OK. I'm assuming that (a) the concept of closing stale requests as I've proposed is generally acceptable, and (b) that at least in the cases other than Teochew I can proceed.
With respect to Teochew, I'm going to mark it as "on hold/waiting", pending a language code. But if we don't see a new request at SIL in a year, then I'm going to close. Please let me know if that is acceptable.
There are, in fact, a couple of other requests from 2010 still open. There are two requests on different Balochi projects, which I thought should wait until Satdeep finished his investigations into that. There is a request for "Southern Min in Hanji," which I intended to leave sitting until we had a discussion of when different scripts need different projects and when not. But apparently phabricator T165882https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T165882 says that the community has agreed to a namespace for Hanji, so this can be closed as resolved. There is a request for Wiktionary Pitcairnesehttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wiktionary_Pitcairnese that can be closed as stale along the same lines as the others here. And there is a request for Wikipedia Chinuk wawa that is supported by a few pages in the Incubator, so I'm going to mark it eligible.
Steven
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________________________________ From: Langcom langcom-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org on behalf of langcom-request@lists.wikimedia.org langcom-request@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Friday, January 26, 2018 7:00 AM To: langcom@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Langcom Digest, Vol 52, Issue 24
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Final group of projects with requests lingering since 2010 (Phake Nick) 2. Re: Final group of projects with requests lingering since 2010 (MF-Warburg)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 09:53:21 +0800 From: Phake Nick c933103@gmail.com To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee langcom@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Langcom] Final group of projects with requests lingering since 2010 Message-ID: CAGHjPP+tUooqAWcJdrKA+nYNZY3Qi+MZnrJquY0ywOVYamSKfA@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
2018年1月25日 03:49 於 "MF-Warburg" mfwarburg@googlemail.com 寫道：
Well, but it's equally true (and written) that "If there is no valid ISO
639 code, you must obtain one. The Wikimedia Foundation does not seek to develop new linguistic entities".
My understanding on the description of "does not seek to develop new linguistic entities" is that WMF does not seek to develop new language and thus it would like confirmation from ISO standard regulation body, instead of the code itself.
We do absolutely not want to invent our own codes, because that gets
really messy, especially when at some point a language does get a real code.
Why not tentatively use e.g. ISO639-6 code as a working code in incubator or for the project before it could get a 639-1/2/3 code? after it get a code in ISO 639-1/2/3 then it should be possible to move things over. Although all the code change requests have been piled up for years in phabricator but that should hopefully be sorted out one day.
One thing to consider: - In the previous code application, Hainanese was mentioned as a thing to consider about before splitting out Teochew. There are currently request for a code for Hainanese which will probably take some times to handle, and I would not expect request for Teochew to surface before that one get created
2018年1月29日 18:26 於 "Steven White" Koala19890@hotmail.com 寫道：
OK. I'm assuming that (a) the concept of closing stale requests as I've proposed is generally acceptable, and (b) that at least in the cases other than Teochew I can proceed.
With respect to Teochew, I'm going to mark it as "on hold/waiting", pending a language code. But if we don't see a new request at SIL in a year, then I'm going to close. Please let me know if that is acceptable.
There are, in fact, a couple of other requests from 2010 still open. There are two requests on different Balochi projects, which I thought should wait until Satdeep finished his investigations into that. There is a request for "Southern Min in Hanji," which I intended to leave sitting until we had a discussion of when different scripts need different projects and when not. But apparently phabricator T165882 https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T165882 says that the community has agreed to a namespace for Hanji, so this can be closed as resolved. There is a request for Wiktionary Pitcairnese https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wiktionary_Pitcairnese that can be closed as stale along the same lines as the others here. And there is a request for Wikipedia Chinuk wawa that is supported by a few pages in the Incubator, so I'm going to mark it eligible.
Steven
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Today's Topics:
- Re: Final group of projects with requests lingering since 2010 (Phake Nick)
- Re: Final group of projects with requests lingering since 2010 (MF-Warburg)
Message: 1 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 09:53:21 +0800 From: Phake Nick c933103@gmail.com To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee langcom@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Langcom] Final group of projects with requests lingering since 2010 Message-ID: <CAGHjPP+tUooqAWcJdrKA+nYNZY3Qi+MZnrJquY0ywOVYamSKfA@ mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
2018年1月25日 03:49 於 "MF-Warburg" mfwarburg@googlemail.com 寫道：
Well, but it's equally true (and written) that "If there is no valid ISO
639 code, you must obtain one. The Wikimedia Foundation does not seek to develop new linguistic entities".
My understanding on the description of "does not seek to develop new linguistic entities" is that WMF does not seek to develop new language and thus it would like confirmation from ISO standard regulation body, instead of the code itself.
We do absolutely not want to invent our own codes, because that gets
really messy, especially when at some point a language does get a real code.
Why not tentatively use e.g. ISO639-6 code as a working code in incubator or for the project before it could get a 639-1/2/3 code? after it get a code in ISO 639-1/2/3 then it should be possible to move things over. Although all the code change requests have been piled up for years in phabricator but that should hopefully be sorted out one day.
The change request can be found at http://www-01.sil.org/iso639-3/cr_files/2017-023.pdf
Congratulations to the Wikimedia Armenia community for championing this ISO code!
I will note that 'hyx' is noted as the collective code for the entire Armenian family, including Eastern and Western Armenian. If in the future LanguageConverter is able to sensibly convert between Armenian variants, we might be able to put `hyx.wikipedia.org` to good use. --scott
On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 5:22 PM, Michael Everson everson@evertype.com wrote:
http://www-01.sil.org/iso639-3/cr_files/639-3_ChangeRequests_2017_Summary. pdf
http://www-01.sil.org/iso639-3/cr_files/PastComments/CR_ Comments_2017-023.pdf
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Congratulations, Michael and the entire Western Armenian community (or rather communities!). And thanks for all the effort you put into this!
