Hello all,
I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is concerned about being sexually harassed they must report this to AN/I and there are no private mechanisms to report this sort of thing.
Is this for real?
Chris Sherlock
Sent from my iPhone
What is AN/I
On Sun., Aug. 23, 2020, 4:43 p.m. Chris Sherlock, < chris.sherlock79@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello all,
I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is concerned about being sexually harassed they must report this to AN/I and there are no private mechanisms to report this sort of thing.
Is this for real?
Chris Sherlock
Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
What is AN/I
:Administrators' Noticeboard/Incidents on-Wiki. This is an administrator's noticeboard where one can report.
Thanks User:Titodutta
On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 02:21, ktsquare ktsquare@gmail.com wrote:
What is AN/I
On Sun., Aug. 23, 2020, 4:43 p.m. Chris Sherlock, < chris.sherlock79@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello all,
I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is concerned about being sexually harassed they must report this to AN/I and there are no private mechanisms to report this sort of thing.
Is this for real?
Chris Sherlock
Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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On Sun, 23 Aug 2020 at 21:50, ktsquare ktsquare@gmail.com wrote:
they must report this to AN/I
What is AN/I
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incide...
On Sun, 23 Aug 2020 at 21:43, Chris Sherlock chris.sherlock79@gmail.com wrote:
I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is concerned about being sexually harassed they must report this to AN/I and there are no private mechanisms to report this sort of thing.
Is this for real?
Not according to:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Harassment
and particularly:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Harassment#Contact_the_Foundation%E2%80%99s_...
Do other kinds of harassment have a different procedure or are tollerated?
On 23/08/2020 22:43, Chris Sherlock wrote:
Hello all,
I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is concerned about being sexually harassed they must report this to AN/I and there are no private mechanisms to report this sort of thing.
Is this for real?
Chris Sherlock
Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
On Sun, 23 Aug 2020 at 22:43, Chris Sherlock chris.sherlock79@gmail.com wrote:
I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is concerned about being sexually harassed they must report this to AN/I and there are no private mechanisms to report this sort of thing.
Is this for real?
Assuming you've contacted Trust&Safety, "falls outside of the Foundation's remit" is a standard answer to receive as a regular editor.
Bringing the issue to ANI it will most likely be ignored. If your issue is with a long-term / established editor it has a significant chance to boomerang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/wp:BOOMERANG.
Sadly, this is for real and somewhat the reason behind the UCoC proposal. Whether that will change this is another question.
Aron
Chris,
More generally, conduct issues are handled locally. We do not have a central authority to handle issues like this; local communities are, in the vast majority of cases, capable of handling conduct problems of it’s editors. Not to mention that T&S would be incapable of handling every minor conduct problem.
It also is not something that is usually emailed to emergency@; if there’s extensive problems with harassment, and local functions do not work, ca@wikimedia.org will get you in touch with T&S who can look into the issue.
However, you haven’t tried to handle this locally. Creating an ANI section, seeing that people aren’t 100% in agreement with your preferred outcome, and then removing it is not very helpful towards resolving this.
From my somewhat limited looking into the events, there’s been some
problematic shows of incivility on from both parties, with WWGB using the word “cutie” in an offhand edit summary. It isn’t appropriate, it certainly didn’t improve their point, but calling it sexual harassment and hoping for the WMF or others to take immediate and dire action without community input is misleading and unrealistic. On a collaborative project, problems are handled collaboratively with uninvolved editors looking at the issue from a third party perspective, giving their input, and at some point an administrator coming along to enact the consensus. That’s why noticeboards of this type exist, which discuss and evaluate conduct issues to seek a resolution. We do not know how other community members and admins would have participated in the discussion because it was cut short.
I noticed that you said, on Facebook, that you did not feel safe talking to WWGB directly about it, and that you did not feel safe on ANI. I’m very sorry to hear this; though I am not sure what you believe to be unsafe about leaving a talk page message stating your having taken offense at WWGB’s remarks, or asking for input from administrators and the community to resolve the issue, those are the methods of fixing issues. If either action were met with hostility, insult, or further harassment, there would be a very clear and simple case for an administrator to take action, and thus would have been much easier. If WWGB, however, apologized and agreed not to continue with such conduct in the future, it would also have been much easier. We don’t have a sort of secret police to handle issues in private. The community processes exist for a reason, and when permitted to take place, usually work.
Best regards, Vermont
On Sun, Aug 23, 2020 at 17:27 Aron Manning aronmanning5@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, 23 Aug 2020 at 22:43, Chris Sherlock chris.sherlock79@gmail.com wrote:
I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is concerned about being sexually harassed they must report this to AN/I and there are no private mechanisms to report this sort of thing.
Is this for real?
Assuming you've contacted Trust&Safety, "falls outside of the Foundation's remit" is a standard answer to receive as a regular editor.
Bringing the issue to ANI it will most likely be ignored. If your issue is with a long-term / established editor it has a significant chance to boomerang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/wp:BOOMERANG.
Sadly, this is for real and somewhat the reason behind the UCoC proposal. Whether that will change this is another question.
Aron _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Well, I don't know the fact directly but the standard procedure is to discuss it with a local administrator on the relevant talk page or notice board. So, Vermont is correct.
The T&S does not usually take action in cases that can generally be handled by the local community. Thus, responses such as "falls outside the Foundation's remit" isn't bad in such cases.
Regards.
Isaac
On Sun, 23 Aug 2020, 22:51 Chris Gates via Wikimedia-l, < wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
Chris,
More generally, conduct issues are handled locally. We do not have a central authority to handle issues like this; local communities are, in the vast majority of cases, capable of handling conduct problems of it’s editors. Not to mention that T&S would be incapable of handling every minor conduct problem.
It also is not something that is usually emailed to emergency@; if there’s extensive problems with harassment, and local functions do not work, ca@wikimedia.org will get you in touch with T&S who can look into the issue.
However, you haven’t tried to handle this locally. Creating an ANI section, seeing that people aren’t 100% in agreement with your preferred outcome, and then removing it is not very helpful towards resolving this.
From my somewhat limited looking into the events, there’s been some problematic shows of incivility on from both parties, with WWGB using the word “cutie” in an offhand edit summary. It isn’t appropriate, it certainly didn’t improve their point, but calling it sexual harassment and hoping for the WMF or others to take immediate and dire action without community input is misleading and unrealistic. On a collaborative project, problems are handled collaboratively with uninvolved editors looking at the issue from a third party perspective, giving their input, and at some point an administrator coming along to enact the consensus. That’s why noticeboards of this type exist, which discuss and evaluate conduct issues to seek a resolution. We do not know how other community members and admins would have participated in the discussion because it was cut short.
I noticed that you said, on Facebook, that you did not feel safe talking to WWGB directly about it, and that you did not feel safe on ANI. I’m very sorry to hear this; though I am not sure what you believe to be unsafe about leaving a talk page message stating your having taken offense at WWGB’s remarks, or asking for input from administrators and the community to resolve the issue, those are the methods of fixing issues. If either action were met with hostility, insult, or further harassment, there would be a very clear and simple case for an administrator to take action, and thus would have been much easier. If WWGB, however, apologized and agreed not to continue with such conduct in the future, it would also have been much easier. We don’t have a sort of secret police to handle issues in private. The community processes exist for a reason, and when permitted to take place, usually work.
Best regards, Vermont
On Sun, Aug 23, 2020 at 17:27 Aron Manning aronmanning5@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, 23 Aug 2020 at 22:43, Chris Sherlock <chris.sherlock79@gmail.com
wrote:
I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is concerned about being sexually harassed they must report this to AN/I and there are no
private
mechanisms to report this sort of thing.
Is this for real?
Assuming you've contacted Trust&Safety, "falls outside of the
Foundation's
remit" is a standard answer to receive as a regular editor.
Bringing the issue to ANI it will most likely be ignored. If your issue
is
with a long-term / established editor it has a significant chance to boomerang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/wp:BOOMERANG.
Sadly, this is for real and somewhat the reason behind the UCoC proposal. Whether that will change this is another question.
Aron _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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It depends on the nature of the incident. If the harassment took place on the wiki, yes, it should be reported via an on-wiki process since it does not involve private information. On the English Wikipedia, that would generally be AN/I.
If the harassment happened off-wiki (e.g., via harassing emails), on the English Wikipedia it may be reported to the Arbitration Committee ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee). Other projects may have different processes for handling incidents which involve off-wiki harassment.
Todd
On Sun, Aug 23, 2020 at 4:11 PM Isaac Olatunde reachout2isaac@gmail.com wrote:
Well, I don't know the fact directly but the standard procedure is to discuss it with a local administrator on the relevant talk page or notice board. So, Vermont is correct.
The T&S does not usually take action in cases that can generally be handled by the local community. Thus, responses such as "falls outside the Foundation's remit" isn't bad in such cases.
Regards.
Isaac
On Sun, 23 Aug 2020, 22:51 Chris Gates via Wikimedia-l, < wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
Chris,
More generally, conduct issues are handled locally. We do not have a central authority to handle issues like this; local communities are, in
the
vast majority of cases, capable of handling conduct problems of it’s editors. Not to mention that T&S would be incapable of handling every
minor
conduct problem.
It also is not something that is usually emailed to emergency@; if
there’s
extensive problems with harassment, and local functions do not work, ca@wikimedia.org will get you in touch with T&S who can look into the issue.
However, you haven’t tried to handle this locally. Creating an ANI
section,
seeing that people aren’t 100% in agreement with your preferred outcome, and then removing it is not very helpful towards resolving this.
From my somewhat limited looking into the events, there’s been some problematic shows of incivility on from both parties, with WWGB using the word “cutie” in an offhand edit summary. It isn’t appropriate, it
certainly
didn’t improve their point, but calling it sexual harassment and hoping
for
the WMF or others to take immediate and dire action without community
input
is misleading and unrealistic. On a collaborative project, problems are handled collaboratively with uninvolved editors looking at the issue
from a
third party perspective, giving their input, and at some point an administrator coming along to enact the consensus. That’s why
noticeboards
of this type exist, which discuss and evaluate conduct issues to seek a resolution. We do not know how other community members and admins would have participated in the discussion because it was cut short.
I noticed that you said, on Facebook, that you did not feel safe talking
to
WWGB directly about it, and that you did not feel safe on ANI. I’m very sorry to hear this; though I am not sure what you believe to be unsafe about leaving a talk page message stating your having taken offense at WWGB’s remarks, or asking for input from administrators and the community to resolve the issue, those are the methods of fixing issues. If either action were met with hostility, insult, or further harassment, there
would
be a very clear and simple case for an administrator to take action, and thus would have been much easier. If WWGB, however, apologized and agreed not to continue with such conduct in the future, it would also have been much easier. We don’t have a sort of secret police to handle issues in private. The community processes exist for a reason, and when permitted
to
take place, usually work.
Best regards, Vermont
On Sun, Aug 23, 2020 at 17:27 Aron Manning aronmanning5@gmail.com
wrote:
On Sun, 23 Aug 2020 at 22:43, Chris Sherlock <
chris.sherlock79@gmail.com
wrote:
I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is concerned about
being
sexually harassed they must report this to AN/I and there are no
private
mechanisms to report this sort of thing.
Is this for real?
Assuming you've contacted Trust&Safety, "falls outside of the
Foundation's
remit" is a standard answer to receive as a regular editor.
Bringing the issue to ANI it will most likely be ignored. If your issue
is
with a long-term / established editor it has a significant chance to boomerang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/wp:BOOMERANG.
Sadly, this is for real and somewhat the reason behind the UCoC
proposal.
Whether that will change this is another question.
Aron _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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To be clear, this is what I was advised:
“ Harassment concerns can be reviewed under the appropriate community process. I would therefore advise you to report the edit summary to the appropriate channels on the wiki it occured. If this happened on English Wikipedia, this would be the Administrator's board for incidents. I hope the above is helpful.”
Chris
Sent from my iPhone
On 24 Aug 2020, at 6:43 am, Chris Sherlock chris.sherlock79@gmail.com wrote:
Hello all,
I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is concerned about being sexually harassed they must report this to AN/I and there are no private mechanisms to report this sort of thing.
Is this for real?
Chris Sherlock
Sent from my iPhone
Hello Chris,
This isn't a terribly bad advise, AFAICS.
Harassments are treated on a case-by-case basis.
So, if this is something you aren't comfortable discussing publicly, you could email the Functionary team or ArbCom or similar body in that community.
If it's something that should be removed from public view, you could contact the oversight team.
I can't see the contents of the harassment, so I can only speak based on general principle.
Regards
Isaac
On Sun, 23 Aug 2020, 23:07 Chris Sherlock, chris.sherlock79@gmail.com wrote:
To be clear, this is what I was advised:
“ Harassment concerns can be reviewed under the appropriate community process. I would therefore advise you to report the edit summary to the appropriate channels on the wiki it occured. If this happened on English Wikipedia, this would be the Administrator's board for incidents. I hope the above is helpful.”
Chris
Sent from my iPhone
On 24 Aug 2020, at 6:43 am, Chris Sherlock chris.sherlock79@gmail.com
wrote:
Hello all,
I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is concerned about being
sexually harassed they must report this to AN/I and there are no private mechanisms to report this sort of thing.
Is this for real?
Chris Sherlock
Sent from my iPhone
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
If someone feels harassed then a public noticeboard is the last place to send them for help, that is an absolute failure of the community to understand that the act of reporting is also doubling down on the harm. Doing so publicly is indicating to the person committing the harassment that they have succeeded in causing harm.
This folks is the very reason why we fail to retain editors and breach the imbalance of editors and continue have trouble with bias. Everyone speaks english but the cultural nuances of the language vary greatly with words having multiple meanings and being used specifically to cause offense.
The word cutie has its meanings;
- of being nice looking when talking about kids and animals
but once its used referring to an adult as part of a discussion its changes to that of them being;
- of being an arsehole - of being picky - and of having sexual connotations ranging from you are fuckable, to your sexual orientation.
When these complaints get to something like AN/I those cultural and linguistic nuances get dismissed and the person using them has gained a lot of power, self satisfaction, and endorsement of their harassment as being ok, with a bonus that other users are now also enabled to harass the complaining editor knowing full well that AN/I will do nothing.
The bottom line is if a person feels harassed they have been harassed, whether we understand the depth of why they feel harassed is not relevant but that should not be a barrier to prevent further harassment.
On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 06:21, Isaac Olatunde reachout2isaac@gmail.com wrote:
Hello Chris,
This isn't a terribly bad advise, AFAICS.
Harassments are treated on a case-by-case basis.
So, if this is something you aren't comfortable discussing publicly, you could email the Functionary team or ArbCom or similar body in that community.
If it's something that should be removed from public view, you could contact the oversight team.
I can't see the contents of the harassment, so I can only speak based on general principle.
Regards
Isaac
On Sun, 23 Aug 2020, 23:07 Chris Sherlock, chris.sherlock79@gmail.com wrote:
To be clear, this is what I was advised:
“ Harassment concerns can be reviewed under the appropriate community process. I would therefore advise you to report the edit summary to the appropriate channels on the wiki it occured. If this happened on English Wikipedia, this would be the Administrator's board for incidents. I hope the above is helpful.”
Chris
Sent from my iPhone
On 24 Aug 2020, at 6:43 am, Chris Sherlock <chris.sherlock79@gmail.com
wrote:
Hello all,
I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is concerned about being
sexually harassed they must report this to AN/I and there are no private mechanisms to report this sort of thing.
Is this for real?
Chris Sherlock
Sent from my iPhone
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
If you ve been sexually harassed in wikipedia this is not a matter to be solved on a mailing list or by Safety team. Go to you local authorities and report it. This is a very serious matter to just become an essay for someone or belive that it can be solved by administrators or safety team. Safety team in my harassment case told me to "politely" ask my harrasers to stop harassing me. Please don t relay on them for such a serious matter! Please be safe and I m sure you can seek help by trained and serious people by your local authorities. I wish someone could told me that in my case then and not point me to safety team. They will not help you.
Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής
Στις Δευ, 24 Αυγ 2020, 3:41 π.μ. ο χρήστης Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com έγραψε:
If someone feels harassed then a public noticeboard is the last place to send them for help, that is an absolute failure of the community to understand that the act of reporting is also doubling down on the harm. Doing so publicly is indicating to the person committing the harassment that they have succeeded in causing harm.
This folks is the very reason why we fail to retain editors and breach the imbalance of editors and continue have trouble with bias. Everyone speaks english but the cultural nuances of the language vary greatly with words having multiple meanings and being used specifically to cause offense.
The word cutie has its meanings;
- of being nice looking when talking about kids and animals
but once its used referring to an adult as part of a discussion its changes to that of them being;
- of being an arsehole
- of being picky
- and of having sexual connotations ranging from you are fuckable, to
your sexual orientation.
When these complaints get to something like AN/I those cultural and linguistic nuances get dismissed and the person using them has gained a lot of power, self satisfaction, and endorsement of their harassment as being ok, with a bonus that other users are now also enabled to harass the complaining editor knowing full well that AN/I will do nothing.
The bottom line is if a person feels harassed they have been harassed, whether we understand the depth of why they feel harassed is not relevant but that should not be a barrier to prevent further harassment.
On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 06:21, Isaac Olatunde reachout2isaac@gmail.com wrote:
Hello Chris,
This isn't a terribly bad advise, AFAICS.
Harassments are treated on a case-by-case basis.
So, if this is something you aren't comfortable discussing publicly, you could email the Functionary team or ArbCom or similar body in that community.
If it's something that should be removed from public view, you could contact the oversight team.
I can't see the contents of the harassment, so I can only speak based on general principle.
Regards
Isaac
On Sun, 23 Aug 2020, 23:07 Chris Sherlock, chris.sherlock79@gmail.com wrote:
To be clear, this is what I was advised:
“ Harassment concerns can be reviewed under the appropriate community process. I would therefore advise you to report the edit summary to the appropriate channels on the wiki it occured. If this happened on
English
Wikipedia, this would be the Administrator's board for incidents. I hope the above is helpful.”
Chris
Sent from my iPhone
On 24 Aug 2020, at 6:43 am, Chris Sherlock <
chris.sherlock79@gmail.com
wrote:
Hello all,
I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is concerned about
being
sexually harassed they must report this to AN/I and there are no
private
mechanisms to report this sort of thing.
Is this for real?
Chris Sherlock
Sent from my iPhone
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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-- GN.
*Power of Diverse Collaboration* *Sharing knowledge brings people together* Wikimania Bangkok 2021 August hosted by ESEAP
Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page My print shop: https://www.redbubble.com/people/Gnangarra/shop?asc=u _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
And there the problem lies, going to local authorities (police) isn’t going to be useful. Some authorities require the alleged crime to be committed in their jurisdiction, which can be limited, anonymous nature of the person who committed the alleged crime makes it difficult to identify the individual(s), with it servers hosted outside the jurisdiction make it harder to investigate. Also I have seen in the past, WP:LEGAL used against those who have reported threats of physical violence or harassment (physical stalking) to law enforcement.
I do think there needs to be a off-wiki complaint process for serious allegations, since on-wiki processes can be inappropriate and acts as a chilling effect (since it is very open and public) on the victim(s). The same situation can occur for alleged perpetrator(s), where the allegation(s) are false or vexatious and malicious grievances.
Maybe the Universal Code of Conduct might address this issue, it might not as well.
-- Robert Myers robert.myers@wikimedia.org.au http://www.wikimedia.org.au
On 24 Aug 2020, at 1:37 pm, Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής anonymuswikipedian@gmail.com wrote:
If you ve been sexually harassed in wikipedia this is not a matter to be solved on a mailing list or by Safety team. Go to you local authorities and report it. This is a very serious matter to just become an essay for someone or belive that it can be solved by administrators or safety team. Safety team in my harassment case told me to "politely" ask my harrasers to stop harassing me. Please don t relay on them for such a serious matter! Please be safe and I m sure you can seek help by trained and serious people by your local authorities. I wish someone could told me that in my case then and not point me to safety team. They will not help you.
Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής
Στις Δευ, 24 Αυγ 2020, 3:41 π.μ. ο χρήστης Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com έγραψε:
If someone feels harassed then a public noticeboard is the last place to send them for help, that is an absolute failure of the community to understand that the act of reporting is also doubling down on the harm. Doing so publicly is indicating to the person committing the harassment that they have succeeded in causing harm.
This folks is the very reason why we fail to retain editors and breach the imbalance of editors and continue have trouble with bias. Everyone speaks english but the cultural nuances of the language vary greatly with words having multiple meanings and being used specifically to cause offense.
The word cutie has its meanings;
- of being nice looking when talking about kids and animals
but once its used referring to an adult as part of a discussion its changes to that of them being;
- of being an arsehole
- of being picky
- and of having sexual connotations ranging from you are fuckable, to
your sexual orientation.
When these complaints get to something like AN/I those cultural and linguistic nuances get dismissed and the person using them has gained a lot of power, self satisfaction, and endorsement of their harassment as being ok, with a bonus that other users are now also enabled to harass the complaining editor knowing full well that AN/I will do nothing.
The bottom line is if a person feels harassed they have been harassed, whether we understand the depth of why they feel harassed is not relevant but that should not be a barrier to prevent further harassment.
On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 06:21, Isaac Olatunde reachout2isaac@gmail.com wrote:
Hello Chris,
This isn't a terribly bad advise, AFAICS.
Harassments are treated on a case-by-case basis.
So, if this is something you aren't comfortable discussing publicly, you could email the Functionary team or ArbCom or similar body in that community.
If it's something that should be removed from public view, you could contact the oversight team.
I can't see the contents of the harassment, so I can only speak based on general principle.
Regards
Isaac
On Sun, 23 Aug 2020, 23:07 Chris Sherlock, chris.sherlock79@gmail.com wrote:
To be clear, this is what I was advised:
“ Harassment concerns can be reviewed under the appropriate community process. I would therefore advise you to report the edit summary to the appropriate channels on the wiki it occured. If this happened on
English
Wikipedia, this would be the Administrator's board for incidents. I hope the above is helpful.”
Chris
Sent from my iPhone
On 24 Aug 2020, at 6:43 am, Chris Sherlock <
chris.sherlock79@gmail.com
wrote:
Hello all,
I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is concerned about
being
sexually harassed they must report this to AN/I and there are no
private
mechanisms to report this sort of thing.
Is this for real?
Chris Sherlock
Sent from my iPhone
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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-- GN.
*Power of Diverse Collaboration* *Sharing knowledge brings people together* Wikimania Bangkok 2021 August hosted by ESEAP
Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page My print shop: https://www.redbubble.com/people/Gnangarra/shop?asc=u _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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The code of conduct is not a law. People who are harassers are criminals and not above the law. Sexual harassment is a serious offense. Any kind of harrasment is an offense. Wikipedia s administrators are not the law and not above the law. Wikipedia is not above the law. People who seek help should be appointed to the right specialized authorities as the police and not discouraged to do so.
Safety team from my experience, will not help any wikipedian/victim who with report a harrasment case. They are just another department of wikimedia foundation.
Any people is important and count. Please take what ever actions you think is necessary.
I believe you.
Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής
Στις Δευ, 24 Αυγ 2020, 7:39 π.μ. ο χρήστης Robert Myers < robert.myers@wikimedia.org.au> έγραψε:
And there the problem lies, going to local authorities (police) isn’t going to be useful. Some authorities require the alleged crime to be committed in their jurisdiction, which can be limited, anonymous nature of the person who committed the alleged crime makes it difficult to identify the individual(s), with it servers hosted outside the jurisdiction make it harder to investigate. Also I have seen in the past, WP:LEGAL used against those who have reported threats of physical violence or harassment (physical stalking) to law enforcement.
I do think there needs to be a off-wiki complaint process for serious allegations, since on-wiki processes can be inappropriate and acts as a chilling effect (since it is very open and public) on the victim(s). The same situation can occur for alleged perpetrator(s), where the allegation(s) are false or vexatious and malicious grievances.
Maybe the Universal Code of Conduct might address this issue, it might not as well.
-- Robert Myers robert.myers@wikimedia.org.au http://www.wikimedia.org.au
On 24 Aug 2020, at 1:37 pm, Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής <
anonymuswikipedian@gmail.com> wrote:
If you ve been sexually harassed in wikipedia this is not a matter to be solved on a mailing list or by Safety team. Go to you local authorities
and
report it. This is a very serious matter to just become an essay for someone or belive that it can be solved by administrators or safety team. Safety team in my harassment case told me to "politely" ask my harrasers
to
stop harassing me. Please don t relay on them for such a serious matter! Please be safe and I m sure you can seek help by trained and serious
people
by your local authorities. I wish someone could told me that in my case then and not point me to safety team. They will not help you.
Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής
Στις Δευ, 24 Αυγ 2020, 3:41 π.μ. ο χρήστης Gnangarra <
gnangarra@gmail.com>
έγραψε:
If someone feels harassed then a public noticeboard is the last place to send them for help, that is an absolute failure of the community to understand that the act of reporting is also doubling down on the harm. Doing so publicly is indicating to the person committing the harassment that they have succeeded in causing harm.
This folks is the very reason why we fail to retain editors and breach
the
imbalance of editors and continue have trouble with bias. Everyone
speaks
english but the cultural nuances of the language vary greatly with words having multiple meanings and being used specifically to cause offense.
The word cutie has its meanings;
- of being nice looking when talking about kids and animals
but once its used referring to an adult as part of a discussion its
changes
to that of them being;
- of being an arsehole
- of being picky
- and of having sexual connotations ranging from you are fuckable, to
your sexual orientation.
When these complaints get to something like AN/I those cultural and linguistic nuances get dismissed and the person using them has gained a
lot
of power, self satisfaction, and endorsement of their harassment as
being
ok, with a bonus that other users are now also enabled to harass the complaining editor knowing full well that AN/I will do nothing.
The bottom line is if a person feels harassed they have been harassed, whether we understand the depth of why they feel harassed is not
relevant
but that should not be a barrier to prevent further harassment.
On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 06:21, Isaac Olatunde <reachout2isaac@gmail.com
wrote:
Hello Chris,
This isn't a terribly bad advise, AFAICS.
Harassments are treated on a case-by-case basis.
So, if this is something you aren't comfortable discussing publicly,
you
could email the Functionary team or ArbCom or similar body in that community.
If it's something that should be removed from public view, you could contact the oversight team.
I can't see the contents of the harassment, so I can only speak based
on
general principle.
Regards
Isaac
On Sun, 23 Aug 2020, 23:07 Chris Sherlock, <chris.sherlock79@gmail.com
wrote:
To be clear, this is what I was advised:
“ Harassment concerns can be reviewed under the appropriate community process. I would therefore advise you to report the edit summary to
the
appropriate channels on the wiki it occured. If this happened on
English
Wikipedia, this would be the Administrator's board for incidents. I hope the above is helpful.”
Chris
Sent from my iPhone
On 24 Aug 2020, at 6:43 am, Chris Sherlock <
chris.sherlock79@gmail.com
wrote:
Hello all,
I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is concerned about
being
sexually harassed they must report this to AN/I and there are no
private
mechanisms to report this sort of thing.
Is this for real?
Chris Sherlock
Sent from my iPhone
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- GN.
*Power of Diverse Collaboration* *Sharing knowledge brings people together* Wikimania Bangkok 2021 August hosted by ESEAP
Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page My print shop: https://www.redbubble.com/people/Gnangarra/shop?asc=u _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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The code of conduct is not a law. People who are harassers are criminals and not above the law. Sexual harassment is a serious offense. Any kind of harrasment is an offense. Wikipedia s administrators are not the law and not above the law.
Wikipedia is not above the law.
The international aspects and the fact that WMF protects editors privacy makes options outside the movement very limited to only the extreme end of the scale. Beside the legal aspect its a cop out for the Community & WMF to dismiss any harassment as something they cant do anything about, this response is why AN/I is also a waste of time and why so much harassment never gets dealt with, ultimately why the movement has difficulty in attracting under represented groups
On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 13:14, Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής < anonymuswikipedian@gmail.com> wrote:
The code of conduct is not a law. People who are harassers are criminals and not above the law. Sexual harassment is a serious offense. Any kind of harrasment is an offense. Wikipedia s administrators are not the law and not above the law. Wikipedia is not above the law. People who seek help should be appointed to the right specialized authorities as the police and not discouraged to do so.
Safety team from my experience, will not help any wikipedian/victim who with report a harrasment case. They are just another department of wikimedia foundation.
Any people is important and count. Please take what ever actions you think is necessary.
I believe you.
Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής
Στις Δευ, 24 Αυγ 2020, 7:39 π.μ. ο χρήστης Robert Myers < robert.myers@wikimedia.org.au> έγραψε:
And there the problem lies, going to local authorities (police) isn’t going to be useful. Some authorities require the alleged crime to be committed in their jurisdiction, which can be limited, anonymous nature
of
the person who committed the alleged crime makes it difficult to identify the individual(s), with it servers hosted outside the jurisdiction make
it
harder to investigate. Also I have seen in the past, WP:LEGAL used
against
those who have reported threats of physical violence or harassment (physical stalking) to law enforcement.
I do think there needs to be a off-wiki complaint process for serious allegations, since on-wiki processes can be inappropriate and acts as a chilling effect (since it is very open and public) on the victim(s). The same situation can occur for alleged perpetrator(s), where the allegation(s) are false or vexatious and malicious grievances.
Maybe the Universal Code of Conduct might address this issue, it might
not
as well.
-- Robert Myers robert.myers@wikimedia.org.au http://www.wikimedia.org.au
On 24 Aug 2020, at 1:37 pm, Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής <
anonymuswikipedian@gmail.com> wrote:
If you ve been sexually harassed in wikipedia this is not a matter to
be
solved on a mailing list or by Safety team. Go to you local authorities
and
report it. This is a very serious matter to just become an essay for someone or belive that it can be solved by administrators or safety
team.
Safety team in my harassment case told me to "politely" ask my
harrasers
to
stop harassing me. Please don t relay on them for such a serious
matter!
Please be safe and I m sure you can seek help by trained and serious
people
by your local authorities. I wish someone could told me that in my case then and not point me to safety team. They will not help you.
Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής
Στις Δευ, 24 Αυγ 2020, 3:41 π.μ. ο χρήστης Gnangarra <
gnangarra@gmail.com>
έγραψε:
If someone feels harassed then a public noticeboard is the last place
to
send them for help, that is an absolute failure of the community to understand that the act of reporting is also doubling down on the
harm.
Doing so publicly is indicating to the person committing the
harassment
that they have succeeded in causing harm.
This folks is the very reason why we fail to retain editors and breach
the
imbalance of editors and continue have trouble with bias. Everyone
speaks
english but the cultural nuances of the language vary greatly with
words
having multiple meanings and being used specifically to cause offense.
The word cutie has its meanings;
- of being nice looking when talking about kids and animals
but once its used referring to an adult as part of a discussion its
changes
to that of them being;
- of being an arsehole
- of being picky
- and of having sexual connotations ranging from you are fuckable,
to
your sexual orientation.
When these complaints get to something like AN/I those cultural and linguistic nuances get dismissed and the person using them has gained
a
lot
of power, self satisfaction, and endorsement of their harassment as
being
ok, with a bonus that other users are now also enabled to harass the complaining editor knowing full well that AN/I will do nothing.
The bottom line is if a person feels harassed they have been harassed, whether we understand the depth of why they feel harassed is not
relevant
but that should not be a barrier to prevent further harassment.
On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 06:21, Isaac Olatunde <
reachout2isaac@gmail.com
wrote:
Hello Chris,
This isn't a terribly bad advise, AFAICS.
Harassments are treated on a case-by-case basis.
So, if this is something you aren't comfortable discussing publicly,
you
could email the Functionary team or ArbCom or similar body in that community.
If it's something that should be removed from public view, you could contact the oversight team.
I can't see the contents of the harassment, so I can only speak based
on
general principle.
Regards
Isaac
On Sun, 23 Aug 2020, 23:07 Chris Sherlock, <
chris.sherlock79@gmail.com
wrote:
To be clear, this is what I was advised:
“ Harassment concerns can be reviewed under the appropriate
community
process. I would therefore advise you to report the edit summary to
the
appropriate channels on the wiki it occured. If this happened on
English
Wikipedia, this would be the Administrator's board for incidents. I hope the above is helpful.”
Chris
Sent from my iPhone
> On 24 Aug 2020, at 6:43 am, Chris Sherlock <
chris.sherlock79@gmail.com
wrote: > > Hello all, > > I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is concerned about
being
sexually harassed they must report this to AN/I and there are no
private
mechanisms to report this sort of thing. > > Is this for real? > > Chris Sherlock > > Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
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-- GN.
*Power of Diverse Collaboration* *Sharing knowledge brings people together* Wikimania Bangkok 2021 August hosted by ESEAP
Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page My print shop: https://www.redbubble.com/people/Gnangarra/shop?asc=u _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
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I fail to understand how requiring public report of publicly-occurring harassment is a problem.
If people are being harassed constantly via off-wiki communication, emailing a local admin team or T&S is definitely the best thing to do if they don’t want to make it public in an on-wiki report.
However, if it’s on-wiki, I don’t see any viable reason as to why it should not be reported on-wiki as well. By no means is it “doubling down” on harassment; that doesn’t even make much sense considering that it isn’t the collective community making the harassment, it’s an individual. It also doesn’t matter at all what the harasser feels like either; if they’re blocked after a civilly-written and clear-cut report on ANI it doesn’t matter what they think. It’s not acceptable to have a secret police team to handle every content issue; community input exists for a reason, especially on collaborative projects like this.
Further, when did anyone say the community is not willing to handle harassment issues? It truly bothers me to see people write nonsense like this.
I will restate:
Local communities appoint administrators to enforce consensus. There is consensus that harassment should be responded to with warnings and, if repeated or severe, blocks.
These administrators usually have a mailing list and an on-wiki noticeboard. These noticeboards are open for anyone to create sections on, and unless a request was clearly made in bad faith or intentionally misled readers, there is practically no chance of successful retaliatory action on the part of the individual who created the harassment.
In this case, a section was made on ANI, multiple editors commented, and for some reason the section was removed mid-discussion. It is to be expected that someone with an independent viewpoint would seek less radical action than someone directly a party of the dispute. In this case, there was incivility and arguable harassment coming from both parties, though clearly “cutie” is not conducive to the desired contributory environment.
Simple conduct cases are not the sort of issue for T&S. Let them (and often stewards) handle the threats to life, the vandals trying to find where editors live, the IPs making terrorist threats, the new accounts uploading child pornography, the vandals spreading the private details of editors, etc. Basic conduct issues can be handled by local administrators.
And for the “chilling effect” of reporting issues like this publicly, if someone is incapable of seeing other people interpret events another way, disagreeing with them, or not wanting as drastic and immediate action, they may not be suited for a collaborative project.
There are easy ways to handle people who are clearly harassing you on-wiki: 1) Ask them to stop. If they refuse, 2) Create a section on ANI giving a short, simple, and unbiased explanation of the issue with diffs. 3) Wait for editors and admins to comment. If the community believes it’s problematic enough to warrant action, action will be taken. If no and the harassment continues continues, 4) Most projects have other methods of handling issues like this. Enwiki has ArbCom for this, simplewiki has community sanction discussions, other projects have other methods.
At no point would removing the ANI report mid-discussion be helpful. And doing so then claiming that it’s the community’s fault is clearly incorrect.
Regards, Vermont
On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 01:46 Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
The code of conduct is not a law. People who are harassers are criminals and not above the law. Sexual harassment is a serious offense. Any kind of harrasment is an offense. Wikipedia s administrators are not the law and not above the law.
Wikipedia is not above the law.
The international aspects and the fact that WMF protects editors privacy makes options outside the movement very limited to only the extreme end of the scale. Beside the legal aspect its a cop out for the Community & WMF to dismiss any harassment as something they cant do anything about, this response is why AN/I is also a waste of time and why so much harassment never gets dealt with, ultimately why the movement has difficulty in attracting under represented groups
On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 13:14, Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής < anonymuswikipedian@gmail.com> wrote:
The code of conduct is not a law. People who are harassers are criminals and not above the law. Sexual harassment is a serious offense. Any kind of harrasment is an offense. Wikipedia s administrators are not the law and not above the
law.
Wikipedia is not above the law. People who seek help should be appointed to the right specialized authorities as the police and not discouraged to do so.
Safety team from my experience, will not help any wikipedian/victim who with report a harrasment case. They are just another department of wikimedia foundation.
Any people is important and count. Please take what ever actions you think is necessary.
I believe you.
Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής
Στις Δευ, 24 Αυγ 2020, 7:39 π.μ. ο χρήστης Robert Myers < robert.myers@wikimedia.org.au> έγραψε:
And there the problem lies, going to local authorities (police) isn’t going to be useful. Some authorities require the alleged crime to be committed in their jurisdiction, which can be limited, anonymous nature
of
the person who committed the alleged crime makes it difficult to
identify
the individual(s), with it servers hosted outside the jurisdiction make
it
harder to investigate. Also I have seen in the past, WP:LEGAL used
against
those who have reported threats of physical violence or harassment (physical stalking) to law enforcement.
I do think there needs to be a off-wiki complaint process for serious allegations, since on-wiki processes can be inappropriate and acts as a chilling effect (since it is very open and public) on the victim(s).
The
same situation can occur for alleged perpetrator(s), where the allegation(s) are false or vexatious and malicious grievances.
Maybe the Universal Code of Conduct might address this issue, it might
not
as well.
-- Robert Myers robert.myers@wikimedia.org.au http://www.wikimedia.org.au
On 24 Aug 2020, at 1:37 pm, Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής <
anonymuswikipedian@gmail.com> wrote:
If you ve been sexually harassed in wikipedia this is not a matter
to
be
solved on a mailing list or by Safety team. Go to you local
authorities
and
report it. This is a very serious matter to just become an essay for someone or belive that it can be solved by administrators or safety
team.
Safety team in my harassment case told me to "politely" ask my
harrasers
to
stop harassing me. Please don t relay on them for such a serious
matter!
Please be safe and I m sure you can seek help by trained and serious
people
by your local authorities. I wish someone could told me that in my case then and not point me to safety team. They will not help you.
Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής
Στις Δευ, 24 Αυγ 2020, 3:41 π.μ. ο χρήστης Gnangarra <
gnangarra@gmail.com>
έγραψε:
If someone feels harassed then a public noticeboard is the last
place
to
send them for help, that is an absolute failure of the community to understand that the act of reporting is also doubling down on the
harm.
Doing so publicly is indicating to the person committing the
harassment
that they have succeeded in causing harm.
This folks is the very reason why we fail to retain editors and
breach
the
imbalance of editors and continue have trouble with bias. Everyone
speaks
english but the cultural nuances of the language vary greatly with
words
having multiple meanings and being used specifically to cause
offense.
The word cutie has its meanings;
- of being nice looking when talking about kids and animals
but once its used referring to an adult as part of a discussion its
changes
to that of them being;
- of being an arsehole
- of being picky
- and of having sexual connotations ranging from you are fuckable,
to
your sexual orientation.
When these complaints get to something like AN/I those cultural and linguistic nuances get dismissed and the person using them has
gained
a
lot
of power, self satisfaction, and endorsement of their harassment as
being
ok, with a bonus that other users are now also enabled to harass the complaining editor knowing full well that AN/I will do nothing.
The bottom line is if a person feels harassed they have been
harassed,
whether we understand the depth of why they feel harassed is not
relevant
but that should not be a barrier to prevent further harassment.
On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 06:21, Isaac Olatunde <
reachout2isaac@gmail.com
wrote:
Hello Chris,
This isn't a terribly bad advise, AFAICS.
Harassments are treated on a case-by-case basis.
So, if this is something you aren't comfortable discussing
publicly,
you
could email the Functionary team or ArbCom or similar body in that community.
If it's something that should be removed from public view, you
could
contact the oversight team.
I can't see the contents of the harassment, so I can only speak
based
on
general principle.
Regards
Isaac
On Sun, 23 Aug 2020, 23:07 Chris Sherlock, <
chris.sherlock79@gmail.com
wrote:
> To be clear, this is what I was advised: > > “ Harassment concerns can be reviewed under the appropriate
community
> process. I would therefore advise you to report the edit summary
to
the
> appropriate channels on the wiki it occured. If this happened on
English
> Wikipedia, this would be the Administrator's board for incidents. > I hope the above is helpful.” > > Chris > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On 24 Aug 2020, at 6:43 am, Chris Sherlock <
chris.sherlock79@gmail.com
> > wrote: >> >> Hello all, >> >> I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is concerned about
being
> sexually harassed they must report this to AN/I and there are no
private
> mechanisms to report this sort of thing. >> >> Is this for real? >> >> Chris Sherlock >> >> Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
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Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page My print shop:
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Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page My print shop: https://www.redbubble.com/people/Gnangarra/shop?asc=u _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
For a person to report harassment they must first feel safe to do so. Not everyone is capable of dealing with or participating in a public debate about whether they have been harassed, there is a significant difference between arguing facts on a topic and dealing with harassment and offensive comments directed at you. Its a very effective method of ensuring that you can keep control of subject areas, or part of Wikipedia. What is going unnoticed, unrecorded and never dealt with is the same people make personal attacks and harass contributors repeatedly, many of these people are protected by other at AN/I or large followings that ensure they are almost untouchable.
Just like this thread dismissing problems when they are raised is unhelpful, and has a chilling effect on productive outcomes. The lack of alternative safe ways to address issues has been a problem for many years driving away 1,000s of good contributors.
On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 21:47, Chris Gates via Wikimedia-l < wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
I fail to understand how requiring public report of publicly-occurring harassment is a problem.
If people are being harassed constantly via off-wiki communication, emailing a local admin team or T&S is definitely the best thing to do if they don’t want to make it public in an on-wiki report.
However, if it’s on-wiki, I don’t see any viable reason as to why it should not be reported on-wiki as well. By no means is it “doubling down” on harassment; that doesn’t even make much sense considering that it isn’t the collective community making the harassment, it’s an individual. It also doesn’t matter at all what the harasser feels like either; if they’re blocked after a civilly-written and clear-cut report on ANI it doesn’t matter what they think. It’s not acceptable to have a secret police team to handle every content issue; community input exists for a reason, especially on collaborative projects like this.
Further, when did anyone say the community is not willing to handle harassment issues? It truly bothers me to see people write nonsense like this.
I will restate:
Local communities appoint administrators to enforce consensus. There is consensus that harassment should be responded to with warnings and, if repeated or severe, blocks.
These administrators usually have a mailing list and an on-wiki noticeboard. These noticeboards are open for anyone to create sections on, and unless a request was clearly made in bad faith or intentionally misled readers, there is practically no chance of successful retaliatory action on the part of the individual who created the harassment.
In this case, a section was made on ANI, multiple editors commented, and for some reason the section was removed mid-discussion. It is to be expected that someone with an independent viewpoint would seek less radical action than someone directly a party of the dispute. In this case, there was incivility and arguable harassment coming from both parties, though clearly “cutie” is not conducive to the desired contributory environment.
Simple conduct cases are not the sort of issue for T&S. Let them (and often stewards) handle the threats to life, the vandals trying to find where editors live, the IPs making terrorist threats, the new accounts uploading child pornography, the vandals spreading the private details of editors, etc. Basic conduct issues can be handled by local administrators.
And for the “chilling effect” of reporting issues like this publicly, if someone is incapable of seeing other people interpret events another way, disagreeing with them, or not wanting as drastic and immediate action, they may not be suited for a collaborative project.
There are easy ways to handle people who are clearly harassing you on-wiki:
- Ask them to stop. If they refuse,
- Create a section on ANI giving a short, simple, and unbiased explanation
of the issue with diffs. 3) Wait for editors and admins to comment. If the community believes it’s problematic enough to warrant action, action will be taken. If no and the harassment continues continues, 4) Most projects have other methods of handling issues like this. Enwiki has ArbCom for this, simplewiki has community sanction discussions, other projects have other methods.
At no point would removing the ANI report mid-discussion be helpful. And doing so then claiming that it’s the community’s fault is clearly incorrect.
Regards, Vermont
On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 01:46 Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
The code of conduct is not a law. People who are harassers are
criminals
and not above the law. Sexual harassment is a serious offense. Any kind of harrasment is an offense. Wikipedia s administrators are not the law and not above the law.
Wikipedia is not above the law.
The international aspects and the fact that WMF protects editors privacy makes options outside the movement very limited to only the extreme end
of
the scale. Beside the legal aspect its a cop out for the Community & WMF
to
dismiss any harassment as something they cant do anything about, this response is why AN/I is also a waste of time and why so much harassment never gets dealt with, ultimately why the movement has difficulty in attracting under represented groups
On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 13:14, Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής < anonymuswikipedian@gmail.com> wrote:
The code of conduct is not a law. People who are harassers are criminals and not above the law. Sexual harassment is a serious offense. Any kind of harrasment is an offense. Wikipedia s administrators are not the law and not above the
law.
Wikipedia is not above the law. People who seek help should be appointed to the right specialized authorities as the police and not discouraged to do so.
Safety team from my experience, will not help any wikipedian/victim who with report a harrasment case. They are just another department of wikimedia foundation.
Any people is important and count. Please take what ever actions you think is necessary.
I believe you.
Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής
Στις Δευ, 24 Αυγ 2020, 7:39 π.μ. ο χρήστης Robert Myers < robert.myers@wikimedia.org.au> έγραψε:
And there the problem lies, going to local authorities (police) isn’t going to be useful. Some authorities require the alleged crime to be committed in their jurisdiction, which can be limited, anonymous
nature
of
the person who committed the alleged crime makes it difficult to
identify
the individual(s), with it servers hosted outside the jurisdiction
make
it
harder to investigate. Also I have seen in the past, WP:LEGAL used
against
those who have reported threats of physical violence or harassment (physical stalking) to law enforcement.
I do think there needs to be a off-wiki complaint process for serious allegations, since on-wiki processes can be inappropriate and acts
as a
chilling effect (since it is very open and public) on the victim(s).
The
same situation can occur for alleged perpetrator(s), where the allegation(s) are false or vexatious and malicious grievances.
Maybe the Universal Code of Conduct might address this issue, it
might
not
as well.
-- Robert Myers robert.myers@wikimedia.org.au http://www.wikimedia.org.au
On 24 Aug 2020, at 1:37 pm, Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής <
anonymuswikipedian@gmail.com> wrote:
If you ve been sexually harassed in wikipedia this is not a matter
to
be
solved on a mailing list or by Safety team. Go to you local
authorities
and
report it. This is a very serious matter to just become an essay
for
someone or belive that it can be solved by administrators or safety
team.
Safety team in my harassment case told me to "politely" ask my
harrasers
to
stop harassing me. Please don t relay on them for such a serious
matter!
Please be safe and I m sure you can seek help by trained and
serious
people
by your local authorities. I wish someone could told me that in my case then and not point me
to
safety team. They will not help you.
Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής
Στις Δευ, 24 Αυγ 2020, 3:41 π.μ. ο χρήστης Gnangarra <
gnangarra@gmail.com>
έγραψε:
If someone feels harassed then a public noticeboard is the last
place
to
send them for help, that is an absolute failure of the community
to
understand that the act of reporting is also doubling down on the
harm.
Doing so publicly is indicating to the person committing the
harassment
that they have succeeded in causing harm.
This folks is the very reason why we fail to retain editors and
breach
the
imbalance of editors and continue have trouble with bias.
Everyone
speaks
english but the cultural nuances of the language vary greatly with
words
having multiple meanings and being used specifically to cause
offense.
The word cutie has its meanings;
- of being nice looking when talking about kids and animals
but once its used referring to an adult as part of a discussion
its
changes
to that of them being;
- of being an arsehole
- of being picky
- and of having sexual connotations ranging from you are
fuckable,
to
your sexual orientation.
When these complaints get to something like AN/I those cultural
and
linguistic nuances get dismissed and the person using them has
gained
a
lot
of power, self satisfaction, and endorsement of their harassment
as
being
ok, with a bonus that other users are now also enabled to harass
the
complaining editor knowing full well that AN/I will do nothing.
The bottom line is if a person feels harassed they have been
harassed,
whether we understand the depth of why they feel harassed is not
relevant
but that should not be a barrier to prevent further harassment.
> On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 06:21, Isaac Olatunde <
reachout2isaac@gmail.com
> wrote: > > Hello Chris, > > This isn't a terribly bad advise, AFAICS. > > Harassments are treated on a case-by-case basis. > > So, if this is something you aren't comfortable discussing
publicly,
you
> could email the Functionary team or ArbCom or similar body in
that
> community. > > If it's something that should be removed from public view, you
could
> contact the oversight team. > > I can't see the contents of the harassment, so I can only speak
based
on
> general principle. > > Regards > > Isaac > > On Sun, 23 Aug 2020, 23:07 Chris Sherlock, <
chris.sherlock79@gmail.com
> wrote: > >> To be clear, this is what I was advised: >> >> “ Harassment concerns can be reviewed under the appropriate
community
>> process. I would therefore advise you to report the edit summary
to
the
>> appropriate channels on the wiki it occured. If this happened on English >> Wikipedia, this would be the Administrator's board for
incidents.
>> I hope the above is helpful.” >> >> Chris >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On 24 Aug 2020, at 6:43 am, Chris Sherlock < chris.sherlock79@gmail.com >> >> wrote: >>> >>> Hello all, >>> >>> I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is concerned
about
being >> sexually harassed they must report this to AN/I and there are no private >> mechanisms to report this sort of thing. >>> >>> Is this for real? >>> >>> Chris Sherlock >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
,
>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
>> > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
>
-- GN.
*Power of Diverse Collaboration* *Sharing knowledge brings people together* Wikimania Bangkok 2021 August hosted by ESEAP
Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra Noongarpedia:
https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page
My print shop:
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Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page My print shop: https://www.redbubble.com/people/Gnangarra/shop?asc=u _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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Why the harassed normally email T&S but not seeking local help:
Sometimes some kinds of harassment against a person or a group is an orchestrated attempt driven by off-wiki matters. Considering the "importance" of Wikipedia and it's sister projects, and the fundamentally huge size of the movement, it seemed mostly unnoticeable in some cases.
These kinds of planned harassment (not only sexual harassment but all forms of harassment) would not normally be observed in large languages used by different nations because the sheer size of the user base diluted their attempts.
However, if language becomes national and got very limited outside use apart from the country they are from (i.e. Japanese in Japan, or Korean in Korea,etc. Not saying they have a serious sexual harassment problem, just an example), harassment against the minority may appear in all forms, including but not limited to blocking them from any administrative posts, to sexual harassments to an outright ban of some individuals. In this case, local bodies which deal with harassing would be normally held by those who are, or show sympathy to the harasser, and that is the problem.
Local governance (last stand) bodies are usually opaque in nature - the elections to those bodies are normally fair, but it is not transparent enough of what they do just because they are volunteer.
Those very large communities normally have a (relatively) inefficient speed to deal with issues because of the number of problems they receive. The irony is that, for the smaller communities is, the abuser would have some connection with the last-stand bodies, that would mean conflict of interest - though with much irony, COI is not observed when they are playing Wikipolitics.
This means, you either get a local "slow safe soace" because they receive too many case to review per day, or an "unsafe safe space" because harassers know those who deal with these reports.
You either get a language that is too big and inefficient to treat reports, or languages that, because of the size, they harasser may just outright know the ones who deal with these problems. That's why T&S needs way more people.
And not all languages have self-governing bodies.
P.S. Written by someone who had emailed T&S about harassments against himself. One harasser got a conduct warning while the other one got foundation-blocked.
On Mon, Aug 24, 2020, 22:54 Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
For a person to report harassment they must first feel safe to do so. Not everyone is capable of dealing with or participating in a public debate about whether they have been harassed, there is a significant difference between arguing facts on a topic and dealing with harassment and offensive comments directed at you. Its a very effective method of ensuring that you can keep control of subject areas, or part of Wikipedia. What is going unnoticed, unrecorded and never dealt with is the same people make personal attacks and harass contributors repeatedly, many of these people are protected by other at AN/I or large followings that ensure they are almost untouchable.
Just like this thread dismissing problems when they are raised is unhelpful, and has a chilling effect on productive outcomes. The lack of alternative safe ways to address issues has been a problem for many years driving away 1,000s of good contributors.
On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 21:47, Chris Gates via Wikimedia-l < wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
I fail to understand how requiring public report of publicly-occurring harassment is a problem.
If people are being harassed constantly via off-wiki communication, emailing a local admin team or T&S is definitely the best thing to do if they don’t want to make it public in an on-wiki report.
However, if it’s on-wiki, I don’t see any viable reason as to why it
should
not be reported on-wiki as well. By no means is it “doubling down” on harassment; that doesn’t even make much sense considering that it isn’t
the
collective community making the harassment, it’s an individual. It also doesn’t matter at all what the harasser feels like either; if they’re blocked after a civilly-written and clear-cut report on ANI it doesn’t matter what they think. It’s not acceptable to have a secret police team
to
handle every content issue; community input exists for a reason,
especially
on collaborative projects like this.
Further, when did anyone say the community is not willing to handle harassment issues? It truly bothers me to see people write nonsense like this.
I will restate:
Local communities appoint administrators to enforce consensus. There is consensus that harassment should be responded to with warnings and, if repeated or severe, blocks.
These administrators usually have a mailing list and an on-wiki noticeboard. These noticeboards are open for anyone to create sections
on,
and unless a request was clearly made in bad faith or intentionally
misled
readers, there is practically no chance of successful retaliatory action
on
the part of the individual who created the harassment.
In this case, a section was made on ANI, multiple editors commented, and for some reason the section was removed mid-discussion. It is to be expected that someone with an independent viewpoint would seek less
radical
action than someone directly a party of the dispute. In this case, there was incivility and arguable harassment coming from both parties, though clearly “cutie” is not conducive to the desired contributory environment.
Simple conduct cases are not the sort of issue for T&S. Let them (and
often
stewards) handle the threats to life, the vandals trying to find where editors live, the IPs making terrorist threats, the new accounts
uploading
child pornography, the vandals spreading the private details of editors, etc. Basic conduct issues can be handled by local administrators.
And for the “chilling effect” of reporting issues like this publicly, if someone is incapable of seeing other people interpret events another way, disagreeing with them, or not wanting as drastic and immediate action,
they
may not be suited for a collaborative project.
There are easy ways to handle people who are clearly harassing you
on-wiki:
- Ask them to stop. If they refuse,
- Create a section on ANI giving a short, simple, and unbiased
explanation
of the issue with diffs. 3) Wait for editors and admins to comment. If the community believes it’s problematic enough to warrant action, action will be taken. If no and the harassment continues continues, 4) Most projects have other methods of handling issues like this. Enwiki has ArbCom for this, simplewiki has community sanction discussions, other projects have other methods.
At no point would removing the ANI report mid-discussion be helpful. And doing so then claiming that it’s the community’s fault is clearly incorrect.
Regards, Vermont
On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 01:46 Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
The code of conduct is not a law. People who are harassers are
criminals
and not above the law. Sexual harassment is a serious offense. Any
kind
of harrasment is an offense. Wikipedia s administrators are not the
law
and not above the law.
Wikipedia is not above the law.
The international aspects and the fact that WMF protects editors
privacy
makes options outside the movement very limited to only the extreme end
of
the scale. Beside the legal aspect its a cop out for the Community &
WMF
to
dismiss any harassment as something they cant do anything about, this response is why AN/I is also a waste of time and why so much harassment never gets dealt with, ultimately why the movement has difficulty in attracting under represented groups
On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 13:14, Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής < anonymuswikipedian@gmail.com> wrote:
The code of conduct is not a law. People who are harassers are criminals and not above the law. Sexual harassment is a serious offense. Any kind of harrasment is an offense. Wikipedia s administrators are not the law and not above the
law.
Wikipedia is not above the law. People who seek help should be appointed to the right specialized authorities as the police and not discouraged to do so.
Safety team from my experience, will not help any wikipedian/victim
who
with report a harrasment case. They are just another department of wikimedia foundation.
Any people is important and count. Please take what ever actions you think is necessary.
I believe you.
Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής
Στις Δευ, 24 Αυγ 2020, 7:39 π.μ. ο χρήστης Robert Myers < robert.myers@wikimedia.org.au> έγραψε:
And there the problem lies, going to local authorities (police)
isn’t
going to be useful. Some authorities require the alleged crime to
be
committed in their jurisdiction, which can be limited, anonymous
nature
of
the person who committed the alleged crime makes it difficult to
identify
the individual(s), with it servers hosted outside the jurisdiction
make
it
harder to investigate. Also I have seen in the past, WP:LEGAL used
against
those who have reported threats of physical violence or harassment (physical stalking) to law enforcement.
I do think there needs to be a off-wiki complaint process for
serious
allegations, since on-wiki processes can be inappropriate and acts
as a
chilling effect (since it is very open and public) on the
victim(s).
The
same situation can occur for alleged perpetrator(s), where the allegation(s) are false or vexatious and malicious grievances.
Maybe the Universal Code of Conduct might address this issue, it
might
not
as well.
-- Robert Myers robert.myers@wikimedia.org.au http://www.wikimedia.org.au
On 24 Aug 2020, at 1:37 pm, Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής <
anonymuswikipedian@gmail.com> wrote:
If you ve been sexually harassed in wikipedia this is not a
matter
to
be
solved on a mailing list or by Safety team. Go to you local
authorities
and
report it. This is a very serious matter to just become an essay
for
someone or belive that it can be solved by administrators or
safety
team.
Safety team in my harassment case told me to "politely" ask my
harrasers
to
stop harassing me. Please don t relay on them for such a serious
matter!
Please be safe and I m sure you can seek help by trained and
serious
people
by your local authorities. I wish someone could told me that in my case then and not point
me
to
safety team. They will not help you.
Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής
Στις Δευ, 24 Αυγ 2020, 3:41 π.μ. ο χρήστης Gnangarra <
gnangarra@gmail.com>
έγραψε:
> If someone feels harassed then a public noticeboard is the last
place
to
> send them for help, that is an absolute failure of the
community
to
> understand that the act of reporting is also doubling down on
the
harm.
> Doing so publicly is indicating to the person committing the
harassment
> that they have succeeded in causing harm. > > This folks is the very reason why we fail to retain editors and
breach
the
> imbalance of editors and continue have trouble with bias.
Everyone
speaks
> english but the cultural nuances of the language vary greatly
with
words
> having multiple meanings and being used specifically to cause
offense.
> > The word cutie has its meanings; > > - of being nice looking when talking about kids and animals > > but once its used referring to an adult as part of a discussion
its
changes
> to that of them being; > > - of being an arsehole > - of being picky > - and of having sexual connotations ranging from you are
fuckable,
to
> your sexual orientation. > > When these complaints get to something like AN/I those cultural
and
> linguistic nuances get dismissed and the person using them has
gained
a
lot
> of power, self satisfaction, and endorsement of their harassment
as
being
> ok, with a bonus that other users are now also enabled to harass
the
> complaining editor knowing full well that AN/I will do nothing. > > The bottom line is if a person feels harassed they have been
harassed,
> whether we understand the depth of why they feel harassed is not
relevant
> but that should not be a barrier to prevent further harassment. > > >> On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 06:21, Isaac Olatunde <
reachout2isaac@gmail.com
>> wrote: >> >> Hello Chris, >> >> This isn't a terribly bad advise, AFAICS. >> >> Harassments are treated on a case-by-case basis. >> >> So, if this is something you aren't comfortable discussing
publicly,
you
>> could email the Functionary team or ArbCom or similar body in
that
>> community. >> >> If it's something that should be removed from public view, you
could
>> contact the oversight team. >> >> I can't see the contents of the harassment, so I can only speak
based
on
>> general principle. >> >> Regards >> >> Isaac >> >> On Sun, 23 Aug 2020, 23:07 Chris Sherlock, <
chris.sherlock79@gmail.com
>> wrote: >> >>> To be clear, this is what I was advised: >>> >>> “ Harassment concerns can be reviewed under the appropriate
community
>>> process. I would therefore advise you to report the edit
summary
to
the
>>> appropriate channels on the wiki it occured. If this happened
on
> English >>> Wikipedia, this would be the Administrator's board for
incidents.
>>> I hope the above is helpful.” >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On 24 Aug 2020, at 6:43 am, Chris Sherlock < > chris.sherlock79@gmail.com >>> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hello all, >>>> >>>> I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is concerned
about
> being >>> sexually harassed they must report this to AN/I and there are
no
> private >>> mechanisms to report this sort of thing. >>>> >>>> Is this for real? >>>> >>>> Chris Sherlock >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> Unsubscribe:
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I see.
The English Wikipedia, and most projects in general (from my experience), are not perfect at handling problems with established editors.
This is to be expected. However, there’s some element of draconian secret policing present in having a brigade of T&S employees handling any and all conduct issues. We ha e local communities, and in most cases they are successful in handling issues, but when an editor’s social clout is involved, and/or when there’s incivility/harassment from multiple parties, it quickly becomes a larger issue that often ends with little to no action.
With this issue specifically, it’s minor and local community functions would very likely have been able to manage it properly had the discussions continued. The formation of the messages also help determine the outcome; a message saying they were told to report there with no links but one to the editor’s userpage is not very helpful for people viewing it. A list of problematic diffs and an unbiased, unemotional recounting of events is quite helpful for those viewing it. The latter is much likely to result successfully than the former.
Also, T&S actions are not quick and easy either. Their investigations are usually quite extensive and take equally extensive periods of time. Communities act quicker, and though the volunteers may be affected more by personal prejudice than employees of the WMF, we are a collaborative project that relies on community input.
Hopefully the UCoC is successful with setting reasonable definitions and expectations for community enforcement of conduct policies, though in my view larger projects are not the most pressing issue to be addressed by the UCoC. This instance of sexual harassment is minor when viewed in perspective. It’s clearly uncivil and a problem, and we don’t know how the ANI section would have ended up if continued (though I would have supported a strong warning and block if it continued, perhaps an IBAN), but it could have been handled locally. Take a look at most projects with under 30 admins. Small community, usually tightly knit, with entrenched hierarchies of social clout. Those projects are where extreme incivility, blatant bigotry, and clearly biased administrative actions occur most often. Not to mention non-harassment/incivility issues like copyright violations, backwards policies, and historical revisionism, completely ignored by local administrators, which hopefully at some point can be mitigated as well.
Regarding Fæ’s email, it would be interesting and useful to see a study on boomerangs at ANI. It does seem prevalent for newer editors, experiencing biting from more established editors, to be unable to seek rectification for the more established editor’s conduct. It is unfortunately also common that, when incivility exists, some of it is present on both sides, making these issues much less clear-cut and dramatically increasing the potentiality for a boomerang.
Best, Vermont
On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 15:40 William Chan william@wchan.hk wrote:
Why the harassed normally email T&S but not seeking local help:
Sometimes some kinds of harassment against a person or a group is an orchestrated attempt driven by off-wiki matters. Considering the "importance" of Wikipedia and it's sister projects, and the fundamentally huge size of the movement, it seemed mostly unnoticeable in some cases.
These kinds of planned harassment (not only sexual harassment but all forms of harassment) would not normally be observed in large languages used by different nations because the sheer size of the user base diluted their attempts.
However, if language becomes national and got very limited outside use apart from the country they are from (i.e. Japanese in Japan, or Korean in Korea,etc. Not saying they have a serious sexual harassment problem, just an example), harassment against the minority may appear in all forms, including but not limited to blocking them from any administrative posts, to sexual harassments to an outright ban of some individuals. In this case, local bodies which deal with harassing would be normally held by those who are, or show sympathy to the harasser, and that is the problem.
Local governance (last stand) bodies are usually opaque in nature - the elections to those bodies are normally fair, but it is not transparent enough of what they do just because they are volunteer.
Those very large communities normally have a (relatively) inefficient speed to deal with issues because of the number of problems they receive. The irony is that, for the smaller communities is, the abuser would have some connection with the last-stand bodies, that would mean conflict of interest - though with much irony, COI is not observed when they are playing Wikipolitics.
This means, you either get a local "slow safe soace" because they receive too many case to review per day, or an "unsafe safe space" because harassers know those who deal with these reports.
You either get a language that is too big and inefficient to treat reports, or languages that, because of the size, they harasser may just outright know the ones who deal with these problems. That's why T&S needs way more people.
And not all languages have self-governing bodies.
P.S. Written by someone who had emailed T&S about harassments against himself. One harasser got a conduct warning while the other one got foundation-blocked.
On Mon, Aug 24, 2020, 22:54 Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
For a person to report harassment they must first feel safe to do so.
Not
everyone is capable of dealing with or participating in a public debate about whether they have been harassed, there is a significant difference between arguing facts on a topic and dealing with harassment and
offensive
comments directed at you. Its a very effective method of ensuring that
you
can keep control of subject areas, or part of Wikipedia. What is going unnoticed, unrecorded and never dealt with is the same people make
personal
attacks and harass contributors repeatedly, many of these people are protected by other at AN/I or large followings that ensure they are
almost
untouchable.
Just like this thread dismissing problems when they are raised is unhelpful, and has a chilling effect on productive outcomes. The lack
of
alternative safe ways to address issues has been a problem for many years driving away 1,000s of good contributors.
On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 21:47, Chris Gates via Wikimedia-l < wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
I fail to understand how requiring public report of publicly-occurring harassment is a problem.
If people are being harassed constantly via off-wiki communication, emailing a local admin team or T&S is definitely the best thing to do
if
they don’t want to make it public in an on-wiki report.
However, if it’s on-wiki, I don’t see any viable reason as to why it
should
not be reported on-wiki as well. By no means is it “doubling down” on harassment; that doesn’t even make much sense considering that it isn’t
the
collective community making the harassment, it’s an individual. It also doesn’t matter at all what the harasser feels like either; if they’re blocked after a civilly-written and clear-cut report on ANI it doesn’t matter what they think. It’s not acceptable to have a secret police
team
to
handle every content issue; community input exists for a reason,
especially
on collaborative projects like this.
Further, when did anyone say the community is not willing to handle harassment issues? It truly bothers me to see people write nonsense
like
this.
I will restate:
Local communities appoint administrators to enforce consensus. There is consensus that harassment should be responded to with warnings and, if repeated or severe, blocks.
These administrators usually have a mailing list and an on-wiki noticeboard. These noticeboards are open for anyone to create sections
on,
and unless a request was clearly made in bad faith or intentionally
misled
readers, there is practically no chance of successful retaliatory
action
on
the part of the individual who created the harassment.
In this case, a section was made on ANI, multiple editors commented,
and
for some reason the section was removed mid-discussion. It is to be expected that someone with an independent viewpoint would seek less
radical
action than someone directly a party of the dispute. In this case,
there
was incivility and arguable harassment coming from both parties, though clearly “cutie” is not conducive to the desired contributory
environment.
Simple conduct cases are not the sort of issue for T&S. Let them (and
often
stewards) handle the threats to life, the vandals trying to find where editors live, the IPs making terrorist threats, the new accounts
uploading
child pornography, the vandals spreading the private details of
editors,
etc. Basic conduct issues can be handled by local administrators.
And for the “chilling effect” of reporting issues like this publicly,
if
someone is incapable of seeing other people interpret events another
way,
disagreeing with them, or not wanting as drastic and immediate action,
they
may not be suited for a collaborative project.
There are easy ways to handle people who are clearly harassing you
on-wiki:
- Ask them to stop. If they refuse,
- Create a section on ANI giving a short, simple, and unbiased
explanation
of the issue with diffs. 3) Wait for editors and admins to comment. If the community believes
it’s
problematic enough to warrant action, action will be taken. If no and
the
harassment continues continues, 4) Most projects have other methods of handling issues like this.
Enwiki
has ArbCom for this, simplewiki has community sanction discussions,
other
projects have other methods.
At no point would removing the ANI report mid-discussion be helpful.
And
doing so then claiming that it’s the community’s fault is clearly incorrect.
Regards, Vermont
On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 01:46 Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
The code of conduct is not a law. People who are harassers are
criminals
and not above the law. Sexual harassment is a serious offense. Any
kind
of harrasment is an offense. Wikipedia s administrators are not the
law
and not above the law.
Wikipedia is not above the law.
The international aspects and the fact that WMF protects editors
privacy
makes options outside the movement very limited to only the extreme
end
of
the scale. Beside the legal aspect its a cop out for the Community &
WMF
to
dismiss any harassment as something they cant do anything about, this response is why AN/I is also a waste of time and why so much
harassment
never gets dealt with, ultimately why the movement has difficulty in attracting under represented groups
On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 13:14, Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής < anonymuswikipedian@gmail.com> wrote:
The code of conduct is not a law. People who are harassers are criminals and not above the law. Sexual harassment is a serious offense. Any kind of harrasment is
an
offense. Wikipedia s administrators are not the law and not above
the
law.
Wikipedia is not above the law. People who seek help should be appointed to the right specialized authorities as the police and not discouraged to do so.
Safety team from my experience, will not help any wikipedian/victim
who
with report a harrasment case. They are just another department of wikimedia foundation.
Any people is important and count. Please take what ever actions you think is necessary.
I believe you.
Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής
Στις Δευ, 24 Αυγ 2020, 7:39 π.μ. ο χρήστης Robert Myers < robert.myers@wikimedia.org.au> έγραψε:
And there the problem lies, going to local authorities (police)
isn’t
going to be useful. Some authorities require the alleged crime to
be
committed in their jurisdiction, which can be limited, anonymous
nature
of
the person who committed the alleged crime makes it difficult to
identify
the individual(s), with it servers hosted outside the
jurisdiction
make
it
harder to investigate. Also I have seen in the past, WP:LEGAL
used
against
those who have reported threats of physical violence or
harassment
(physical stalking) to law enforcement.
I do think there needs to be a off-wiki complaint process for
serious
allegations, since on-wiki processes can be inappropriate and
acts
as a
chilling effect (since it is very open and public) on the
victim(s).
The
same situation can occur for alleged perpetrator(s), where the allegation(s) are false or vexatious and malicious grievances.
Maybe the Universal Code of Conduct might address this issue, it
might
not
as well.
-- Robert Myers robert.myers@wikimedia.org.au http://www.wikimedia.org.au
> On 24 Aug 2020, at 1:37 pm, Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής < anonymuswikipedian@gmail.com> wrote: > > If you ve been sexually harassed in wikipedia this is not a
matter
to
be
> solved on a mailing list or by Safety team. Go to you local
authorities
and > report it. This is a very serious matter to just become an
essay
for
> someone or belive that it can be solved by administrators or
safety
team.
> Safety team in my harassment case told me to "politely" ask my
harrasers
to > stop harassing me. Please don t relay on them for such a
serious
matter!
> Please be safe and I m sure you can seek help by trained and
serious
people > by your local authorities. > I wish someone could told me that in my case then and not point
me
to
> safety team. They will not help you. > > Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής > > > Στις Δευ, 24 Αυγ 2020, 3:41 π.μ. ο χρήστης Gnangarra < gnangarra@gmail.com> > έγραψε: > >> If someone feels harassed then a public noticeboard is the
last
place
to
>> send them for help, that is an absolute failure of the
community
to
>> understand that the act of reporting is also doubling down on
the
harm.
>> Doing so publicly is indicating to the person committing the
harassment
>> that they have succeeded in causing harm. >> >> This folks is the very reason why we fail to retain editors
and
breach
the >> imbalance of editors and continue have trouble with bias.
Everyone
speaks >> english but the cultural nuances of the language vary greatly
with
words
>> having multiple meanings and being used specifically to cause
offense.
>> >> The word cutie has its meanings; >> >> - of being nice looking when talking about kids and animals >> >> but once its used referring to an adult as part of a
discussion
its
changes >> to that of them being; >> >> - of being an arsehole >> - of being picky >> - and of having sexual connotations ranging from you are
fuckable,
to
>> your sexual orientation. >> >> When these complaints get to something like AN/I those
cultural
and
>> linguistic nuances get dismissed and the person using them has
gained
a
lot >> of power, self satisfaction, and endorsement of their
harassment
as
being >> ok, with a bonus that other users are now also enabled to
harass
the
>> complaining editor knowing full well that AN/I will do
nothing.
>> >> The bottom line is if a person feels harassed they have been
harassed,
>> whether we understand the depth of why they feel harassed is
not
relevant >> but that should not be a barrier to prevent further
harassment.
>> >> >>> On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 06:21, Isaac Olatunde <
reachout2isaac@gmail.com
> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hello Chris, >>> >>> This isn't a terribly bad advise, AFAICS. >>> >>> Harassments are treated on a case-by-case basis. >>> >>> So, if this is something you aren't comfortable discussing
publicly,
you >>> could email the Functionary team or ArbCom or similar body in
that
>>> community. >>> >>> If it's something that should be removed from public view,
you
could
>>> contact the oversight team. >>> >>> I can't see the contents of the harassment, so I can only
speak
based
on >>> general principle. >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Isaac >>> >>> On Sun, 23 Aug 2020, 23:07 Chris Sherlock, <
chris.sherlock79@gmail.com
> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> To be clear, this is what I was advised: >>>> >>>> “ Harassment concerns can be reviewed under the appropriate
community
>>>> process. I would therefore advise you to report the edit
summary
to
the >>>> appropriate channels on the wiki it occured. If this
happened
on
>> English >>>> Wikipedia, this would be the Administrator's board for
incidents.
