Hoi,
I have come to a decision on how I will run the interwiki bot from now on. I
will run the bot on al Wiktionaries and it will see all words on all
Wiktionary projects. In order to fulfil the demand of the Polish Wiktionary,
I will not update the Polish Wiktionary any more. All other Wiktionaries
will see the new articles created on the Polish Wiktionary.
Thanks,
GerardM
On the Wiktionary <http://wiktionary.org/> project I run the interwiki bot.
The process is simple; when an article exists in another language spelled
exactly the same, I create an "interwiki" link. This allows you to see the
information on another language Wiktionary. This process is an automated
process, it works on all Wiktionaries and it is an unattended process.
I have received a request from the Polish Wiktionary to stop adding
interwiki links for the Russian and for the Vietnamese Wiktionary. The
reason given is one of quality. On the Russian Wiktionary many of the
articles are created by a bot and they do not provide good information. An
example is dispersion, <http://ru.wiktionary.org/wiki/dispersion> there is
nothing really in there. The Vietnamese Wiktionary is more problematic
because a bot was used to generate declension and conjugation tables of
Russian words and they got it wrong.
The Russian Wiktionary has some 81.000 empty shells and refuse to remove it.
The Vietnamese are not willing to remove there incorrect data.
I have been asked to stop including the Russian Wiktionary and the
Vietnamese Wiktionary when I run the interwiki process. To be honest, I run
the bot as a service and I do not think it is the right thing to do. I think
the Vietnamese are wrong not to correct the wrong data that they have. I am
less sure about the Russian approach; in essence it is a stub. However,
creating a Wiktionary in this way is like stamp collecting; you can look at
it but there is not information about it.
Given how the process works, I am not sure that I can exclude either the
Russian or the Vietnamese Wiktionary. The way it works is that I run
explicitly on all Wiktionaries. When I exclude Russian or Vietnamese, I will
probably end up removing all references to these projects. They are the
third and fourth Wiktionary is size.
When I do not exclude the Russian and the Vietnamese Wiktionary, the bot may
end up being blocked on the Polish Wiktionary. This will also kill off the
interwiki process.
>From my point of view, using bots to generate content in a Wiktionary only
makes sense when there is at least a link to the word in the base language.
When the initial creation of stubs is followed by the enrichment of these
stubs it is acceptable. For having information that is completely wrong,
there is no excuse.
The question is, will there be a discussion about acceptable practices in
Wiktionary. The question are:
- Can the Polish demand what they do?
- Is having a project that consists mainly of stubs acceptable?
- Is having incorrect data acceptable?
Thanks,
GerardM
PS I copied this from my blog.
I'm (re)sending this to lots of lists -- people, we need more
submissions! Please be bold in sending us your papers -- we'd love to
see you in Taiwan this year. :-)
Please forward to other relevant lists as well! See
http://wikimania2007.wikimedia.org/wiki/Call_for_Participation/distribution
for the ones we've already covered.
Erik
- - - -
Wikimania is an annual global event devoted to Wikipedia and the other
Wikimedia Foundation projects. It is a community event, which is also
open to the public and to researchers. This year's conference will be
held from August 3-5, 2007 in Taipei, Taiwan at Chien Tan Overseas
Youth Activity Center. For more information, please visit the
Wikimania site:
http://wikimania2007.wikimedia.org/
Send your submissions through:
http://wikimania2007.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submission
We are accepting submissions for posters, presentations, workshops,
and discussion groups. We are also accepting nominations for speakers
and speaker panels, and suggestions for other activities. Please note
the details below and be bold in your submissions!
== Important dates ==
* 1 March – 30 April: Submission
* 1 May – 31 May: Feedback and notification of acceptance
* 3 – 5 Aug 2007 : Wikimania
== Conference Themes ==
Submissions should address one or more of the following themes:
* Wikimedia Communities – Interesting projects and particularities
within the communities (we explicitly invite you to present your local
Wikimedia project's community!); policy creation within individual
projects; conflict resolution and community dynamics; reputation and
identity; multilingualism, languages and cultures; social studies.
* Free Content – Open access to information; ways to gather and
distribute free knowledge, usage of the Wikimedia projects in
education, journalism, research; ways to improve content quality and
usability; copyright laws and other legal areas that interfere with
Wikimedia projects.
* Technical infrastructure – Issues related to MediaWiki
development and extensions; Wikimedia hardware layout; new ideas for
development (including usable case studies from other wikis or similar
projects).
