Hello,
We have received a request for closure of the Nahuatl Wikipedia:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects/Closure_of_Na...
Interestingly, the user who is requesting it has been blocked from it in 2016, as well from other three Wikipedias.
(not sure I have the ability to post here but I wanted to comment although I am not a member of the committee)
This raises some issues that have been bubbling up since the beginning of NAH Wikipedia. In Mexico there is a very particular type of racism or prejudice where classical indigenous cultures and languages are upheld as ideals to aspire to, while modern indigenous cultures and people are minimized. This seems to have been the theme since the beginning. Over one million people are native speakers of Náhuatl. This Wikipedia was never intended for them, and any and all input from native speakers or people advocating for modern indigenous perspectives to be considered has been summarily ignored and excluded. Non-speakers (NAH-0 and NAH-1) have been so rigid in their insistence on adherence to Classical Náhuatl norms (which they are, ironically, not proficient in anyways) that I once got into an edit war with a user who insisted on changing the orthography loanword "rock" (as in "rock n roll") to "rocq", which is more extreme than even Spanish (the source of Classical Náhuatl orthography) and unknown by actual Náhuatl speakers.
Mexico and Central America have large indigenous populations that include prolific and active writers in indigenous languages. It is a shame that Wikipedia has not been able to be part of strategies for indigenous language maintenance in this region, in spite of serious efforts from Yucatec Maya speakers to create a Wikipedia and repeated attempts of Náhuatl speakers to influence the direction of the "Náhuatl Wikipedia"
On Oct 10, 2017 12:32 PM, "Maor Malul" maor_x@zoho.com wrote:
Hello,
We have received a request for closure of the Nahuatl Wikipedia:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_ projects/Closure_of_Nahuatl_Wikipedia_2
Interestingly, the user who is requesting it has been blocked from it in 2016, as well from other three Wikipedias.
Forwarding Marcos' email. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Marcos Williamson" node.ue@gmail.com Date: Oct 10, 2017 10:37 PM Subject: Re: [Langcom] Request for closure of Nahuatl Wikipedia To: "Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee" langcom@lists.wikimedia.org, "Milos Rancic" millosh@gmail.com Cc:
(not sure I have the ability to post here but I wanted to comment although I am not a member of the committee)
This raises some issues that have been bubbling up since the beginning of NAH Wikipedia. In Mexico there is a very particular type of racism or prejudice where classical indigenous cultures and languages are upheld as ideals to aspire to, while modern indigenous cultures and people are minimized. This seems to have been the theme since the beginning. Over one million people are native speakers of Náhuatl. This Wikipedia was never intended for them, and any and all input from native speakers or people advocating for modern indigenous perspectives to be considered has been summarily ignored and excluded. Non-speakers (NAH-0 and NAH-1) have been so rigid in their insistence on adherence to Classical Náhuatl norms (which they are, ironically, not proficient in anyways) that I once got into an edit war with a user who insisted on changing the orthography loanword "rock" (as in "rock n roll") to "rocq", which is more extreme than even Spanish (the source of Classical Náhuatl orthography) and unknown by actual Náhuatl speakers.
Mexico and Central America have large indigenous populations that include prolific and active writers in indigenous languages. It is a shame that Wikipedia has not been able to be part of strategies for indigenous language maintenance in this region, in spite of serious efforts from Yucatec Maya speakers to create a Wikipedia and repeated attempts of Náhuatl speakers to influence the direction of the "Náhuatl Wikipedia"
On Oct 10, 2017 12:32 PM, "Maor Malul" maor_x@zoho.com wrote:
Hello,
We have received a request for closure of the Nahuatl Wikipedia:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projec ts/Closure_of_Nahuatl_Wikipedia_2
Interestingly, the user who is requesting it has been blocked from it in 2016, as well from other three Wikipedias.
