Ray Saintonge wrote:
> Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>
>> I am happy to read that things have been discussed with the
>> developpers. However, I find it hard to find what is discussed as the
>> link that is referred to is an already old thread on en:wiktionary.
>> As a consequence it is not clear and obvious what has been discussed.
>
>
> Agreed, but we're all responsible for that, myself included. The
> right thing for me to do would be to refactor my own old comments into
> my new ones. :-)
>
>> An other problem is that as this is not an en:wiktionary only issue,
>> meta would be a more obvious choise to host this discussion.
>
>
> Not really. Many of us who are interested in the Wiktionaries may not
> check into Meta that often. I would because I'm familiar with the
> issue, but I guarantee that there will be some who will complain that
> they were not warned about the change. Although I passively support
> the change on the other languages my vote there would mean as much as
> the votes by IP numbers that now appear in English. It comes down to
> a matter of process. In what languages would the knowledgeable people
> generally oppose this? Probably the only languages where this might
> not be such a big issue are those that do not use capitals in the
> first place,
>
>> To me, there are two issues.
>> *Having correct content, this can be better assured without
>> capitalisation of the first character.
>> *How to find stuff, this may mean that the search may have to be
>> blind for capitalisation.
>>
>> I think the second option would be a nice to have while the first is
>> a must have. I am convinced there are errors in nl:wiktionary because
>> I just do not see the difference between some capital and undercase
>> letters, the difference does not register. I can live with the second
>> coming life after the first.
>
>
> I find it hard to conceive how the first would work effectively,
> without the second being in place.
>
> Ec
>
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>
>
The argument against hosting the discussion on meta is equally valid
against hosting the discussion on en:wiktionary. People who are at home
in another wiktionary and who are intrested in this discussion may not
check into en:wiktionary that often. This list is the multi:wiktionary
list by its definition and may therefore reach other wiktionaries. Meta
is also by design available to host multi:wiktionary discussions. There
is no reason not to have a login on Meta, just create your own with your
own nick.
As to how having the first without the second would work? In the
nl:wiktionary typically people speak Dutch and know the Dutch spelling.
Most words created in another language are created from the translations
of a Dutch word. Therefore when Capitalisation is off, many words may go
awol. However they can be found. There will be some problems in getting
things to work again properly, that is just tough. That can be handled.
All this work needs to be done anyway in any scenario.
When a better search becomes available the search for users will become
easier, till that time we will have better information.
My main concern is that the information is correct. With forced
capitalisation is not. As to democracy when asked on nl:wiktionary,
there were no dissenting voices.
Thanks,
Gerard
>I and a couple of the real developers discussed the
>various issues and proposed techniques for improving
>the capitalisation of Wiki titles as requested by the
>various "factions" (: including what non-English
>Wiktionaries or at least some of their vocal users
>would like.
>
>I have already experimented with the codebase to come
>at this problem in various ways, and Jamesday posted a
>summary of what we talked about on IRC at
>http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/case-sensitivity_vote
>
>We would like to hear feedback and clarifications
>from everybody with your various viewpoints in this
>talk page please.
>
>Andrew Dunbar (hippietrail)
>
>
>
I am happy to read that things have been discussed with the developpers.
However, I find it hard to find what is discussed as the link that is
referred to is an already old thread on en:wiktionary. As a consequence
it is not clear and obvious what has been discussed.
An other problem is that as this is not an en:wiktionary only issue,
meta would be a more obvious choise to host this discussion.
To me, there are two issues.
*Having correct content, this can be better assured without
capitalisation of the first character.
*How to find stuff, this may mean that the search may have to be blind
for capitalisation.
I think the second option would be a nice to have while the first is a
must have. I am convinced there are errors in nl:wiktionary because I
just do not see the difference between some capital and undercase
letters, the difference does not register. I can live with the second
coming life after the first.
Thanks.
Gerard
Hoi,
I have a 8878 big botanical glossary that I want to add to the wiktionary. I already have asked Andre Engels to help me out with preparing the upload and helping me out with doing things more easily aided by programs.
However some words are capitalised and some are not as they should be. I do not want to upload all these words before the capitalisation has been turned off for nl:wiktionary. It is just to much work to have it corrected at a later date.