Your topic must be related to Wikimedia projects and its communities
or to the creation of free content in general.
== Types of Submissions ==
We are seeking submissions for
* presentations (10–30 minute talks with optional short or full papers)
* posters (printed presentations or visual displays that can stand on their own)
* workshops (30–120 minute session with more involvement of the audience)
* panels (group of 2-5 speakers to discuss on a specific subject)
* Birds-of-a-Feather (BoF) (45-60 minute informal meetup of group
discussion on a particular topic)
* artistic artifacts (plays, competitions, comedy, visualizations, or
other representations of some aspect of the projects)
== Guidelines ==
Wikimania is organized by volunteers, so please help us to minimize
wasted effort by following these guidelines carefully before
submitting and be sure not to forget anything that is mentioned here.
All submissions must explicitly include the following:
* an English title
* a short English abstract of 50 to 100 words. The abstracts should be
provided as plain text, and not as file attachments. This abstract
will be used as public description of your submission in the
conference program
* a detailed description (or full paper) of at least one page (300
words or more). This description will not be published unless you want
it, but used for reviewing your submission. Give an overview of the
areas to be covered or taught. State clearly the relevance to the
Wikimedia projects and whether submission concerns a specific wiki
project. You may use any language, but we strongly suggest English or
Chinese. Full descriptions may include a link to a full paper or
slides in HTML or PDF, if available.
* full name, email address, and a short bio of 1–3 sentences for each
author. You may also add wiki usernames and nicknames.
* the type of submission (presentation, poster, workshop, panel, BoF, artistic)
* the language(s) you are going to talk in (or the language of your poster)
Please tell us with your submission whether you will attend to
Wikimania (a) surely, (b) probably, (c) only if your submission is
accepted, or (d) only if we provide travel and/or accommodation.
Additionally, please specify:
* the target audience you are going to reach and what previous
knowledge is needed
* special requirements (such as equipment for a workshop or panel) if needed
* images or sketches of the poster or artistic artifact if available
* for panel submissions short biographies of each suggested panelist
* whether the presentation is intended to be a specific length.
* BoF proposals should describe the significance of and community
interest in the topic, and name the proposed discussion leader(s).
For poster sessions there are additional guidelines:
http://wikimania2007.wikimedia.org/wiki/Poster_session
Please note that all submissions must be dual licensed under the GNU
Free Documentation License version 1.2 or later and the Creative
Commons Attribution License.
== Submissions ==
Once you are sure you have included all of the required information,
please send your submission by the respective deadline through our
submission system:
http://wikimania2007.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submission
Please do not send submissions by email. If you need help for
translating your work please visit our translation help page.
Questions, but not submissions, may be directed to cfp(a)wikimedia.org.
== Hacking Days ==
Before the main conference there will also be informal Hacking days
for MediaWiki developers who are familiar with the software, If you
are interested in joining it, please visit:
http://wikimania2007.wikimedia.org/wiki/Planning/Hacking_Days_Extra_2007
== See also ==
* About the venue: http://www.cyh.org.tw/
* Brainstorming page for program ideas:
http://wikimania2007.wikimedia.org/wiki/Program_Ideas
* Editable list of attendees: http://wikimania2007.wikimedia.org/wiki/Attendees
* WikiSym 2007 (October 21-23, 2007, Montreal), an alternative wiki
conference: http://www.wikisym.org/ws2007/
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Per the announcement I put in the sitenotice last month, I have locked
the Klingon-language Wiktionary, http://tlh.wiktionary.org/
As far as I know there was never any deliberate intention to have such a
site (it would have been automatically created alongside the Klingon
Wikipedia), and it was forgotten when the Klingon Wikipedia was closed.
As soon as I was notified of its existence I put up the notice that it
would not stay, so anyone working on it would be aware.
The only response I got to my notice was this very rude message, which
was hidden away where I never saw it until today:
http://tlh.wiktionary.org/wiki/lo%27wI%27_ja%27chuq:Brion_VIBBER
It seems pretty clear to me that the site doesn't serve any legitimate
purpose to Wikimedia's mission; while it may be _fun_ it would be better
hosted somewhere else, perhaps whereever the Klingon Wikipedia ended up?
If there's some legitimate reason to reopen it, let me know. We could
hand the question off to the Language Committee if desired.