Just read the entire proposal and discussion thread - yikes! Looks like a matter of politics and personal issues to me, neither of which will be solved by the closure of a WMF project. I don't see a) any reason why we should support this request and b) any opportunity to communicate openly and rationally with Marrovi as he does not seem to accept any critical voice, or any non-Nahuatl voice for that matter (and to make matters worse, he seems to be the only one defining who counts as Nahua).
My advice: Oppose the closure and don't waste any more time on Marrovi. (But support indigenous Nahuatl wikis, by all means!)
Fwiw, Oliver
On 10-Oct-17 22:47, Milos Rancic wrote:
Forwarding Marcos' email. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Marcos Williamson" <node.ue@gmail.com mailto:node.ue@gmail.com> Date: Oct 10, 2017 10:37 PM Subject: Re: [Langcom] Request for closure of Nahuatl Wikipedia To: "Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee" <langcom@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:langcom@lists.wikimedia.org>, "Milos Rancic" <millosh@gmail.com mailto:millosh@gmail.com> Cc:
(not sure I have the ability to post here but I wanted to comment although I am not a member of the committee)
This raises some issues that have been bubbling up since the beginning of NAH Wikipedia. In Mexico there is a very particular type of racism or prejudice where classical indigenous cultures and languages are upheld as ideals to aspire to, while modern indigenous cultures and people are minimized. This seems to have been the theme since the beginning. Over one million people are native speakers of Náhuatl. This Wikipedia was never intended for them, and any and all input from native speakers or people advocating for modern indigenous perspectives to be considered has been summarily ignored and excluded. Non-speakers (NAH-0 and NAH-1) have been so rigid in their insistence on adherence to Classical Náhuatl norms (which they are, ironically, not proficient in anyways) that I once got into an edit war with a user who insisted on changing the orthography loanword "rock" (as in "rock n roll") to "rocq", which is more extreme than even Spanish (the source of Classical Náhuatl orthography) and unknown by actual Náhuatl speakers.
Mexico and Central America have large indigenous populations that include prolific and active writers in indigenous languages. It is a shame that Wikipedia has not been able to be part of strategies for indigenous language maintenance in this region, in spite of serious efforts from Yucatec Maya speakers to create a Wikipedia and repeated attempts of Náhuatl speakers to influence the direction of the "Náhuatl Wikipedia"
On Oct 10, 2017 12:32 PM, "Maor Malul" <maor_x@zoho.com mailto:maor_x@zoho.com> wrote:
Hello, We have received a request for closure of the Nahuatl Wikipedia: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects/Closure_of_Nahuatl_Wikipedia_2 <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects/Closure_of_Nahuatl_Wikipedia_2> Interestingly, the user who is requesting it has been blocked from it in 2016, as well from other three Wikipedias. -- *"Jülüjain wane mmakat ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee wayuukanairua junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya junain."* Maor Malul Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2 | www.wikimedia.org.ve <http://www.wikimedia.org.ve> Member, Wikimedia Israel | www.wikimedia.org.il <http://www.wikimedia.org.il> Vice-Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations Committee Phone: +972-52-4869915 <tel:+972%2052-486-9915> Twitter: @maor_x <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> Libre de virus. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> <#m_6183429124755373475_m_5483869902583687801_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom>
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
Waste of time to discuss with who do not want to listen tonanything but their own stories. Suggest speedy closure of the proposal and I'd even consider a block on him at Meta. His only edits so far in Meta have been adding huge piles of garbage at the talk page of the closed global ban request for him and attacking his "opponents". ~M.
El El mié, 11 oct 2017 a las 10:24, Oliver Stegen oliver_stegen@sil.org escribió:
Just read the entire proposal and discussion thread - yikes! Looks like a matter of politics and personal issues to me, neither of which will be solved by the closure of a WMF project. I don't see a) any reason why we should support this request and b) any opportunity to communicate openly and rationally with Marrovi as he does not seem to accept any critical voice, or any non-Nahuatl voice for that matter (and to make matters worse, he seems to be the only one defining who counts as Nahua).
My advice: Oppose the closure and don't waste any more time on Marrovi. (But support indigenous Nahuatl wikis, by all means!)
Fwiw, Oliver
On 10-Oct-17 22:47, Milos Rancic wrote:
Forwarding Marcos' email. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Marcos Williamson" node.ue@gmail.com Date: Oct 10, 2017 10:37 PM Subject: Re: [Langcom] Request for closure of Nahuatl Wikipedia To: "Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee" langcom@lists.wikimedia.org, "Milos Rancic" millosh@gmail.com Cc:
(not sure I have the ability to post here but I wanted to comment although I am not a member of the committee)
This raises some issues that have been bubbling up since the beginning of NAH Wikipedia. In Mexico there is a very particular type of racism or prejudice where classical indigenous cultures and languages are upheld as ideals to aspire to, while modern indigenous cultures and people are minimized. This seems to have been the theme since the beginning. Over one million people are native speakers of Náhuatl. This Wikipedia was never intended for them, and any and all input from native speakers or people advocating for modern indigenous perspectives to be considered has been summarily ignored and excluded. Non-speakers (NAH-0 and NAH-1) have been so rigid in their insistence on adherence to Classical Náhuatl norms (which they are, ironically, not proficient in anyways) that I once got into an edit war with a user who insisted on changing the orthography loanword "rock" (as in "rock n roll") to "rocq", which is more extreme than even Spanish (the source of Classical Náhuatl orthography) and unknown by actual Náhuatl speakers.
Mexico and Central America have large indigenous populations that include prolific and active writers in indigenous languages. It is a shame that Wikipedia has not been able to be part of strategies for indigenous language maintenance in this region, in spite of serious efforts from Yucatec Maya speakers to create a Wikipedia and repeated attempts of Náhuatl speakers to influence the direction of the "Náhuatl Wikipedia"
On Oct 10, 2017 12:32 PM, "Maor Malul" maor_x@zoho.com wrote:
Hello,
We have received a request for closure of the Nahuatl Wikipedia:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects/Closure_of_Na...
Interestingly, the user who is requesting it has been blocked from it in 2016, as well from other three Wikipedias. -- *"Jülüjain wane mmakat ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee wayuukanairua junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya junain."* Maor Malul Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2 | www.wikimedia.org.ve Member, Wikimedia Israel | www.wikimedia.org.il Vice-Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations Committee Phone: +972-52-4869915 <+972%2052-486-9915> Twitter: @maor_x
https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient Libre de virus. www.avast.com https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient <#m_-4043230792775984990_m_6183429124755373475_m_5483869902583687801_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
Langcom mailing listLangcom@lists.wikimedia.orghttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
I like this:
I am an expert in these languages, though not a professor, but I can state that most of the content is not in correct classical Nahuatl - and that the neologisms invented by non-native speakers are not immediately intelligible or helpful for native speakers or experts in classical nahuatl. Nevertheless, I think the better solution would be for all non-native speaking editors to simply back out and let the native speakers take over the wiki and refashion it in the way that most serves their needs. And then for wikimedia to do some serious outreach efforts to recruit native speaking editors in Mexico. Maunus (talk) 06:31, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
That seems reasonable.
Michael
It is interesting to see that Marrovi, the user requesting its closure, was blocked indefinitely for doing exactly that, adding content transgressing the rules of this Wikipedia. And he has been blocked from the Spanish, Galician and German Wikipedia for similar reasons.
On 11/10/2017 2:07 a.m., Michael Everson wrote:
I like this:
I am an expert in these languages, though not a professor, but I can state that most of the content is not in correct classical Nahuatl - and that the neologisms invented by non-native speakers are not immediately intelligible or helpful for native speakers or experts in classical nahuatl. Nevertheless, I think the better solution would be for all non-native speaking editors to simply back out and let the native speakers take over the wiki and refashion it in the way that most serves their needs. And then for wikimedia to do some serious outreach efforts to recruit native speaking editors in Mexico. Maunus (talk) 06:31, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
That seems reasonable.
Michael _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom