Hi all,
I'm sending this because I noticed a request for a Bosnian Wikisource:
http://wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource:Language_domain_requests#bs.wikisource...
Now, Jimmy Wales said IIRC that it was due to ignorance and that it was a mistake that we had separate Wikipedias for these so-called languages.
For this reason, it strikes me as counterproductive to start up a new project in Bosnian.
Yês, there are already Wikisource subdomains for Croatian and Serbian, which in itself strikes me as unfortunate and counterproductive, but I think that it would be even more counterproductive to promote such a farce of forced separation of what could be fantastic combined efforts when there is a clear path to stop the nonsense without hurting the status quo -- with Wikisource, there is no Bosnian version yet, and Croatian and Serbian versions are small, compared to Wikipedias.
Just as Angela said with regards to Simple English projects (Wikiquotes and Wikibooks), a source is a source. Since Croatian, Bosnian, and Serbian are 99.9999999% mutually intelligible, it seems nonsensical to me to separate Wikisources, given that Wikisource isn't even supposed to have original content.
Now, for all the people out there who would like to tell me that Croatian, Serbian, and Bosnian are really separate languages, that's obviously nonsense.
The best explanation seems to be that it's a single language, called different names by different people.
After all, how else is it possible that people who a decade ago spoke "Serbo-Croatian" now speak a different language? The answer is, it isn't. They still speak the same language, they just call it different things.
Mark
-- If you would like a gmail invite, please send me an e-mail. Si ud. quiere que le envíe una invitación para juntar gmail, envíeme un mensaje. Si vous voulez que je vous envoie une invitation à joindre gmail, envoyez-moi s.v.p un message. Se vce. gostaria que lhe envie um convite para juntar gmail, favor de envie-me uma mensagem. Se vuleti chi vi manu 'n invitu a uniri gmail, mandatimi n messaggiu.
For the moment I thought that it was not you there...
Mark, please, please, please stop to help us. And, please, stop to talk to other people what is the best for us.
Bosniaks should have all projects in their own standard language because it is better to have three small projects where people would want to work then one when people would not want to work. In this moment.
I am sick of your colonialist behaviour. If you really want to help us, please find some programmer who would help us to make MW extensions faster and/or find some mediator who wants to work on relations between our communities.
On 10/28/05, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Hi all,
I'm sending this because I noticed a request for a Bosnian Wikisource:
http://wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource:Language_domain_requests#bs.wikisource...
Now, Jimmy Wales said IIRC that it was due to ignorance and that it was a mistake that we had separate Wikipedias for these so-called languages.
For this reason, it strikes me as counterproductive to start up a new project in Bosnian.
Yês, there are already Wikisource subdomains for Croatian and Serbian, which in itself strikes me as unfortunate and counterproductive, but I think that it would be even more counterproductive to promote such a farce of forced separation of what could be fantastic combined efforts when there is a clear path to stop the nonsense without hurting the status quo -- with Wikisource, there is no Bosnian version yet, and Croatian and Serbian versions are small, compared to Wikipedias.
Just as Angela said with regards to Simple English projects (Wikiquotes and Wikibooks), a source is a source. Since Croatian, Bosnian, and Serbian are 99.9999999% mutually intelligible, it seems nonsensical to me to separate Wikisources, given that Wikisource isn't even supposed to have original content.
Now, for all the people out there who would like to tell me that Croatian, Serbian, and Bosnian are really separate languages, that's obviously nonsense.
The best explanation seems to be that it's a single language, called different names by different people.
After all, how else is it possible that people who a decade ago spoke "Serbo-Croatian" now speak a different language? The answer is, it isn't. They still speak the same language, they just call it different things.
Mark
-- If you would like a gmail invite, please send me an e-mail. Si ud. quiere que le envíe una invitación para juntar gmail, envíeme un mensaje. Si vous voulez que je vous envoie une invitation à joindre gmail, envoyez-moi s.v.p un message. Se vce. gostaria que lhe envie um convite para juntar gmail, favor de envie-me uma mensagem. Se vuleti chi vi manu 'n invitu a uniri gmail, mandatimi n messaggiu. _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Milos Rancic wrote:
Bosniaks should have all projects in their own standard language because it is better to have three small projects where people would want to work then one when people would not want to work. In this moment.
This is debatable. Having 3 projects separated on ethnic/nationalist/political lines is just about the worst possible alternative, IMO, worse even than having no projects, since I cannot see how such a project could ever possibly be a legitimate Wikipedia project with a neutral point of view.
-Mark
On 10/29/05, Delirium delirium@hackish.org wrote:
This is debatable. Having 3 projects separated on ethnic/nationalist/political lines is just about the worst possible alternative, IMO, worse even than having no projects, since I cannot see how such a project could ever possibly be a legitimate Wikipedia project with a neutral point of view.
First of all, Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian are different standard languages. When we make machine translation between those standards, we would be able to think about further steps.
As I can see, English Wikipedia has a lot of disputed pages and it is far of NPOV Wikipedia. We have just different approach to solve our POV pages.
First of all, Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian are different standard languages. When we make machine translation between those standards, we would be able to think about further steps.
It's already quite easy. People pretending that it's not are trying to fend off the inevitable.
As I can see, English Wikipedia has a lot of disputed pages and it is far of NPOV Wikipedia. We have just different approach to solve our POV pages.
The difference is that en.wiki has people of diverse opinions and cultures. bs:, hr:, and sr:, on the other hand, are largely divided by nationality. Pages on en.wiki that are _marked_ as POV are only tagged as such because of our diversity. Such a page on a less diverse Wikipedia is much less likely to be tagged.
MArk
Delirium wrote:
Milos Rancic wrote:
Bosniaks should have all projects in their own standard language because it is better to have three small projects where people would want to work then one when people would not want to work. In this moment.