- -- brion vibber (brion @ wikimedia.org)
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (Darwin)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
iD8DBQFGDe96wRnhpk1wk44RApOyAKCCfGg5T8QbmIplUpZt8rfixdza6gCcClGT
iaxAkmqlLd+T6/tBUXoY4s8=
=Fuk4
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-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: wiktionary-l-bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wiktionary-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] Per conto di wiktionary-l-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org
Inviato: mercoledì 4 aprile 2007 16.59
A: wiktionary-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
Oggetto: Wiktionary-l Digest, Vol 29, Issue 3
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Klingon Wiktionary closed (Dmcdevit)
2. Re: Klingon Wiktionary closed (Oldak Quill)
3. Re: Klingon Wiktionary closed (Muke Tever)
4. Re: Klingon Wiktionary closed (Muke Tever)
5. Re: Klingon Wiktionary closed (Yann Forget)
6. Re: Klingon Wiktionary closed (Muke Tever)
7. Re: Klingon Wiktionary closed (Yann Forget)
8. Re: Klingon Wiktionary closed (Dmcdevit)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 17:28:24 -0700
From: Dmcdevit <dmcdevit(a)cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Wiktionary-l] Klingon Wiktionary closed
To: "The Wiktionary (http://www.wiktionary.org) mailing list"
<wiktionary-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID: <4612F128.4060003(a)cox.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Muke Tever wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 17:20:29 -0600, Dmcdevit <dmcdevit(a)cox.net> wrote:
>
>> Oldak Quill wrote:
>>
>>> I, for one, object to the closure of projects based on elitist
>>> concerns as to the origin of the language. What matters is the place
>>> of the language in the world now. This language is, crucially,
>>> recognised as a language by the International Standardisation
>>> Organisation
>>>
>> There is no sense of "recognition" in the ISO code designations. As they
>> say for the 693-3 codes, "it is a goal for this part of ISO 639 to
>> provide an identifier for every distinct human language that has been
>> documented, whether living, extinct, or constructed, and whether its
>> modality is spoken, written or signed." There are 7,589 currently.
>>
>
> tlh is also in ISO 639-2 as well, whose scope is more limited, codes being
> added to it "when it becomes apparent that a significant body of literature
> in a particular language exists."
>
> The full criteria are here:
> http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/criteria2.html
> (in brief, "that there is a significant body of literature in the language
> or describing the language".)
>
>
>> So I repeat, your choices are either to have a dictionary define wordsusing words it does not define (Klingon words) or to define words (Klingonwords) that cannot be attested according to normal dictionary standards.
>>
>
> First off, what kind of attestation are you seeking here? There are published
> reference books on the language and several translations into Klingon have been made:
> Gilgamesh and a couple of Shakespeare plays are in print; online of course there's
> more, such as extensive selections from the Bible (linguist Nick Nicholas has
> the full text of the book of Mark on his website, among other things)... This is
> as much as if not more than many minority natural languages have.
>
*All* natural languages have a right to be included when they meet the
requirements for starting a new language project, which is part of
Wikimedia's mission to provide the sum of all human knowledge *to every
single person*. That is a false comparison.
So, you have no original literature whatsoever, and a hodgepodge of fan
translations of famous works into this fictional alien language, and
that ought to constitute enough use? Why is it that no one seems able to
tell me how many fluent speakers there are? At least other languages
have educational uses, including cross-lingual communication, ease of
use or learning, simplification of existing languages, etc.
> I agree with Oldak about "elitist concerns as to the origin of the language".
>
I apologize if my concern that the Wikimedia Foundation, the charitable
organization we volunteer for, be used for significant, educational
purposes, as it is intended, appears elitist. That does not fit my
definition of elitism, however, and bandying about the term is just an
ad hominem distraction. This is the most important point. There is a
reason that the MuppetWiki (a fine project, expanding rapidly) belongs
on a non-WMF site like Wikia.
> If Klingon (or any other language) is to be rejected it should be on at least
> moderately objective criteria, which would pertain to the language's present,
> not its origin--the bar can be higher for a constructed language, but it should
> at least be presented an opportunity to rise above its birth.
>
Your notion that Klingon, the language of a fictional alien race on a
popular American television show, has some kind of existence separate
from its origins is absurd. It only needs to be rejected for its
present: which is as a linguistically unimportant, functionally
nonexistent, and educationally useless language to write a dictionary in.
> It seems [from what I can tell now] that the Klingon Wikipedia was closed down not
> because of any demerit in the language itself, but chiefly because it was not being
> used (having 60 articles at time of closing). tlh.wiktionary, it seems, has at
> least two currently-active users (its admins) and 2,311 content pages.
That is not at all my understanding of how the Klingon Wikipedia closed.
There was widespread community opposition. All wikis start small. Worse,
I will note again that this wiki was an accidental creation without the
Board's approval, and they have already voted to close the Klingon
Wikipedia.
Dominic
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 02:21:08 +0100
From: "Oldak Quill" <oldakquill(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Wiktionary-l] Klingon Wiktionary closed
To: "The Wiktionary (http://www.wiktionary.org) mailing list"
<wiktionary-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
<54f6f2050704031821j76eb5967rae17e5a9c4a882ac(a)mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
On 04/04/07, Dmcdevit <dmcdevit(a)cox.net> wrote:
> Muke Tever wrote:
> > I agree with Oldak about "elitist concerns as to the origin of the language".
> >
> I apologize if my concern that the Wikimedia Foundation, the charitable
> organization we volunteer for, be used for significant, educational
> purposes, as it is intended, appears elitist. That does not fit my
> definition of elitism, however, and bandying about the term is just an
> ad hominem distraction. This is the most important point. There is a
> reason that the MuppetWiki (a fine project, expanding rapidly) belongs
> on a non-WMF site like Wikia.
Huh? Since when does "education" preclude the Klingon language? How do
you define "significant"? How is the suggestion of elitism a
distriction? I consider it a problem for Wikimedia that should be
solved. When elitism results in the closure of harmless projects that
could potentially bring more people to Wikimedia (and maximise the use
of our content), it is a problem for the Foundation.
--
Oldak Quill (oldakquill(a)gmail.com)
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 19:45:57 -0600
From: "Muke Tever" <muke(a)frath.net>
Subject: Re: [Wiktionary-l] Klingon Wiktionary closed
To: "The Wiktionary (http://www.wiktionary.org) mailing list"
<wiktionary-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID: <op.tp8kivmc2okkek(a)maadim.hsd1.co.comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Dmcdevit <dmcdevit(a)cox.net> wrote:
>> First off, what kind of attestation are you seeking here? There are published
>> reference books on the language and several translations into Klingon have been made:
>> Gilgamesh and a couple of Shakespeare plays are in print; online of course there's
>> more, such as extensive selections from the Bible (linguist Nick Nicholas has
>> the full text of the book of Mark on his website, among other things)... This is
>> as much as if not more than many minority natural languages have.
>>
> *All* natural languages have a right to be included when they meet the
> requirements for starting a new language project, which is part of
> Wikimedia's mission to provide the sum of all human knowledge *to every
> single person*. That is a false comparison.
Ok, so you're drawing a distinction between natural languages and artificial
languages. That's perfectly fine; I'd support a difference in the rules on
that ground myself. But my response was not to that concern.
> So, you have no original literature whatsoever, and a hodgepodge of fan
> translations of famous works into this fictional alien language, and
> that ought to constitute enough use?
I don't have anything; it's not my language. I responded to your statement
that the words "cannot be attested," with attestation; the concept of 'enough
use' had not yet entered, and if you expect it to be met, you'll have to phrase
it more quantitatively.
> Why is it that no one seems able to tell me how many fluent speakers there are?
"Counting second language speakers is extremely difficult and approximate at best
and would run into the additional problem of deciding how well a person is supposed
to speak the language in order to be counted."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_speaker_data
> At least other languages have educational uses, including cross-lingualcommunication, ease of use or learning, simplification of existing languages, etc.
All right, now you are proposing criteria for acceptable constructed language wikis.
That's fine too, though they are not the currently accepted criteria.
>> I agree with Oldak about "elitist concerns as to the origin of the language".
>
> I apologize if my concern that the Wikimedia Foundation, the charitable
> organization we volunteer for, be used for significant, educational
> purposes, as it is intended, appears elitist.
I wasn't speaking about the Wikimedia Foundation; I'm speaking of your opinion
of the language which seems largely to be based on its origin as the language
of a fictional alien race on a popular American television show, as if this were
somehow a less serious language origin than, say, having been cobbled together in the
altogether serious belief that it would bring about world peace, like several of the
more acceptable alternatives.
> That does not fit my definition of elitism, however, and bandying about the termis just an ad hominem distraction.
The point is to indicate your own argument seems to be rather _ad linguam_ (if I
may so mangle the phrase) -- it seems to be against Klingon because it is Klingon,
not because it meets any objective standard.
