Hello,
A few seconds ago, de.wikipedia passed the 250.000 article mark. After
having been standing still at about 249.990 articles for more than an
hour thanks to deleting sysops, {{NUMBEROFARTICLES}} rushed over the
magic 250k at 00:13 CEST with more than 20 articles created in less than
120 seconds. The "official" number 250.000 is [[de:Mönchgut]] by
[[de:Benutzer:Fristu]] - congratulations!
rdb
http://www.world66.com/northamerica/mexico
Honestly, when I saw "[edit this]", I thought it was Yet Another Illegal
Mirror, but they actually seem to have gathered their own contents,
under cc-by-sa-1.0
I see competition to WikiTravel...
Magnus
Hi,
Ja precies, helemaal mee eens Wouter! (Het enigste wat niet klopt is
"zij"; waarom denkt iedereen dat ik 'Servien' een vrouwennaam is haha!)
But anyway... if anyone would like to check out the differences please
see: http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hööftsiet and
http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruker:Servien/Heufdbladsyde, the same site
as the German-Low Saxon one, just in a different dialect and some changed
etc.
Regards,
Servien Ilaino (m.)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wouter Steenbeek"
To: node.ue(a)gmail.com, wikipedia-l(a)wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Request for creation of Dutch-Low Saxon
(nds-nl)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 17:06:36 +0200
>
> > As I noted before, it is a dialect continuum.
> All of the continental West Germanic language variants form a
> dialect continuum, with the possible exception of the Frisian
> tongues.
> > Stellingwarfs and Middel-pommersch are surely not mutually
> > intelligible, but Grunnegers and Oostfreesk very well should be.
> Yes, so are Berlinic and High German. And East-Veluws and Dutch.
> But Grunnegers and Oostfreesk are not or barely mutually
> intelligible when written down, because of the different spellings.
>
> > You are foolishly dividing Platt by nations. This is illogical.
If we
> > had an Oostfreesk Wikipedia, Grunnegers-speakers would surely
> > understand it and vice-versa, even though Grunnegers is in the
> > Netherlands and Oostfreesk is mostly in Germany.
>
> "Foolishly"... Mr. I-owe-all-the-world's-languages'-wisdom.... May
> I point at the difference in spelling once more? And don't you
> think that the bulk of the Dutch Low-Saxon dialects share some
> features most German dialects don't?
> > The problem of dialect continuum is a very difficult one.
> Yes, so it can't be solved by one such disregarding message.
> > HOWEVER, given the community reaction to a request for a
Baseldytsch
> > Wikipedia, I think the same is logical for a request for a "Dutch
Low
> > Saxon" Wikipedia
> Is it? Is Servien requesting a Wikipedia for just one town, or
> region? No, she obviously realises that, though the speaking
> communities hardly link dialects on any higher level than their own
> region (they will never say they speak Low Saxon, but always either
> the dialect of their own village or region, Twents, Sallands,
> Drents etc.), we should group some of them together. This is very
> different from what the proposer of the Baseldytsch Wikipedia did:
> he simply said: "I have no affinity with the other Alemannic
> dialects, so I want to open one for my dialect only".
> > -- your language may be different to whatever degree
> > than what many people on X Wikipedia use, but there is no rule
> > forbidding its use. There is no rule against writing pages and
pages
> > and pages of content on nds.wiki in Stellingwarfs or Achterhooks.
When
> > I suggested doing this, I got a cold response that Dutch Low
Saxon and
> > German Low Saxon aren't mutually intelligible. Before whinging to
us
> > about that, can you at least actually try to use your dialect on
> > nds.wiki to prove to us that it really doesn't work?
> Some users of nds: made clear that they only use one spelling: the
> Sass one. Dutch Low Saxon dialects are /never/ written in German
> spellings, except with some German-initiated projects.
>
> > Mark
> >
> Imo, the combined facts of mutual confusion in both speach and
> spelling makes this idea a valuable one.
>
> Wouter
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Nooit ongewenste berichten ontvangen: gebruik MSN Messenger
> http://messenger.msn.nl/
>
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>From Rohn.
And he *is* a native speaker.
Mark
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch(a)yahoo.com>
Date: 25-Jun-2005 21:41
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Request for creation of Dutch-Low Saxon (nds-nl)
To: Mark Williamson <node.ue(a)gmail.com>
--- Mark Williamson <node.ue(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> (forwarded to Reinhart (Ron) Hahn to get his opinion)
>
> [Some basic background on the issue for Ron: As you know there is
> already a Low Saxon Wikipedia. Somebody just requested a "Dutch Low
> Saxon" Wikipedia, complaining that nds.wiki is in "German Low Saxon".
> I expressed a few concerns, not least among them that in a case of a
> dialect continuum, it will be difficult for us to decide where to draw
> lines between varieties, and which varieties should get their own
> Wikipedias.]
>
> Concerns that nobody has responded to yet:
>
> * As I noted before, it is a dialect continuum. Stellingwarfs and
> Middel-pommersch are surely not easily mutually intelligible, but
> Grunnegers and Oostfreesk very well should be.
>
> * Dividing Platt along national boundaries is illogical. If we had an
> Oostfreesk Wikipedia, Grunnegers-speakers would surely understand it
> and vice-versa, even though Grunnegers is in the Netherlands and
> Oostfreesk is mostly in Germany. There are no definite borders between
> one and the next, and the national border is just as arbitrary as any.
>
> This would also mean that a man from the tiny village of Laar (in
> Germany) would use a different Wikipedia than a man from the tiny
> village of Gramsbergen (in the Netherlands), even though they're about
> 4km (~2.5mi) apart and their speech is identical. Does this make much
> sense?
>
> * A case of a dialect continuum is a very new thing for us. We have no
> experience with it so far, or we have crammed them all into a single
> Wikipedia.
>
> Mark
Hi, Mark!
Thanks for forwarding this. It all makes a lot of sense to me.
I would find it very regrettable if the language were separated along the
political border, though I know quite a few people that would welcome it.
In the case of Low Saxon, what is at the root of the problem is
orthography. In Germany it is based on German principles, in the
Netherlands on Dutch principles. While most people in the Netherlands
have some German, the Dutch-based system is quite incomprehensible to the
majority of people in Germany. However, this is not to say that the
German-based system ought to be used. I personally hate it for several
reasons, and I am not alone. It is not emotional but because the system
is very poorly suited, does not make many necessary phonemic distinctions
and thus teaches learners faulty pronunciation, which it has done already.
However, this is a very contentious issue, because the vast majority of
Low Saxon speakers are older, conservative and narrow-minded, plus
uneducated in anything linguistic, hanging on to myths and false
assumption, such as orthographic standardization being designed to
artificially created a single standard language, when orthographic
standardization has nothing to do with language standardization, only with
facilitating mutual reading comprehension. So we are up against a monster
here.
It doesn't help that language competency is wanting in the current
WikiPlatt team. Those folks are enthusiastic, and I laud that. But they
don't know the language well enough. Much or most of it is "Patentplatt"
(based on Missingsch), i.e. invented on the basis of German. I am not at
all opposed to introducing technical neologisms, but there needs to be
first of all a firm grasp of the basic language, the grammar and the
authentic idiom.
It would be best -- if doable -- to have an international team work on
this and use a type of compromise orthography that is easily accessible to
all.
Thanks for your engagement in all of this.
Regards,
Ron
Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
Seattle, USA
==========
I do not open unexpected or unexplained attachments.
Ich öffne keine unerwarteten oder unerklärten Beilagen.
Ik maak keen Bilagen apen, vun de ik niks afweten do.
Ikj moak kjeene Bieloge op, von dee ikj nuscht weete do.
Ik open geen bijlagen waarover ik niets weet.
Ek maak geen onverwagte of onverklaarbare aanhangsels oop nie.
Jeg åbner ingen uforventede bilag, såfremt der ikke er redegjort for dem.
No abro archivos adjuntos de origen desconocido.
Não abro arquivos anexados de origem desconhecida.
Je n'ouvre jamais les annexes qui ne sont pas annoncées ou décrites.
Я не
открываю
никакие
приложения,
о которых
не знаю
ничто.
--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE
Hi,
I would like to complain about vipuser's actions on Commons. He has
been reverting my edits, for example
http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:DeletionMenu-zh&act…
, giving no reason.
The version he reverts to are Simplified-only.
He has not discussed it with anyone else first, and is interpreting
policy unilaterally. It is my view that he is abusing his rollback
button.
I think it's high time he stop harassing me in this manner and let
Traditional Chinese coexist peacefully on meta, commons, and
foundation-wiki.
Mark
--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE
Dag Walter!
Ja dat klopt (waarover je geschreven hebt). Toch, soms is het heel moeilijk tussen wat talen om te verschil maken. Maar misschien hebben ze gelijk.
Het beste en tot ziens!
pippu d'angelo, canberra
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger: chiamate gratuite in tutto il mondo
Hi,
Thanks for the replies! It is kind of true what Ron/Waerth say, there are
issues with the orthography, on one of my dialect sites I use a common
orthography for Low Saxon (AS; Algemene Schryvwyse), but some people in
the Netherlands/Germany won't understand that, unless you tell them how
it works. Dutch Low Saxon people now don't really go to the Low Saxon
Wikipedia because they don't understand it and prefer to use the Dutch
one instead, which is quite understandable because the Nds site looks
more like German to us than Nds.
I've reconstructed the Low Saxon mainpage in my dialect for you to see
how it looks and see what the problems are with it. (http://nds.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bruker:Servien/Heufdpagina).
(Mark: I've already put some articles in my dialect on the Nds.wikipedia
but most people don't understand that, so that's actually a waste.)
Regards,
Servien Ilaino!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Williamson"
To: wikipedia-l(a)wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Request for creation of Dutch-Low Saxon
(nds-nl)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 22:20:35 -0700
>
> For more on Missingsch, please see
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missingsch or
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missingsch
>
> Mark
>
> On 25/06/05, Mark Williamson wrote:
> > From Rohn.