>>>> I hope the above is helpful.” >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On 24 Aug 2020, at 6:43 am, Chris Sherlock < >> chris.sherlock79@gmail.com >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hello all, >>>>> >>>>> I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is concerned
about
>> being >>>> sexually harassed they must report this to AN/I and there
are
no
>> private >>>> mechanisms to report this sort of thing. >>>>> >>>>> Is this for real? >>>>> >>>>> Chris Sherlock >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
and
>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>> Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
, >>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
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>>> >> >> >> -- >> GN. >> >> *Power of Diverse Collaboration* >> *Sharing knowledge brings people together* >> Wikimania Bangkok 2021 >> August >> hosted by ESEAP >> >> Wikimania:
https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra
>> Noongarpedia:
https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page
>> My print shop:
https://www.redbubble.com/people/Gnangarra/shop?asc=u
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Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page My print shop: https://www.redbubble.com/people/Gnangarra/shop?asc=u _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
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Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page My print shop: https://www.redbubble.com/people/Gnangarra/shop?asc=u _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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The whole purpose of harassing someone is to put them under pressure, to make the victim upset and force them away from editing. Creating a clear list of problematic diffs and an unbiased, unemotional recounting of events is impossible during the incident, when all thats desired is to have the immediate abuse stopped. Emotive language is a call for help, seasoned abusers know how to play the game AN/I and the community knows them so when they boo the community accepts their version. At AN/I and as Vermont explain its the victim that has to be restrain their language, its the victim that has to be calm, its the victim that has to clearly lay out all the diffs, its the victim that has to recount/relive the whole of the abuse. The victim is not at fault but until the system supports the victim the problems of in grained abuse and hostility by old hands is going to remain.
On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 17:51, Chris Gates via Wikimedia-l < wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
I see.
The English Wikipedia, and most projects in general (from my experience), are not perfect at handling problems with established editors.
This is to be expected. However, there’s some element of draconian secret policing present in having a brigade of T&S employees handling any and all conduct issues. We ha e local communities, and in most cases they are successful in handling issues, but when an editor’s social clout is involved, and/or when there’s incivility/harassment from multiple parties, it quickly becomes a larger issue that often ends with little to no action.
With this issue specifically, it’s minor and local community functions would very likely have been able to manage it properly had the discussions continued. The formation of the messages also help determine the outcome; a message saying they were told to report there with no links but one to the editor’s userpage is not very helpful for people viewing it. A list of problematic diffs and an unbiased, unemotional recounting of events is quite helpful for those viewing it. The latter is much likely to result successfully than the former.
Also, T&S actions are not quick and easy either. Their investigations are usually quite extensive and take equally extensive periods of time. Communities act quicker, and though the volunteers may be affected more by personal prejudice than employees of the WMF, we are a collaborative project that relies on community input.
Hopefully the UCoC is successful with setting reasonable definitions and expectations for community enforcement of conduct policies, though in my view larger projects are not the most pressing issue to be addressed by the UCoC. This instance of sexual harassment is minor when viewed in perspective. It’s clearly uncivil and a problem, and we don’t know how the ANI section would have ended up if continued (though I would have supported a strong warning and block if it continued, perhaps an IBAN), but it could have been handled locally. Take a look at most projects with under 30 admins. Small community, usually tightly knit, with entrenched hierarchies of social clout. Those projects are where extreme incivility, blatant bigotry, and clearly biased administrative actions occur most often. Not to mention non-harassment/incivility issues like copyright violations, backwards policies, and historical revisionism, completely ignored by local administrators, which hopefully at some point can be mitigated as well.
Regarding Fæ’s email, it would be interesting and useful to see a study on boomerangs at ANI. It does seem prevalent for newer editors, experiencing biting from more established editors, to be unable to seek rectification for the more established editor’s conduct. It is unfortunately also common that, when incivility exists, some of it is present on both sides, making these issues much less clear-cut and dramatically increasing the potentiality for a boomerang.
Best, Vermont
On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 15:40 William Chan william@wchan.hk wrote:
Why the harassed normally email T&S but not seeking local help:
Sometimes some kinds of harassment against a person or a group is an orchestrated attempt driven by off-wiki matters. Considering the "importance" of Wikipedia and it's sister projects, and the fundamentally huge size of the movement, it seemed mostly unnoticeable in some cases.
These kinds of planned harassment (not only sexual harassment but all
forms
of harassment) would not normally be observed in large languages used by different nations because the sheer size of the user base diluted their attempts.
However, if language becomes national and got very limited outside use apart from the country they are from (i.e. Japanese in Japan, or Korean
in
Korea,etc. Not saying they have a serious sexual harassment problem, just an example), harassment against the minority may appear in all forms, including but not limited to blocking them from any administrative posts, to sexual harassments to an outright ban of some individuals. In this
case,
local bodies which deal with harassing would be normally held by those
who
are, or show sympathy to the harasser, and that is the problem.
Local governance (last stand) bodies are usually opaque in nature - the elections to those bodies are normally fair, but it is not transparent enough of what they do just because they are volunteer.
Those very large communities normally have a (relatively) inefficient
speed
to deal with issues because of the number of problems they receive. The irony is that, for the smaller communities is, the abuser would have some connection with the last-stand bodies, that would mean conflict of interest - though with much irony, COI is not observed when they are playing Wikipolitics.
This means, you either get a local "slow safe soace" because they receive too many case to review per day, or an "unsafe safe space" because harassers know those who deal with these reports.
You either get a language that is too big and inefficient to treat
reports,
or languages that, because of the size, they harasser may just outright know the ones who deal with these problems. That's why T&S needs way more people.
And not all languages have self-governing bodies.
P.S. Written by someone who had emailed T&S about harassments against himself. One harasser got a conduct warning while the other one got foundation-blocked.
On Mon, Aug 24, 2020, 22:54 Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
For a person to report harassment they must first feel safe to do so.
Not
everyone is capable of dealing with or participating in a public debate about whether they have been harassed, there is a significant
difference
between arguing facts on a topic and dealing with harassment and
offensive
comments directed at you. Its a very effective method of ensuring that
you
can keep control of subject areas, or part of Wikipedia. What is going unnoticed, unrecorded and never dealt with is the same people make
personal
attacks and harass contributors repeatedly, many of these people are protected by other at AN/I or large followings that ensure they are
almost
untouchable.
Just like this thread dismissing problems when they are raised is unhelpful, and has a chilling effect on productive outcomes. The lack
of
alternative safe ways to address issues has been a problem for many
years
driving away 1,000s of good contributors.
On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 21:47, Chris Gates via Wikimedia-l < wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
I fail to understand how requiring public report of
publicly-occurring
harassment is a problem.
If people are being harassed constantly via off-wiki communication, emailing a local admin team or T&S is definitely the best thing to do
if
they don’t want to make it public in an on-wiki report.
However, if it’s on-wiki, I don’t see any viable reason as to why it
should
not be reported on-wiki as well. By no means is it “doubling down” on harassment; that doesn’t even make much sense considering that it
isn’t
the
collective community making the harassment, it’s an individual. It
also
doesn’t matter at all what the harasser feels like either; if they’re blocked after a civilly-written and clear-cut report on ANI it
doesn’t
matter what they think. It’s not acceptable to have a secret police
team
to
handle every content issue; community input exists for a reason,
especially
on collaborative projects like this.
Further, when did anyone say the community is not willing to handle harassment issues? It truly bothers me to see people write nonsense
like
this.
I will restate:
Local communities appoint administrators to enforce consensus. There
is
consensus that harassment should be responded to with warnings and,
if
repeated or severe, blocks.
These administrators usually have a mailing list and an on-wiki noticeboard. These noticeboards are open for anyone to create
sections
on,
and unless a request was clearly made in bad faith or intentionally
misled
readers, there is practically no chance of successful retaliatory
action
on
the part of the individual who created the harassment.
In this case, a section was made on ANI, multiple editors commented,
and
for some reason the section was removed mid-discussion. It is to be expected that someone with an independent viewpoint would seek less
radical
action than someone directly a party of the dispute. In this case,
there
was incivility and arguable harassment coming from both parties,
though
clearly “cutie” is not conducive to the desired contributory
environment.
Simple conduct cases are not the sort of issue for T&S. Let them (and
often
stewards) handle the threats to life, the vandals trying to find
where
editors live, the IPs making terrorist threats, the new accounts
uploading
child pornography, the vandals spreading the private details of
editors,
etc. Basic conduct issues can be handled by local administrators.
And for the “chilling effect” of reporting issues like this publicly,
if
someone is incapable of seeing other people interpret events another
way,
disagreeing with them, or not wanting as drastic and immediate
action,
they
may not be suited for a collaborative project.
There are easy ways to handle people who are clearly harassing you
on-wiki:
- Ask them to stop. If they refuse,
- Create a section on ANI giving a short, simple, and unbiased
explanation
of the issue with diffs. 3) Wait for editors and admins to comment. If the community believes
it’s
problematic enough to warrant action, action will be taken. If no and
the
harassment continues continues, 4) Most projects have other methods of handling issues like this.
Enwiki
has ArbCom for this, simplewiki has community sanction discussions,
other
projects have other methods.
At no point would removing the ANI report mid-discussion be helpful.
And
doing so then claiming that it’s the community’s fault is clearly incorrect.
Regards, Vermont
On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 01:46 Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
The code of conduct is not a law. People who are harassers are
criminals
and not above the law. Sexual harassment is a serious offense.
Any
kind
of harrasment is an offense. Wikipedia s administrators are not
the
law
and not above the law.
Wikipedia is not above the law.
The international aspects and the fact that WMF protects editors
privacy
makes options outside the movement very limited to only the extreme
end
of
the scale. Beside the legal aspect its a cop out for the Community
&
WMF
to
dismiss any harassment as something they cant do anything about,
this
response is why AN/I is also a waste of time and why so much
harassment
never gets dealt with, ultimately why the movement has difficulty
in
attracting under represented groups
On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 13:14, Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής < anonymuswikipedian@gmail.com> wrote:
The code of conduct is not a law. People who are harassers are criminals and not above the law. Sexual harassment is a serious offense. Any kind of harrasment is
an
offense. Wikipedia s administrators are not the law and not above
the
law.
Wikipedia is not above the law. People who seek help should be appointed to the right specialized authorities as the police and not discouraged to do so.
Safety team from my experience, will not help any
wikipedian/victim
who
with report a harrasment case. They are just another department
of
wikimedia foundation.
Any people is important and count. Please take what ever actions you think is necessary.
I believe you.
Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής
Στις Δευ, 24 Αυγ 2020, 7:39 π.μ. ο χρήστης Robert Myers < robert.myers@wikimedia.org.au> έγραψε:
> And there the problem lies, going to local authorities (police)
isn’t
> going to be useful. Some authorities require the alleged crime
to
be
> committed in their jurisdiction, which can be limited,
anonymous
nature
of > the person who committed the alleged crime makes it difficult
to
identify
> the individual(s), with it servers hosted outside the
jurisdiction
make
it > harder to investigate. Also I have seen in the past, WP:LEGAL
used
against > those who have reported threats of physical violence or
harassment
> (physical stalking) to law enforcement. > > I do think there needs to be a off-wiki complaint process for
serious
> allegations, since on-wiki processes can be inappropriate and
acts
as a
> chilling effect (since it is very open and public) on the
victim(s).
The
> same situation can occur for alleged perpetrator(s), where the > allegation(s) are false or vexatious and malicious grievances. > > Maybe the Universal Code of Conduct might address this issue,
it
might
not > as well. > > -- > Robert Myers > robert.myers@wikimedia.org.au > http://www.wikimedia.org.au > > > On 24 Aug 2020, at 1:37 pm, Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής < > anonymuswikipedian@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > If you ve been sexually harassed in wikipedia this is not a
matter
to
be > > solved on a mailing list or by Safety team. Go to you local
authorities
> and > > report it. This is a very serious matter to just become an
essay
for
> > someone or belive that it can be solved by administrators or
safety
team. > > Safety team in my harassment case told me to "politely" ask
my
harrasers > to > > stop harassing me. Please don t relay on them for such a
serious
matter! > > Please be safe and I m sure you can seek help by trained and
serious
> people > > by your local authorities. > > I wish someone could told me that in my case then and not
point
me
to
> > safety team. They will not help you. > > > > Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής > > > > > > Στις Δευ, 24 Αυγ 2020, 3:41 π.μ. ο χρήστης Gnangarra < > gnangarra@gmail.com> > > έγραψε: > > > >> If someone feels harassed then a public noticeboard is the
last
place
to > >> send them for help, that is an absolute failure of the
community
to
> >> understand that the act of reporting is also doubling down
on
the
harm. > >> Doing so publicly is indicating to the person committing the harassment > >> that they have succeeded in causing harm. > >> > >> This folks is the very reason why we fail to retain editors
and
breach
> the > >> imbalance of editors and continue have trouble with bias.
Everyone
> speaks > >> english but the cultural nuances of the language vary
greatly
with
words > >> having multiple meanings and being used specifically to
cause
offense.
> >> > >> The word cutie has its meanings; > >> > >> - of being nice looking when talking about kids and
animals
> >> > >> but once its used referring to an adult as part of a
discussion
its
> changes > >> to that of them being; > >> > >> - of being an arsehole > >> - of being picky > >> - and of having sexual connotations ranging from you are
fuckable,
to > >> your sexual orientation. > >> > >> When these complaints get to something like AN/I those
cultural
and
> >> linguistic nuances get dismissed and the person using them
has
gained
a > lot > >> of power, self satisfaction, and endorsement of their
harassment
as
> being > >> ok, with a bonus that other users are now also enabled to
harass
the
> >> complaining editor knowing full well that AN/I will do
nothing.
> >> > >> The bottom line is if a person feels harassed they have been
harassed,
> >> whether we understand the depth of why they feel harassed is
not
> relevant > >> but that should not be a barrier to prevent further
harassment.
> >> > >> > >>> On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 06:21, Isaac Olatunde < reachout2isaac@gmail.com > > > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> Hello Chris, > >>> > >>> This isn't a terribly bad advise, AFAICS. > >>> > >>> Harassments are treated on a case-by-case basis. > >>> > >>> So, if this is something you aren't comfortable discussing
publicly,
> you > >>> could email the Functionary team or ArbCom or similar body
in
that
> >>> community. > >>> > >>> If it's something that should be removed from public view,
you
could
> >>> contact the oversight team. > >>> > >>> I can't see the contents of the harassment, so I can only
speak
based
> on > >>> general principle. > >>> > >>> Regards > >>> > >>> Isaac > >>> > >>> On Sun, 23 Aug 2020, 23:07 Chris Sherlock, < chris.sherlock79@gmail.com > > > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> To be clear, this is what I was advised: > >>>> > >>>> “ Harassment concerns can be reviewed under the
appropriate
community > >>>> process. I would therefore advise you to report the edit
summary
to
> the > >>>> appropriate channels on the wiki it occured. If this
happened
on
> >> English > >>>> Wikipedia, this would be the Administrator's board for
incidents.
> >>>> I hope the above is helpful.” > >>>> > >>>> Chris > >>>> > >>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>> > >>>>> On 24 Aug 2020, at 6:43 am, Chris Sherlock < > >> chris.sherlock79@gmail.com > >>>> > >>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Hello all, > >>>>> > >>>>> I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is
concerned
about
> >> being > >>>> sexually harassed they must report this to AN/I and there
are
no
> >> private > >>>> mechanisms to report this sort of thing. > >>>>> > >>>>> Is this for real? > >>>>> > >>>>> Chris Sherlock > >>>>> > >>>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
and
> >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > >>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > >>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > , > >>>> mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org ?subject=unsubscribe > >>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
and
> >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > >>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > >>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> GN. > >> > >> *Power of Diverse Collaboration* > >> *Sharing knowledge brings people together* > >> Wikimania Bangkok 2021 > >> August > >> hosted by ESEAP > >> > >> Wikimania:
https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> >> Noongarpedia:
https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page
> >> My print shop:
https://www.redbubble.com/people/Gnangarra/shop?asc=u
> >> _______________________________________________ > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
and
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > >> Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
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?subject=unsubscribe>
> >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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-- GN.
*Power of Diverse Collaboration* *Sharing knowledge brings people together* Wikimania Bangkok 2021 August hosted by ESEAP
Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra Noongarpedia:
https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page
My print shop:
https://www.redbubble.com/people/Gnangarra/shop?asc=u
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*Power of Diverse Collaboration* *Sharing knowledge brings people together* Wikimania Bangkok 2021 August hosted by ESEAP
Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page My print shop: https://www.redbubble.com/people/Gnangarra/shop?asc=u _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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In addition, (English Wikipedia) ANI can reasonably well deal with one or several highly problematic diffs, but very often we have a long pattern which can result in a long series of diffs, so that each one is unproblematic or slightly problematic, but all together thay may constitute a harassment pattern and make the victim feel very unpleasant. ANI is absolutely not capable of dealing with this situation, and usually ArbCom can not handle it either. In my situation, I overreacted a couple of times, and then every time I would try to raise the question at best it would be called "keeping old grudges" and I was advised to "grow thick skin", but more often that it was told it was my fault and in fact it was harassment from my side. ArbCom was not capable of performing any better. To be honest, I do not see how T&S can perform better either. An investigation of such situation would require wading through thousands of diffs and reconstructing the whole episodes, and I just do not see how this can be done.
Best Yaroslav
On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 12:57 PM Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
The whole purpose of harassing someone is to put them under pressure, to make the victim upset and force them away from editing. Creating a clear list of problematic diffs and an unbiased, unemotional recounting of events is impossible during the incident, when all thats desired is to have the immediate abuse stopped. Emotive language is a call for help, seasoned abusers know how to play the game AN/I and the community knows them so when they boo the community accepts their version. At AN/I and as Vermont explain its the victim that has to be restrain their language, its the victim that has to be calm, its the victim that has to clearly lay out all the diffs, its the victim that has to recount/relive the whole of the abuse. The victim is not at fault but until the system supports the victim the problems of in grained abuse and hostility by old hands is going to remain.
On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 17:51, Chris Gates via Wikimedia-l < wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
I see.
The English Wikipedia, and most projects in general (from my experience), are not perfect at handling problems with established editors.
This is to be expected. However, there’s some element of draconian secret policing present in having a brigade of T&S employees handling any and
all
conduct issues. We ha e local communities, and in most cases they are successful in handling issues, but when an editor’s social clout is involved, and/or when there’s incivility/harassment from multiple
parties,
it quickly becomes a larger issue that often ends with little to no
action.
With this issue specifically, it’s minor and local community functions would very likely have been able to manage it properly had the
discussions
continued. The formation of the messages also help determine the
outcome; a
message saying they were told to report there with no links but one to
the
editor’s userpage is not very helpful for people viewing it. A list of problematic diffs and an unbiased, unemotional recounting of events is quite helpful for those viewing it. The latter is much likely to result successfully than the former.
Also, T&S actions are not quick and easy either. Their investigations are usually quite extensive and take equally extensive periods of time. Communities act quicker, and though the volunteers may be affected more
by
personal prejudice than employees of the WMF, we are a collaborative project that relies on community input.
Hopefully the UCoC is successful with setting reasonable definitions and expectations for community enforcement of conduct policies, though in my view larger projects are not the most pressing issue to be addressed by
the
UCoC. This instance of sexual harassment is minor when viewed in perspective. It’s clearly uncivil and a problem, and we don’t know how
the
ANI section would have ended up if continued (though I would have
supported
a strong warning and block if it continued, perhaps an IBAN), but it
could
have been handled locally. Take a look at most projects with under 30 admins. Small community, usually tightly knit, with entrenched
hierarchies
of social clout. Those projects are where extreme incivility, blatant bigotry, and clearly biased administrative actions occur most often. Not
to
mention non-harassment/incivility issues like copyright violations, backwards policies, and historical revisionism, completely ignored by
local
administrators, which hopefully at some point can be mitigated as well.
Regarding Fæ’s email, it would be interesting and useful to see a study
on
boomerangs at ANI. It does seem prevalent for newer editors, experiencing biting from more established editors, to be unable to seek rectification for the more established editor’s conduct. It is unfortunately also
common
that, when incivility exists, some of it is present on both sides, making these issues much less clear-cut and dramatically increasing the potentiality for a boomerang.
Best, Vermont
On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 15:40 William Chan william@wchan.hk wrote:
Why the harassed normally email T&S but not seeking local help:
Sometimes some kinds of harassment against a person or a group is an orchestrated attempt driven by off-wiki matters. Considering the "importance" of Wikipedia and it's sister projects, and the
fundamentally
huge size of the movement, it seemed mostly unnoticeable in some cases.
These kinds of planned harassment (not only sexual harassment but all
forms
of harassment) would not normally be observed in large languages used
by
different nations because the sheer size of the user base diluted their attempts.
However, if language becomes national and got very limited outside use apart from the country they are from (i.e. Japanese in Japan, or Korean
in
Korea,etc. Not saying they have a serious sexual harassment problem,
just
an example), harassment against the minority may appear in all forms, including but not limited to blocking them from any administrative
posts,
to sexual harassments to an outright ban of some individuals. In this
case,
local bodies which deal with harassing would be normally held by those
who
are, or show sympathy to the harasser, and that is the problem.
Local governance (last stand) bodies are usually opaque in nature - the elections to those bodies are normally fair, but it is not transparent enough of what they do just because they are volunteer.
Those very large communities normally have a (relatively) inefficient
speed
to deal with issues because of the number of problems they receive. The irony is that, for the smaller communities is, the abuser would
have
some connection with the last-stand bodies, that would mean conflict of interest - though with much irony, COI is not observed when they are playing Wikipolitics.
This means, you either get a local "slow safe soace" because they
receive
too many case to review per day, or an "unsafe safe space" because harassers know those who deal with these reports.
You either get a language that is too big and inefficient to treat
reports,
or languages that, because of the size, they harasser may just outright know the ones who deal with these problems. That's why T&S needs way
more
people.
And not all languages have self-governing bodies.
P.S. Written by someone who had emailed T&S about harassments against himself. One harasser got a conduct warning while the other one got foundation-blocked.
On Mon, Aug 24, 2020, 22:54 Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
For a person to report harassment they must first feel safe to do
so.
Not
everyone is capable of dealing with or participating in a public
debate
about whether they have been harassed, there is a significant
difference
between arguing facts on a topic and dealing with harassment and
offensive
comments directed at you. Its a very effective method of ensuring
that
you
can keep control of subject areas, or part of Wikipedia. What is
going
unnoticed, unrecorded and never dealt with is the same people make
personal
attacks and harass contributors repeatedly, many of these people are protected by other at AN/I or large followings that ensure they are
almost
untouchable.
Just like this thread dismissing problems when they are raised is unhelpful, and has a chilling effect on productive outcomes. The
lack
of
alternative safe ways to address issues has been a problem for many
years
driving away 1,000s of good contributors.
On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 21:47, Chris Gates via Wikimedia-l < wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
I fail to understand how requiring public report of
publicly-occurring
harassment is a problem.
If people are being harassed constantly via off-wiki communication, emailing a local admin team or T&S is definitely the best thing to
do
if
they don’t want to make it public in an on-wiki report.
However, if it’s on-wiki, I don’t see any viable reason as to why
it
should
not be reported on-wiki as well. By no means is it “doubling down”
on
harassment; that doesn’t even make much sense considering that it
isn’t
the
collective community making the harassment, it’s an individual. It
also
doesn’t matter at all what the harasser feels like either; if
they’re
blocked after a civilly-written and clear-cut report on ANI it
doesn’t
matter what they think. It’s not acceptable to have a secret police
team
to
handle every content issue; community input exists for a reason,
especially
on collaborative projects like this.
Further, when did anyone say the community is not willing to handle harassment issues? It truly bothers me to see people write nonsense
like
this.
I will restate:
Local communities appoint administrators to enforce consensus.
There
is
consensus that harassment should be responded to with warnings and,
if
repeated or severe, blocks.
These administrators usually have a mailing list and an on-wiki noticeboard. These noticeboards are open for anyone to create
sections
on,
and unless a request was clearly made in bad faith or intentionally
misled
readers, there is practically no chance of successful retaliatory
action
on
the part of the individual who created the harassment.
In this case, a section was made on ANI, multiple editors
commented,
and
for some reason the section was removed mid-discussion. It is to be expected that someone with an independent viewpoint would seek less
radical
action than someone directly a party of the dispute. In this case,
there
was incivility and arguable harassment coming from both parties,
though
clearly “cutie” is not conducive to the desired contributory
environment.
Simple conduct cases are not the sort of issue for T&S. Let them
(and
often
stewards) handle the threats to life, the vandals trying to find
where
editors live, the IPs making terrorist threats, the new accounts
uploading
child pornography, the vandals spreading the private details of
editors,
etc. Basic conduct issues can be handled by local administrators.
And for the “chilling effect” of reporting issues like this
publicly,
if
someone is incapable of seeing other people interpret events
another
way,
disagreeing with them, or not wanting as drastic and immediate
action,
they
may not be suited for a collaborative project.
There are easy ways to handle people who are clearly harassing you
on-wiki:
- Ask them to stop. If they refuse,
- Create a section on ANI giving a short, simple, and unbiased
explanation
of the issue with diffs. 3) Wait for editors and admins to comment. If the community
believes
it’s
problematic enough to warrant action, action will be taken. If no
and
the
harassment continues continues, 4) Most projects have other methods of handling issues like this.
Enwiki
has ArbCom for this, simplewiki has community sanction discussions,
other
projects have other methods.
At no point would removing the ANI report mid-discussion be
helpful.
And
doing so then claiming that it’s the community’s fault is clearly incorrect.
Regards, Vermont
On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 01:46 Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com
wrote:
> > The code of conduct is not a law. People who are harassers are
criminals
> and not above the law. Sexual harassment is a serious offense.
Any
kind
> of harrasment is an offense. Wikipedia s administrators are not
the
law
> and not above the law.
Wikipedia is not above the law.
The international aspects and the fact that WMF protects editors
privacy
makes options outside the movement very limited to only the
extreme
end
of
the scale. Beside the legal aspect its a cop out for the
Community
&
WMF
to
dismiss any harassment as something they cant do anything about,
this
response is why AN/I is also a waste of time and why so much
harassment
never gets dealt with, ultimately why the movement has difficulty
in
attracting under represented groups
On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 13:14, Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής < anonymuswikipedian@gmail.com> wrote:
> The code of conduct is not a law. > People who are harassers are criminals and not above the law. > Sexual harassment is a serious offense. Any kind of harrasment
is
an
> offense. Wikipedia s administrators are not the law and not
above
the
law. > Wikipedia is not above the law. > People who seek help should be appointed to the right
specialized
> authorities as the police and not discouraged to do so. > > Safety team from my experience, will not help any
wikipedian/victim
who
> with report a harrasment case. They are just another department
of
> wikimedia foundation. > > Any people is important and count. > Please take what ever actions you think is necessary. > > I believe you. > > Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής > > > Στις Δευ, 24 Αυγ 2020, 7:39 π.μ. ο χρήστης Robert Myers < > robert.myers@wikimedia.org.au> έγραψε: > > > And there the problem lies, going to local authorities
(police)
isn’t
> > going to be useful. Some authorities require the alleged
crime
to
be
> > committed in their jurisdiction, which can be limited,
anonymous
nature
> of > > the person who committed the alleged crime makes it difficult
to
identify > > the individual(s), with it servers hosted outside the
jurisdiction
make
> it > > harder to investigate. Also I have seen in the past, WP:LEGAL
used
> against > > those who have reported threats of physical violence or
harassment
> > (physical stalking) to law enforcement. > > > > I do think there needs to be a off-wiki complaint process for
serious
> > allegations, since on-wiki processes can be inappropriate and
acts
as a
> > chilling effect (since it is very open and public) on the
victim(s).
The > > same situation can occur for alleged perpetrator(s), where
the
> > allegation(s) are false or vexatious and malicious
grievances.
> > > > Maybe the Universal Code of Conduct might address this issue,
it
might
> not > > as well. > > > > -- > > Robert Myers > > robert.myers@wikimedia.org.au > > http://www.wikimedia.org.au > > > > > On 24 Aug 2020, at 1:37 pm, Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής < > > anonymuswikipedian@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > If you ve been sexually harassed in wikipedia this is not
a
matter
to > be > > > solved on a mailing list or by Safety team. Go to you local authorities > > and > > > report it. This is a very serious matter to just become an
essay
for
> > > someone or belive that it can be solved by administrators
or
safety
> team. > > > Safety team in my harassment case told me to "politely" ask
my
> harrasers > > to > > > stop harassing me. Please don t relay on them for such a
serious
> matter! > > > Please be safe and I m sure you can seek help by trained
and
serious
> > people > > > by your local authorities. > > > I wish someone could told me that in my case then and not
point
me
to
> > > safety team. They will not help you. > > > > > > Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής > > > > > > > > > Στις Δευ, 24 Αυγ 2020, 3:41 π.μ. ο χρήστης Gnangarra < > > gnangarra@gmail.com> > > > έγραψε: > > > > > >> If someone feels harassed then a public noticeboard is the
last
place > to > > >> send them for help, that is an absolute failure of the
community
to
> > >> understand that the act of reporting is also doubling down
on
the
> harm. > > >> Doing so publicly is indicating to the person committing
the
> harassment > > >> that they have succeeded in causing harm. > > >> > > >> This folks is the very reason why we fail to retain
editors
and
breach > > the > > >> imbalance of editors and continue have trouble with bias.
Everyone
> > speaks > > >> english but the cultural nuances of the language vary
greatly
with
> words > > >> having multiple meanings and being used specifically to
cause
offense. > > >> > > >> The word cutie has its meanings; > > >> > > >> - of being nice looking when talking about kids and
animals
> > >> > > >> but once its used referring to an adult as part of a
discussion
its
> > changes > > >> to that of them being; > > >> > > >> - of being an arsehole > > >> - of being picky > > >> - and of having sexual connotations ranging from you are
fuckable,
> to > > >> your sexual orientation. > > >> > > >> When these complaints get to something like AN/I those
cultural
and
> > >> linguistic nuances get dismissed and the person using them
has
gained > a > > lot > > >> of power, self satisfaction, and endorsement of their
harassment
as
> > being > > >> ok, with a bonus that other users are now also enabled to
harass
the
> > >> complaining editor knowing full well that AN/I will do
nothing.
> > >> > > >> The bottom line is if a person feels harassed they have
been
harassed, > > >> whether we understand the depth of why they feel harassed
is
not
> > relevant > > >> but that should not be a barrier to prevent further
harassment.
> > >> > > >> > > >>> On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 06:21, Isaac Olatunde < > reachout2isaac@gmail.com > > > > > >>> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Hello Chris, > > >>> > > >>> This isn't a terribly bad advise, AFAICS. > > >>> > > >>> Harassments are treated on a case-by-case basis. > > >>> > > >>> So, if this is something you aren't comfortable
discussing
publicly, > > you > > >>> could email the Functionary team or ArbCom or similar
body
in
that
> > >>> community. > > >>> > > >>> If it's something that should be removed from public
view,
you
could > > >>> contact the oversight team. > > >>> > > >>> I can't see the contents of the harassment, so I can only
speak
based > > on > > >>> general principle. > > >>> > > >>> Regards > > >>> > > >>> Isaac > > >>> > > >>> On Sun, 23 Aug 2020, 23:07 Chris Sherlock, < > chris.sherlock79@gmail.com > > > > > >>> wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> To be clear, this is what I was advised: > > >>>> > > >>>> “ Harassment concerns can be reviewed under the
appropriate
> community > > >>>> process. I would therefore advise you to report the edit
summary
to > > the > > >>>> appropriate channels on the wiki it occured. If this
happened
on
> > >> English > > >>>> Wikipedia, this would be the Administrator's board for
incidents.
> > >>>> I hope the above is helpful.” > > >>>> > > >>>> Chris > > >>>> > > >>>> Sent from my iPhone > > >>>> > > >>>>> On 24 Aug 2020, at 6:43 am, Chris Sherlock < > > >> chris.sherlock79@gmail.com > > >>>> > > >>>> wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Hello all, > > >>>>> > > >>>>> I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is
concerned
about
> > >> being > > >>>> sexually harassed they must report this to AN/I and
there
are
no
> > >> private > > >>>> mechanisms to report this sort of thing. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Is this for real? > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Chris Sherlock > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Sent from my iPhone > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > >>>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
and
> > >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > >>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > >>>> Unsubscribe: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > > , > > >>>> mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org ?subject=unsubscribe> > > >>>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
and
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https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> > >> Noongarpedia:
https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page
> > >> My print shop: https://www.redbubble.com/people/Gnangarra/shop?asc=u > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
and
> > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > , > > >> mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org ?subject=unsubscribe > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
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>
-- GN.
*Power of Diverse Collaboration* *Sharing knowledge brings people together* Wikimania Bangkok 2021 August hosted by ESEAP
Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra Noongarpedia:
https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page
My print shop:
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Yaroslav is right it is difficult to wade through every minor diff to see a pattern and AN/I is incapable of reacting to anything but the extremes, that doesn't mean we don't try to find alternative ways and improve on the way we deal with issues
On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 19:10, Yaroslav Blanter ymbalt@gmail.com wrote:
In addition, (English Wikipedia) ANI can reasonably well deal with one or several highly problematic diffs, but very often we have a long pattern which can result in a long series of diffs, so that each one is unproblematic or slightly problematic, but all together thay may constitute a harassment pattern and make the victim feel very unpleasant. ANI is absolutely not capable of dealing with this situation, and usually ArbCom can not handle it either. In my situation, I overreacted a couple of times, and then every time I would try to raise the question at best it would be called "keeping old grudges" and I was advised to "grow thick skin", but more often that it was told it was my fault and in fact it was harassment from my side. ArbCom was not capable of performing any better. To be honest, I do not see how T&S can perform better either. An investigation of such situation would require wading through thousands of diffs and reconstructing the whole episodes, and I just do not see how this can be done.
Best Yaroslav
On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 12:57 PM Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
The whole purpose of harassing someone is to put them under pressure, to make the victim upset and force them away from editing. Creating a clear list of problematic diffs and an unbiased, unemotional recounting of events is impossible during the incident, when all thats desired is to have the immediate abuse stopped. Emotive language is a call for help, seasoned abusers know how to play the game AN/I and the community knows them so
when
they boo the community accepts their version. At AN/I and as Vermont explain its the victim that has to be restrain their language, its the victim that has to be calm, its the victim that has to clearly lay out
all
the diffs, its the victim that has to recount/relive the whole of the abuse. The victim is not at fault but until the system supports the
victim
the problems of in grained abuse and hostility by old hands is going to remain.
On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 17:51, Chris Gates via Wikimedia-l < wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
I see.
The English Wikipedia, and most projects in general (from my
experience),
are not perfect at handling problems with established editors.
This is to be expected. However, there’s some element of draconian
secret
policing present in having a brigade of T&S employees handling any and
all
conduct issues. We ha e local communities, and in most cases they are successful in handling issues, but when an editor’s social clout is involved, and/or when there’s incivility/harassment from multiple
parties,
it quickly becomes a larger issue that often ends with little to no
action.
With this issue specifically, it’s minor and local community functions would very likely have been able to manage it properly had the
discussions
continued. The formation of the messages also help determine the
outcome; a
message saying they were told to report there with no links but one to
the
editor’s userpage is not very helpful for people viewing it. A list of problematic diffs and an unbiased, unemotional recounting of events is quite helpful for those viewing it. The latter is much likely to result successfully than the former.
Also, T&S actions are not quick and easy either. Their investigations
are
usually quite extensive and take equally extensive periods of time. Communities act quicker, and though the volunteers may be affected more
by
personal prejudice than employees of the WMF, we are a collaborative project that relies on community input.
Hopefully the UCoC is successful with setting reasonable definitions
and
expectations for community enforcement of conduct policies, though in
my
view larger projects are not the most pressing issue to be addressed by
the
UCoC. This instance of sexual harassment is minor when viewed in perspective. It’s clearly uncivil and a problem, and we don’t know how
the
ANI section would have ended up if continued (though I would have
supported
a strong warning and block if it continued, perhaps an IBAN), but it
could
have been handled locally. Take a look at most projects with under 30 admins. Small community, usually tightly knit, with entrenched
hierarchies
of social clout. Those projects are where extreme incivility, blatant bigotry, and clearly biased administrative actions occur most often.
Not
to
mention non-harassment/incivility issues like copyright violations, backwards policies, and historical revisionism, completely ignored by
local
administrators, which hopefully at some point can be mitigated as well.
Regarding Fæ’s email, it would be interesting and useful to see a study
on
boomerangs at ANI. It does seem prevalent for newer editors,
experiencing
biting from more established editors, to be unable to seek
rectification
for the more established editor’s conduct. It is unfortunately also
common
that, when incivility exists, some of it is present on both sides,
making
these issues much less clear-cut and dramatically increasing the potentiality for a boomerang.
Best, Vermont
On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 15:40 William Chan william@wchan.hk wrote:
Why the harassed normally email T&S but not seeking local help:
Sometimes some kinds of harassment against a person or a group is an orchestrated attempt driven by off-wiki matters. Considering the "importance" of Wikipedia and it's sister projects, and the
fundamentally
huge size of the movement, it seemed mostly unnoticeable in some
cases.
These kinds of planned harassment (not only sexual harassment but all
forms
of harassment) would not normally be observed in large languages used
by
different nations because the sheer size of the user base diluted
their
attempts.
However, if language becomes national and got very limited outside
use
apart from the country they are from (i.e. Japanese in Japan, or
Korean
in
Korea,etc. Not saying they have a serious sexual harassment problem,
just
an example), harassment against the minority may appear in all forms, including but not limited to blocking them from any administrative
posts,
to sexual harassments to an outright ban of some individuals. In this
case,
local bodies which deal with harassing would be normally held by
those
who
are, or show sympathy to the harasser, and that is the problem.
Local governance (last stand) bodies are usually opaque in nature -
the
elections to those bodies are normally fair, but it is not
transparent
enough of what they do just because they are volunteer.
Those very large communities normally have a (relatively) inefficient
speed
to deal with issues because of the number of problems they receive. The irony is that, for the smaller communities is, the abuser would
have
some connection with the last-stand bodies, that would mean conflict
of
interest - though with much irony, COI is not observed when they are playing Wikipolitics.
This means, you either get a local "slow safe soace" because they
receive
too many case to review per day, or an "unsafe safe space" because harassers know those who deal with these reports.
You either get a language that is too big and inefficient to treat
reports,
or languages that, because of the size, they harasser may just
outright
know the ones who deal with these problems. That's why T&S needs way
more
people.
And not all languages have self-governing bodies.
P.S. Written by someone who had emailed T&S about harassments against himself. One harasser got a conduct warning while the other one got foundation-blocked.
On Mon, Aug 24, 2020, 22:54 Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
For a person to report harassment they must first feel safe to do
so.
Not
everyone is capable of dealing with or participating in a public
debate
about whether they have been harassed, there is a significant
difference
between arguing facts on a topic and dealing with harassment and
offensive
comments directed at you. Its a very effective method of ensuring
that
you
can keep control of subject areas, or part of Wikipedia. What is
going
unnoticed, unrecorded and never dealt with is the same people make
personal
attacks and harass contributors repeatedly, many of these people
are
protected by other at AN/I or large followings that ensure they are
almost
untouchable.
Just like this thread dismissing problems when they are raised is unhelpful, and has a chilling effect on productive outcomes. The
lack
of
alternative safe ways to address issues has been a problem for many
years
driving away 1,000s of good contributors.
On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 21:47, Chris Gates via Wikimedia-l < wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
I fail to understand how requiring public report of
publicly-occurring
harassment is a problem.
If people are being harassed constantly via off-wiki
communication,
emailing a local admin team or T&S is definitely the best thing
to
do
if
they don’t want to make it public in an on-wiki report.
However, if it’s on-wiki, I don’t see any viable reason as to why
it
should
not be reported on-wiki as well. By no means is it “doubling
down”
on
harassment; that doesn’t even make much sense considering that it
isn’t
the
collective community making the harassment, it’s an individual.
It
also
doesn’t matter at all what the harasser feels like either; if
they’re
blocked after a civilly-written and clear-cut report on ANI it
doesn’t
matter what they think. It’s not acceptable to have a secret
police
team
to
handle every content issue; community input exists for a reason,
especially
on collaborative projects like this.
Further, when did anyone say the community is not willing to
handle
harassment issues? It truly bothers me to see people write
nonsense
like
this.
I will restate:
Local communities appoint administrators to enforce consensus.
There
is
consensus that harassment should be responded to with warnings
and,
if
repeated or severe, blocks.
These administrators usually have a mailing list and an on-wiki noticeboard. These noticeboards are open for anyone to create
sections
on,
and unless a request was clearly made in bad faith or
intentionally
misled
readers, there is practically no chance of successful retaliatory
action
on
the part of the individual who created the harassment.
In this case, a section was made on ANI, multiple editors
commented,
and
for some reason the section was removed mid-discussion. It is to
be
expected that someone with an independent viewpoint would seek
less
radical
action than someone directly a party of the dispute. In this
case,
there
was incivility and arguable harassment coming from both parties,
though
clearly “cutie” is not conducive to the desired contributory
environment.
Simple conduct cases are not the sort of issue for T&S. Let them
(and
often
stewards) handle the threats to life, the vandals trying to find
where
editors live, the IPs making terrorist threats, the new accounts
uploading
child pornography, the vandals spreading the private details of
editors,
etc. Basic conduct issues can be handled by local administrators.
And for the “chilling effect” of reporting issues like this
publicly,
if
someone is incapable of seeing other people interpret events
another
way,
disagreeing with them, or not wanting as drastic and immediate
action,
they
may not be suited for a collaborative project.
There are easy ways to handle people who are clearly harassing
you
on-wiki:
- Ask them to stop. If they refuse,
- Create a section on ANI giving a short, simple, and unbiased
explanation
of the issue with diffs. 3) Wait for editors and admins to comment. If the community
believes
it’s
problematic enough to warrant action, action will be taken. If no
and
the
harassment continues continues, 4) Most projects have other methods of handling issues like this.
Enwiki
has ArbCom for this, simplewiki has community sanction
discussions,
other
projects have other methods.
At no point would removing the ANI report mid-discussion be
helpful.
And
doing so then claiming that it’s the community’s fault is clearly incorrect.
Regards, Vermont
On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 01:46 Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com
wrote:
> > > > The code of conduct is not a law. People who are harassers
are
criminals > > and not above the law. Sexual harassment is a serious
offense.
Any
kind
> > of harrasment is an offense. Wikipedia s administrators are
not
the
law
> > and not above the law. > > Wikipedia is not above the law. > > > The international aspects and the fact that WMF protects
editors
privacy
> makes options outside the movement very limited to only the
extreme
end
of > the scale. Beside the legal aspect its a cop out for the
Community
&
WMF
to > dismiss any harassment as something they cant do anything
about,
this
> response is why AN/I is also a waste of time and why so much
harassment
> never gets dealt with, ultimately why the movement has
difficulty
in
> attracting under represented groups > > On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 13:14, Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής < > anonymuswikipedian@gmail.com> wrote: > > > The code of conduct is not a law. > > People who are harassers are criminals and not above the law. > > Sexual harassment is a serious offense. Any kind of
harrasment
is
an
> > offense. Wikipedia s administrators are not the law and not
above
the
> law. > > Wikipedia is not above the law. > > People who seek help should be appointed to the right
specialized
> > authorities as the police and not discouraged to do so. > > > > Safety team from my experience, will not help any
wikipedian/victim
who
> > with report a harrasment case. They are just another
department
of
> > wikimedia foundation. > > > > Any people is important and count. > > Please take what ever actions you think is necessary. > > > > I believe you. > > > > Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής > > > > > > Στις Δευ, 24 Αυγ 2020, 7:39 π.μ. ο χρήστης Robert Myers < > > robert.myers@wikimedia.org.au> έγραψε: > > > > > And there the problem lies, going to local authorities
(police)
isn’t
> > > going to be useful. Some authorities require the alleged
crime
to
be
> > > committed in their jurisdiction, which can be limited,
anonymous
nature > > of > > > the person who committed the alleged crime makes it
difficult
to
> identify > > > the individual(s), with it servers hosted outside the
jurisdiction
make > > it > > > harder to investigate. Also I have seen in the past,
WP:LEGAL
used
> > against > > > those who have reported threats of physical violence or
harassment
> > > (physical stalking) to law enforcement. > > > > > > I do think there needs to be a off-wiki complaint process
for
serious
> > > allegations, since on-wiki processes can be inappropriate
and
acts
as a > > > chilling effect (since it is very open and public) on the
victim(s).
> The > > > same situation can occur for alleged perpetrator(s), where
the
> > > allegation(s) are false or vexatious and malicious
grievances.
> > > > > > Maybe the Universal Code of Conduct might address this
issue,
it
might > > not > > > as well. > > > > > > -- > > > Robert Myers > > > robert.myers@wikimedia.org.au > > > http://www.wikimedia.org.au > > > > > > > On 24 Aug 2020, at 1:37 pm, Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής < > > > anonymuswikipedian@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > If you ve been sexually harassed in wikipedia this is
not
a
matter
> to > > be > > > > solved on a mailing list or by Safety team. Go to you
local
> authorities > > > and > > > > report it. This is a very serious matter to just become
an
essay
for > > > > someone or belive that it can be solved by administrators
or
safety
> > team. > > > > Safety team in my harassment case told me to "politely"
ask
my
> > harrasers > > > to > > > > stop harassing me. Please don t relay on them for such a
serious
> > matter! > > > > Please be safe and I m sure you can seek help by trained
and
serious > > > people > > > > by your local authorities. > > > > I wish someone could told me that in my case then and not
point
me
to > > > > safety team. They will not help you. > > > > > > > > Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής > > > > > > > > > > > > Στις Δευ, 24 Αυγ 2020, 3:41 π.μ. ο χρήστης Gnangarra < > > > gnangarra@gmail.com> > > > > έγραψε: > > > > > > > >> If someone feels harassed then a public noticeboard is
the
last
> place > > to > > > >> send them for help, that is an absolute failure of the
community
to > > > >> understand that the act of reporting is also doubling
down
on
the
> > harm. > > > >> Doing so publicly is indicating to the person committing
the
> > harassment > > > >> that they have succeeded in causing harm. > > > >> > > > >> This folks is the very reason why we fail to retain
editors
and
> breach > > > the > > > >> imbalance of editors and continue have trouble with
bias.
Everyone > > > speaks > > > >> english but the cultural nuances of the language vary
greatly
with
> > words > > > >> having multiple meanings and being used specifically to
cause
> offense. > > > >> > > > >> The word cutie has its meanings; > > > >> > > > >> - of being nice looking when talking about kids and
animals
> > > >> > > > >> but once its used referring to an adult as part of a
discussion
its > > > changes > > > >> to that of them being; > > > >> > > > >> - of being an arsehole > > > >> - of being picky > > > >> - and of having sexual connotations ranging from you
are
fuckable, > > to > > > >> your sexual orientation. > > > >> > > > >> When these complaints get to something like AN/I those
cultural
and > > > >> linguistic nuances get dismissed and the person using
them
has
> gained > > a > > > lot > > > >> of power, self satisfaction, and endorsement of their
harassment
as > > > being > > > >> ok, with a bonus that other users are now also enabled
to
harass
the > > > >> complaining editor knowing full well that AN/I will do
nothing.
> > > >> > > > >> The bottom line is if a person feels harassed they have
been
> harassed, > > > >> whether we understand the depth of why they feel
harassed
is
not
> > > relevant > > > >> but that should not be a barrier to prevent further
harassment.
> > > >> > > > >> > > > >>> On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 06:21, Isaac Olatunde < > > reachout2isaac@gmail.com > > > > > > > >>> wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> Hello Chris, > > > >>> > > > >>> This isn't a terribly bad advise, AFAICS. > > > >>> > > > >>> Harassments are treated on a case-by-case basis. > > > >>> > > > >>> So, if this is something you aren't comfortable
discussing
> publicly, > > > you > > > >>> could email the Functionary team or ArbCom or similar
body
in
that > > > >>> community. > > > >>> > > > >>> If it's something that should be removed from public
view,
you
> could > > > >>> contact the oversight team. > > > >>> > > > >>> I can't see the contents of the harassment, so I can
only
speak
> based > > > on > > > >>> general principle. > > > >>> > > > >>> Regards > > > >>> > > > >>> Isaac > > > >>> > > > >>> On Sun, 23 Aug 2020, 23:07 Chris Sherlock, < > > chris.sherlock79@gmail.com > > > > > > > >>> wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>>> To be clear, this is what I was advised: > > > >>>> > > > >>>> “ Harassment concerns can be reviewed under the
appropriate
> > community > > > >>>> process. I would therefore advise you to report the
edit
summary
> to > > > the > > > >>>> appropriate channels on the wiki it occured. If this
happened
on
> > > >> English > > > >>>> Wikipedia, this would be the Administrator's board for incidents. > > > >>>> I hope the above is helpful.” > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Chris > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Sent from my iPhone > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> On 24 Aug 2020, at 6:43 am, Chris Sherlock < > > > >> chris.sherlock79@gmail.com > > > >>>> > > > >>>> wrote: > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Hello all, > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is
concerned
about > > > >> being > > > >>>> sexually harassed they must report this to AN/I and
there
are
no
> > > >> private > > > >>>> mechanisms to report this sort of thing. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Is this for real? > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Chris Sherlock > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Sent from my iPhone > > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > > >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > >>>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
and
> > > >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > >>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > >>>> Unsubscribe: > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > > > , > > > >>>> mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org > ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > >>>> > > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > > >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > >>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
and
> > > >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > >>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > >>> Unsubscribe: > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > >>> mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> -- > > > >> GN. > > > >> > > > >> *Power of Diverse Collaboration* > > > >> *Sharing knowledge brings people together* > > > >> Wikimania Bangkok 2021 > > > >> August > > > >> hosted by ESEAP > > > >> > > > >> Wikimania:
https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> > > >> Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page > > > >> My print shop: > https://www.redbubble.com/people/Gnangarra/shop?asc=u > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > >>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
and
> > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > >> Unsubscribe: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > > , > > > >> mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
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https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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> > > > > -- > GN. > > *Power of Diverse Collaboration* > *Sharing knowledge brings people together* > Wikimania Bangkok 2021 > August > hosted by ESEAP > > Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra > Noongarpedia:
https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page
> My print shop:
https://www.redbubble.com/people/Gnangarra/shop?asc=u
> _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe:
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-- GN.
*Power of Diverse Collaboration* *Sharing knowledge brings people together* Wikimania Bangkok 2021 August hosted by ESEAP
Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra Noongarpedia:
https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page
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The fact that this problem exists in nearly anywhere is true, from biases to harasses. The problem is whether or not one actively face it, and if there are any way that is efficient, secure and unbiased way to treat those problems without undermining the trust mechanism of volunteers.
And all the work should not be bore on the reporter.
Hatred towards other communities is not uncommonly seen, even in Wikipedia communities, and this is particularly true when it comes to politics. The problem of harassments, sexual or not, should be treated in a manner where most editors can observe how it is dealt (e.g. keeping a Standard Operating Procedure Manual on handling complaints, much like foundation transparency reports on government requests) but case contents keep secret, and only members of the community that are legally-recognized by the WMF should be allowed in dealing with cases like that, and, in particular, a stipend should be given to their work considering the exhaustive nature.
On Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 20:09 Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
Yaroslav is right it is difficult to wade through every minor diff to see a pattern and AN/I is incapable of reacting to anything but the extremes, that doesn't mean we don't try to find alternative ways and improve on the way we deal with issues
On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 19:10, Yaroslav Blanter ymbalt@gmail.com wrote:
In addition, (English Wikipedia) ANI can reasonably well deal with one or several highly problematic diffs, but very often we have a long pattern which can result in a long series of diffs, so that each one is unproblematic or slightly problematic, but all together thay may
constitute
a harassment pattern and make the victim feel very unpleasant. ANI is absolutely not capable of dealing with this situation, and usually ArbCom can not handle it either. In my situation, I overreacted a couple of
times,
and then every time I would try to raise the question at best it would be called "keeping old grudges" and I was advised to "grow thick skin", but more often that it was told it was my fault and in fact it was harassment from my side. ArbCom was not capable of performing any better. To be honest, I do not see how T&S can perform better either. An investigation
of
such situation would require wading through thousands of diffs and reconstructing the whole episodes, and I just do not see how this can be done.
Best Yaroslav
On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 12:57 PM Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
The whole purpose of harassing someone is to put them under pressure,
to
make the victim upset and force them away from editing. Creating a
clear
list of problematic diffs and an unbiased, unemotional recounting of events
is
impossible during the incident, when all thats desired is to have the immediate abuse stopped. Emotive language is a call for help, seasoned abusers know how to play the game AN/I and the community knows them so
when
they boo the community accepts their version. At AN/I and as Vermont explain its the victim that has to be restrain their language, its the victim that has to be calm, its the victim that has to clearly lay out
all
the diffs, its the victim that has to recount/relive the whole of the abuse. The victim is not at fault but until the system supports the
victim
the problems of in grained abuse and hostility by old hands is going to remain.
On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 17:51, Chris Gates via Wikimedia-l < wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
I see.
The English Wikipedia, and most projects in general (from my
experience),
are not perfect at handling problems with established editors.
This is to be expected. However, there’s some element of draconian
secret
policing present in having a brigade of T&S employees handling any
and
all
conduct issues. We ha e local communities, and in most cases they are successful in handling issues, but when an editor’s social clout is involved, and/or when there’s incivility/harassment from multiple
parties,
it quickly becomes a larger issue that often ends with little to no
action.
With this issue specifically, it’s minor and local community
functions
would very likely have been able to manage it properly had the
discussions
continued. The formation of the messages also help determine the
outcome; a
message saying they were told to report there with no links but one
to
the
editor’s userpage is not very helpful for people viewing it. A list
of
problematic diffs and an unbiased, unemotional recounting of events
is
quite helpful for those viewing it. The latter is much likely to
result
successfully than the former.
Also, T&S actions are not quick and easy either. Their investigations
are
usually quite extensive and take equally extensive periods of time. Communities act quicker, and though the volunteers may be affected
more
by
personal prejudice than employees of the WMF, we are a collaborative project that relies on community input.
Hopefully the UCoC is successful with setting reasonable definitions
and
expectations for community enforcement of conduct policies, though in
my
view larger projects are not the most pressing issue to be addressed
by
the
UCoC. This instance of sexual harassment is minor when viewed in perspective. It’s clearly uncivil and a problem, and we don’t know
how
the
ANI section would have ended up if continued (though I would have
supported
a strong warning and block if it continued, perhaps an IBAN), but it
could
have been handled locally. Take a look at most projects with under 30 admins. Small community, usually tightly knit, with entrenched
hierarchies
of social clout. Those projects are where extreme incivility, blatant bigotry, and clearly biased administrative actions occur most often.
Not
to
mention non-harassment/incivility issues like copyright violations, backwards policies, and historical revisionism, completely ignored by
local
administrators, which hopefully at some point can be mitigated as
well.
Regarding Fæ’s email, it would be interesting and useful to see a
study
on
boomerangs at ANI. It does seem prevalent for newer editors,
experiencing
biting from more established editors, to be unable to seek
rectification
for the more established editor’s conduct. It is unfortunately also
common
that, when incivility exists, some of it is present on both sides,
making
these issues much less clear-cut and dramatically increasing the potentiality for a boomerang.
Best, Vermont
On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 15:40 William Chan william@wchan.hk wrote:
Why the harassed normally email T&S but not seeking local help:
Sometimes some kinds of harassment against a person or a group is
an
orchestrated attempt driven by off-wiki matters. Considering the "importance" of Wikipedia and it's sister projects, and the
fundamentally
huge size of the movement, it seemed mostly unnoticeable in some
cases.
These kinds of planned harassment (not only sexual harassment but
all
forms
of harassment) would not normally be observed in large languages
used
by
different nations because the sheer size of the user base diluted
their
attempts.
However, if language becomes national and got very limited outside
use
apart from the country they are from (i.e. Japanese in Japan, or
Korean
in
Korea,etc. Not saying they have a serious sexual harassment
problem,
just
an example), harassment against the minority may appear in all
forms,
including but not limited to blocking them from any administrative
posts,
to sexual harassments to an outright ban of some individuals. In
this
case,
local bodies which deal with harassing would be normally held by
those
who
are, or show sympathy to the harasser, and that is the problem.
Local governance (last stand) bodies are usually opaque in nature -
the
elections to those bodies are normally fair, but it is not
transparent
enough of what they do just because they are volunteer.
Those very large communities normally have a (relatively)
inefficient
speed
to deal with issues because of the number of problems they receive. The irony is that, for the smaller communities is, the abuser would
have
some connection with the last-stand bodies, that would mean
conflict
of
interest - though with much irony, COI is not observed when they
are
playing Wikipolitics.
This means, you either get a local "slow safe soace" because they
receive
too many case to review per day, or an "unsafe safe space" because harassers know those who deal with these reports.
You either get a language that is too big and inefficient to treat
reports,
or languages that, because of the size, they harasser may just
outright
know the ones who deal with these problems. That's why T&S needs
way
more
people.
And not all languages have self-governing bodies.
P.S. Written by someone who had emailed T&S about harassments
against
himself. One harasser got a conduct warning while the other one got foundation-blocked.
On Mon, Aug 24, 2020, 22:54 Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
For a person to report harassment they must first feel safe to
do
so.
Not
everyone is capable of dealing with or participating in a public
debate
about whether they have been harassed, there is a significant
difference
between arguing facts on a topic and dealing with harassment and
offensive
comments directed at you. Its a very effective method of
ensuring
that
you
can keep control of subject areas, or part of Wikipedia. What is
going
unnoticed, unrecorded and never dealt with is the same people
make
personal
attacks and harass contributors repeatedly, many of these people
are
protected by other at AN/I or large followings that ensure they
are
almost
untouchable.
Just like this thread dismissing problems when they are raised is unhelpful, and has a chilling effect on productive outcomes.
The
lack
of
alternative safe ways to address issues has been a problem for
many
years
driving away 1,000s of good contributors.
On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 21:47, Chris Gates via Wikimedia-l < wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
> I fail to understand how requiring public report of
publicly-occurring
> harassment is a problem. > > If people are being harassed constantly via off-wiki
communication,
> emailing a local admin team or T&S is definitely the best thing
to
do
if
> they don’t want to make it public in an on-wiki report. > > However, if it’s on-wiki, I don’t see any viable reason as to
why
it
should > not be reported on-wiki as well. By no means is it “doubling
down”
on
> harassment; that doesn’t even make much sense considering that
it
isn’t
the > collective community making the harassment, it’s an individual.
It
also
> doesn’t matter at all what the harasser feels like either; if
they’re
> blocked after a civilly-written and clear-cut report on ANI it
doesn’t
> matter what they think. It’s not acceptable to have a secret
police
team
to > handle every content issue; community input exists for a
reason,
especially > on collaborative projects like this. > > Further, when did anyone say the community is not willing to
handle
> harassment issues? It truly bothers me to see people write
nonsense
like
> this. > > I will restate: > > Local communities appoint administrators to enforce consensus.
There
is
> consensus that harassment should be responded to with warnings
and,
if
> repeated or severe, blocks. > > These administrators usually have a mailing list and an on-wiki > noticeboard. These noticeboards are open for anyone to create
sections
on, > and unless a request was clearly made in bad faith or
intentionally
misled > readers, there is practically no chance of successful
retaliatory
action
on > the part of the individual who created the harassment. > > In this case, a section was made on ANI, multiple editors
commented,
and
> for some reason the section was removed mid-discussion. It is
to
be
> expected that someone with an independent viewpoint would seek
less
radical > action than someone directly a party of the dispute. In this
case,
there
> was incivility and arguable harassment coming from both
parties,
though
> clearly “cutie” is not conducive to the desired contributory
environment.
> > Simple conduct cases are not the sort of issue for T&S. Let
them
(and
often > stewards) handle the threats to life, the vandals trying to
find
where
> editors live, the IPs making terrorist threats, the new
accounts
uploading > child pornography, the vandals spreading the private details of
editors,
> etc. Basic conduct issues can be handled by local
administrators.
> > And for the “chilling effect” of reporting issues like this
publicly,
if
> someone is incapable of seeing other people interpret events
another
way,
> disagreeing with them, or not wanting as drastic and immediate
action,
they > may not be suited for a collaborative project. > > There are easy ways to handle people who are clearly harassing
you
on-wiki: > 1) Ask them to stop. If they refuse, > 2) Create a section on ANI giving a short, simple, and unbiased explanation > of the issue with diffs. > 3) Wait for editors and admins to comment. If the community
believes
it’s
> problematic enough to warrant action, action will be taken. If
no
and
the
> harassment continues continues, > 4) Most projects have other methods of handling issues like
this.
Enwiki
> has ArbCom for this, simplewiki has community sanction
discussions,
other
> projects have other methods. > > At no point would removing the ANI report mid-discussion be
helpful.
And
> doing so then claiming that it’s the community’s fault is
clearly
> incorrect. > > Regards, > Vermont > > > > On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 01:46 Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com
wrote:
> > > > > > > The code of conduct is not a law. People who are harassers
are
> criminals > > > and not above the law. Sexual harassment is a serious
offense.
Any
kind > > > of harrasment is an offense. Wikipedia s administrators are
not
the
law > > > and not above the law. > > > > Wikipedia is not above the law. > > > > > > The international aspects and the fact that WMF protects
editors
privacy > > makes options outside the movement very limited to only the
extreme
end
> of > > the scale. Beside the legal aspect its a cop out for the
Community
&
WMF > to > > dismiss any harassment as something they cant do anything
about,
this
> > response is why AN/I is also a waste of time and why so much
harassment
> > never gets dealt with, ultimately why the movement has
difficulty
in
> > attracting under represented groups > > > > On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 13:14, Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής < > > anonymuswikipedian@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > The code of conduct is not a law. > > > People who are harassers are criminals and not above the
law.
> > > Sexual harassment is a serious offense. Any kind of
harrasment
is
an
> > > offense. Wikipedia s administrators are not the law and not
above
the
> > law. > > > Wikipedia is not above the law. > > > People who seek help should be appointed to the right
specialized
> > > authorities as the police and not discouraged to do so. > > > > > > Safety team from my experience, will not help any
wikipedian/victim
who > > > with report a harrasment case. They are just another
department
of
> > > wikimedia foundation. > > > > > > Any people is important and count. > > > Please take what ever actions you think is necessary. > > > > > > I believe you. > > > > > > Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής > > > > > > > > > Στις Δευ, 24 Αυγ 2020, 7:39 π.μ. ο χρήστης Robert Myers < > > > robert.myers@wikimedia.org.au> έγραψε: > > > > > > > And there the problem lies, going to local authorities
(police)
isn’t > > > > going to be useful. Some authorities require the alleged
crime
to
be > > > > committed in their jurisdiction, which can be limited,
anonymous
> nature > > > of > > > > the person who committed the alleged crime makes it
difficult
to
> > identify > > > > the individual(s), with it servers hosted outside the
jurisdiction
> make > > > it > > > > harder to investigate. Also I have seen in the past,
WP:LEGAL
used
> > > against > > > > those who have reported threats of physical violence or
harassment
> > > > (physical stalking) to law enforcement. > > > > > > > > I do think there needs to be a off-wiki complaint process
for
serious > > > > allegations, since on-wiki processes can be inappropriate
and
acts
> as a > > > > chilling effect (since it is very open and public) on the victim(s). > > The > > > > same situation can occur for alleged perpetrator(s),
where
the
> > > > allegation(s) are false or vexatious and malicious
grievances.
> > > > > > > > Maybe the Universal Code of Conduct might address this
issue,
it
> might > > > not > > > > as well. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Robert Myers > > > > robert.myers@wikimedia.org.au > > > > http://www.wikimedia.org.au > > > > > > > > > On 24 Aug 2020, at 1:37 pm, Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής < > > > > anonymuswikipedian@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > If you ve been sexually harassed in wikipedia this is
not
a
matter > > to > > > be > > > > > solved on a mailing list or by Safety team. Go to you
local
> > authorities > > > > and > > > > > report it. This is a very serious matter to just become
an
essay
> for > > > > > someone or belive that it can be solved by
administrators
or
safety > > > team. > > > > > Safety team in my harassment case told me to "politely"
ask
my
> > > harrasers > > > > to > > > > > stop harassing me. Please don t relay on them for such
a
serious
> > > matter! > > > > > Please be safe and I m sure you can seek help by
trained
and
> serious > > > > people > > > > > by your local authorities. > > > > > I wish someone could told me that in my case then and
not
point
me > to > > > > > safety team. They will not help you. > > > > > > > > > > Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Στις Δευ, 24 Αυγ 2020, 3:41 π.μ. ο χρήστης Gnangarra < > > > > gnangarra@gmail.com> > > > > > έγραψε: > > > > > > > > > >> If someone feels harassed then a public noticeboard is
the
last
> > place > > > to > > > > >> send them for help, that is an absolute failure of
the
community > to > > > > >> understand that the act of reporting is also doubling
down
on
the > > > harm. > > > > >> Doing so publicly is indicating to the person
committing
the
> > > harassment > > > > >> that they have succeeded in causing harm. > > > > >> > > > > >> This folks is the very reason why we fail to retain
editors
and
> > breach > > > > the > > > > >> imbalance of editors and continue have trouble with
bias.
> Everyone > > > > speaks > > > > >> english but the cultural nuances of the language vary
greatly
with > > > words > > > > >> having multiple meanings and being used specifically
to
cause
> > offense. > > > > >> > > > > >> The word cutie has its meanings; > > > > >> > > > > >> - of being nice looking when talking about kids and
animals
> > > > >> > > > > >> but once its used referring to an adult as part of a
discussion
> its > > > > changes > > > > >> to that of them being; > > > > >> > > > > >> - of being an arsehole > > > > >> - of being picky > > > > >> - and of having sexual connotations ranging from you
are
> fuckable, > > > to > > > > >> your sexual orientation. > > > > >> > > > > >> When these complaints get to something like AN/I those
cultural
> and > > > > >> linguistic nuances get dismissed and the person using
them
has
> > gained > > > a > > > > lot > > > > >> of power, self satisfaction, and endorsement of their
harassment
> as > > > > being > > > > >> ok, with a bonus that other users are now also enabled
to
harass
> the > > > > >> complaining editor knowing full well that AN/I will do
nothing.
> > > > >> > > > > >> The bottom line is if a person feels harassed they
have
been
> > harassed, > > > > >> whether we understand the depth of why they feel
harassed
is
not
> > > > relevant > > > > >> but that should not be a barrier to prevent further
harassment.
> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >>> On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 06:21, Isaac Olatunde < > > > reachout2isaac@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > >>> wrote: > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Hello Chris, > > > > >>> > > > > >>> This isn't a terribly bad advise, AFAICS. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Harassments are treated on a case-by-case basis. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> So, if this is something you aren't comfortable
discussing
> > publicly, > > > > you > > > > >>> could email the Functionary team or ArbCom or similar
body
in
> that > > > > >>> community. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> If it's something that should be removed from public
view,
you
> > could > > > > >>> contact the oversight team. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> I can't see the contents of the harassment, so I can
only
speak
> > based > > > > on > > > > >>> general principle. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Regards > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Isaac > > > > >>> > > > > >>> On Sun, 23 Aug 2020, 23:07 Chris Sherlock, < > > > chris.sherlock79@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > >>> wrote: > > > > >>> > > > > >>>> To be clear, this is what I was advised: > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> “ Harassment concerns can be reviewed under the
appropriate
> > > community > > > > >>>> process. I would therefore advise you to report the
edit
summary > > to > > > > the > > > > >>>> appropriate channels on the wiki it occured. If this
happened
on > > > > >> English > > > > >>>> Wikipedia, this would be the Administrator's board
for
> incidents. > > > > >>>> I hope the above is helpful.” > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> Chris > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> Sent from my iPhone > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>>> On 24 Aug 2020, at 6:43 am, Chris Sherlock < > > > > >> chris.sherlock79@gmail.com > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> wrote: > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> Hello all, > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is
concerned
> about > > > > >> being > > > > >>>> sexually harassed they must report this to AN/I and
there
are
no > > > > >> private > > > > >>>> mechanisms to report this sort of thing. > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> Is this for real? > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> Chris Sherlock > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> Sent from my iPhone > > > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > > > >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > >>>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
and
> > > > >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > >>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > >>>> Unsubscribe: > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > > > > , > > > > >>>> mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org > > ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > > > >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > >>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
and
> > > > >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > >>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > >>> Unsubscribe: > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > >>> mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org > ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > >>> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> -- > > > > >> GN. > > > > >> > > > > >> *Power of Diverse Collaboration* > > > > >> *Sharing knowledge brings people together* > > > > >> Wikimania Bangkok 2021 > > > > >> August > > > > >> hosted by ESEAP > > > > >> > > > > >> Wikimania:
https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> > > > >> Noongarpedia: > https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page > > > > >> My print shop: > > https://www.redbubble.com/people/Gnangarra/shop?asc=u > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > >>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
and
> > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > >> Unsubscribe: > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > > > , > > > > >> mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org > ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > Unsubscribe: > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org ?subject=unsubscribe > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > Unsubscribe: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org ?subject=unsubscribe > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > > > -- > > GN. > > > > *Power of Diverse Collaboration* > > *Sharing knowledge brings people together* > > Wikimania Bangkok 2021 > > August > > hosted by ESEAP > > > > Wikimania:
https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> > Noongarpedia:
https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page
> > My print shop:
https://www.redbubble.com/people/Gnangarra/shop?asc=u
> > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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?subject=unsubscribe>
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https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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>
-- GN.
*Power of Diverse Collaboration* *Sharing knowledge brings people together* Wikimania Bangkok 2021 August hosted by ESEAP
Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra Noongarpedia:
https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page
My print shop:
https://www.redbubble.com/people/Gnangarra/shop?asc=u
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*Power of Diverse Collaboration* *Sharing knowledge brings people together* Wikimania Bangkok 2021 August hosted by ESEAP
Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page My print shop: https://www.redbubble.com/people/Gnangarra/shop?asc=u _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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-- GN.
*Power of Diverse Collaboration* *Sharing knowledge brings people together* Wikimania Bangkok 2021 August hosted by ESEAP
Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page My print shop: https://www.redbubble.com/people/Gnangarra/shop?asc=u _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 14:08, Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
that doesn't mean we don't try to find alternative ways and improve on the way we deal with issues
Having observed and researched the working of ANI it became apparent to me that the unstructured nature of the discussions there allows for great fluctuations in what selection of opinions and interests are represented in each discussion. As the outcome of discussions is mostly steered by the number of editors supporting any resolution, it's easy to drown out individual views, even if that's the closest to the truth. A more structured format that would limit statements and present them equally - similar to ArbCom's - would ensure more protection from steering discussions towards a non-neutral outcome based on popularity. Previously in the discussions about the User reporting system I've drafted ( ref https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Community_health_initiative/User_reporting_system_consultation_2019#Factual,_evidence_based_reporting_tool_-_draft,_proposal) how a tool that ensures this format would work. I believe that approach would limit how "dramatic" a dispute can become.
Aron
On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 14:47, Chris Gates via Wikimedia-l wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org wrote:
I fail to understand how requiring public report of publicly-occurring harassment is a problem.
"Don't be a cunt" "Fuck off" "Stop being hysterical" + Far worse actually gets tolerated, and I'm not quoting any here, you work out why
Anyone feeling they are targeted or harassed with unpleasant personal comments, especially newer editors, would be INCREDIBLY STUPID to attempt to complain about it on Wikipedia's ANI. It will boomerang, and the history of that noticeboard shows that the complainant is likely to be treated as a troublemaker by the admin corps, with a high probability of reasons being found to sanction the troublemaker if they try to answer questions in public.
There's plenty of "unfriendly space" to create a hostile environment without crossing the boundaries of "free speech" tolerated for long term contributors, but not newcomers.
My good advice to newer editors is always to discuss bad faith and nasty aggressive behaviour off-wiki, as it's just not safe to do so on-wiki, unless you are anonymous and happy to throw away your account. These behaviours are normal, expected, and even championed from the top as refreshing expressions of libertarianism.[1]
1. "utter fucking bullshit" https://www.theregister.com/2016/01/27/trust_me_pleads_wikipedia_former_goog...
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