At this moment the slim majority that prevents en:wiktionary to forego first letter capitalisation are some IP-numbers that have it for the Nayes. This "democratic" process prevents both nl:wiktionary and de:wiktionary from having the requested capitalisation turned off. In the discussions on en: it is stated that each project has the choise to decide on this issue. This is however not the case as the programmers want to have all wiktionaries the same way.
In order to have some more discussion on the subject, I send this message both to the wiktionary and wikitech list. I also send it to Jimbo Wales as he does not monitor the wiktionary list afaik. (I spoke with him on sunday..). Please, let us discuss this issue. The nl:wiktionary is on 3123 words, we will already have a big job to get things working again after the transfer. With time this will only increase and again, I will not upload the glossary and have to do these eventually as well.
Questions:
*How are we goint to resolve this issue?
*How can we turn capitalisation off, preferably in a fased way?
*Are there ways to help out with programs?
*How long are we going to discuss this issue before coming to a workable decision. NB not only for the wiktionaries but also the system maintenance?
Thanks,
GerardM
Hai,
On the English wiktionary there has been a longstanding issue with
people not wanting to change en:wiktionary so that articles can start
with a lowercase letter. As the nl:wiktionary has more words in other
languages than in Nederlands, we found that the capitalisation works not
only for Roman characters but also for Cyrilic characters and maybe others
This makes the way we have tried to maintain the capitalisation really
akward. It is a good enough reason for us not to want the capitalisation
anymore. Could someone please turn this function off for us?
Thanks,
GerardM
Since the conversion to UTF-8 the nl:wiktionary (or WikiWoordenboek) had a big growth spurt. Fittingly the 2500th word is לשון־קודש (UTF-8 was needed to create the word).
We have many words in many languages for many languages..
Thanks,
GerardM
Yipeee !
Thanks to Shaihulud, who was so kind to do the technical biz while on holiday, nl:wiktionay is now on UTF-8. I have been adding new words that contain special characters and it works like a dream.
The other good news it that the current content is also really as it should be. So all the information copied from Timwi's website is really looking good. It also means that I can now add new content to other wiktionaries without fear of mucking things up. On that note, there is content on en:wiktionary that is not UTF-8 (English - see the edit page..)
The word that I have done first is Nederlands. :)
http://nl.wiktionary.org/wiki/Nederlands
Thanks,
GerardMnt-Dispo
When I try to reach en:wiktionary.org or nl:, de:, I get an error message: redirection limit exceeded or cookie problems. So I tried Internet Explorer which does not load the page either, no error message though.
Can someone please find out what the problem is ??
Thanks,
GerardM
Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> Ray,
> My point today was that it would be good if all wiktionarie are
> converted to UTF-8. When you read what was said by Tim Starling, it
> refers to UTF-8. That you think that I winge is beside the point, the
> point is that UTF-8 will solve issues. My alphabet soup I acquired the
> hard way, I worked for it and it allows me to say things from
> experience about maintaining data in an IT environment..
>
> If you want to discuss anything meaningfull, talk about UTF-8. The
> rest is bullshit. Argument for: it eases programming and maintenance.
> It allows for the creation of articles with names like ჰოლანდიური or
> ភាសាហុលឍង់េដ or 네델란드어. The only drawback is that these characters
> will not be seen in an URL.
>
> Please be constructive and keep to what is at issue. If you think
> conversion to UTF-8 is not a good move, let us please know why not.
>
> Thanks,
> GerardM
Nobody is seriously arguing against UTF-8, so please don't make up a
story about my being against it. Just curb your impatience.
UTF-8 was not mentioned in Tim's comments. Do I need to qute his entire
comment for you to understand that? My complaint is about a discussion
on one subject which is hijacked to pretend to be something completely
different.
Ec
On the beer parlour of en:wiktionary, Tim Starling says that it would be helpfull if all wiktionaries work in the same way. The article was about UTF-8.
The opportunity now is to have all wiktionaries transfer to UTF-8. This is the only way to have articles with titles like ჰოლანდიური or ភាសាហុលឍង់េដ or 네델란드어. As the purpose of wiktionaries is to have articles of words in any language, it should be obvious that this is the way to go.
PS I would like these articles in nl:wiktionary :) GerardM