography development), will be readable without teaching, explaining and literacy activities.

I'll inform you of Dr. Anonby's reply once I've made contact.

On 02-Feb-16 1:15 AM, Amir Ladsgroup wrote:

Hey, 1- Making fun of my English (which is not perfect I admit) is a little bit unethical. Don't you think? I expected higher standards from this mailing list 2- Situation of Iranian languages is a political issue, I definitely agree but not this case. I was actually asked by the same person who started this discussion in fa.wp who speaks Lurish. Is it okay for to make this Wiki again with proper script? and I said, why not? that would be awesome. I'm not like these crazy protagonists that think the only language in Iran is Persian and other ones are its dialects. I definitely in favor of re-launching this wiki with proper scripts that are readable by Lur people. Not a handful number of people. 3- I think originality of this script is implicitly mentioned in email of the professor, quoting: "There are some quirky orthographic things [...] off of words, but many fewer issues than a lot of the other homemade scripts I’ve seen used for Luri." My attention came to word "homemade". Have you explained to him what "originality" means in context of Wikipedia? I must explain to you: This script is readable if the person knows Kurdish because the extra letters came from ckb language but Kurdish and Lurish are two different languages with different speakers with different ethnically backgrounds. please explain the situation properly to him and ask if a normal Lur who was educated in Iran, can read this script or not.

Best On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 3:17 PM Oliver Stegen <oliver_stegen@sil.org mailto:oliver_stegen@sil.org> wrote:

In May 2015, I had contacted Erik Anonby, a Canadian linguist with
specialty in Iranian languages, and he actually verified the
contents of lrc:wp (then still in the incubator). It was him who
also provided contact for Mehdi Moshkriz who is now maligned by
fa:wp editors. [Btw, I do not find Amir Ladsgroup's English much
better than Mogoeilor's.]
I actually assume that this is a predominantly political issue,
and I would caution against allowing fa:wp editors to interfere in
lrc:wp issues - especially when we already have independent
verification from a bona fide Canadian (i.e. non-Persian!)
scholar. I append his reply fyi.

-------------------------------------------------------------

from Erik Anonby's reply (May 2015):

"I know Bakhtiari and Southern Luri a lot better than Northern
Luri – most of my knowledge of N Luri is lexicon and phonology
rather than whole texts.
But from looking at several articles, it looks well-enough written
to me. There are some quirky orthographic things (like splitting
the –e “is” / direct object suffix) off of words, but many fewer
issues than a lot of the other homemade scripts I’ve seen used for
Luri.
The author is also using Khorramabadi dialect, which is the
central dialect but heavily influenced by Persian and not typical
of the language as a whole. He could still use this dialect but
with a bit of accommodation to the language as a whole; for
example, it’s a bit of a shame he doesn’t use Luri verb prefixes
like present/continuous i- (which is used pretty much everywhere
other than in Khorramabad) rather than Khorramabadi mi- (which is
from Persian).
Two scholars who could verify the content (naturalness, spelling,
etc.) better than me are:
Sekandar Amanollahi (retired; I don’t have his contact info)
Mehdi Moshkriz (at Iranshahr University until recently; his email
is [...])
Mehdi is very nice and could probably put you in touch with many
other Luri scholars, too, to check the articles."


On 31-Jan-16 9:02 PM, MF-Warburg wrote:

...

It's very embarrassing for us if that is true.
Is it possible that the language used is not Northern Lurish, but
at least correct Central L.?
Do we have any other contacts in the linguistic world who could
help verify it?

I agree that the wiki ought to be closed if it's not in a real
language.

Am 30.01.2016 02:46 schrieb "Amir Ladsgroup" <ladsgroup@gmail.com
<mailto:ladsgroup@gmail.com>>:

    Hey,
    Several days ago a discussion
    <https://fa.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D9%88%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%E2%80%8C%D9%BE%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%D9%82%D9%87%D9%88%D9%87%E2%80%8C%D8%AE%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%87/%DA%AF%D9%88%D9%86%D8%A7%DA%AF%D9%88%D9%86&oldid=16528438#.D9.88.DB.8C.DA.A9.DB.8C_.D9.84.D8.B1.DB.8C>
    has been started in Persian Wikipedia regarding Northern[1]
    Luri wikipedia (lrc.wikimedia.org <http://lrc.wikimedia.org>).
    If I want to give you a summary of the discussion. Mostly
    they say script is unreadable (it's greatly different than
    Persian script) and also they noted that vocabulary is tried
    to be away of Persian (and close to Kuridsh) in a bad way and
    thus it's un-understandable for people who talk this variant
    of Luri (As it was mentioned this Luri is being spoken in
    Khoramabbad and Broujerd, two big cities of Iran). We can
    confirm that we showed this wiki to several people who speak
    Luri and in either Khoramabad or Boroujerd. None of them
    could understand most of content of this wiki. We also
    provided a big table at the discussion in Persian Wikipedia
    and compared several words in the wiki to what they actually
    speak in Northern Luri.

    I found this
    <http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.org.wikimedia.langcom/150> in
    which User:Mogoeilor told you that Gholamreza Mehramooz
    (User:Mehramooz) is a university professor with PhD and
    interestingly when we asked about the script in that wiki
    User:Mogoeilor (the same person) told us the script is made
    up by a User:Mehramooz because he has MSc in linguistics
    (edit
    <https://lrc.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%DA%A4%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%D9%BE%D8%A6%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%DA%86%D8%A7%D8%B3%D8%AA_%D8%AD%D9%88%D9%99%D9%86%DB%95/%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1_%DA%A4%D8%A7_%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1&diff=prev&oldid=26654>)
    . More interestingly in his blog he says he has a MSc in
    translation studies (published about a year and half ago
    <http://www.zistrah.blogfa.com/post/16>) You can verify the
    blog in his user page.

    [1]: Also an interesting conversation
    <https://lrc.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%DA%A4%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%D9%BE%D8%A6%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%DA%86%D8%A7%D8%B3%D8%AA_%D8%AD%D9%88%D9%99%D9%86%DB%95/%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1_%DA%A4%D8%A7_%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1&oldid=34935#.D9.84.DB.8A.D8.B1.DB.8C_.D8.B4.D9.88.D9.85.D8.A7.D9.84.DB.8C>
    happened in this wiki in Persian. It seems they changed named
    of the wiki from Northern Luri to Minjaii Luri "Minjaii" is a
    word in Luri that in English means "Centeral Luri"

    Best

Okay, I've had a look into this (I actually do read Arabic script).

1. No recently edited articles in lrc:wp which I looked at show *any* mixture of scripts; they are completely based on Arabic script, with language-specific modifications like necessary for any non-Arabic language, e.g. گ (as also used in Persian but not original in Arabic script). The example below is not comparable as it actually mixes two completely different scripts, namely Arabic and Latin. Faulting special characters in Northern Luri writing which deviate from Persian is like faulting Germanic languages for using different grapheme combination for the same sound, e.g. phonetic [u] is written oo in English, oe in Dutch, o in Norwegian and u in German, or for faulting German to add special characters like ä, ö, ü and ß instead of sticking to the original Latin alphabet. 2. Lurish languages are closely related to both Kurdish and Persian languages (with lexical cognate percentages between 60% and 85%), hence it is no wonder that to a Persian speaker, Luri languages look like they had been mixed with Kurdish. 3. Even an individual language like Northern Luri constitutes a dialect chain which means that any text written by a specific Northern Luri writer may not be recognised by another Northern Luri speaker as their particular speech variety. 4. After having received the contacts of Dr. Moshkriz from Dr. Anonby (the message makes clear that Dr. Moshkriz had taught at Iranshahr Uni but left it prior to May 2015), I communicated with Dr. Moshkriz himself - it usually is sufficient for a language committee member to vouchsafe for the existence of a verifying scholar without revealing private information about their sources.

[For information given under nos. 2 and 3 above, please refer to the 2003 article "Update on Luri: how many languages?" in JRAS, Series 3, 13(2), pages 171-197.]

My conclusion: The accusations against edits at lrc:wp cannot be upheld from a linguistic point of view.

In the hope that this matter can be laid to rest now, Oliver

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Oliver Stegen, PhD Linguistics Consultant, SIL Uganda-Tanzania Email: _Oliver_Stegen@sil.org mailto:Oliver_Stegen@sil.org_ _http://sil.academia.edu/OliverStegen_

On 02-Feb-16 4:29 AM, Amir Ladsgroup wrote:

Damn these spellcheckers I meant "patriotist https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism". I try to explain what I mean by giving you an example, Let's say I build a script that is English but uses Arabic script for second half of alphabet (N and afterwards) so my first sentence would be "Damن تheزe سپellcheckeرز I meaنت پaترiوتiست" Anyone who knows both Persian and English can read this (with some difficulties I guess) and they might even find it fun. But I can't use this script in English Wikipedia because it's original and not made for the language properly. Same situation applies here, Lurish speakers who doesn't know Kurdish language (which is virtually all of Lurish speakers) can't get meaning of this language both because of original script and vocabulary. I already showed it to several Lurish speakers in broad demography (so I get to see speakers of all variants of Lurish) no success at all.

Also I couldn't find any record of Dr. Moshkriz and it was claimed he teaches at Iranshahr university (a small university unlike Shiraz university which originally they claimed he is teaching)

Please tell if you have trouble understanding me. Best

On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 1:45 AM Amir Ladsgroup <ladsgroup@gmail.com mailto:ladsgroup@gmail.com> wrote:

Hey,
1- Making fun of my English (which is not perfect I admit) is a
little bit unethical. Don't you think? I expected higher standards
from this mailing list
2- Situation of Iranian languages is a political issue, I
definitely agree but not this case. I was actually asked by the
same person who started this discussion in fa.wp who speaks
Lurish. Is it okay for to make this Wiki again with proper script?
and I said, why not? that would be awesome. I'm not like these
crazy protagonists that think the only language in Iran is Persian
and other ones are its dialects. I definitely in favor of
re-launching this wiki with proper scripts that are readable by
Lur people. Not a handful number of people.
3- I think originality of this script is implicitly mentioned in
email of the professor, quoting: "There are some quirky
orthographic things [...] off of words, but many fewer issues than
a lot of the other homemade scripts I’ve seen used for Luri."
My attention came to word "homemade". Have you explained to him
what "originality" means in context of Wikipedia? I must explain
to you: This script is readable if the person knows Kurdish
because the extra letters came from ckb language but Kurdish and
Lurish are two different languages with different speakers with
different ethnically backgrounds. please explain the situation
properly to him and ask if a normal Lur who was educated in Iran,
can read this script or not.

Best
On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 3:17 PM Oliver Stegen
<oliver_stegen@sil.org <mailto:oliver_stegen@sil.org>> wrote:

    In May 2015, I had contacted Erik Anonby, a Canadian linguist
    with specialty in Iranian languages, and he actually verified
    the contents of lrc:wp (then still in the incubator). It was
    him who also provided contact for Mehdi Moshkriz who is now
    maligned by fa:wp editors. [Btw, I do not find Amir
    Ladsgroup's English much better than Mogoeilor's.]
    I actually assume that this is a predominantly political
    issue, and I would caution against allowing fa:wp editors to
    interfere in lrc:wp issues - especially when we already have
    independent verification from a bona fide Canadian (i.e.
    non-Persian!) scholar. I append his reply fyi.