>> If Klingon (or any other language) is to be rejected it should be on at least
>> moderately objective criteria, which would pertain to the language's present,
>> not its origin--the bar can be higher for a constructed language, but it should
>> at least be presented an opportunity to rise above its birth.
>
> Your notion that Klingon, the language of a fictional alien race on a
> popular American television show, has some kind of existence separate
> from its origins is absurd.
I hope I didn't indicate I held such a notion. I intended to say its origins are
irrelevant to its status as a language, or ought to be.
> It only needs to be rejected for its present: which is as a linguistically
> unimportant, functionally nonexistent, and educationally useless language towrite a dictionary in.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Language_proposal_policy
indicates that the only additional criterion for a fictional language wiki as opposed
to a natural language one is "a reasonable degree of recognition", not linguistic
importance, functional existence, or educational usefulness. (It also links to
the discussion saying tlh.wikipedia was closed due to inactivity; if there is a more
correct discussion, it may be helpful to update the link appropriately.)
*Muke!
--
website: http://frath.net/
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 19:51:50 -0600
From: "Muke Tever" <muke(a)frath.net>
Subject: Re: [Wiktionary-l] Klingon Wiktionary closed
To: "The Wiktionary (http://www.wiktionary.org) mailing list"
<wiktionary-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID: <op.tp8ksomz2okkek(a)maadim.hsd1.co.comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
GerardM <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> Hoi,
> When having only 60 articles is a criterion for deletion of a Wikipedia
> project, there are many more projects in the danger zone. 50 of the current
> 250 Wikipedias do not have this number of articles. This is as far as I am
> concerned no valid reason.
Of course, if it's a natural language. But in a constructed language I can
see justifying a minimum amount of activity.
*Muke!
--
website: http://frath.net/
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 10:31:47 +0200
From: Yann Forget <yann(a)forget-me.net>
Subject: Re: [Wiktionary-l] Klingon Wiktionary closed
To: wiktionary-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
Message-ID: <46136273.4040402(a)forget-me.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Hello,
Dmcdevit wrote:
(...)
> Your notion that Klingon, the language of a fictional alien race on a
> popular American television show, has some kind of existence separate
> from its origins is absurd. It only needs to be rejected for its
> present: which is as a linguistically unimportant, functionally
> nonexistent, and educationally useless language to write a dictionary in.
I agree with the closing of this Wiktionary, and this argument says it all.
> Dominic
Best regards,
Yann
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 04:35:59 -0600
From: "Muke Tever" <muke(a)frath.net>
Subject: Re: [Wiktionary-l] Klingon Wiktionary closed
To: "The Wiktionary (http://www.wiktionary.org) mailing list"
<wiktionary-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID: <op.tp8819j92okkek(a)maadim.hsd1.co.comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Yann Forget <yann(a)forget-me.net> wrote:
> Dmcdevit wrote:
> (...)
>> Your notion that Klingon, the language of a fictional alien race on a
>> popular American television show, has some kind of existence separate
>> from its origins is absurd. It only needs to be rejected for its
>> present: which is as a linguistically unimportant, functionally
>> nonexistent, and educationally useless language to write a dictionary in.
>
> I agree with the closing of this Wiktionary, and this argument says it all.
It is not an argument, it is rhetoric. And very weak, at that. It can be used
with equal force by the other side, e.g.
>> Our language is considered linguistically unimportant, functionally
>> nonexistent, and educationally useless. It is thus all the more imperative
>> that we produce a dictionary in it.
Prejudice like that against a natural language (which is very often expressed in
the world) would, I hope, never stand here against the opening of a wiki. The only
remaining part of the agreed-with argument is that it is a constructed language, and
we have not been deleting wikis merely because they belong to constructed languages.
*Muke!
--
website: http://frath.net/
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 12:47:48 +0200
From: Yann Forget <yann(a)forget-me.net>
Subject: Re: [Wiktionary-l] Klingon Wiktionary closed
To: "The Wiktionary (http://www.wiktionary.org) mailing list"
<wiktionary-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID: <46138254.3060809(a)forget-me.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Hi,
And claiming the Klingon should be supported by Wikimedia without giving
any information about numbers of speakers, is not rethoric???
I think we don't have the same definition of this word.
Regards,
Yann
Muke Tever wrote:
> Yann Forget <yann(a)forget-me.net> wrote:
>> Dmcdevit wrote:
>> (...)