This is debatable. Having 3 projects separated on ethnic/nationalist/political lines is just about the worst possible alternative, IMO, worse even than having no projects, since I cannot see how such a project could ever possibly be a legitimate Wikipedia project with a neutral point of view.
This turn of events justifies my continued opposition to separate language domains for Wikisource. (Mark, the discussion is about Wikisource, not Wikipedia.) What you say about Wikipedia, however, holds even more strongly for Wikisource. Wikisource contains mostly old documents. These were written as they were written by the original published author. NPOV cannot apply to their content; it can only apply to added explanatory text.
Since the Serbian, Bosnian and Croatian languages are mutually intelligible it makes sense that the literature in each of these languages be easily available to all. Branko Radievi, Ksaver andor Gjalski and Anton Medved all wrote in different dialects. Is it not an advantage to be able to see them as unifying forces rather than tools for petty nationalism?
I absolutely do not support this kind of nationalistic fragmentation. I say this not just about the Yugoslav languages, but also about Indonesian/Malay and all the others that have been mentioned in this way. While there may be practical difficulties to attaining this in Wikipedia this is far from the case in Wikisource.
Ec
Mark, please, please, please stop to help us. And, please, stop to talk to other people what is the best for us.
...
This is quite interesting to me as you seemed quite a bit more gracious before I became involved in the Template:User_zb discussion, which frankly has nothing to do with the wider discussion about bs:, sr:, hr:, and sh:.
Bosniaks should have all projects in their own standard language because it is better to have three small projects where people would want to work then one when people would not want to work. In this moment.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this.
I am sick of your colonialist behaviour. If you really want to help us, please find some programmer who would help us to make MW extensions faster and/or find some mediator who wants to work on relations between our communities.
What? MediaWiki extensions are not difficult. The problem is that currently everything else is at a standstill, so there's really not much point in having a MW extension so long as there is 0 use for it.
Mark
I felt that another reply was in order due to some issues I didn't address in the first one.
Mark, please, please, please stop to help us. And, please, stop to talk to other people what is the best for us.
Assuming that you meant "please stop helping us" as opposed to "please stop and help us" (which is really what "please stop to help us" means -- ie, "please stop, so that you may help us", which is essentially the opposite), I'm curious as to your definition of "us".
In a Wiki environ
Bosniaks should have all projects in their own standard language because it is better to have three small projects where people would want to work then one when people would not want to work. In this moment.
Ahh, but as Bosnians will tell you, it's a "Bosnian language" (Bosanski) and not "Bosniak language" (Bosnjacki). "Bosanski" would, as some have noted, imply that it is limited to Bosnia and does not extend to Bosniaks in Serbia, Montenegro, Croatia, or elsewhere, however when you're talking about the standard language it is Bosnian because that is the official name.
Now, if you discard the issue of what to call the language, I don't think people would much mind to work on a single project. Whatever reasons there may be not to work on a single Wikipedia are largely done away with by Wikisource -- Wikisource is for _sources_, not original content. Thus, as far as I can tell, conversion is neither nessecary nor desirable. Croatian sources should display, for all users, in Croatian (ie, Iyekavian Latin of the Croatian standard), and Serbian Cyrillic should display for all users in Serbian Cyrillic, although of course translations can be made.
Please remember that just a few months ago, ALL languages shared a single Wikisource Wiki. Given that fact, I think it's particularly outrageous on your part to claim that Serbian, Bosnian, and Croatian all need separate Wikisources, given the plurality which still exists at the main Wikisource.
I am sick of your colonialist behaviour. If you really want to help us, please find some programmer who would help us to make MW extensions faster and/or find some mediator who wants to work on relations between our communities.
What is your definition of "colonialist"? According to my dictionary, it's "advocate of the exploitation by a stronger country of weaker one; the use of the weaker country's resources to strengthen and enrich the stronger country." Now, what have I done that has evidenced _that_??
Mark
On 10/28/05, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Hi all,
I'm sending this because I noticed a request for a Bosnian Wikisource:
http://wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource:Language_domain_requests#bs.wikisource...
Now, Jimmy Wales said IIRC that it was due to ignorance and that it was a mistake that we had separate Wikipedias for these so-called languages.
For this reason, it strikes me as counterproductive to start up a new project in Bosnian.
Yês, there are already Wikisource subdomains for Croatian and Serbian, which in itself strikes me as unfortunate and counterproductive, but I think that it would be even more counterproductive to promote such a farce of forced separation of what could be fantastic combined efforts when there is a clear path to stop the nonsense without hurting the status quo -- with Wikisource, there is no Bosnian version yet, and Croatian and Serbian versions are small, compared to Wikipedias.
Just as Angela said with regards to Simple English projects (Wikiquotes and Wikibooks), a source is a source. Since Croatian, Bosnian, and Serbian are 99.9999999% mutually intelligible, it seems nonsensical to me to separate Wikisources, given that Wikisource isn't even supposed to have original content.
Now, for all the people out there who would like to tell me that Croatian, Serbian, and Bosnian are really separate languages, that's obviously nonsense.
The best explanation seems to be that it's a single language, called different names by different people.
After all, how else is it possible that people who a decade ago spoke "Serbo-Croatian" now speak a different language? The answer is, it isn't. They still speak the same language, they just call it different things.
Mark
-- If you would like a gmail invite, please send me an e-mail. Si ud. quiere que le envíe una invitación para juntar gmail, envíeme un mensaje. Si vous voulez que je vous envoie une invitation à joindre gmail, envoyez-moi s.v.p un message. Se vce. gostaria que lhe envie um convite para juntar gmail, favor de envie-me uma mensagem. Se vuleti chi vi manu 'n invitu a uniri gmail, mandatimi n messaggiu. _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
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