> >
> > And he *is* a native speaker.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From: R. F. Hahn
> > Date: 25-Jun-2005 21:41
> > Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Request for creation of Dutch-Low
Saxon (nds-nl)
> > To: Mark Williamson
> >
> > --- Mark Williamson wrote:
> >
> > > (forwarded to Reinhart (Ron) Hahn to get his opinion)
> > >
> > > [Some basic background on the issue for Ron: As you know there
is
> > > already a Low Saxon Wikipedia. Somebody just requested a "Dutch
Low
> > > Saxon" Wikipedia, complaining that nds.wiki is in "German Low
Saxon".
> > > I expressed a few concerns, not least among them that in a case
of a
> > > dialect continuum, it will be difficult for us to decide where
to draw
> > > lines between varieties, and which varieties should get their
own
> > > Wikipedias.]
> > >
> > > Concerns that nobody has responded to yet:
> > >
> > > * As I noted before, it is a dialect continuum. Stellingwarfs
and
> > > Middel-pommersch are surely not easily mutually intelligible,
but
> > > Grunnegers and Oostfreesk very well should be.
> > >
> > > * Dividing Platt along national boundaries is illogical. If we
had an
> > > Oostfreesk Wikipedia, Grunnegers-speakers would surely
understand it
> > > and vice-versa, even though Grunnegers is in the Netherlands
and
> > > Oostfreesk is mostly in Germany. There are no definite borders
between
> > > one and the next, and the national border is just as arbitrary
as any.
> > >
> > > This would also mean that a man from the tiny village of Laar
(in
> > > Germany) would use a different Wikipedia than a man from the
tiny
> > > village of Gramsbergen (in the Netherlands), even though
they're about
> > > 4km (~2.5mi) apart and their speech is identical. Does this
make much
> > > sense?
> > >
> > > * A case of a dialect continuum is a very new thing for us. We
have no
> > > experience with it so far, or we have crammed them all into a
single
> > > Wikipedia.
> > >
> > > Mark
> >
> > Hi, Mark!
> >
> > Thanks for forwarding this. It all makes a lot of sense to me.
> >
> > I would find it very regrettable if the language were separated
along the
> > political border, though I know quite a few people that would
welcome it.
> >
> > In the case of Low Saxon, what is at the root of the problem is
> > orthography. In Germany it is based on German principles, in the
> > Netherlands on Dutch principles. While most people in the
Netherlands
> > have some German, the Dutch-based system is quite
incomprehensible to the
> > majority of people in Germany. However, this is not to say that
the
> > German-based system ought to be used. I personally hate it for
several
> > reasons, and I am not alone. It is not emotional but because the
system
> > is very poorly suited, does not make many necessary phonemic
distinctions
> > and thus teaches learners faulty pronunciation, which it has done
already.
> > However, this is a very contentious issue, because the vast
majority of
> > Low Saxon speakers are older, conservative and narrow-minded,
plus
> > uneducated in anything linguistic, hanging on to myths and false
> > assumption, such as orthographic standardization being designed
to
> > artificially created a single standard language, when
orthographic
> > standardization has nothing to do with language standardization,
only with
> > facilitating mutual reading comprehension. So we are up against a
monster
> > here.
> >
> > It doesn't help that language competency is wanting in the
current
> > WikiPlatt team. Those folks are enthusiastic, and I laud that.
But they
> > don't know the language well enough. Much or most of it is
"Patentplatt"
> > (based on Missingsch), i.e. invented on the basis of German. I am
not at
> > all opposed to introducing technical neologisms, but there needs
to be
> > first of all a firm grasp of the basic language, the grammar and
the
> > authentic idiom.
> >
> > It would be best -- if doable -- to have an international team
work on
> > this and use a type of compromise orthography that is easily
accessible to
> > all.
> >
> > Thanks for your engagement in all of this.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Ron
> >
> > Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
> > Seattle, USA
> > ==========
> > I do not open unexpected or unexplained attachments.
> > Ich öffne keine unerwarteten oder unerklärten Beilagen.
> > Ik maak keen Bilagen apen, vun de ik niks afweten do.
> > Ikj moak kjeene Bieloge op, von dee ikj nuscht weete do.
> > Ik open geen bijlagen waarover ik niets weet.
> > Ek maak geen onverwagte of onverklaarbare aanhangsels oop nie.
> > Jeg åbner ingen uforventede bilag, såfremt der ikke er redegjort
for dem.
> > No abro archivos adjuntos de origen desconocido.
> > Não abro arquivos anexados de origem desconhecida.
> > Je n'ouvre jamais les annexes qui ne sont pas annoncées ou
décrites.
> > Я не
> > открываю
> > никакие
> >
приложения,
> > о которых
> > не знаю
> > ничто.
> >
> > --
> > SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
> > QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX
MATERIAM
> > POSSIT MATERIARI
> > ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE
> >
>
>
> --
> SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
> QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
> POSSIT MATERIARI
> ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
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