Yaroslav is right it is difficult to wade through every minor diff to see a pattern and AN/I is incapable of reacting to anything but the extremes, that doesn't mean we don't try to find alternative ways and improve on the way we deal with issues
On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 19:10, Yaroslav Blanter ymbalt@gmail.com wrote:
In addition, (English Wikipedia) ANI can reasonably well deal with one or several highly problematic diffs, but very often we have a long pattern which can result in a long series of diffs, so that each one is unproblematic or slightly problematic, but all together thay may constitute a harassment pattern and make the victim feel very unpleasant. ANI is absolutely not capable of dealing with this situation, and usually ArbCom can not handle it either. In my situation, I overreacted a couple of times, and then every time I would try to raise the question at best it would be called "keeping old grudges" and I was advised to "grow thick skin", but more often that it was told it was my fault and in fact it was harassment from my side. ArbCom was not capable of performing any better. To be honest, I do not see how T&S can perform better either. An investigation of such situation would require wading through thousands of diffs and reconstructing the whole episodes, and I just do not see how this can be done.
Best Yaroslav
On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 12:57 PM Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
The whole purpose of harassing someone is to put them under pressure, to make the victim upset and force them away from editing. Creating a clear list of problematic diffs and an unbiased, unemotional recounting of events is impossible during the incident, when all thats desired is to have the immediate abuse stopped. Emotive language is a call for help, seasoned abusers know how to play the game AN/I and the community knows them so
when
they boo the community accepts their version. At AN/I and as Vermont explain its the victim that has to be restrain their language, its the victim that has to be calm, its the victim that has to clearly lay out
all
the diffs, its the victim that has to recount/relive the whole of the abuse. The victim is not at fault but until the system supports the
victim
the problems of in grained abuse and hostility by old hands is going to remain.
On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 17:51, Chris Gates via Wikimedia-l < wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
I see.
The English Wikipedia, and most projects in general (from my
experience),
are not perfect at handling problems with established editors.
This is to be expected. However, there’s some element of draconian
secret
policing present in having a brigade of T&S employees handling any and
all
conduct issues. We ha e local communities, and in most cases they are successful in handling issues, but when an editor’s social clout is involved, and/or when there’s incivility/harassment from multiple
parties,
it quickly becomes a larger issue that often ends with little to no
action.
With this issue specifically, it’s minor and local community functions would very likely have been able to manage it properly had the
discussions
continued. The formation of the messages also help determine the
outcome; a
message saying they were told to report there with no links but one to
the
editor’s userpage is not very helpful for people viewing it. A list of problematic diffs and an unbiased, unemotional recounting of events is quite helpful for those viewing it. The latter is much likely to result successfully than the former.
Also, T&S actions are not quick and easy either. Their investigations
are
usually quite extensive and take equally extensive periods of time. Communities act quicker, and though the volunteers may be affected more
by
personal prejudice than employees of the WMF, we are a collaborative project that relies on community input.
Hopefully the UCoC is successful with setting reasonable definitions
and
expectations for community enforcement of conduct policies, though in
my
view larger projects are not the most pressing issue to be addressed by
the
UCoC. This instance of sexual harassment is minor when viewed in perspective. It’s clearly uncivil and a problem, and we don’t know how
the
ANI section would have ended up if continued (though I would have
supported
a strong warning and block if it continued, perhaps an IBAN), but it
could
have been handled locally. Take a look at most projects with under 30 admins. Small community, usually tightly knit, with entrenched
hierarchies
of social clout. Those projects are where extreme incivility, blatant bigotry, and clearly biased administrative actions occur most often.
Not
to
mention non-harassment/incivility issues like copyright violations, backwards policies, and historical revisionism, completely ignored by
local
administrators, which hopefully at some point can be mitigated as well.
Regarding Fæ’s email, it would be interesting and useful to see a study
on
boomerangs at ANI. It does seem prevalent for newer editors,
experiencing
biting from more established editors, to be unable to seek
rectification
for the more established editor’s conduct. It is unfortunately also
common
that, when incivility exists, some of it is present on both sides,
making
these issues much less clear-cut and dramatically increasing the potentiality for a boomerang.
Best, Vermont
On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 15:40 William Chan william@wchan.hk wrote:
Why the harassed normally email T&S but not seeking local help:
Sometimes some kinds of harassment against a person or a group is an orchestrated attempt driven by off-wiki matters. Considering the "importance" of Wikipedia and it's sister projects, and the
fundamentally
huge size of the movement, it seemed mostly unnoticeable in some
cases.
These kinds of planned harassment (not only sexual harassment but all
forms
of harassment) would not normally be observed in large languages used
by
different nations because the sheer size of the user base diluted
their
attempts.
However, if language becomes national and got very limited outside
use
apart from the country they are from (i.e. Japanese in Japan, or
Korean
in
Korea,etc. Not saying they have a serious sexual harassment problem,
just
an example), harassment against the minority may appear in all forms, including but not limited to blocking them from any administrative
posts,
to sexual harassments to an outright ban of some individuals. In this
case,
local bodies which deal with harassing would be normally held by
those
who
are, or show sympathy to the harasser, and that is the problem.
Local governance (last stand) bodies are usually opaque in nature -
the
elections to those bodies are normally fair, but it is not
transparent
enough of what they do just because they are volunteer.
Those very large communities normally have a (relatively) inefficient
speed
to deal with issues because of the number of problems they receive. The irony is that, for the smaller communities is, the abuser would
have
some connection with the last-stand bodies, that would mean conflict
of
interest - though with much irony, COI is not observed when they are playing Wikipolitics.
This means, you either get a local "slow safe soace" because they
receive
too many case to review per day, or an "unsafe safe space" because harassers know those who deal with these reports.
You either get a language that is too big and inefficient to treat
reports,
or languages that, because of the size, they harasser may just
outright
know the ones who deal with these problems. That's why T&S needs way
more
people.
And not all languages have self-governing bodies.
P.S. Written by someone who had emailed T&S about harassments against himself. One harasser got a conduct warning while the other one got foundation-blocked.
On Mon, Aug 24, 2020, 22:54 Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
For a person to report harassment they must first feel safe to do
so.
Not
everyone is capable of dealing with or participating in a public
debate
about whether they have been harassed, there is a significant
difference
between arguing facts on a topic and dealing with harassment and
offensive
comments directed at you. Its a very effective method of ensuring
that
you
can keep control of subject areas, or part of Wikipedia. What is
going
unnoticed, unrecorded and never dealt with is the same people make
personal
attacks and harass contributors repeatedly, many of these people
are
protected by other at AN/I or large followings that ensure they are
almost
untouchable.
Just like this thread dismissing problems when they are raised is unhelpful, and has a chilling effect on productive outcomes. The
lack
of
alternative safe ways to address issues has been a problem for many
years
driving away 1,000s of good contributors.
On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 21:47, Chris Gates via Wikimedia-l < wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
I fail to understand how requiring public report of
publicly-occurring
harassment is a problem.
If people are being harassed constantly via off-wiki
communication,
emailing a local admin team or T&S is definitely the best thing
to
do
if
they don’t want to make it public in an on-wiki report.
However, if it’s on-wiki, I don’t see any viable reason as to why
it
should
not be reported on-wiki as well. By no means is it “doubling
down”
on
harassment; that doesn’t even make much sense considering that it
isn’t
the
collective community making the harassment, it’s an individual.
It
also
doesn’t matter at all what the harasser feels like either; if
they’re
blocked after a civilly-written and clear-cut report on ANI it
doesn’t
matter what they think. It’s not acceptable to have a secret
police
team
to
handle every content issue; community input exists for a reason,
especially
on collaborative projects like this.
Further, when did anyone say the community is not willing to
handle
harassment issues? It truly bothers me to see people write
nonsense
like
this.
I will restate:
Local communities appoint administrators to enforce consensus.
There
is
consensus that harassment should be responded to with warnings
and,
if
repeated or severe, blocks.
These administrators usually have a mailing list and an on-wiki noticeboard. These noticeboards are open for anyone to create
sections
on,
and unless a request was clearly made in bad faith or
intentionally
misled
readers, there is practically no chance of successful retaliatory
action
on
the part of the individual who created the harassment.
In this case, a section was made on ANI, multiple editors
commented,
and
for some reason the section was removed mid-discussion. It is to
be
expected that someone with an independent viewpoint would seek
less
radical
action than someone directly a party of the dispute. In this
case,
there
was incivility and arguable harassment coming from both parties,
though
clearly “cutie” is not conducive to the desired contributory
environment.
Simple conduct cases are not the sort of issue for T&S. Let them
(and
often
stewards) handle the threats to life, the vandals trying to find
where
editors live, the IPs making terrorist threats, the new accounts
uploading
child pornography, the vandals spreading the private details of
editors,
etc. Basic conduct issues can be handled by local administrators.
And for the “chilling effect” of reporting issues like this
publicly,
if
someone is incapable of seeing other people interpret events
another
way,
disagreeing with them, or not wanting as drastic and immediate
action,
they
may not be suited for a collaborative project.
There are easy ways to handle people who are clearly harassing
you
on-wiki:
- Ask them to stop. If they refuse,
- Create a section on ANI giving a short, simple, and unbiased
explanation
of the issue with diffs. 3) Wait for editors and admins to comment. If the community
believes
it’s
problematic enough to warrant action, action will be taken. If no
and
the
harassment continues continues, 4) Most projects have other methods of handling issues like this.
Enwiki
has ArbCom for this, simplewiki has community sanction
discussions,
other
projects have other methods.
At no point would removing the ANI report mid-discussion be
helpful.
And
doing so then claiming that it’s the community’s fault is clearly incorrect.
Regards, Vermont
On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 01:46 Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com
wrote:
> > > > The code of conduct is not a law. People who are harassers
are
criminals > > and not above the law. Sexual harassment is a serious
offense.
Any
kind
> > of harrasment is an offense. Wikipedia s administrators are
not
the
law
> > and not above the law. > > Wikipedia is not above the law. > > > The international aspects and the fact that WMF protects
editors
privacy
> makes options outside the movement very limited to only the
extreme
end
of > the scale. Beside the legal aspect its a cop out for the
Community
&
WMF
to > dismiss any harassment as something they cant do anything
about,
this
> response is why AN/I is also a waste of time and why so much
harassment
> never gets dealt with, ultimately why the movement has
difficulty
in
> attracting under represented groups > > On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 13:14, Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής < > anonymuswikipedian@gmail.com> wrote: > > > The code of conduct is not a law. > > People who are harassers are criminals and not above the law. > > Sexual harassment is a serious offense. Any kind of
harrasment
is
an
> > offense. Wikipedia s administrators are not the law and not
above
the
> law. > > Wikipedia is not above the law. > > People who seek help should be appointed to the right
specialized
> > authorities as the police and not discouraged to do so. > > > > Safety team from my experience, will not help any
wikipedian/victim
who
> > with report a harrasment case. They are just another
department
of
> > wikimedia foundation. > > > > Any people is important and count. > > Please take what ever actions you think is necessary. > > > > I believe you. > > > > Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής > > > > > > Στις Δευ, 24 Αυγ 2020, 7:39 π.μ. ο χρήστης Robert Myers < > > robert.myers@wikimedia.org.au> έγραψε: > > > > > And there the problem lies, going to local authorities
(police)
isn’t
> > > going to be useful. Some authorities require the alleged
crime
to
be
> > > committed in their jurisdiction, which can be limited,
anonymous
nature > > of > > > the person who committed the alleged crime makes it
difficult
to
> identify > > > the individual(s), with it servers hosted outside the
jurisdiction
make > > it > > > harder to investigate. Also I have seen in the past,
WP:LEGAL
used
> > against > > > those who have reported threats of physical violence or
harassment
> > > (physical stalking) to law enforcement. > > > > > > I do think there needs to be a off-wiki complaint process
for
serious
> > > allegations, since on-wiki processes can be inappropriate
and
acts
as a > > > chilling effect (since it is very open and public) on the
victim(s).
> The > > > same situation can occur for alleged perpetrator(s), where
the
> > > allegation(s) are false or vexatious and malicious
grievances.
> > > > > > Maybe the Universal Code of Conduct might address this
issue,
it
might > > not > > > as well. > > > > > > -- > > > Robert Myers > > > robert.myers@wikimedia.org.au > > > http://www.wikimedia.org.au > > > > > > > On 24 Aug 2020, at 1:37 pm, Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής < > > > anonymuswikipedian@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > If you ve been sexually harassed in wikipedia this is
not
a
matter
> to > > be > > > > solved on a mailing list or by Safety team. Go to you
local
> authorities > > > and > > > > report it. This is a very serious matter to just become
an
essay
for > > > > someone or belive that it can be solved by administrators
or
safety
> > team. > > > > Safety team in my harassment case told me to "politely"
ask
my
> > harrasers > > > to > > > > stop harassing me. Please don t relay on them for such a
serious
> > matter! > > > > Please be safe and I m sure you can seek help by trained
and
serious > > > people > > > > by your local authorities. > > > > I wish someone could told me that in my case then and not
point
me
to > > > > safety team. They will not help you. > > > > > > > > Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής > > > > > > > > > > > > Στις Δευ, 24 Αυγ 2020, 3:41 π.μ. ο χρήστης Gnangarra < > > > gnangarra@gmail.com> > > > > έγραψε: > > > > > > > >> If someone feels harassed then a public noticeboard is
the
last
> place > > to > > > >> send them for help, that is an absolute failure of the
community
to > > > >> understand that the act of reporting is also doubling
down
on
the
> > harm. > > > >> Doing so publicly is indicating to the person committing
the
> > harassment > > > >> that they have succeeded in causing harm. > > > >> > > > >> This folks is the very reason why we fail to retain
editors
and
> breach > > > the > > > >> imbalance of editors and continue have trouble with
bias.
Everyone > > > speaks > > > >> english but the cultural nuances of the language vary
greatly
with
> > words > > > >> having multiple meanings and being used specifically to
cause
> offense. > > > >> > > > >> The word cutie has its meanings; > > > >> > > > >> - of being nice looking when talking about kids and
animals
> > > >> > > > >> but once its used referring to an adult as part of a
discussion
its > > > changes > > > >> to that of them being; > > > >> > > > >> - of being an arsehole > > > >> - of being picky > > > >> - and of having sexual connotations ranging from you
are
fuckable, > > to > > > >> your sexual orientation. > > > >> > > > >> When these complaints get to something like AN/I those
cultural
and > > > >> linguistic nuances get dismissed and the person using
them
has
> gained > > a > > > lot > > > >> of power, self satisfaction, and endorsement of their
harassment
as > > > being > > > >> ok, with a bonus that other users are now also enabled
to
harass
the > > > >> complaining editor knowing full well that AN/I will do
nothing.
> > > >> > > > >> The bottom line is if a person feels harassed they have
been
> harassed, > > > >> whether we understand the depth of why they feel
harassed
is
not
> > > relevant > > > >> but that should not be a barrier to prevent further
harassment.
> > > >> > > > >> > > > >>> On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 06:21, Isaac Olatunde < > > reachout2isaac@gmail.com > > > > > > > >>> wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> Hello Chris, > > > >>> > > > >>> This isn't a terribly bad advise, AFAICS. > > > >>> > > > >>> Harassments are treated on a case-by-case basis. > > > >>> > > > >>> So, if this is something you aren't comfortable
discussing
> publicly, > > > you > > > >>> could email the Functionary team or ArbCom or similar
body
in
that > > > >>> community. > > > >>> > > > >>> If it's something that should be removed from public
view,
you
> could > > > >>> contact the oversight team. > > > >>> > > > >>> I can't see the contents of the harassment, so I can
only
speak
> based > > > on > > > >>> general principle. > > > >>> > > > >>> Regards > > > >>> > > > >>> Isaac > > > >>> > > > >>> On Sun, 23 Aug 2020, 23:07 Chris Sherlock, < > > chris.sherlock79@gmail.com > > > > > > > >>> wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>>> To be clear, this is what I was advised: > > > >>>> > > > >>>> “ Harassment concerns can be reviewed under the
appropriate
> > community > > > >>>> process. I would therefore advise you to report the
edit
summary
> to > > > the > > > >>>> appropriate channels on the wiki it occured. If this
happened
on
> > > >> English > > > >>>> Wikipedia, this would be the Administrator's board for incidents. > > > >>>> I hope the above is helpful.” > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Chris > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Sent from my iPhone > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> On 24 Aug 2020, at 6:43 am, Chris Sherlock < > > > >> chris.sherlock79@gmail.com > > > >>>> > > > >>>> wrote: > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Hello all, > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is
concerned
about > > > >> being > > > >>>> sexually harassed they must report this to AN/I and
there
are
no
> > > >> private > > > >>>> mechanisms to report this sort of thing. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Is this for real? > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Chris Sherlock > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Sent from my iPhone > > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > > >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > >>>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
and
> > > >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > >>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > >>>> Unsubscribe: > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > > > , > > > >>>> mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org > ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > >>>> > > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > > >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > >>>
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https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> > > >> Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page > > > >> My print shop: > https://www.redbubble.com/people/Gnangarra/shop?asc=u > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > >>
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