    -------------------------------------------------------------

    from Erik Anonby's reply (May 2015):

    "I know Bakhtiari and Southern Luri a lot better than Northern
    Luri – most of my knowledge of N Luri is lexicon and phonology
    rather than whole texts.
    But from looking at several articles, it looks well-enough
    written to me. There are some quirky orthographic things (like
    splitting the –e “is” / direct object suffix) off of words,
    but many fewer issues than a lot of the other homemade scripts
    I’ve seen used for Luri.
    The author is also using Khorramabadi dialect, which is the
    central dialect but heavily influenced by Persian and not
    typical of the language as a whole. He could still use this
    dialect but with a bit of accommodation to the language as a
    whole; for example, it’s a bit of a shame he doesn’t use Luri
    verb prefixes like present/continuous i- (which is used pretty
    much everywhere other than in Khorramabad) rather than
    Khorramabadi mi- (which is from Persian).
    Two scholars who could verify the content (naturalness,
    spelling, etc.) better than me are:
    Sekandar Amanollahi (retired; I don’t have his contact info)
    Mehdi Moshkriz (at Iranshahr University until recently; his
    email is [...])
    Mehdi is very nice and could probably put you in touch with
    many other Luri scholars, too, to check the articles."


    On 31-Jan-16 9:02 PM, MF-Warburg wrote:

...

    It's very embarrassing for us if that is true.
    Is it possible that the language used is not Northern Lurish,
    but at least correct Central L.?
    Do we have any other contacts in the linguistic world who
    could help verify it?

    I agree that the wiki ought to be closed if it's not in a
    real language.

    Am 30.01.2016 02:46 schrieb "Amir Ladsgroup"
    <ladsgroup@gmail.com <mailto:ladsgroup@gmail.com>>:

        Hey,
        Several days ago a discussion
        <https://fa.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D9%88%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%E2%80%8C%D9%BE%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%D9%82%D9%87%D9%88%D9%87%E2%80%8C%D8%AE%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%87/%DA%AF%D9%88%D9%86%D8%A7%DA%AF%D9%88%D9%86&oldid=16528438#.D9.88.DB.8C.DA.A9.DB.8C_.D9.84.D8.B1.DB.8C>
        has been started in Persian Wikipedia regarding
        Northern[1] Luri wikipedia (lrc.wikimedia.org
        <http://lrc.wikimedia.org>).
        If I want to give you a summary of the discussion. Mostly
        they say script is unreadable (it's greatly different
        than Persian script) and also they noted that vocabulary
        is tried to be away of Persian (and close to Kuridsh) in
        a bad way and thus it's un-understandable for people who
        talk this variant of Luri (As it was mentioned this Luri
        is being spoken in Khoramabbad and Broujerd, two big
        cities of Iran). We can confirm that we showed this wiki
        to several people who speak Luri and in either Khoramabad
        or Boroujerd. None of them could understand most of
        content of this wiki. We also provided a big table at the
        discussion in Persian Wikipedia and compared several
        words in the wiki to what they actually speak in Northern
        Luri.

        I found this
        <http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.org.wikimedia.langcom/150> in
        which User:Mogoeilor told you that Gholamreza Mehramooz
        (User:Mehramooz) is a university professor with PhD and
        interestingly when we asked about the script in that wiki
        User:Mogoeilor (the same person) told us the script is
        made up by a User:Mehramooz because he has MSc in
        linguistics (edit
        <https://lrc.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%DA%A4%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%D9%BE%D8%A6%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%DA%86%D8%A7%D8%B3%D8%AA_%D8%AD%D9%88%D9%99%D9%86%DB%95/%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1_%DA%A4%D8%A7_%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1&diff=prev&oldid=26654>)
        . More interestingly in his blog he says he has a MSc in
        translation studies (published about a year and half ago
        <http://www.zistrah.blogfa.com/post/16>) You can verify
        the blog in his user page.

        [1]: Also an interesting conversation
        <https://lrc.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%DA%A4%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%D9%BE%D8%A6%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%DA%86%D8%A7%D8%B3%D8%AA_%D8%AD%D9%88%D9%99%D9%86%DB%95/%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1_%DA%A4%D8%A7_%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1&oldid=34935#.D9.84.DB.8A.D8.B1.DB.8C_.D8.B4.D9.88.D9.85.D8.A7.D9.84.DB.8C>
        happened in this wiki in Persian. It seems they changed
        named of the wiki from Northern Luri to Minjaii Luri
        "Minjaii" is a word in Luri that in English means
        "Centeral Luri"

        Best

        _______________________________________________
        Langcom mailing list
        Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org
        <mailto:Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org>
        https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

Hoi, Amir, I would be really happy to have an academic knowledgeable about Luri to give his opinion.

It is distressing to learn that a Wiki may not be read because of the insistence of editors on a script that is not legible. I understand Oliver's argument however I doubt that Luri is unique to Wikipedia. If it is, we have a problem. How to deal with is unclear. When an academic that you trust provides us with some proper explanations, we can digest it, ask further questions if need be and then decide what to do.

I would be obliged if you make the necessary contacts. Thanks, Gerard

On 3 February 2016 at 11:20, Amir Ladsgroup ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:

That's very fond of Gerard :) Regarding my English, You could defend it without judging about my English. Regarding the homemade script: A huge proportion (almost all) of Lur people went to school and are educated but most of them no matter where they originated can't read this wiki which means we have a big problem, It's like using sign language script for English and saying look! without learning you can't read. There is another script for this language which is readable by anyone. So it's easy to see argument of homemade scripts is definitely wrong. It's interesting to me that admins of those Wikis admitted on originality of this script several times and they also mentioned that User:Mehramooz made up this script.

Regarding your analysis. Please also see this table https://fa.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%88%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%E2%80%8C%D9%BE%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%D9%82%D9%87%D9%88%D9%87%E2%80%8C%D8%AE%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%87/%DA%AF%D9%88%D9%86%D8%A7%DA%AF%D9%88%D9%86/%D8%A8%D8%A7%DB%8C%DA%AF%D8%A7%D9%86%DB%8C_%DB%B5%DB%B5#.D9.88.DB.8C.DA.A9.DB.8C_.D9.84.D8.B1.DB.8C. Biggest difference between the original script (script of the wiki right now) and the script being used by Lurish speakers is characters like "ڤ", "ئ", etc. For example "ئ" is already being used both in Persian and Arabic but not as often as this original script is using. Instead in the current script of Lurish (the proper script IMO) "ۆ" is being used (which is not a Persian character and it's solely a Kurdish one) and this character is more often. This example shows the proper script(TM) is not just Persian, in some cases it's closer to Kurdish. Or using "أ" instead of "ه‌" sometimes (and not all the times) to make the script more complicated, i.e. give it unnecessary precision which make it hard for ordinary readers. These examples are not easy to see for people who doesn't have a deep knowledge about Iranian languages. I can go on for a very long time and give you much more examples *if you want.* Last sentence refers to the thing I want to say here: I can convince you if you want to listen. I'm not trying to fulfill my nationalism, I believe in no borders. I'm only a wiki lover who tries to make Wikipedia readable for sever million more people. I received lots of complaints from Lur Wikipedians about this language, people who didn't know how to make a compliment to the language committee but they knew me as a cross-wiki contributor and they shared their concerns with me. I made some researches (by asking offline from Lur friends I knew which I'm happy to have a lot of them) and came to the same conclusion so I sent an email here. But you are pretty aggressive towards me for an unknown reason insisting on political part of Iranian languages. Frankly I have much more important things to do and I won't continue until langcom members think it's needed.

Besy

On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 12:51 PM Oliver Stegen oliver_stegen@sil.org wrote:

...

Okay, I've had a look into this (I actually do read Arabic script).

1. No recently edited articles in lrc:wp which I looked at show *any*

mixture of scripts; they are completely based on Arabic script, with language-specific modifications like necessary for any non-Arabic language, e.g. گ (as also used in Persian but not original in Arabic script). The example below is not comparable as it actually mixes two completely different scripts, namely Arabic and Latin. Faulting special characters in Northern Luri writing which deviate from Persian is like faulting Germanic languages for using different grapheme combination for the same sound, e.g. phonetic [u] is written oo in English, oe in Dutch, o in Norwegian and u in German, or for faulting German to add special characters like ä, ö, ü and ß instead of sticking to the original Latin alphabet. 2. Lurish languages are closely related to both Kurdish and Persian languages (with lexical cognate percentages between 60% and 85%), hence it is no wonder that to a Persian speaker, Luri languages look like they had been mixed with Kurdish. 3. Even an individual language like Northern Luri constitutes a dialect chain which means that any text written by a specific Northern Luri writer may not be recognised by another Northern Luri speaker as their particular speech variety. 4. After having received the contacts of Dr. Moshkriz from Dr. Anonby (the message makes clear that Dr. Moshkriz had taught at Iranshahr Uni but left it prior to May 2015), I communicated with Dr. Moshkriz himself - it usually is sufficient for a language committee member to vouchsafe for the existence of a verifying scholar without revealing private information about their sources.

[For information given under nos. 2 and 3 above, please refer to the 2003 article "Update on Luri: how many languages?" in JRAS, Series 3, 13(2), pages 171-197.]

My conclusion: The accusations against edits at lrc:wp cannot be upheld from a linguistic point of view.

In the hope that this matter can be laid to rest now, Oliver

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Oliver Stegen, PhD Linguistics Consultant, SIL Uganda-Tanzania Email: *Oliver_Stegen@sil.org Oliver_Stegen@sil.org*

http://sil.academia.edu/OliverStegenhttp://sil.academia.edu/OliverStegen http://sil.academia.edu/OliverStegen*

On 02-Feb-16 4:29 AM, Amir Ladsgroup wrote:

Damn these spellcheckers I meant "patriotist https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism". I try to explain what I mean by giving you an example, Let's say I build a script that is English but uses Arabic script for second half of alphabet (N and afterwards) so my first sentence would be "Damن تheزe سپellcheckeرز I meaنت پaترiوتiست" Anyone who knows both Persian and English can read this (with some difficulties I guess) and they might even find it fun. But I can't use this script in English Wikipedia because it's original and not made for the language properly. Same situation applies here, Lurish speakers who doesn't know Kurdish language (which is virtually all of Lurish speakers) can't get meaning of this language both because of original script and vocabulary. I already showed it to several Lurish speakers in broad demography (so I get to see speakers of all variants of Lurish) no success at all.

Also I couldn't find any record of Dr. Moshkriz and it was claimed he teaches at Iranshahr university (a small university unlike Shiraz university which originally they claimed he is teaching)

Please tell if you have trouble understanding me. Best

On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 1:45 AM Amir Ladsgroup ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:

...

Hey, 1- Making fun of my English (which is not perfect I admit) is a little bit unethical. Don't you think? I expected higher standards from this mailing list 2- Situation of Iranian languages is a political issue, I definitely agree but not this case. I was actually asked by the same person who started this discussion in fa.wp who speaks Lurish. Is it okay for to make this Wiki again with proper script? and I said, why not? that would be awesome. I'm not like these crazy protagonists that think the only language in Iran is Persian and other ones are its dialects. I definitely in favor of re-launching this wiki with proper scripts that are readable by Lur people. Not a handful number of people. 3- I think originality of this script is implicitly mentioned in email of the professor, quoting: "There are some quirky orthographic things [...] off of words, but many fewer issues than a lot of the other homemade scripts I’ve seen used for Luri." My attention came to word "homemade". Have you explained to him what "originality" means in context of Wikipedia? I must explain to you: This script is readable if the person knows Kurdish because the extra letters came from ckb language but Kurdish and Lurish are two different languages with different speakers with different ethnically backgrounds. please explain the situation properly to him and ask if a normal Lur who was educated in Iran, can read this script or not.

Best On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 3:17 PM Oliver Stegen oliver_stegen@sil.org wrote:

...

In May 2015, I had contacted Erik Anonby, a Canadian linguist with specialty in Iranian languages, and he actually verified the contents of lrc:wp (then still in the incubator). It was him who also provided contact for Mehdi Moshkriz who is now maligned by fa:wp editors. [Btw, I do not find Amir Ladsgroup's English much better than Mogoeilor's.] I actually assume that this is a predominantly political issue, and I would caution against allowing fa:wp editors to interfere in lrc:wp issues

• especially when we already have independent verification from a bona fide

Canadian (i.e. non-Persian!) scholar. I append his reply fyi.

---

from Erik Anonby's reply (May 2015):

"I know Bakhtiari and Southern Luri a lot better than Northern Luri – most of my knowledge of N Luri is lexicon and phonology rather than whole texts. But from looking at several articles, it looks well-enough written to me. There are some quirky orthographic things (like splitting the –e “is” / direct object suffix) off of words, but many fewer issues than a lot of the other homemade scripts I’ve seen used for Luri. The author is also using Khorramabadi dialect, which is the central dialect but heavily influenced by Persian and not typical of the language as a whole. He could still use this dialect but with a bit of accommodation to the language as a whole; for example, it’s a bit of a shame he doesn’t use Luri verb prefixes like present/continuous i- (which is used pretty much everywhere other than in Khorramabad) rather than Khorramabadi mi- (which is from Persian). Two scholars who could verify the content (naturalness, spelling, etc.) better than me are: Sekandar Amanollahi (retired; I don’t have his contact info) Mehdi Moshkriz (at Iranshahr University until recently; his email is [...]) Mehdi is very nice and could probably put you in touch with many other Luri scholars, too, to check the articles."

On 31-Jan-16 9:02 PM, MF-Warburg wrote:

It's very embarrassing for us if that is true. Is it possible that the language used is not Northern Lurish, but at least correct Central L.? Do we have any other contacts in the linguistic world who could help verify it?

I agree that the wiki ought to be closed if it's not in a real language. Am 30.01.2016 02:46 schrieb "Amir Ladsgroup" ladsgroup@gmail.com:

...

Hey, Several days ago a discussion https://fa.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D9%88%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%E2%80%8C%D9%BE%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%D9%82%D9%87%D9%88%D9%87%E2%80%8C%D8%AE%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%87/%DA%AF%D9%88%D9%86%D8%A7%DA%AF%D9%88%D9%86&oldid=16528438#.D9.88.DB.8C.DA.A9.DB.8C_.D9.84.D8.B1.DB.8C has been started in Persian Wikipedia regarding Northern[1] Luri wikipedia ( lrc.wikimedia.org). If I want to give you a summary of the discussion. Mostly they say script is unreadable (it's greatly different than Persian script) and also they noted that vocabulary is tried to be away of Persian (and close to Kuridsh) in a bad way and thus it's un-understandable for people who talk this variant of Luri (As it was mentioned this Luri is being spoken in Khoramabbad and Broujerd, two big cities of Iran). We can confirm that we showed this wiki to several people who speak Luri and in either Khoramabad or Boroujerd. None of them could understand most of content of this wiki. We also provided a big table at the discussion in Persian Wikipedia and compared several words in the wiki to what they actually speak in Northern Luri.

I found this http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.org.wikimedia.langcom/150 in which User:Mogoeilor told you that Gholamreza Mehramooz (User:Mehramooz) is a university professor with PhD and interestingly when we asked about the script in that wiki User:Mogoeilor (the same person) told us the script is made up by a User:Mehramooz because he has MSc in linguistics (edit https://lrc.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%DA%A4%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%D9%BE%D8%A6%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%DA%86%D8%A7%D8%B3%D8%AA_%D8%AD%D9%88%D9%99%D9%86%DB%95/%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1_%DA%A4%D8%A7_%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1&diff=prev&oldid=26654) . More interestingly in his blog he says he has a MSc in translation studies (published about a year and half ago http://www.zistrah.blogfa.com/post/16) You can verify the blog in his user page.

[1]: Also an interesting conversation https://lrc.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%DA%A4%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%D9%BE%D8%A6%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%DA%86%D8%A7%D8%B3%D8%AA_%D8%AD%D9%88%D9%99%D9%86%DB%95/%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1_%DA%A4%D8%A7_%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1&oldid=34935#.D9.84.DB.8A.D8.B1.DB.8C_.D8.B4.D9.88.D9.85.D8.A7.D9.84.DB.8C happened in this wiki in Persian. It seems they changed named of the wiki from Northern Luri to Minjaii Luri "Minjaii" is a word in Luri that in English means "Centeral Luri"

Best

---

Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

---

Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

---

Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

I apologize, Amir, for having come across as aggressive towards you to the point that you felt obliged to write, "you are pretty aggressive towards me for an unknown reason". Please believe me that this is neither my attitude nor my intention.

What I reacted against was a) the example of Arabic/Latin script mixing, and b) the questioning of Dr. Moshkriz' credentials (which seemed unfair to me). I, like you, also have many other important things to do, hence I'm rather direct in my communication (which is probably compounded by my being German).

I have received a reply from Dr. Erik Anonby who is an academic knowledgeable about Luri languages. I had forwarded the entire communication thread for him (after all, it's on the public langcom list), and he expressed his disappointment about these developments. He agrees with you that the current orthography is more difficult to read than the previously used one, yet insists that the language expressed by it is good Northern Luri and not another language. Hence, the problem is of an orthographic and not a linguistic nature. Dr. Anonby is happy to give orthography development guidance to the lrc:wp editors, especially as he is currently publishing a book on orthography development in Luri languages - which unfortunately will only be available in six months time. I append the relevant parts of his message here below.

In the hope that lrc:wp can be revised orthographically so that it will be accessible to all N Luri readers without being shut down, and with best wishes, Oliver

On 03-Feb-16 2:59 PM, Erik Anonby wrote:

[...] The language written in the N Luri Wikipedia is indeed N Luri, but the orthography is very different than one was there before, and less readable.

It’s true that there are some symbols and conventions which resemble Kurdish (like the way that all short vowels are written, and hamze is written on a small character at the beginning of words), but strictly speaking the orthography is not based on Kurdish either.

I have been working on orthographies of Iranian languages for some time now, and my personal opinion is that for readability’s sake, it should be as close to Persian as possible, but marking all linguistic differences from Persian, including a lot of short vowel diacritics. I am in the process of publishing a book on orthography of Bakhtiari, also in the Luri group and immediately to the south, where we test different conventions and weigh the options, and I hope that many of the principles there would be useful to the contributors. However, it will likely be about six months until it is released and I can’t share the manuscript right now. But it will be freely available online once it is released.

It’s a shame that the contributors maligned Dr Moshkriz based on the university where he worked. (As is turns out, Shiraz closed its PhD program in linguistics, so Moshkriz had to go elsewhere; I believe he is now based at Shahid Beheshti University in Tehran, where he is doing a postdoc). I don’t like to be part of such a negative online community. There are many good scholars working at the smaller universities of Iran, and in fact many good writers of Iran’s many languages that are not university scholars. We are all working together to facilitate the use of Iran’s linguistics heritage in written format, and we should help each other and consult each other respectfully rather than tearing good-intentioned works down with criticism directed at people (which is unfair), rather than ideas (which is fair).

Please communicate my disappointment, as written in these paragraphs, to the people concerned.

Also, I think that what people are calling “Central Luri” is indeed a type of Northern Luri (or in fact the same language), which is spoken in Luristan Province and some surrounding areas. But in my opinion, the issues facing us here are primarily orthographic rather than linguistic.

I am happy to communicate further about specific questions you might have. [...]

On 03-Feb-16 2:54 PM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:

Hoi, Amir, I would be really happy to have an academic knowledgeable about Luri to give his opinion.

It is distressing to learn that a Wiki may not be read because of the insistence of editors on a script that is not legible. I understand Oliver's argument however I doubt that Luri is unique to Wikipedia. If it is, we have a problem. How to deal with is unclear. When an academic that you trust provides us with some proper explanations, we can digest it, ask further questions if need be and then decide what to do.

I would be obliged if you make the necessary contacts. Thanks, Gerard

On 3 February 2016 at 11:20, Amir Ladsgroup <ladsgroup@gmail.com mailto:ladsgroup@gmail.com> wrote:

That's very fond of Gerard :)
Regarding my English, You could defend it without judging about my
English.
Regarding the homemade script: A huge proportion (almost all) of
Lur people went to school and are educated but most of them no
matter where they originated can't read this wiki which means we
have a big problem, It's like using sign language script for
English and saying look! without learning you can't read. There is
another script for this language which is readable by anyone. So
it's easy to see argument of homemade scripts is definitely wrong.
It's interesting to me that admins of those Wikis admitted on
originality of this script several times and they also mentioned
that User:Mehramooz made up this script.

Regarding your analysis. Please also see this table
<https://fa.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%88%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%E2%80%8C%D9%BE%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%D9%82%D9%87%D9%88%D9%87%E2%80%8C%D8%AE%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%87/%DA%AF%D9%88%D9%86%D8%A7%DA%AF%D9%88%D9%86/%D8%A8%D8%A7%DB%8C%DA%AF%D8%A7%D9%86%DB%8C_%DB%B5%DB%B5#.D9.88.DB.8C.DA.A9.DB.8C_.D9.84.D8.B1.DB.8C>.
Biggest difference between the original script (script of the wiki
right now) and the script being used by Lurish speakers is
characters like "ڤ", "ئ", etc. For example "ئ" is already being
used both in Persian and Arabic but not as often as this original
script is using. Instead in the current script of Lurish (the
proper script IMO) "ۆ" is being used (which is not a Persian
character and it's solely a Kurdish one) and this character is
more often. This example shows the proper script(TM) is not just
Persian, in some cases it's closer to Kurdish. Or using "أ"
instead of "ه‌" sometimes (and not all the times) to make the
script more complicated, i.e. give it unnecessary precision which
make it hard for ordinary readers. These examples are not easy to
see for people who doesn't have a deep knowledge about Iranian
languages. I can go on for a very long time and give you much
more examples *if you want.*
Last sentence refers to the thing I want to say here: I can
convince you if you want to listen. I'm not trying to fulfill my
nationalism, I believe in no borders. I'm only a wiki lover who
tries to make Wikipedia readable for sever million more people. I
received lots of complaints from Lur Wikipedians about this
language, people who didn't know how to make a compliment to the
language committee but they knew me as a cross-wiki contributor
and they shared their concerns with me. I made some researches (by
asking offline from Lur friends I knew which I'm happy to have a
lot of them) and came to the same conclusion so I sent an email
here. But you are pretty aggressive towards me for an unknown
reason insisting on political part of Iranian languages. Frankly I
have much more important things to do and I won't continue until
langcom members think it's needed.

Besy

On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 12:51 PM Oliver Stegen
<oliver_stegen@sil.org <mailto:oliver_stegen@sil.org>> wrote:

    Okay, I've had a look into this (I actually do read Arabic
    script).

    1. No recently edited articles in lrc:wp which I looked at
    show *any* mixture of scripts; they are completely based on
    Arabic script, with language-specific modifications like
    necessary for any non-Arabic language, e.g. گ (as also used in
    Persian but not original in Arabic script). The example below
    is not comparable as it actually mixes two completely
    different scripts, namely Arabic and Latin. Faulting special
    characters in Northern Luri writing which deviate from Persian
    is like faulting Germanic languages for using different
    grapheme combination for the same sound, e.g. phonetic [u] is
    written oo in English, oe in Dutch, o in Norwegian and u in
    German, or for faulting German to add special characters like
    ä, ö, ü and ß instead of sticking to the original Latin alphabet.
    2. Lurish languages are closely related to both Kurdish and
    Persian languages (with lexical cognate percentages between
    60% and 85%), hence it is no wonder that to a Persian speaker,
    Luri languages look like they had been mixed with Kurdish.
    3. Even an individual language like Northern Luri constitutes
    a dialect chain which means that any text written by a
    specific Northern Luri writer may not be recognised by another
    Northern Luri speaker as their particular speech variety.
    4. After having received the contacts of Dr. Moshkriz from Dr.
    Anonby (the message makes clear that Dr. Moshkriz had taught
    at Iranshahr Uni but left it prior to May 2015), I
    communicated with Dr. Moshkriz himself - it usually is
    sufficient for a language committee member to vouchsafe for
    the existence of a verifying scholar without revealing private
    information about their sources.

    [For information given under nos. 2 and 3 above, please refer
    to the 2003 article "Update on Luri: how many languages?" in
    JRAS, Series 3, 13(2), pages 171-197.]

    My conclusion: The accusations against edits at lrc:wp cannot
    be upheld from a linguistic point of view.

    In the hope that this matter can be laid to rest now,
    Oliver

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Oliver Stegen, PhD
    Linguistics Consultant, SIL Uganda-Tanzania
    Email: _Oliver_Stegen@sil.org <mailto:Oliver_Stegen@sil.org>_
    _<http://sil.academia.edu/OliverStegen>http://sil.academia.edu/OliverStegen_



    On 02-Feb-16 4:29 AM, Amir Ladsgroup wrote:

...

    Damn these spellcheckers I meant "patriotist
    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism>".
    I try to explain what I mean by giving you an example, Let's
    say I build a script that is English but uses Arabic script
    for second half of alphabet (N and afterwards) so my
    first sentence would be "Damن تheزe سپellcheckeرز I meaنت
    پaترiوتiست"
    Anyone who knows both Persian and English can read this (with
    some difficulties I guess) and they might even find it fun.
    But I can't use this script in English Wikipedia because it's
    original and not made for the language properly.
    Same situation applies here, Lurish speakers who doesn't know
    Kurdish language (which is virtually all of Lurish speakers)
    can't get meaning of this language both because of original
    script and vocabulary. I already showed it to several Lurish
    speakers in broad demography (so I get to see speakers of all
    variants of Lurish) no success at all.

    Also I couldn't find any record of Dr. Moshkriz and it was
    claimed he teaches at Iranshahr university (a small
    university unlike Shiraz university which originally they
    claimed he is teaching)

    Please tell if you have trouble understanding me.
    Best

    On 02-Feb-16 10:39 AM, Oliver Stegen wrote:

...

    ad 1 - I didn't make fun of anyone's English. I reacted to
    the proposal to put Mogoeilor on moderation due to his
    imperfect English. I actually defended all non-English
    participants in this communication, asking not to restrict
    their communication just because their English took a bit
    more effort to understand.
    ad 2 - I'm glad to hear of your support for lrc:wp.
    ad 3 - I'm not familiar with the language situation in Iran
    (which is why I contacted Dr. Erik Anonby). However, I know
    something about orthography development (it's actually part
    of my job as a linguistics consultant for minority languages
    in East Africa). As long as there is no standard (and there
    doesn't seem to be for Northern Luri), all scripts are
    "homemade" in some sense of the word. And no script, whether
    "pure" or "mixed" (both of which are acceptable in
    orthography development), will be readable without teaching,
    explaining and literacy activities.

    I'll inform you of Dr. Anonby's reply once I've made contact.

    On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 1:45 AM Amir Ladsgroup
    <ladsgroup@gmail.com <mailto:ladsgroup@gmail.com>> wrote:

        Hey,
        1- Making fun of my English (which is not perfect I
        admit) is a little bit unethical. Don't you think? I
        expected higher standards from this mailing list
        2- Situation of Iranian languages is a political issue, I
        definitely agree but not this case. I was actually asked
        by the same person who started this discussion in fa.wp
        who speaks Lurish. Is it okay for to make this Wiki again
        with proper script? and I said, why not? that would be
        awesome. I'm not like these crazy protagonists that think
        the only language in Iran is Persian and other ones are
        its dialects. I definitely in favor of re-launching this
        wiki with proper scripts that are readable by Lur people.
        Not a handful number of people.
        3- I think originality of this script is implicitly
        mentioned in email of the professor, quoting: "There are
        some quirky orthographic things [...] off of words, but
        many fewer issues than a lot of the other homemade
        scripts I’ve seen used for Luri."
        My attention came to word "homemade". Have you explained
        to him what "originality" means in context of Wikipedia?
        I must explain to you: This script is readable if the
        person knows Kurdish because the extra letters came from
        ckb language but Kurdish and Lurish are two different
        languages with different speakers with different
        ethnically backgrounds. please explain the situation
        properly to him and ask if a normal Lur who was educated
        in Iran, can read this script or not.

        Best
        On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 3:17 PM Oliver Stegen
        <oliver_stegen@sil.org <mailto:oliver_stegen@sil.org>> wrote:

            In May 2015, I had contacted Erik Anonby, a Canadian
            linguist with specialty in Iranian languages, and he
            actually verified the contents of lrc:wp (then still
            in the incubator). It was him who also provided
            contact for Mehdi Moshkriz who is now maligned by
            fa:wp editors. [Btw, I do not find Amir Ladsgroup's
            English much better than Mogoeilor's.]
            I actually assume that this is a predominantly
            political issue, and I would caution against allowing
            fa:wp editors to interfere in lrc:wp issues -
            especially when we already have independent
            verification from a bona fide Canadian (i.e.
            non-Persian!) scholar. I append his reply fyi.

            -------------------------------------------------------------

            from Erik Anonby's reply (May 2015):

            "I know Bakhtiari and Southern Luri a lot better than
            Northern Luri – most of my knowledge of N Luri is
            lexicon and phonology rather than whole texts.
            But from looking at several articles, it looks
            well-enough written to me. There are some quirky
            orthographic things (like splitting the –e “is” /
            direct object suffix) off of words, but many fewer
            issues than a lot of the other homemade scripts I’ve
            seen used for Luri.
            The author is also using Khorramabadi dialect, which
            is the central dialect but heavily influenced by
            Persian and not typical of the language as a whole.
            He could still use this dialect but with a bit of
            accommodation to the language as a whole; for
            example, it’s a bit of a shame he doesn’t use Luri
            verb prefixes like present/continuous i- (which is
            used pretty much everywhere other than in
            Khorramabad) rather than Khorramabadi mi- (which is
            from Persian).
            Two scholars who could verify the content
            (naturalness, spelling, etc.) better than me are:
            Sekandar Amanollahi (retired; I don’t have his
            contact info)
            Mehdi Moshkriz (at Iranshahr University until
            recently; his email is [...])
            Mehdi is very nice and could probably put you in
            touch with many other Luri scholars, too, to check
            the articles."


            On 31-Jan-16 9:02 PM, MF-Warburg wrote:

...

            It's very embarrassing for us if that is true.
            Is it possible that the language used is not
            Northern Lurish, but at least correct Central L.?
            Do we have any other contacts in the linguistic
            world who could help verify it?

            I agree that the wiki ought to be closed if it's not
            in a real language.

            Am 30.01.2016 02:46 schrieb "Amir Ladsgroup"
            <ladsgroup@gmail.com <mailto:ladsgroup@gmail.com>>:

                Hey,
                Several days ago a discussion
                <https://fa.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D9%88%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%E2%80%8C%D9%BE%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%D9%82%D9%87%D9%88%D9%87%E2%80%8C%D8%AE%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%87/%DA%AF%D9%88%D9%86%D8%A7%DA%AF%D9%88%D9%86&oldid=16528438#.D9.88.DB.8C.DA.A9.DB.8C_.D9.84.D8.B1.DB.8C>
                has been started in Persian Wikipedia regarding
                Northern[1] Luri wikipedia (lrc.wikimedia.org
                <http://lrc.wikimedia.org>).
                If I want to give you a summary of the
                discussion. Mostly they say script is unreadable
                (it's greatly different than Persian script) and
                also they noted that vocabulary is tried to be
                away of Persian (and close to Kuridsh) in a bad
                way and thus it's un-understandable for people
                who talk this variant of Luri (As it was
                mentioned this Luri is being spoken in
                Khoramabbad and Broujerd, two big cities of
                Iran). We can confirm that we showed this wiki
                to several people who speak Luri and in either
                Khoramabad or Boroujerd. None of them could
                understand most of content of this wiki. We also
                provided a big table at the discussion in
                Persian Wikipedia and compared several words in
                the wiki to what they actually speak in Northern
                Luri.

                I found this
                <http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.org.wikimedia.langcom/150> in
                which User:Mogoeilor told you that Gholamreza
                Mehramooz (User:Mehramooz) is a university
                professor with PhD and interestingly when we
                asked about the script in that wiki
                User:Mogoeilor (the same person) told us the
                script is made up by a User:Mehramooz because he
                has MSc in linguistics (edit
                <https://lrc.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%DA%A4%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%D9%BE%D8%A6%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%DA%86%D8%A7%D8%B3%D8%AA_%D8%AD%D9%88%D9%99%D9%86%DB%95/%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1_%DA%A4%D8%A7_%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1&diff=prev&oldid=26654>)
                . More interestingly in his blog he says he has
                a MSc in translation studies (published about a
                year and half ago
                <http://www.zistrah.blogfa.com/post/16>) You can
                verify the blog in his user page.

                [1]: Also an interesting conversation
                <https://lrc.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%DA%A4%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%D9%BE%D8%A6%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%DA%86%D8%A7%D8%B3%D8%AA_%D8%AD%D9%88%D9%99%D9%86%DB%95/%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1_%DA%A4%D8%A7_%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1&oldid=34935#.D9.84.DB.8A.D8.B1.DB.8C_.D8.B4.D9.88.D9.85.D8.A7.D9.84.DB.8C>
                happened in this wiki in Persian. It seems they
                changed named of the wiki from Northern Luri to
                Minjaii Luri "Minjaii" is a word in Luri that in
                English means "Centeral Luri"

                Best

                _______________________________________________
                Langcom mailing list
                Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org
                <mailto:Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org>
                https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

    _______________________________________________
    Langcom mailing list
    Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org>
    https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom


_______________________________________________
Langcom mailing list
Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

---

Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

Who is “gfb hjjhjh”, “c933103@gmail.com”?

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/