Cheers, Oliver
On 30-Jan-18 23:22, Michael Everson wrote:
http://www-01.sil.org/iso639-3/cr_files/639-3_ChangeRequests_2017_Summary.pd...
http://www-01.sil.org/iso639-3/cr_files/PastComments/CR_Comments_2017-023.pd...
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So... This raises several questions.
1. Should this language be added to translatewiki.net? This was requested some time ago: https://translatewiki.net/wiki/Thread:Support/Add_ support_for_Western_Armenian_(hym) . This means that it will be possible to translate MediaWiki into it.
2. I couldn't find a request for a Western Armenian Wikipedia, which is somewhat surprising :) . The closest thing I can find is https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_ languages/Wikipedia_Homshetsma , which is not the same thing. In any case, whenever such a request is made, will it be eligible?
I am inclined to answer "yes" to both questions, but with a caveat. I know very little about the Armenian language. My support is based mainly on Michael's conclusions of the examination of the differences between Eastern and Western varieties. However, the documents linked from the first email in this thread mention the similarity of the situation with Montengrin, which the committee seems not to support.
If we reject Montenegrin, but support Western Armenian, we'll have to explain it.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2018-01-31 14:39 GMT+02:00 Oliver Stegen oliver_stegen@sil.org:
Congratulations, Michael and the entire Western Armenian community (or rather communities!). And thanks for all the effort you put into this!
Cheers, Oliver
On 30-Jan-18 23:22, Michael Everson wrote:
http://www-01.sil.org/iso639-3/cr_files/639-3_ChangeRequests _2017_Summary.pdf
http://www-01.sil.org/iso639-3/cr_files/PastComments/CR_Comm ents_2017-023.pdf
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On 31 Jan 2018, at 12:56, Amir E. Aharoni amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il wrote:
So... This raises several questions.
Really?
- Should this language be added to translatewiki.net? This was requested some time ago: https://translatewiki.net/wiki/Thread:Support/Add_support_for_Western_Armeni...) . This means that it will be possible to translate MediaWiki into it.
Yes, certainly it should.
- I couldn't find a request for a Western Armenian Wikipedia, which is somewhat surprising :) . The closest thing I can find is https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Homshet... , which is not the same thing. In any case, whenever such a request is made, will it be eligible?
It will be eligible. There are some articles in the current Armenian Wikipedia that are marked as written in Western Armenian, and I would be expecting them to be migrated.
Homshetsi is evidently a dialect of Western Armenian with fewer than 1000 speakers. I do not know anything more about it. It has no ISO code.
I am inclined to answer "yes" to both questions, but with a caveat. I know very little about the Armenian language. My support is based mainly on Michael's conclusions of the examination of the differences between Eastern and Western varieties.
We showed lists and paradigms showing the linguistic differences.
However, the documents linked from the first email in this thread mention the similarity of the situation with Montengrin, which the committee seems not to support.
I don’t support it because it does not appear that Montenegrin differs from Serbian in any significant way.
If we reject Montenegrin, but support Western Armenian, we'll have to explain it.
Absolutely we do not have to do this. There is no dependency between them. None. And Western Armenian is HUGELY different from Eastern Armenian. Please study the attached which was part of our proposal for the language code.
2018-01-31 17:18 GMT+02:00 Michael Everson everson@evertype.com:
On 31 Jan 2018, at 12:56, Amir E. Aharoni amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il wrote:
If we reject Montenegrin, but support Western Armenian, we'll have to
explain it.
Absolutely we do not have to do this.
Let me rephrase this: People will likely raise questions about it, and it would be nice if we had a good reply.
There is no dependency between them. None. And Western Armenian is HUGELY different from Eastern Armenian. Please study the attached which was part of our proposal for the language code.
I am nowhere near being an expert in Armenian languages. Knowing Russian doesn't make me an expert in South Slavic languages either, which is why I try to be careful and reserved in my judgment about Montenegrin.
The document about Armenian that Michael attached seems convincing to me. If a similar document is provided about Montenegrin, we may consider approving it. I couldn't find anything nearly as convincing in the long discussions about Montenegrin.
So I'm not disagreeing about the substance, but I am saying that there may be more discussions in this area.
On 31 Jan 2018, at 21:48, Amir E. Aharoni amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il wrote:
If we reject Montenegrin, but support Western Armenian, we'll have to explain it.
Absolutely we do not have to do this.
Let me rephrase this: People will likely raise questions about it, and it would be nice if we had a good reply.
The linguistic differences between the Eastern Armenian language and the Western Armenian language are well-attested and obvious. This is unrelated to any determination that might be made about other languages.
I am nowhere near being an expert in Armenian languages. Knowing Russian doesn't make me an expert in South Slavic languages either, which is why I try to be careful and reserved in my judgment about Montenegrin.
The document about Armenian that Michael attached seems convincing to me. If a similar document is provided about Montenegrin, we may consider approving it. I couldn't find anything nearly as convincing in the long discussions about Montenegrin.
Because its a variety of Serbian?
M
On 31 Jan 2018, at 12:39, Oliver Stegen oliver_stegen@sil.org wrote:
Congratulations, Michael and the entire Western Armenian community (or rather communities!). And thanks for all the effort you put into this!
It was quite a lot of effort, producing the proposal document.
Now let’s get this one going. What do they have to do now?
Michael
2018-01-31 16:04 GMT+01:00 Michael Everson everson@evertype.com:
Now let’s get this one going. What do they have to do now?
Translate the most-used messages of the interface and be active at https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/hyw