I think this first set of five Wikipedia requests from 2012 is pretty straightforward, even if I am going to leave three of them open for a week to make sure nobody has a problem with my proposed disposition of the requests. However, do please start keeping an eye on these, because the next couple of sets are going to raise some policy questions that I am really going to need LangCom as a whole to address. Thank you.
----
Wikipedia Mi'kmaqhttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Micmac (mic): Aboriginal language of New England and the Atlantic Provinces of Canada. 7200 native speakers. Test has over 200 pages, albeit mostly one-liners with pictures. Eligible.
Valencian Wikipediahttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Valenciano: This is described as the main language of the autonomous community of Valencia in Spain, and has 2.4 million speakers. It has no langcode, and a request for one was rejected in 2006, on the grounds that Valencian is simply a variety of Catalan. (SIL/Ethnologue still describes this as a dialect of Catalan.) Catalan Wikipedia apparently allows content in Valencian. Holding for one week for LangCom comments, but I propose to reject, while encouraging potential contributors to contribute to Catalan Wikipedia.
Wikipedia Prussian 2https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Prussian_2 (prg): Prussian went extinct in the 18th century, but there are serious revival efforts underway, and apparently a first, new native speaker. Test has had some modest activity in recent months. I'm thinking we should mark as eligible, while noting that if and when it actually comes to a point of approval—it has fewer than 20 pages right now—we'd hope to see that the language revival is continuing outside WMF.
Wikipedia Khinalughttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Khinalug (kjj): Endangered language of Northeast Caucasus with about 1,000 speakers. Test has about 100 pages. Eligible.
Wikipedia Romanized Khowarhttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Romanized_Khowar: (1) There is no evidence that there is really a community needing this, particularly as a separate project. (Further, there's no evidence it couldn't be done by script converter.) (2) This is another project by RA Chitrali, whom we had trouble with on the original Khowar Wikipedia project not too long ago. Propose to reject. (On-wiki, I'm just going to use explanation 1 above. Explanation 2 is simply an additional reason to be skeptical.)
Steven
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Hoi, Prusian is imho not eligible, there are no native speakers. There is little reason to believe that it is in a category similar to Ancient Greek.
For the rest it is fine. Thanks, GerardM
On 16 July 2018 at 19:12, Steven White Koala19890@hotmail.com wrote:
I think this first set of five Wikipedia requests from 2012 is pretty straightforward, even if I am going to leave three of them open for a week to make sure nobody has a problem with my proposed disposition of the requests. However, do please start keeping an eye on these, because the next couple of sets are going to raise some policy questions that I am really going to need LangCom as a whole to address. Thank you.
Wikipedia Mi'kmaq https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Micmac (mic): Aboriginal language of New England and the Atlantic Provinces of Canada. 7200 native speakers. Test has over 200 pages, albeit mostly one-liners with pictures. Eligible.
Valencian Wikipedia https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Valenciano: This is described as the main language of the autonomous community of Valencia in Spain, and has 2.4 million speakers. It has no langcode, and a request for one was rejected in 2006, on the grounds that Valencian is simply a variety of Catalan. (SIL/Ethnologue still describes this as a dialect of Catalan.) Catalan Wikipedia apparently allows content in Valencian. Holding for one week for LangCom comments, but I propose to reject, while encouraging potential contributors to contribute to Catalan Wikipedia.
Wikipedia Prussian 2 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Prussian_2 (prg): Prussian went extinct in the 18th century, but there are serious revival efforts underway, and apparently a first, new native speaker. Test has had some modest activity in recent months. I'm thinking we should mark as eligible, while noting that if and when it actually comes to a point of approval—it has fewer than 20 pages right now—we'd hope to see that the language revival is continuing outside WMF.
Wikipedia Khinalug https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Khinalug (kjj): Endangered language of Northeast Caucasus with about 1,000 speakers. Test has about 100 pages. Eligible.
Wikipedia Romanized Khowar https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Romanized_Khowar: (1) There is no evidence that there is really a community needing this, particularly as a separate project. (Further, there's no evidence it couldn't be done by script converter.) (2) This is another project by RA Chitrali, whom we had trouble with on the original Khowar Wikipedia project not too long ago. Propose to reject. (On-wiki, I'm just going to use explanation 1 above. Explanation 2 is simply an additional reason to be skeptical.)
Steven
Sent from Outlook http://aka.ms/weboutlook
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
On the other hand,, the Langcom accepted Lingua Franca Nova, which has no native speakers either. Yet, the project is doing very well: almost 1,400 new articles since it was created, less than three months ago.
Of course, Modern Prussian is a semi-constructed language. But then, the same goes for Cornish. Who are we to decide whether a language is viable or not? Personally, I'd mark it eligible. If they can make the test wiki work (I mean: really really work), then I see no counter-indication for a Prussian Wikipedia either.
For the record, I've never understood why there cannot be a Wikipedia in Ancient Greek, since there are millions of people worldwide who can write in it.
Best regards, Jan van Steenbergen
2018-07-16 19:59 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, Prusian is imho not eligible, there are no native speakers. There is little reason to believe that it is in a category similar to Ancient Greek.
For the rest it is fine. Thanks, GerardM
On 16 July 2018 at 19:12, Steven White Koala19890@hotmail.com wrote:
I think this first set of five Wikipedia requests from 2012 is pretty straightforward, even if I am going to leave three of them open for a week to make sure nobody has a problem with my proposed disposition of the requests. However, do please start keeping an eye on these, because the next couple of sets are going to raise some policy questions that I am really going to need LangCom as a whole to address. Thank you.
Wikipedia Mi'kmaq https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Micmac (mic): Aboriginal language of New England and the Atlantic Provinces of Canada. 7200 native speakers. Test has over 200 pages, albeit mostly one-liners with pictures. Eligible.
Valencian Wikipedia https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Valenciano: This is described as the main language of the autonomous community of Valencia in Spain, and has 2.4 million speakers. It has no langcode, and a request for one was rejected in 2006, on the grounds that Valencian is simply a variety of Catalan. (SIL/Ethnologue still describes this as a dialect of Catalan.) Catalan Wikipedia apparently allows content in Valencian. Holding for one week for LangCom comments, but I propose to reject, while encouraging potential contributors to contribute to Catalan Wikipedia.
Wikipedia Prussian 2 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Prussian_2 (prg): Prussian went extinct in the 18th century, but there are serious revival efforts underway, and apparently a first, new native speaker. Test has had some modest activity in recent months. I'm thinking we should mark as eligible, while noting that if and when it actually comes to a point of approval—it has fewer than 20 pages right now—we'd hope to see that the language revival is continuing outside WMF.
Wikipedia Khinalug https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Khinalug (kjj): Endangered language of Northeast Caucasus with about 1,000 speakers. Test has about 100 pages. Eligible.
Wikipedia Romanized Khowar https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Romanized_Khowar: (1) There is no evidence that there is really a community needing this, particularly as a separate project. (Further, there's no evidence it couldn't be done by script converter.) (2) This is another project by RA Chitrali, whom we had trouble with on the original Khowar Wikipedia project not too long ago. Propose to reject. (On-wiki, I'm just going to use explanation 1 above. Explanation 2 is simply an additional reason to be skeptical.)
Steven
Sent from Outlook http://aka.ms/weboutlook
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
Revived Cornish has had a century of publication. I in fact have published well over two million words in Cornish. I’ve never looked into Revived Prussian, but it should be easy to determine whether it’s robust enough for use.
On 16 Jul 2018, at 19:39, Jan van Steenbergen ijzeren.jan@gmail.com wrote:
On the other hand,, the Langcom accepted Lingua Franca Nova, which has no native speakers either. Yet, the project is doing very well: almost 1,400 new articles since it was created, less than three months ago.
Of course, Modern Prussian is a semi-constructed language. But then, the same goes for Cornish. Who are we to decide whether a language is viable or not? Personally, I'd mark it eligible. If they can make the test wiki work (I mean: really really work), then I see no counter-indication for a Prussian Wikipedia either.
For the record, I've never understood why there cannot be a Wikipedia in Ancient Greek, since there are millions of people worldwide who can write in it.
Best regards, Jan van Steenbergen
At 2018-7-17 Tue 01:59, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Prusian is imho not eligible, there are no native speakers. There is little reason to believe that it is in a category similar to Ancient Greek.
For the rest it is fine. Thanks, GerardM
For languages under revitalization efforts, if you look at example from revival of Hebrew, people start using Hebrew for daily conversation since year 1880s, and Tel Aviv established in 1909 as a Hebrew-speaking city, however it's only during Mandate period which start after WWI that people start teaching children with Hebrew as their mother language and thus to let them become a native speaker of the language So even in this idealistic Hebrew revitalization case, it would still take almost half a century before Wikipedia could create a Hebrew version for them if we already have Wikipedia back then and this guideline was used. I don't think it's a good idea to drag out so long.
Not quite on topic, but sorry, I had to:
בתאריך שבת, 1 בספט׳ 2018, 07:52, מאת Phake Nick c933103@gmail.com:
At 2018-7-17 Tue 01:59, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Prusian is imho not eligible, there are no native speakers. There is little reason to believe that it is in a category similar to Ancient Greek.
For the rest it is fine. Thanks, GerardM
For languages under revitalization efforts, if you look at example from revival of Hebrew, people start using Hebrew for daily conversation since year 1880s, and Tel Aviv established in 1909 as a Hebrew-speaking city, however it's only during Mandate period which start after WWI that people start teaching children with Hebrew as their mother language and thus to let them become a native speaker of the language
Nope, if you talk about when did people START it, then it's more like 1882: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar_Ben-Avi
It took a few years for more native speakers to be born. I need to check how many exactly, but I'm pretty sure it did not take forty years.
The first Hebrew kindergarten started in 1913 or so by David Yellin (accounts vary; and note that the whole concept of a kindergarten was only about 100 years old then).
The time of the British mandate (1920s) is the time of recognition of Hebrew as an official language, and the establishment of Hebrew higher education institutions. Thousands of those children had grown up and wanted to learn engineering and humanities somewhere. Publishing of (non-religious) Hebrew books and newspapers had been several decades old by that time.
Will this happen with Prussian? I don't know. I find Michael's attitude to this pretty balanced.
... Or, if we compare this to Hebrew, we could go much further back, to the early 19th century attempts to write modern literature in it. This would possibly be a closer comparison.
בתאריך שבת, 1 בספט׳ 2018, 08:23, מאת Amir E. Aharoni < amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il>:
Not quite on topic, but sorry, I had to:
בתאריך שבת, 1 בספט׳ 2018, 07:52, מאת Phake Nick c933103@gmail.com:
At 2018-7-17 Tue 01:59, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Prusian is imho not eligible, there are no native speakers. There is little reason to believe that it is in a category similar to Ancient Greek.
For the rest it is fine. Thanks, GerardM
For languages under revitalization efforts, if you look at example from revival of Hebrew, people start using Hebrew for daily conversation since year 1880s, and Tel Aviv established in 1909 as a Hebrew-speaking city, however it's only during Mandate period which start after WWI that people start teaching children with Hebrew as their mother language and thus to let them become a native speaker of the language
Nope, if you talk about when did people START it, then it's more like 1882: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar_Ben-Avi
It took a few years for more native speakers to be born. I need to check how many exactly, but I'm pretty sure it did not take forty years.
The first Hebrew kindergarten started in 1913 or so by David Yellin (accounts vary; and note that the whole concept of a kindergarten was only about 100 years old then).
The time of the British mandate (1920s) is the time of recognition of Hebrew as an official language, and the establishment of Hebrew higher education institutions. Thousands of those children had grown up and wanted to learn engineering and humanities somewhere. Publishing of (non-religious) Hebrew books and newspapers had been several decades old by that time.
Will this happen with Prussian? I don't know. I find Michael's attitude to this pretty balanced.
Dear all,
I'm sorry to announce that I have to step down from the Language Committee. The main reason being that I have to cut down my computer time. It's been a good seven-and-a-half years and I thank you all for the good team work.
Wishing you all the best for the future, Oliver
Very, very sad to see you go. Your contributions were fantastic.
I wish you the best, and I hope to meet you again some day!
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
בתאריך יום ד׳, 26 בספט׳ 2018 ב-14:06 מאת Oliver Stegen < oliver_stegen@sil.org>:
Dear all,
I'm sorry to announce that I have to step down from the Language Committee. The main reason being that I have to cut down my computer time. It's been a good seven-and-a-half years and I thank you all for the good team work.
Wishing you all the best for the future, Oliver
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
Sad to hear this, you've done a great job as part of the committee! Your expertise and connections have been very valuable to our work here. And I think it would be uncontroversial to say that you're welcome back later if you want to. :-)
Den ons. 26. sep. 2018 kl. 13:06 skrev Oliver Stegen <oliver_stegen@sil.org
:
Dear all,
I'm sorry to announce that I have to step down from the Language Committee. The main reason being that I have to cut down my computer time. It's been a good seven-and-a-half years and I thank you all for the good team work.
Wishing you all the best for the future, Oliver
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
Hi Oliver,
sad to hear this! I hope we can still count on your expertise if we have something in your field ;) And I second what Jhs says.
Best regards MF-W
Am Do., 27. Sep. 2018 um 11:45 Uhr schrieb Jon Harald Søby <jhsoby@gmail.com
:
Sad to hear this, you've done a great job as part of the committee! Your expertise and connections have been very valuable to our work here. And I think it would be uncontroversial to say that you're welcome back later if you want to. :-)
Den ons. 26. sep. 2018 kl. 13:06 skrev Oliver Stegen < oliver_stegen@sil.org>:
Dear all,
I'm sorry to announce that I have to step down from the Language Committee. The main reason being that I have to cut down my computer time. It's been a good seven-and-a-half years and I thank you all for the good team work.
Wishing you all the best for the future, Oliver
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
-- mvh Jon Harald Søby _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
I’m just very sad to hear it.
M
On 26 Sep 2018, at 12:06, Oliver Stegen oliver_stegen@sil.org wrote:
Dear all,
I'm sorry to announce that I have to step down from the Language Committee. The main reason being that I have to cut down my computer time. It's been a good seven-and-a-half years and I thank you all for the good team work.
Wishing you all the best for the future, Oliver
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
Hoi, While not a surprise it is sad and, we will miss you. Do your thing, be happy and know that we remember you fondly. That there is always a place for you. Thank you Gerard
On Wed, 26 Sep 2018 at 13:06, Oliver Stegen oliver_stegen@sil.org wrote:
Dear all,
I'm sorry to announce that I have to step down from the Language Committee. The main reason being that I have to cut down my computer time. It's been a good seven-and-a-half years and I thank you all for the good team work.
Wishing you all the best for the future, Oliver
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom