Hoi,
Three people, all very active in Wiktionary, agreed that the pronunciation of names and places are quit different in the non local languages. Many wikipedias add how a place is written in the language where this name is local.
The three people pronounced a few words and, they have been added to commons. I have also been so bold to add these pronunciations to the wikipedias that have an article on these illustrious people; they are Jaap de Hoop Scheffer, Silvio Berlusconi and George Walker Bush. I have added some famous Dutch politicians for good measure and, if you want me to pronounce Dutch words, you can always ask. I am aware that not everyone in a country pronounce things in the same way, but it is most often superior to what you make up if you see the characters that make up the name.
One request, please add those pronunciations of important people, places etc to Commons, there is no better way of learning how something is to be pronounced for someone who is not failiar with your language.
Thanks, GerardM
This is a brilliant idea, I'll try to promote it on the Spanish wiki.
Pedro
On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 22:41:28 +0100, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi,
Three people, all very active in Wiktionary, agreed that the pronunciation of names and places are quit different in the non local languages. Many wikipedias add how a place is written in the language where this name is local.
The three people pronounced a few words and, they have been added to commons. I have also been so bold to add these pronunciations to the wikipedias that have an article on these illustrious people; they are Jaap de Hoop Scheffer, Silvio Berlusconi and George Walker Bush. I have added some famous Dutch politicians for good measure and, if you want me to pronounce Dutch words, you can always ask. I am aware that not everyone in a country pronounce things in the same way, but it is most often superior to what you make up if you see the characters that make up the name.
One request, please add those pronunciations of important people, places etc to Commons, there is no better way of learning how something is to be pronounced for someone who is not failiar with your language.
Thanks, GerardM
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On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 22:41:28 +0100, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
[snip]
One request, please add those pronunciations of important people, places etc to Commons, there is no better way of learning how something is to be pronounced for someone who is not failiar with your language.
Probably this goes without saying, but those interested in this will probably wish to read
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Pronunciation_files_requests
to request pronunciations, to fulfil pronunciation requests, and perhaps add links to pronunciation request pages on their own wikis.
cheers,
Steve
Stephen Forrest wrote:
On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 22:41:28 +0100, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
[snip]
One request, please add those pronunciations of important people, places etc to Commons, there is no better way of learning how something is to be pronounced for someone who is not failiar with your language.
Probably this goes without saying, but those interested in this will probably wish to read
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Pronunciation_files_requests
to request pronunciations, to fulfil pronunciation requests, and perhaps add links to pronunciation request pages on their own wikis.
cheers,
Steve
Hoi Well actually, I request all words in all languages :) This is a not really practical so I started with Dutch politicians that have been categorised on the English wikipedia. I will produce more pronunciations in this way. Basically, everyone knows how much of a mess it is when foreigners try to say something in your language. So have a look at the bigger wikipedia's and start adding those to commons. Add pronunciations and it will take some time before we will be asked to add this missing word or that .. Thanks, Gerard
Sorry, but what is the point here? To provide real pronunciation files in the origin language or to provide the standard pronunciation of the foreing word/name in the target language?
Sl.
V. Ivanov wrote:
Sorry, but what is the point here? To provide real pronunciation files in the origin language or to provide the standard pronunciation of the foreing word/name in the target language?
Sl.
Hoi, For Wikipedia and Wikinews the idea is to have pronunciation files in the original language so I would ask you to pronounce ирон, иронау, ирон æвзаг. For those that do not know Ossetian like me, this should read as Ossetian in Ossetian ;)
From a wiktionary point of view, it makes sense to have "Ossetisch" as well, the pronunciation of this Dutch word can be found here: http://nl.wiktionary.org/wiki/Ossetisch
Thanks, GerardM http://nl.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD_%C3%A6%D0%B2%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%B3&action=edit
I think what he meant is, do we need a file of somebody pronouncing "Gerard Meijssen" the Dutch way on the English wiktionary, or a file of somebody pronouncing the way it is usually pronounced in English?
Jacques Chirac is pronounced /ʤɑk ʃɪ˞ɑk/ in English from my experience, while in French it would be (I think) /ʒɑk ʃɪɾɑk/.
I don't know which side I take, the point of this e-mail was to clarify V. Ivanov's question rather than to state my own opinion, so please don't direct the response to the question at me.
Mark
On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:20:31 +0100, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
V. Ivanov wrote:
Sorry, but what is the point here? To provide real pronunciation files in the origin language or to provide the standard pronunciation of the foreing word/name in the target language?
Sl.
Hoi, For Wikipedia and Wikinews the idea is to have pronunciation files in the original language so I would ask you to pronounce ирон, иронау, ирон æвзаг. For those that do not know Ossetian like me, this should read as Ossetian in Ossetian ;)
From a wiktionary point of view, it makes sense to have "Ossetisch" as well, the pronunciation of this Dutch word can be found here: http://nl.wiktionary.org/wiki/Ossetisch
Thanks, GerardM http://nl.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD_%C3%A6%D0%B2%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%B3&action=edit
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Oops. Make that /ʒɑk ʃɪʁɑk/. How could I forget the French R?
Mark
On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:44:20 -0700, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
I think what he meant is, do we need a file of somebody pronouncing "Gerard Meijssen" the Dutch way on the English wiktionary, or a file of somebody pronouncing the way it is usually pronounced in English?
Jacques Chirac is pronounced /ʤɑk ʃɪ˞ɑk/ in English from my experience, while in French it would be (I think) /ʒɑk ʃɪɾɑk/.
I don't know which side I take, the point of this e-mail was to clarify V. Ivanov's question rather than to state my own opinion, so please don't direct the response to the question at me.
Mark
On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:20:31 +0100, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
V. Ivanov wrote:
Sorry, but what is the point here? To provide real pronunciation files in the origin language or to provide the standard pronunciation of the foreing word/name in the target language?
Sl.
Hoi, For Wikipedia and Wikinews the idea is to have pronunciation files in the original language so I would ask you to pronounce ирон, иронау, ирон æвзаг. For those that do not know Ossetian like me, this should read as Ossetian in Ossetian ;)
From a wiktionary point of view, it makes sense to have "Ossetisch" as well, the pronunciation of this Dutch word can be found here: http://nl.wiktionary.org/wiki/Ossetisch
Thanks, GerardM http://nl.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD_%C3%A6%D0%B2%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%B3&action=edit
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Hoi, I am not an important person. So I will not record my name. Names and words like Rembrandt van Rhijn, Vincent van Gogh, Scheveningen are more relevant. I really want Americans to say Houston or New York and we already have a "George Walker Bush", and need all these other Presidents and famous Americans.. I want to have locations. English locations spoken by an Englishman, Australian places spoken by an Australian. I have done Rotterdam, Amsterdam and Vlissingen...
For nl:wiktionary I record the Dutch words in Commons for the nl: and other wiktionaries; because that is one of the things that it takes to have wiktionary stand out. Yes, I want recordings of words in Hopi too.
Thanks, GerardM
Mark Williamson wrote:
I think what he meant is, do we need a file of somebody pronouncing "Gerard Meijssen" the Dutch way on the English wiktionary, or a file of somebody pronouncing the way it is usually pronounced in English?
Jacques Chirac is pronounced /ʤɑk ʃɪ˞ɑk/ in English from my experience, while in French it would be (I think) /ʒɑk ʃɪɾɑk/.
I don't know which side I take, the point of this e-mail was to clarify V. Ivanov's question rather than to state my own opinion, so please don't direct the response to the question at me.
Mark
On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:20:31 +0100, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
V. Ivanov wrote:
Sorry, but what is the point here? To provide real pronunciation files in the origin language or to provide the standard pronunciation of the foreing word/name in the target language?
Sl.
Hoi, For Wikipedia and Wikinews the idea is to have pronunciation files in the original language so I would ask you to pronounce ирон, иронау, ирон æвзаг. For those that do not know Ossetian like me, this should read as Ossetian in Ossetian ;)
From a wiktionary point of view, it makes sense to have "Ossetisch" as well, the pronunciation of this Dutch word can be found here: http://nl.wiktionary.org/wiki/Ossetisch
Thanks, GerardM http://nl.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD_%C3%A6%D0%B2%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%B3&action=edit
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:44:20 -0700, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
I think what he meant is, do we need a file of somebody pronouncing "Gerard Meijssen" the Dutch way on the English wiktionary, or a file of somebody pronouncing the way it is usually pronounced in English?
Jacques Chirac is pronounced /ʤɑk ʃɪ˞ɑk/ in English from my experience, while in French it would be (I think) /ʒɑk ʃɪɾɑk/.
Although kind of intriguing from a linguist's point of view, knowing how an Englishman pronounces "Jacques Chirac" isn't all that informative - an Englishman will already know, a Frenchman won't care and nor will, say, a Dutchman (unless, as I say, they are enthusiasts of some sort). It also immensely increases the number of target sounds to do it that way: every word available in every language as opposed to every word once (in its own language).
So I think it's best to stick with (and this seems to be what Gerard is describing) one "native" pronunciation for each term.
An amusing anecdote that's kind of relevant though is a piece on Channel 4's coverage of the Tour de France some years back (before they gave up covering it) in which they attempted to work out how to pronounce "Richard Virenque" - they showed a series of some half a dozen French people, all pronouncing it *completely* differently, and concluded that we should carry on using whatever pronunciation seemed best.
The moral of which is probably that we need multiple pronunciations for each term, even within the restriction of them being "native". :)
On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 22:14:27 +0000, Rowan Collins rowan.collins@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:44:20 -0700, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
I think what he meant is, do we need a file of somebody pronouncing "Gerard Meijssen" the Dutch way on the English wiktionary, or a file of somebody pronouncing the way it is usually pronounced in English?
Jacques Chirac is pronounced /ʤɑk ʃɪ˞ɑk/ in English from my experience, while in French it would be (I think) /ʒɑk ʃɪɾɑk/.
Although kind of intriguing from a linguist's point of view, knowing how an Englishman pronounces "Jacques Chirac" isn't all that informative - an Englishman will already know, a Frenchman won't care and nor will, say, a Dutchman (unless, as I say, they are enthusiasts of some sort). It also immensely increases the number of target sounds to do it that way: every word available in every language as opposed to every word once (in its own language).
So I think it's best to stick with (and this seems to be what Gerard is describing) one "native" pronunciation for each term.
An amusing anecdote that's kind of relevant though is a piece on Channel 4's coverage of the Tour de France some years back (before they gave up covering it) in which they attempted to work out how to pronounce "Richard Virenque" - they showed a series of some half a dozen French people, all pronouncing it *completely* differently, and concluded that we should carry on using whatever pronunciation seemed best.
The moral of which is probably that we need multiple pronunciations for each term, even within the restriction of them being "native". :)
Of course, the definitive pronunciation for any person's name is the way that person pronounces it (or maybe the way that person's mother pronounces it :-) ).
For some famous people, we ought to be able to get audio snippets of them pronouncing their own name -- George W. Bush pronounced his own name at his inauguration, didn't he?
Would such a audio snippet fall under fair use or equivalents?
--Rich Holton en.wikipedia:User:Rholton
Richard Holton wrote:
Of course, the definitive pronunciation for any person's name is the way that person pronounces it (or maybe the way that person's mother pronounces it :-) ).
An interesting feature is that some people actually pronounce their name both in a "native-language" way and in an "English-like" way, depending on who they're talking to. This is fairly common among immigrants to the United States and their immediate descendants, at least. So which version do we want then? =]
-Mark
Although kind of intriguing from a linguist's point of view, knowing how an Englishman pronounces "Jacques Chirac" isn't all that informative - an Englishman will already know, a Frenchman won't care and nor will, say, a Dutchman (unless, as I say, they are enthusiasts of some sort). It also immensely increases the number of target sounds to do it that way: every word available in every language as opposed to every word once (in its own language).
But, then, why include a clip on [[wikt:en:Health]] of how "health" is pronounced by an Englishman? If I want to talk to my friend's wife about Jacques Chirac but I have never heard the name before and am not sure to say it /ʤɑk ʃɪrɑk/ or /ʤɑkwɜz ʧɪrɑk/, I would want to know to say it /ʤɑk ʃɪrɑk/ because /ʒɑk ʃɪʁɑk/ will make me sound oversophisticated or pedantic. However, there are still reasons I would want to know the French pronunciation, so I think we should include both.
Obviously, though, for words rather than names, it is only practical to have a recording in the native tongue - I don't think it would be wise to upload an "English" pronunciation of "kyashnyam", a Hopi one alone would be best.
An amusing anecdote that's kind of relevant though is a piece on Channel 4's coverage of the Tour de France some years back (before they gave up covering it) in which they attempted to work out how to pronounce "Richard Virenque" - they showed a series of some half a dozen French people, all pronouncing it *completely* differently, and concluded that we should carry on using whatever pronunciation seemed best.
I would guess /ʁɪʃɑd vɪʁɔ̃k/ (roughly "rissh-shahd virr-rongk"), but my knowledge of French orthography isn't too good. If Vincent is subscribed to this list perhaps he can correct me.
Mark
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