>>> Your notion that Klingon, the language of a fictional alien race on a
>>> popular American television show, has some kind of existence separate
>>> from its origins is absurd. It only needs to be rejected for its
>>> present: which is as a linguistically unimportant, functionally
>>> nonexistent, and educationally useless language to write a dictionary in.
>> I agree with the closing of this Wiktionary, and this argument says it all.
>
> It is not an argument, it is rhetoric. And very weak, at that. It can be used
> with equal force by the other side, e.g.
> >> Our language is considered linguistically unimportant, functionally
> >> nonexistent, and educationally useless. It is thus all the more imperative
> >> that we produce a dictionary in it.
>
> Prejudice like that against a natural language (which is very often expressed in
> the world) would, I hope, never stand here against the opening of a wiki. The only
> remaining part of the agreed-with argument is that it is a constructed language, and
> we have not been deleting wikis merely because they belong to constructed languages.
>
> *Muke!
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 07:58:49 -0700
From: Dmcdevit <dmcdevit(a)cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Wiktionary-l] Klingon Wiktionary closed
To: "The Wiktionary (http://www.wiktionary.org) mailing list"
<wiktionary-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID: <4613BD29.4060906(a)cox.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Muke Tever wrote:
> Yann Forget <yann(a)forget-me.net> wrote:
>
>> Dmcdevit wrote:
>> (...)
>>
>>> Your notion that Klingon, the language of a fictional alien race on a
>>> popular American television show, has some kind of existence separate
>>> from its origins is absurd. It only needs to be rejected for its
>>> present: which is as a linguistically unimportant, functionally
>>> nonexistent, and educationally useless language to write a dictionary in.
>>>
>> I agree with the closing of this Wiktionary, and this argument says it all.
>>
>
> It is not an argument, it is rhetoric. And very weak, at that. It can be used
> with equal force by the other side, e.g.
> >> Our language is considered linguistically unimportant, functionally
> >> nonexistent, and educationally useless. It is thus all the more imperative
> >> that we produce a dictionary in it.
>
> Prejudice like that against a natural language (which is very often expressed in
> the world) would, I hope, never stand here against the opening of a wiki. The only
> remaining part of the agreed-with argument is that it is a constructed language, and
> we have not been deleting wikis merely because they belong to constructed languages.
>
> *Muke!
>
You are under the misimpression that I don't like Klingon *because* it
is a constructed language. Nowhere have I said that. I have given actual
reasons, including its lack of speakers, lack of literature, lack of
significance, lack of educational use. On the other hand, if your
argument *is* "Our language is considered linguistically unimportant,
functionally nonexistent, and educationally useless. It is thus all the
more imperative that we produce a dictionary in it" that's not a
problem. The problem would be using that argument to create an
admittedly "educationally useless" dictionary as a WMF project rather
than on an external site. Inclusion guidelines are not prejudice; if you
are against any vetting of supposed languages at all, I think you are
fighting a losing battle. Wiktionary is not for promotion of your pet
project, so this is beginning to sound rather like the sort of argument
I hear when I delete some kid's protologism on Wiktionary, of some high
school band on Wikipedia ("The world doesn't know about it/us yet;
that's why we need an article!"). In fact, it *is* important that our
work support educational purposes, and it's not unreasonable to demand that.
Dominic
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End of Wiktionary-l Digest, Vol 29, Issue 3
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I've started the following page:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Open_Source_Toolset
to collect a list of open source tools & open formats that are
commonly used to support Wikimedia projects. Mainly, this is for
external tools, rather than those developed within our community,
though I don't mind if it is expanded to cover both.
The purpose of having this page is to better inform decision-making
processes on all levels:
* directing volunteers who want to help us to work on particularly
useful open source projects
* directing editors to tools that help them with their day-to-day work
* possibly, even (when the Foundation is a bit more sustainable)
considering awarding development grants to some of them, or at least
helping them to pursue them by endorsing their grant proposals to
other organizations
* identifying key "missing pieces" that are not covered or not covered
well by the existing toolset (this might be a separate list).
I know many of you use specialized tools that are not well known.
There are also sure to be glaring omissions in the current list. I
would therefore appreciate all help to complete it.
--
Peace & Love,
Erik
DISCLAIMER: This message does not represent an official position of
the Wikimedia Foundation or its Board of Trustees.
"An old, rigid civilization is reluctantly dying. Something new, open,
free and exciting is waking up." -- Ming the Mechanic