My own thoughts on this, which I also expressed on the meta page:
1. There is plenty of material out that that is already public domain. Part of the problem is that it can take forever and a day to digitize it all. In the case of books and magazines, digitization often involves destroying the hard copies in the process. There are, however, specialized scanners that can do the work without ruining the books themselves. These are expensive (about US $30,000 a machine). Ten machines, strategically located around the world, along with student staff to operate them around the clock could help to preserve these texts and store them for prosperity. Additional people (paid and volunteer) will be needed to OCR, proof, and hyperlink the material to ensure that it doesn't get lost in a glut of material (I have visions of the final scene of Raiders of the Lost Ark, when the Ark was finally stored in some crate in an army warehouse).
2. While OCR capacities exist for some languages, they do not exist for other languages, where the material is much more likely to get lost. Manuscripts in Tibetan monasteries, for example, can be scanend but not OCRed easily. To make this information available, developers should be paid to create adequate OCR tools for these languages. Rough cost: $5 million.
3. Music has been recorded around the world for well over a century, yet many of the early recordings are being lost, especially those on wax cylinders and porcelain records. Preservation includes locating, identifying, and remastering. People must be trained to do this. Rough cost: $35 million over two years.
4. This is true of old films as well. Celluloid copies are extremely rare and extremely flammable. Restoration is exceedingly costly. For example, [[Theda Bara]] is a well-known vamp of early Hollywood (the word "vamp" was first used to describe her), yet none of her films survive, and they were made less than a hundred years ago. Films are international, they include important historic documents such as newsreels, and they are being lost every day. Today, most preservation work is being done by major studios, since it is so costly. In other words, they are taking important works now in the public domain, restoring them, and contending that the restoration is an original work, i.e., another hundred years at least until some Vigo or Charlie Chaplin films enter the public domain ... and little attention is being paid to newsreels of events like the Russian revolution, World War I, etc. Like music, people should be offered scholarships to learn the art of film restoration and work on these projects. Until this happens it can be outsourced. Rough cost: $50 million.
5. To ensure all of this remains accessible, we will need a LOT of servers and bandwidth: Initial outlay: $10 million.
Total $100 million dollars, spent over 5 years. Costs include staffing, identifying prospective targets, transportation, overhead, etc. Just coordinating a project of this scope will take a lot of effort.
And there is competition too. As an example, _http://historical.library.cornell.edu/IWP/_ (http://historical.library.cornell.edu/IWP/) is a collection of Internation Women's Journals, some of which are very important historically. They are already scanned, but they are inaccessible because a private company has (rightfully or wrongfully) copyrighted the scans.
Lots to be done. You will see how quickly $100 million can be spent.
Danny
In a message dated 10/15/2006 11:27:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jwales@wikia.com writes:
I would like to gather from the community some examples of works you would like to see made free, works that we are not doing a good job of generating free replacements for, works that could in theory be purchased and freed.
Dream big. Imagine there existed a budget of $100 million to purchase copyrights to be made available under a free license. What would you like to see purchased and released under a free license?
Photos libraries? textbooks? newspaper archives? Be bold, be specific, be general, brainstorm, have fun with it.
I was recently asked this question by someone who is potentially in a position to make this happen, and he wanted to know what we need, what we dream of, that we can't accomplish on our own, or that we would expect to take a long time to accomplish on our own.
--Jimbo _______________________________________________ Commons-l mailing list Commons-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
Hi,
Danny tells it right. I have little to add to his mail.
daniwo59@aol.com a écrit :
My own thoughts on this, which I also expressed on the meta page:
- There is plenty of material out that that is already public domain.
Part of the problem is that it can take forever and a day to digitize it all. In the case of books and magazines, digitization often involves destroying the hard copies in the process. There are, however, specialized scanners that can do the work without ruining the books themselves. These are expensive (about US $30,000 a machine). Ten machines, strategically located around the world, along with student staff to operate them around the clock could help to preserve these texts and store them for prosperity. Additional people (paid and volunteer) will be needed to OCR, proof, and hyperlink the material to ensure that it doesn't get lost in a glut of material (I have visions of the final scene of Raiders of the Lost Ark, when the Ark was finally stored in some crate in an army warehouse).
- While OCR capacities exist for some languages, they do not exist for
other languages, where the material is much more likely to get lost. Manuscripts in Tibetan monasteries, for example, can be scanend but not OCRed easily. To make this information available, developers should be paid to create adequate OCR tools for these languages. Rough cost: $5 million.
Much of the limits of Wikisource now is on the capability to scan and ocr documents. There is no good free OCR software, apart the new software recently released to GPL by Google, but it works only for English and has still limitations. So developing a good free and multilingual OCR software would be my priority. AFAIK there is no good OCR software (free or not) for any Indian languages, including Sanskrit. I have never seen any for Tibetan either.
But having a software is not enough. A few OCR servers managed by the Foundation where anyone can sent an automated OCR request would be very useful. There are already proprietary OCR software who can do that.
- Music has been recorded around the world for well over a century, yet
many of the early recordings are being lost, especially those on wax cylinders and porcelain records. Preservation includes locating, identifying, and remastering. People must be trained to do this. Rough cost: $35 million over two years.
- This is true of old films as well. Celluloid copies are extremely
rare and extremely flammable. Restoration is exceedingly costly. For example, [[Theda Bara]] is a well-known vamp of early Hollywood (the word "vamp" was first used to describe her), yet none of her films survive, and they were made less than a hundred years ago. Films are international, they include important historic documents such as newsreels, and they are being lost every day. Today, most preservation work is being done by major studios, since it is so costly. In other words, they are taking important works now in the public domain, restoring them, and contending that the restoration is an original work, i.e., another hundred years at least until some Vigo or Charlie Chaplin films enter the public domain ... and little attention is being paid to newsreels of events like the Russian revolution, World War I, etc. Like music, people should be offered scholarships to learn the art of film restoration and work on these projects. Until this happens it can be outsourced. Rough cost: $50 million.
I would add a special request for some of Cartier-Bresson photographs of Gandhi's funerals. I would have said a copy of the Encyclopedia of the Enlightment (1750, by Diderot and d'Alembert), but we already have it. ;o)
- To ensure all of this remains accessible, we will need a LOT of
servers and bandwidth: Initial outlay: $10 million.
Yes, it's important not to forget that point.
Total $100 million dollars, spent over 5 years. Costs include staffing, identifying prospective targets, transportation, overhead, etc. Just coordinating a project of this scope will take a lot of effort.
Yes, I would generally put more money on people's work than on documents.
And there is competition too. As an example, http://historical.library.cornell.edu/IWP/ is a collection of Internation Women's Journals, some of which are very important historically. They are already scanned, but they are inaccessible because a private company has (rightfully or wrongfully) copyrighted the scans.
Lots to be done. You will see how quickly $100 million can be spent.
Danny
In a message dated 10/15/2006 11:27:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jwales@wikia.com writes:
I would like to gather from the community some examples of works you would like to see made free, works that we are not doing a good job of generating free replacements for, works that could in theory be purchased and freed. Dream big. Imagine there existed a budget of $100 million to purchase copyrights to be made available under a free license. What would you like to see purchased and released under a free license? Photos libraries? textbooks? newspaper archives? Be bold, be specific, be general, brainstorm, have fun with it. I was recently asked this question by someone who is potentially in a position to make this happen, and he wanted to know what we need, what we dream of, that we can't accomplish on our own, or that we would expect to take a long time to accomplish on our own.
Yes, fun has just started.
--Jimbo
Regards,
Yann
On 16/10/06, Yann Forget yann@forget-me.net wrote:
- While OCR capacities exist for some languages, they do not exist for
other languages, where the material is much more likely to get lost. Manuscripts in Tibetan monasteries, for example, can be scanend but not OCRed easily. To make this information available, developers should be paid to create adequate OCR tools for these languages. Rough cost: $5 million.
Much of the limits of Wikisource now is on the capability to scan and ocr documents. There is no good free OCR software, apart the new software recently released to GPL by Google, but it works only for English and has still limitations. So developing a good free and multilingual OCR software would be my priority. AFAIK there is no good OCR software (free or not) for any Indian languages, including Sanskrit. I have never seen any for Tibetan either.
But having a software is not enough. A few OCR servers managed by the Foundation where anyone can sent an automated OCR request would be very useful. There are already proprietary OCR software who can do that.
This is a very, very, very good idea. Having a dedicated system to input TIFF images (or the like) and spit out high-grade OCR, rather than just relying on whatever the scanning volunteer can come up with, would help the wikisource-like projects leap ahead.
...has anyone proposed this to Project Gutenberg? If they can get the money together, it might free up an *awful* lot of their volunteer time.
Hi Guys,
I am a new member of the wikipedia society. I have a plan to start wikipedia in a new language. Please give me any suggestion.
On 16/10/06, Yann Forget yann@forget-me.net wrote:
Hi,
Danny tells it right. I have little to add to his mail.
daniwo59@aol.com a écrit :
My own thoughts on this, which I also expressed on the meta page:
- There is plenty of material out that that is already public domain.
Part of the problem is that it can take forever and a day to digitize it all. In the case of books and magazines, digitization often involves destroying the hard copies in the process. There are, however, specialized scanners that can do the work without ruining the books themselves. These are expensive (about US $30,000 a machine). Ten machines, strategically located around the world, along with student staff to operate them around the clock could help to preserve these texts and store them for prosperity. Additional people (paid and volunteer) will be needed to OCR, proof, and hyperlink the material to ensure that it doesn't get lost in a glut of material (I have visions of the final scene of Raiders of the Lost Ark, when the Ark was finally stored in some crate in an army warehouse).
- While OCR capacities exist for some languages, they do not exist for
other languages, where the material is much more likely to get lost. Manuscripts in Tibetan monasteries, for example, can be scanend but not OCRed easily. To make this information available, developers should be paid to create adequate OCR tools for these languages. Rough cost: $5 million.
Much of the limits of Wikisource now is on the capability to scan and ocr documents. There is no good free OCR software, apart the new software recently released to GPL by Google, but it works only for English and has still limitations. So developing a good free and multilingual OCR software would be my priority. AFAIK there is no good OCR software (free or not) for any Indian languages, including Sanskrit. I have never seen any for Tibetan either.
But having a software is not enough. A few OCR servers managed by the Foundation where anyone can sent an automated OCR request would be very useful. There are already proprietary OCR software who can do that.
- Music has been recorded around the world for well over a century, yet
many of the early recordings are being lost, especially those on wax cylinders and porcelain records. Preservation includes locating, identifying, and remastering. People must be trained to do this. Rough cost: $35 million over two years.
- This is true of old films as well. Celluloid copies are extremely
rare and extremely flammable. Restoration is exceedingly costly. For example, [[Theda Bara]] is a well-known vamp of early Hollywood (the word "vamp" was first used to describe her), yet none of her films survive, and they were made less than a hundred years ago. Films are international, they include important historic documents such as newsreels, and they are being lost every day. Today, most preservation work is being done by major studios, since it is so costly. In other words, they are taking important works now in the public domain, restoring them, and contending that the restoration is an original work, i.e., another hundred years at least until some Vigo or Charlie Chaplin films enter the public domain ... and little attention is being paid to newsreels of events like the Russian revolution, World War I, etc. Like music, people should be offered scholarships to learn the art of film restoration and work on these projects. Until this happens it can be outsourced. Rough cost: $50 million.
I would add a special request for some of Cartier-Bresson photographs of Gandhi's funerals. I would have said a copy of the Encyclopedia of the Enlightment (1750, by Diderot and d'Alembert), but we already have it. ;o)
- To ensure all of this remains accessible, we will need a LOT of
servers and bandwidth: Initial outlay: $10 million.
Yes, it's important not to forget that point.
Total $100 million dollars, spent over 5 years. Costs include staffing, identifying prospective targets, transportation, overhead, etc. Just coordinating a project of this scope will take a lot of effort.
Yes, I would generally put more money on people's work than on documents.
And there is competition too. As an example, http://historical.library.cornell.edu/IWP/ is a collection of Internation Women's Journals, some of which are very important historically. They are already scanned, but they are inaccessible because a private company has (rightfully or wrongfully) copyrighted the scans.
Lots to be done. You will see how quickly $100 million can be spent.
Danny
In a message dated 10/15/2006 11:27:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jwales@wikia.com writes:
I would like to gather from the community some examples of works you would like to see made free, works that we are not doing a good job
of
generating free replacements for, works that could in theory be purchased and freed. Dream big. Imagine there existed a budget of $100 million to
purchase
copyrights to be made available under a free license. What would
you
like to see purchased and released under a free license? Photos libraries? textbooks? newspaper archives? Be bold, be
specific,
be general, brainstorm, have fun with it. I was recently asked this question by someone who is potentially in
a
position to make this happen, and he wanted to know what we need,
what
we dream of, that we can't accomplish on our own, or that we would expect to take a long time to accomplish on our own.
Yes, fun has just started.
--Jimbo
Regards,
Yann _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Emma wrote:
Hi Guys,
I am a new member of the wikipedia society. I have a plan to start wikipedia in a new language. Please give me any suggestion.
1. What language?
2. How many people speak it?
3. Do we have it already?
4. See http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages
how much time does it takes to start new wiki (test wiki started one year ago)?
Arns
2006/10/17, Alphax (Wikipedia email) alphasigmax@gmail.com:
Emma wrote:
Hi Guys,
I am a new member of the wikipedia society. I have a plan to start
wikipedia
in a new language. Please give me any suggestion.
What language?
How many people speak it?
Do we have it already?
See http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages
-- Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia "We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Hoi, What Wiki are you talking about? What language, what project ? Thanks, GerardM
Zordsdavini iz Litvy wrote:
how much time does it takes to start new wiki (test wiki started one year ago)?
Arns
2006/10/17, Alphax (Wikipedia email) alphasigmax@gmail.com:
Emma wrote:
Hi Guys,
I am a new member of the wikipedia society. I have a plan to start
wikipedia
in a new language. Please give me any suggestion.
What language?
How many people speak it?
Do we have it already?
See http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages
About emma - I don't know. But I am speaking about latgalian wikipedia :)
Arns
2006/10/17, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, What Wiki are you talking about? What language, what project ? Thanks, GerardM
Zordsdavini iz Litvy wrote:
how much time does it takes to start new wiki (test wiki started one
year
ago)?
Arns
2006/10/17, Alphax (Wikipedia email) alphasigmax@gmail.com:
Emma wrote:
Hi Guys,
I am a new member of the wikipedia society. I have a plan to start
wikipedia
in a new language. Please give me any suggestion.
What language?
How many people speak it?
Do we have it already?
See http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Hoi, According to Ethnologue Latgalian is a dialect of Latvian. From my point of view, there is not even a proposed code to be used for your proposed Wikipedia that would be acceptable. Acceptable would be something like "lv-latg" or "lav-latg" .. Thanks, GerardM
On 10/17/06, Zordsdavini iz Litvy zordsdavini@gmail.com wrote:
About emma - I don't know. But I am speaking about latgalian wikipedia :)
Arns
2006/10/17, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, What Wiki are you talking about? What language, what project ? Thanks, GerardM
Zordsdavini iz Litvy wrote:
how much time does it takes to start new wiki (test wiki started one
year
ago)?
Arns
2006/10/17, Alphax (Wikipedia email) alphasigmax@gmail.com:
Emma wrote:
Hi Guys,
I am a new member of the wikipedia society. I have a plan to start
wikipedia
in a new language. Please give me any suggestion.
What language?
How many people speak it?
Do we have it already?
See http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- Ok^ ek^ besla ikv Olmok Vzauep^evk :) _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
On 10/17/06, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, According to Ethnologue Latgalian is a dialect of Latvian. From my point of view, there is not even a proposed code to be used for your proposed Wikipedia that would be acceptable. Acceptable would be something like "lv-latg" or "lav-latg" ..
There's a test wiki at http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/ltg The code bat-ltv has been suggested.
Angela
Hoi, The code bat is a "collective code" for Baltic (other). Latgalian however is considered a dialect of Latvian and therefore it is not "other".
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=lav http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=bat Thanks, GerardM
On 10/17/06, Angela beesley@gmail.com wrote:
On 10/17/06, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, According to Ethnologue Latgalian is a dialect of Latvian. From my point
of
view, there is not even a proposed code to be used for your proposed Wikipedia that would be acceptable. Acceptable would be something like "lv-latg" or "lav-latg" ..
There's a test wiki at http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/ltg The code bat-ltv has been suggested.
Angela
-- Angela Beesley http://wikia.com | http://a.nge.la _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
latgalian has long tradition of writing system. It was in 1918-1944 second official language. Considering of dialect status is political. And there are very active people which are working on latgalian language life. It's dialect like neopolitanian or venecian. We say it's the language.
Arns
2006/10/17, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, The code bat is a "collective code" for Baltic (other). Latgalian however is considered a dialect of Latvian and therefore it is not "other".
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=lav http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=bat Thanks, GerardM
On 10/17/06, Angela beesley@gmail.com wrote:
On 10/17/06, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, According to Ethnologue Latgalian is a dialect of Latvian. From my
point
of
view, there is not even a proposed code to be used for your proposed Wikipedia that would be acceptable. Acceptable would be something like "lv-latg" or "lav-latg" ..
There's a test wiki at http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/ltg The code bat-ltv has been suggested.
Angela
-- Angela Beesley http://wikia.com | http://a.nge.la _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Hoi, There are two issues. * What/ is/ the code for the moment * Get recognition for Latgalian as a language.
People have considered languages like Min-Nan and Yue as a dialect of Chinese for a long time. They HAD to use codes like zh-min-nan because this was necessary to comply with the standards. At this moment we have 7602 languages that are recognised in ISO-639-3. This is a big improvement over what was in ISO-639-2. The ISO-639-3 codes will become part of how languages are seen in the near future on the Internet. I am afraid that Latgalian is at this moment considered a dialect of Latvian. I am also sure that there are many other "languages/dialects" that are in a similar situation. Either because people are afronted because what it considers a language they consider a dialect or the other way around. There are also many people who consider something a dialect of for instance Italian while everybody knows that Italian was constructed after the unification of Italy and, that Italian is based on Florentine. The point I am making here there is a lot of confusion and there is a lot of posturing based on bad information. Having to base the code for Latgalian on Latvian is the best for the moment.
When you consider Latgalian a language, there are processes open to us to have this considered by organisations like Ethnologue and ISO. We have contacts that may help us achieve this. In order to get to that stage, it is necessary to jump through certain hoops. One of these is to demonstrate that there is indeed this difference that warrants Latgalian to be considered a language. Aspects of this are also showing literature and current use of the language. One of the first resources would be a Swadesh list where both Latvian and Latgalian can be compared.
FYI I am from an area of the Netherlands; Westfriesland where they used to speak a language; Westfries. It has a literature; it has a grammar it is not understood by people who speak Dutch. There are dialects of Westfries there are dictionaries of Westfries and there are revival societies that give cabaret performances in Westfries. At some stage I am sure that someone will ask for a Wikipedia in Westfries. I would not stop them. I KNOW that it takes relatively little effort to make the case for Westfries. In WiktionaryZ I would welcome dictionaries in Westfries or Latgalian... NB Westfries is not West Frisian .. which imho is a complete misnomer.
Thanks, GerardM
Zordsdavini iz Litvy wrote:
latgalian has long tradition of writing system. It was in 1918-1944 second official language. Considering of dialect status is political. And there are very active people which are working on latgalian language life. It's dialect like neopolitanian or venecian. We say it's the language.
Arns
2006/10/17, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, The code bat is a "collective code" for Baltic (other). Latgalian however is considered a dialect of Latvian and therefore it is not "other".
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=lav http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=bat Thanks, GerardM
On 10/17/06, Angela beesley@gmail.com wrote:
On 10/17/06, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, According to Ethnologue Latgalian is a dialect of Latvian. From my
point
of
view, there is not even a proposed code to be used for your proposed Wikipedia that would be acceptable. Acceptable would be something like "lv-latg" or "lav-latg" ..
There's a test wiki at http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/ltg The code bat-ltv has been suggested.
Angela
Latgalian is going in the same way as Samogitian. Soon Samogitian will have iso. It will be ZOG. For now it use bat-smg. The latgalian will have iso, too, I hope because Latgalian have more tradition than Samogitian. When Samogitian wiki was starting we decided to use bat-smg. I think the best code for now is bat-ltg. To write about dictionary differences can proposer. I'll tell him.
Arns
2006/10/17, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, There are two issues.
- What/ is/ the code for the moment
- Get recognition for Latgalian as a language.
People have considered languages like Min-Nan and Yue as a dialect of Chinese for a long time. They HAD to use codes like zh-min-nan because this was necessary to comply with the standards. At this moment we have 7602 languages that are recognised in ISO-639-3. This is a big improvement over what was in ISO-639-2. The ISO-639-3 codes will become part of how languages are seen in the near future on the Internet. I am afraid that Latgalian is at this moment considered a dialect of Latvian. I am also sure that there are many other "languages/dialects" that are in a similar situation. Either because people are afronted because what it considers a language they consider a dialect or the other way around. There are also many people who consider something a dialect of for instance Italian while everybody knows that Italian was constructed after the unification of Italy and, that Italian is based on Florentine. The point I am making here there is a lot of confusion and there is a lot of posturing based on bad information. Having to base the code for Latgalian on Latvian is the best for the moment.
When you consider Latgalian a language, there are processes open to us to have this considered by organisations like Ethnologue and ISO. We have contacts that may help us achieve this. In order to get to that stage, it is necessary to jump through certain hoops. One of these is to demonstrate that there is indeed this difference that warrants Latgalian to be considered a language. Aspects of this are also showing literature and current use of the language. One of the first resources would be a Swadesh list where both Latvian and Latgalian can be compared.
FYI I am from an area of the Netherlands; Westfriesland where they used to speak a language; Westfries. It has a literature; it has a grammar it is not understood by people who speak Dutch. There are dialects of Westfries there are dictionaries of Westfries and there are revival societies that give cabaret performances in Westfries. At some stage I am sure that someone will ask for a Wikipedia in Westfries. I would not stop them. I KNOW that it takes relatively little effort to make the case for Westfries. In WiktionaryZ I would welcome dictionaries in Westfries or Latgalian... NB Westfries is not West Frisian .. which imho is a complete misnomer.
Thanks, GerardM
Zordsdavini iz Litvy wrote:
latgalian has long tradition of writing system. It was in 1918-1944
second
official language. Considering of dialect status is political. And there
are
very active people which are working on latgalian language life. It's dialect like neopolitanian or venecian. We say it's the language.
Arns
2006/10/17, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, The code bat is a "collective code" for Baltic (other). Latgalian
however
is considered a dialect of Latvian and therefore it is not "other".
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=lav http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=bat Thanks, GerardM
On 10/17/06, Angela beesley@gmail.com wrote:
On 10/17/06, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, According to Ethnologue Latgalian is a dialect of Latvian. From my
point
of
view, there is not even a proposed code to be used for your proposed Wikipedia that would be acceptable. Acceptable would be something
like
"lv-latg" or "lav-latg" ..
There's a test wiki at http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/ltg The code bat-ltv has been suggested.
Angela
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Arns has a really good point. This is based on precedent.
While we do try to follow certain conventions where possible, we do have some inconsistencies with standards. But we're not ISOpedia. Whether we conform to standards or not is our own choice.
In the past, we have generally had codes in the form of fiu-vro, bat-smg, and map-bms.
This is despite the fact that Võro, Samogitian, and Banyumasan are considered by the Ethnologue (and many others) to be dialects of Estonian, Lithuanian, and Javanese respectively.
We are not perfect.
Mark
On 17/10/06, Zordsdavini iz Litvy zordsdavini@gmail.com wrote:
Latgalian is going in the same way as Samogitian. Soon Samogitian will have iso. It will be ZOG. For now it use bat-smg. The latgalian will have iso, too, I hope because Latgalian have more tradition than Samogitian. When Samogitian wiki was starting we decided to use bat-smg. I think the best code for now is bat-ltg. To write about dictionary differences can proposer. I'll tell him.
Arns
2006/10/17, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, There are two issues.
- What/ is/ the code for the moment
- Get recognition for Latgalian as a language.
People have considered languages like Min-Nan and Yue as a dialect of Chinese for a long time. They HAD to use codes like zh-min-nan because this was necessary to comply with the standards. At this moment we have 7602 languages that are recognised in ISO-639-3. This is a big improvement over what was in ISO-639-2. The ISO-639-3 codes will become part of how languages are seen in the near future on the Internet. I am afraid that Latgalian is at this moment considered a dialect of Latvian. I am also sure that there are many other "languages/dialects" that are in a similar situation. Either because people are afronted because what it considers a language they consider a dialect or the other way around. There are also many people who consider something a dialect of for instance Italian while everybody knows that Italian was constructed after the unification of Italy and, that Italian is based on Florentine. The point I am making here there is a lot of confusion and there is a lot of posturing based on bad information. Having to base the code for Latgalian on Latvian is the best for the moment.
When you consider Latgalian a language, there are processes open to us to have this considered by organisations like Ethnologue and ISO. We have contacts that may help us achieve this. In order to get to that stage, it is necessary to jump through certain hoops. One of these is to demonstrate that there is indeed this difference that warrants Latgalian to be considered a language. Aspects of this are also showing literature and current use of the language. One of the first resources would be a Swadesh list where both Latvian and Latgalian can be compared.
FYI I am from an area of the Netherlands; Westfriesland where they used to speak a language; Westfries. It has a literature; it has a grammar it is not understood by people who speak Dutch. There are dialects of Westfries there are dictionaries of Westfries and there are revival societies that give cabaret performances in Westfries. At some stage I am sure that someone will ask for a Wikipedia in Westfries. I would not stop them. I KNOW that it takes relatively little effort to make the case for Westfries. In WiktionaryZ I would welcome dictionaries in Westfries or Latgalian... NB Westfries is not West Frisian .. which imho is a complete misnomer.
Thanks, GerardM
Zordsdavini iz Litvy wrote:
latgalian has long tradition of writing system. It was in 1918-1944
second
official language. Considering of dialect status is political. And there
are
very active people which are working on latgalian language life. It's dialect like neopolitanian or venecian. We say it's the language.
Arns
2006/10/17, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, The code bat is a "collective code" for Baltic (other). Latgalian
however
is considered a dialect of Latvian and therefore it is not "other".
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=lav http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=bat Thanks, GerardM
On 10/17/06, Angela beesley@gmail.com wrote:
On 10/17/06, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, According to Ethnologue Latgalian is a dialect of Latvian. From my
point
of
view, there is not even a proposed code to be used for your proposed Wikipedia that would be acceptable. Acceptable would be something
like
"lv-latg" or "lav-latg" ..
There's a test wiki at http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/ltg The code bat-ltv has been suggested.
Angela
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- Ok^ ek^ besla ikv Olmok Vzauep^evk :) _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Hoi, In the past many things have been done that we should regret. We have on the one hand Brion who insists that we maintain the RFC to do with indicating content, on the other hand I advocate to use the ISO-639-3 standard and engage in the process to get adequate resolution on what is to be considered a language. Then there are people who consider that it does not make a difference and that we can do as we like.
Yes, we have several codes that are wrong. Codes that are contrary to the terms of use of the ISO-639 code. The fact that we have done these things does not sanction that we continue to do so.
When Samogitian gets the zog code, it means that we should be able to use that code. From an RFC point of view it seems that we are not allowed to do this. This is as foolhardy as insisting on using codes that are patently wrong and incompatible with what is done in the rest of the world.
ISO is working on codes where dialects are given an official code. When this happens the position of these codes will become even more untenable. It is to be prefered to accept the best codes that comply with current practices and work on amending the practices where needed.
The difference between a language and a dialect is often a problematic one. Issues are often highly politicized. It is absolutely wrong to "recognize" what some activists believe for reasons that have nothing to do with linguistics. Engaging in the process to get the recognition through ISO and Ethnologue is open to us, let us go that route.
Thanks, GerardM
On 10/17/06, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Arns has a really good point. This is based on precedent.
While we do try to follow certain conventions where possible, we do have some inconsistencies with standards. But we're not ISOpedia. Whether we conform to standards or not is our own choice.
In the past, we have generally had codes in the form of fiu-vro, bat-smg, and map-bms.
This is despite the fact that Võro, Samogitian, and Banyumasan are considered by the Ethnologue (and many others) to be dialects of Estonian, Lithuanian, and Javanese respectively.
We are not perfect.
Mark
On 17/10/06, Zordsdavini iz Litvy zordsdavini@gmail.com wrote:
Latgalian is going in the same way as Samogitian. Soon Samogitian will
have
iso. It will be ZOG. For now it use bat-smg. The latgalian will have
iso,
too, I hope because Latgalian have more tradition than Samogitian. When Samogitian wiki was starting we decided to use bat-smg. I think the best code for now is bat-ltg. To write about dictionary differences can
proposer.
I'll tell him.
Arns
2006/10/17, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, There are two issues.
- What/ is/ the code for the moment
- Get recognition for Latgalian as a language.
People have considered languages like Min-Nan and Yue as a dialect of Chinese for a long time. They HAD to use codes like zh-min-nan because this was necessary to comply with the standards. At this moment we
have
7602 languages that are recognised in ISO-639-3. This is a big improvement over what was in ISO-639-2. The ISO-639-3 codes will
become
part of how languages are seen in the near future on the Internet. I
am
afraid that Latgalian is at this moment considered a dialect of
Latvian.
I am also sure that there are many other "languages/dialects" that are in a similar situation. Either because people are afronted because
what
it considers a language they consider a dialect or the other way
around.
There are also many people who consider something a dialect of for instance Italian while everybody knows that Italian was constructed after the unification of Italy and, that Italian is based on
Florentine.
The point I am making here there is a lot of confusion and there is a lot of posturing based on bad information. Having to base the code for Latgalian on Latvian is the best for the moment.
When you consider Latgalian a language, there are processes open to us to have this considered by organisations like Ethnologue and ISO. We have contacts that may help us achieve this. In order to get to that stage, it is necessary to jump through certain hoops. One of these is
to
demonstrate that there is indeed this difference that warrants
Latgalian
to be considered a language. Aspects of this are also showing
literature
and current use of the language. One of the first resources would be a Swadesh list where both Latvian and Latgalian can be compared.
FYI I am from an area of the Netherlands; Westfriesland where they
used
to speak a language; Westfries. It has a literature; it has a grammar
it
is not understood by people who speak Dutch. There are dialects of Westfries there are dictionaries of Westfries and there are revival societies that give cabaret performances in Westfries. At some stage I am sure that someone will ask for a Wikipedia in Westfries. I would
not
stop them. I KNOW that it takes relatively little effort to make the case for Westfries. In WiktionaryZ I would welcome dictionaries in Westfries or Latgalian... NB Westfries is not West Frisian .. which
imho
is a complete misnomer.
Thanks, GerardM
Zordsdavini iz Litvy wrote:
latgalian has long tradition of writing system. It was in 1918-1944
second
official language. Considering of dialect status is political. And
there
are
very active people which are working on latgalian language life.
It's
dialect like neopolitanian or venecian. We say it's the language.
Arns
2006/10/17, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, The code bat is a "collective code" for Baltic (other). Latgalian
however
is considered a dialect of Latvian and therefore it is not "other".
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=lav http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=bat Thanks, GerardM
On 10/17/06, Angela beesley@gmail.com wrote:
On 10/17/06, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
> Hoi, > According to Ethnologue Latgalian is a dialect of Latvian. From
my
>
point
of
> view, there is not even a proposed code to be used for your
proposed
> Wikipedia that would be acceptable. Acceptable would be something
like
> "lv-latg" or "lav-latg" .. > There's a test wiki at
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/ltg
The code bat-ltv has been suggested.
Angela
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- Ok^ ek^ besla ikv Olmok Vzauep^evk :) _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato. _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
I forward proposer letter: ============================ Hello, The question about Latgalian being a dialect or a language is still a topic for endless public and also academic discussions.
Researches made by linguistics professors (Breidaks, Leikuma, Stafecka, Toporov etc.) have shown that Latgalian and Latvian may be considered separate languages in terms of all structural levels of the languages (phonetics, morphology, vocabulary, syntax).
Consequently, this is a problem of Latvian majority being ready or not to accept use of Latgalian as a regional language. Some of the facts described below show that Latgalian has more features of a languages than those of a dialect.
Latgalian was taught as a separate language in schools of Latvia (until 1934, before authoritarian regime) and in Russia (until 1937, before mass exterminations of intelectuals of minority nations). Nowadays, Latgalian is taught at schools as an optional course, however, Association of Latgalian Teachers make regular efforts to obtain support from the government for teaching Latgalian.
Three Universities (University of Latvia, Daugavpils University and Rezekne Higher education istitutions) offer an optional course of Latgalian language and literature.
The Latgalian literary tradition has started in early 18 century. Total number of books published in Latgalian language reaches approx. 2000. About 150 Latgalian books were published in Latgalian since 1988, when the cultural revival movement started (i. e., after Soviet era)
Latgalian Radio ("Latgolys radeja") currently broadcasts in Latgalian language only.
There are 2 community portals in Latgalian only (www.latgola.lv, www.atzolys.lv) and a few more in both Latvian and Latgalian.
I would like to emphasize that a dialect in linguistics means a variety of language which exists, first of all, in its free spoken form, which is not standardized . Latgalians, however, use the written standard, which has a long history and is being revised and confirmed by Latgalian Language Commission on regular basis.
Furthermore, the code "bat-ltg" was assigned to test version of Latgalian about a year ago, and I think, there should be a consistency in decisions concerning the community of Latgalian Wkipedia. Thank you.
Regards, Armands (Stiernits from Latgalian Wikipedia)
2006/10/17, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, In the past many things have been done that we should regret. We have on the one hand Brion who insists that we maintain the RFC to do with indicating content, on the other hand I advocate to use the ISO-639-3 standard and engage in the process to get adequate resolution on what is to be considered a language. Then there are people who consider that it does not make a difference and that we can do as we like.
Yes, we have several codes that are wrong. Codes that are contrary to the terms of use of the ISO-639 code. The fact that we have done these things does not sanction that we continue to do so.
When Samogitian gets the zog code, it means that we should be able to use that code. From an RFC point of view it seems that we are not allowed to do this. This is as foolhardy as insisting on using codes that are patently wrong and incompatible with what is done in the rest of the world.
ISO is working on codes where dialects are given an official code. When this happens the position of these codes will become even more untenable. It is to be prefered to accept the best codes that comply with current practices and work on amending the practices where needed.
The difference between a language and a dialect is often a problematic one. Issues are often highly politicized. It is absolutely wrong to "recognize" what some activists believe for reasons that have nothing to do with linguistics. Engaging in the process to get the recognition through ISO and Ethnologue is open to us, let us go that route.
Thanks, GerardM
On 10/17/06, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Arns has a really good point. This is based on precedent.
While we do try to follow certain conventions where possible, we do have some inconsistencies with standards. But we're not ISOpedia. Whether we conform to standards or not is our own choice.
In the past, we have generally had codes in the form of fiu-vro, bat-smg, and map-bms.
This is despite the fact that Võro, Samogitian, and Banyumasan are considered by the Ethnologue (and many others) to be dialects of Estonian, Lithuanian, and Javanese respectively.
We are not perfect.
Mark
On 17/10/06, Zordsdavini iz Litvy zordsdavini@gmail.com wrote:
Latgalian is going in the same way as Samogitian. Soon Samogitian will
have
iso. It will be ZOG. For now it use bat-smg. The latgalian will have
iso,
too, I hope because Latgalian have more tradition than Samogitian.
When
Samogitian wiki was starting we decided to use bat-smg. I think the
best
code for now is bat-ltg. To write about dictionary differences can
proposer.
I'll tell him.
Arns
2006/10/17, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, There are two issues.
- What/ is/ the code for the moment
- Get recognition for Latgalian as a language.
People have considered languages like Min-Nan and Yue as a dialect
of
Chinese for a long time. They HAD to use codes like zh-min-nan
because
this was necessary to comply with the standards. At this moment we
have
7602 languages that are recognised in ISO-639-3. This is a big improvement over what was in ISO-639-2. The ISO-639-3 codes will
become
part of how languages are seen in the near future on the Internet. I
am
afraid that Latgalian is at this moment considered a dialect of
Latvian.
I am also sure that there are many other "languages/dialects" that
are
in a similar situation. Either because people are afronted because
what
it considers a language they consider a dialect or the other way
around.
There are also many people who consider something a dialect of for instance Italian while everybody knows that Italian was constructed after the unification of Italy and, that Italian is based on
Florentine.
The point I am making here there is a lot of confusion and there is
a
lot of posturing based on bad information. Having to base the code
for
Latgalian on Latvian is the best for the moment.
When you consider Latgalian a language, there are processes open to
us
to have this considered by organisations like Ethnologue and ISO. We have contacts that may help us achieve this. In order to get to that stage, it is necessary to jump through certain hoops. One of these
is
to
demonstrate that there is indeed this difference that warrants
Latgalian
to be considered a language. Aspects of this are also showing
literature
and current use of the language. One of the first resources would be
a
Swadesh list where both Latvian and Latgalian can be compared.
FYI I am from an area of the Netherlands; Westfriesland where they
used
to speak a language; Westfries. It has a literature; it has a
grammar
it
is not understood by people who speak Dutch. There are dialects of Westfries there are dictionaries of Westfries and there are revival societies that give cabaret performances in Westfries. At some stage
I
am sure that someone will ask for a Wikipedia in Westfries. I would
not
stop them. I KNOW that it takes relatively little effort to make the case for Westfries. In WiktionaryZ I would welcome dictionaries in Westfries or Latgalian... NB Westfries is not West Frisian .. which
imho
is a complete misnomer.
Thanks, GerardM
Zordsdavini iz Litvy wrote:
latgalian has long tradition of writing system. It was in
1918-1944
second
official language. Considering of dialect status is political. And
there
are
very active people which are working on latgalian language life.
It's
dialect like neopolitanian or venecian. We say it's the language.
Arns
2006/10/17, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, The code bat is a "collective code" for Baltic (other). Latgalian
however
is considered a dialect of Latvian and therefore it is not "other".
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=lav http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=bat Thanks, GerardM
On 10/17/06, Angela beesley@gmail.com wrote:
> On 10/17/06, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote: > >> Hoi, >> According to Ethnologue Latgalian is a dialect of Latvian. From
my
>> point
> of > >> view, there is not even a proposed code to be used for your
proposed
>> Wikipedia that would be acceptable. Acceptable would be
something
like
>> "lv-latg" or "lav-latg" .. >> > There's a test wiki at
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/ltg
> The code bat-ltv has been suggested. > > Angela
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- Ok^ ek^ besla ikv Olmok Vzauep^evk :) _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato. _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Are you advocating dis-including a language because it does not have an acceptable abbreviation? Or are you maintaining that it is not actually a language?
If the first, then I suspect that is not a good reason to disallow a new wikipedia to be formed.
If the second, then we are still "'recognize[ing]' what some activists believe". Though an appeal to the processes of an external body as part of our process does seem to mitigate that somewhat though I think that is questionable in terms of our principals.
SKL
GerardM wrote:
Hoi, In the past many things have been done that we should regret. We have on the one hand Brion who insists that we maintain the RFC to do with indicating content, on the other hand I advocate to use the ISO-639-3 standard and engage in the process to get adequate resolution on what is to be considered a language. Then there are people who consider that it does not make a difference and that we can do as we like.
Yes, we have several codes that are wrong. Codes that are contrary to the terms of use of the ISO-639 code. The fact that we have done these things does not sanction that we continue to do so.
When Samogitian gets the zog code, it means that we should be able to use that code. From an RFC point of view it seems that we are not allowed to do this. This is as foolhardy as insisting on using codes that are patently wrong and incompatible with what is done in the rest of the world.
ISO is working on codes where dialects are given an official code. When this happens the position of these codes will become even more untenable. It is to be prefered to accept the best codes that comply with current practices and work on amending the practices where needed.
The difference between a language and a dialect is often a problematic one. Issues are often highly politicized. It is absolutely wrong to "recognize" what some activists believe for reasons that have nothing to do with linguistics. Engaging in the process to get the recognition through ISO and Ethnologue is open to us, let us go that route.
Thanks, GerardM
On 10/17/06, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Arns has a really good point. This is based on precedent.
While we do try to follow certain conventions where possible, we do have some inconsistencies with standards. But we're not ISOpedia. Whether we conform to standards or not is our own choice.
In the past, we have generally had codes in the form of fiu-vro, bat-smg, and map-bms.
This is despite the fact that Võro, Samogitian, and Banyumasan are considered by the Ethnologue (and many others) to be dialects of Estonian, Lithuanian, and Javanese respectively.
We are not perfect.
Mark
On 17/10/06, Zordsdavini iz Litvy zordsdavini@gmail.com wrote:
Latgalian is going in the same way as Samogitian. Soon Samogitian will
have
iso. It will be ZOG. For now it use bat-smg. The latgalian will have
iso,
too, I hope because Latgalian have more tradition than Samogitian. When Samogitian wiki was starting we decided to use bat-smg. I think the best code for now is bat-ltg. To write about dictionary differences can
proposer.
I'll tell him.
Arns
2006/10/17, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, There are two issues.
- What/ is/ the code for the moment
- Get recognition for Latgalian as a language.
People have considered languages like Min-Nan and Yue as a dialect of Chinese for a long time. They HAD to use codes like zh-min-nan because this was necessary to comply with the standards. At this moment we
have
7602 languages that are recognised in ISO-639-3. This is a big improvement over what was in ISO-639-2. The ISO-639-3 codes will
become
part of how languages are seen in the near future on the Internet. I
am
afraid that Latgalian is at this moment considered a dialect of
Latvian.
I am also sure that there are many other "languages/dialects" that are in a similar situation. Either because people are afronted because
what
it considers a language they consider a dialect or the other way
around.
There are also many people who consider something a dialect of for instance Italian while everybody knows that Italian was constructed after the unification of Italy and, that Italian is based on
Florentine.
The point I am making here there is a lot of confusion and there is a lot of posturing based on bad information. Having to base the code for Latgalian on Latvian is the best for the moment.
When you consider Latgalian a language, there are processes open to us to have this considered by organisations like Ethnologue and ISO. We have contacts that may help us achieve this. In order to get to that stage, it is necessary to jump through certain hoops. One of these is
to
demonstrate that there is indeed this difference that warrants
Latgalian
to be considered a language. Aspects of this are also showing
literature
and current use of the language. One of the first resources would be a Swadesh list where both Latvian and Latgalian can be compared.
FYI I am from an area of the Netherlands; Westfriesland where they
used
to speak a language; Westfries. It has a literature; it has a grammar
it
is not understood by people who speak Dutch. There are dialects of Westfries there are dictionaries of Westfries and there are revival societies that give cabaret performances in Westfries. At some stage I am sure that someone will ask for a Wikipedia in Westfries. I would
not
stop them. I KNOW that it takes relatively little effort to make the case for Westfries. In WiktionaryZ I would welcome dictionaries in Westfries or Latgalian... NB Westfries is not West Frisian .. which
imho
is a complete misnomer.
Thanks, GerardM
Zordsdavini iz Litvy wrote:
latgalian has long tradition of writing system. It was in 1918-1944
second
official language. Considering of dialect status is political. And
there
are
very active people which are working on latgalian language life.
It's
dialect like neopolitanian or venecian. We say it's the language.
Arns
2006/10/17, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, The code bat is a "collective code" for Baltic (other). Latgalian
however
is considered a dialect of Latvian and therefore it is not "other".
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=lav http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=bat Thanks, GerardM
On 10/17/06, Angela beesley@gmail.com wrote:
> On 10/17/06, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote: > >> Hoi, >> According to Ethnologue Latgalian is a dialect of Latvian. From
my
point
> of > >> view, there is not even a proposed code to be used for your
proposed
>> Wikipedia that would be acceptable. Acceptable would be something
like
>> "lv-latg" or "lav-latg" .. >> > There's a test wiki at
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/ltg
> The code bat-ltv has been suggested. > > Angela
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- Ok^ ek^ besla ikv Olmok Vzauep^evk :) _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato. _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Thank you all guys. Somebody have already started what I am looking for.
On 18/10/06, ScottL scott@mu.org wrote:
Are you advocating dis-including a language because it does not have an acceptable abbreviation? Or are you maintaining that it is not actually a language?
If the first, then I suspect that is not a good reason to disallow a new wikipedia to be formed.
If the second, then we are still "'recognize[ing]' what some activists believe". Though an appeal to the processes of an external body as part of our process does seem to mitigate that somewhat though I think that is questionable in terms of our principals.
SKL
GerardM wrote:
Hoi, In the past many things have been done that we should regret. We have on
the
one hand Brion who insists that we maintain the RFC to do with
indicating
content, on the other hand I advocate to use the ISO-639-3 standard and engage in the process to get adequate resolution on what is to be
considered
a language. Then there are people who consider that it does not make a difference and that we can do as we like.
Yes, we have several codes that are wrong. Codes that are contrary to
the
terms of use of the ISO-639 code. The fact that we have done these
things
does not sanction that we continue to do so.
When Samogitian gets the zog code, it means that we should be able to
use
that code. From an RFC point of view it seems that we are not allowed to
do
this. This is as foolhardy as insisting on using codes that are patently wrong and incompatible with what is done in the rest of the world.
ISO is working on codes where dialects are given an official code. When
this
happens the position of these codes will become even more untenable. It
is
to be prefered to accept the best codes that comply with current
practices
and work on amending the practices where needed.
The difference between a language and a dialect is often a problematic
one.
Issues are often highly politicized. It is absolutely wrong to
"recognize"
what some activists believe for reasons that have nothing to do with linguistics. Engaging in the process to get the recognition through ISO
and
Ethnologue is open to us, let us go that route.
Thanks, GerardM
On 10/17/06, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Arns has a really good point. This is based on precedent.
While we do try to follow certain conventions where possible, we do have some inconsistencies with standards. But we're not ISOpedia. Whether we conform to standards or not is our own choice.
In the past, we have generally had codes in the form of fiu-vro, bat-smg, and map-bms.
This is despite the fact that Võro, Samogitian, and Banyumasan are considered by the Ethnologue (and many others) to be dialects of Estonian, Lithuanian, and Javanese respectively.
We are not perfect.
Mark
On 17/10/06, Zordsdavini iz Litvy zordsdavini@gmail.com wrote:
Latgalian is going in the same way as Samogitian. Soon Samogitian will
have
iso. It will be ZOG. For now it use bat-smg. The latgalian will have
iso,
too, I hope because Latgalian have more tradition than Samogitian.
When
Samogitian wiki was starting we decided to use bat-smg. I think the
best
code for now is bat-ltg. To write about dictionary differences can
proposer.
I'll tell him.
Arns
2006/10/17, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, There are two issues.
- What/ is/ the code for the moment
- Get recognition for Latgalian as a language.
People have considered languages like Min-Nan and Yue as a dialect of Chinese for a long time. They HAD to use codes like zh-min-nan
because
this was necessary to comply with the standards. At this moment we
have
7602 languages that are recognised in ISO-639-3. This is a big improvement over what was in ISO-639-2. The ISO-639-3 codes will
become
part of how languages are seen in the near future on the Internet. I
am
afraid that Latgalian is at this moment considered a dialect of
Latvian.
I am also sure that there are many other "languages/dialects" that
are
in a similar situation. Either because people are afronted because
what
it considers a language they consider a dialect or the other way
around.
There are also many people who consider something a dialect of for instance Italian while everybody knows that Italian was constructed after the unification of Italy and, that Italian is based on
Florentine.
The point I am making here there is a lot of confusion and there is a lot of posturing based on bad information. Having to base the code
for
Latgalian on Latvian is the best for the moment.
When you consider Latgalian a language, there are processes open to
us
to have this considered by organisations like Ethnologue and ISO. We have contacts that may help us achieve this. In order to get to that stage, it is necessary to jump through certain hoops. One of these is
to
demonstrate that there is indeed this difference that warrants
Latgalian
to be considered a language. Aspects of this are also showing
literature
and current use of the language. One of the first resources would be
a
Swadesh list where both Latvian and Latgalian can be compared.
FYI I am from an area of the Netherlands; Westfriesland where they
used
to speak a language; Westfries. It has a literature; it has a grammar
it
is not understood by people who speak Dutch. There are dialects of Westfries there are dictionaries of Westfries and there are revival societies that give cabaret performances in Westfries. At some stage
I
am sure that someone will ask for a Wikipedia in Westfries. I would
not
stop them. I KNOW that it takes relatively little effort to make the case for Westfries. In WiktionaryZ I would welcome dictionaries in Westfries or Latgalian... NB Westfries is not West Frisian .. which
imho
is a complete misnomer.
Thanks, GerardM
Zordsdavini iz Litvy wrote:
latgalian has long tradition of writing system. It was in 1918-1944
second
official language. Considering of dialect status is political. And
there
are
very active people which are working on latgalian language life.
It's
dialect like neopolitanian or venecian. We say it's the language.
Arns
2006/10/17, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
> Hoi, > The code bat is a "collective code" for Baltic (other). Latgalian
however
> is > considered a dialect of Latvian and therefore it is not "other". > > http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=lav > http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=bat > Thanks, > GerardM > > On 10/17/06, Angela beesley@gmail.com wrote: > >> On 10/17/06, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote: >> >>> Hoi, >>> According to Ethnologue Latgalian is a dialect of Latvian. From
my
> point > >> of >> >>> view, there is not even a proposed code to be used for your
proposed
>>> Wikipedia that would be acceptable. Acceptable would be something
like
>>> "lv-latg" or "lav-latg" .. >>> >> There's a test wiki at
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/ltg
>> The code bat-ltv has been suggested. >> >> Angela
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- Ok^ ek^ besla ikv Olmok Vzauep^evk :) _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato. _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Hoi, I do advocate to not include a language under a code that is incompatible with the terms of use of the ISO-639. This does only mean that a code needs to be picked that is *clearly *outside ISO-639, this can be accomplished by picking a four character code. I also advocate to follow the ISO-639 and not deviate from it's content. There are well established ways in which you can inform about dialects scripts etc. I do advocate to use these established ways.
My point is that when people want recognition for the language that they speak and write as a language, they have to jump through the hoops that are there to jump through. In the mean time there can be a code that allows them to work on a WMF project. However, what I am not saying is that any "language" deserves it's own project. There have already been two languages that have been deleted because of popular demand.
Thanks, GerardM
ScottL wrote:
Are you advocating dis-including a language because it does not have an acceptable abbreviation? Or are you maintaining that it is not actually a language?
If the first, then I suspect that is not a good reason to disallow a new wikipedia to be formed.
If the second, then we are still "'recognize[ing]' what some activists believe". Though an appeal to the processes of an external body as part of our process does seem to mitigate that somewhat though I think that is questionable in terms of our principals.
SKL
GerardM wrote:
Hoi, In the past many things have been done that we should regret. We have on the one hand Brion who insists that we maintain the RFC to do with indicating content, on the other hand I advocate to use the ISO-639-3 standard and engage in the process to get adequate resolution on what is to be considered a language. Then there are people who consider that it does not make a difference and that we can do as we like.
Yes, we have several codes that are wrong. Codes that are contrary to the terms of use of the ISO-639 code. The fact that we have done these things does not sanction that we continue to do so.
When Samogitian gets the zog code, it means that we should be able to use that code. From an RFC point of view it seems that we are not allowed to do this. This is as foolhardy as insisting on using codes that are patently wrong and incompatible with what is done in the rest of the world.
ISO is working on codes where dialects are given an official code. When this happens the position of these codes will become even more untenable. It is to be prefered to accept the best codes that comply with current practices and work on amending the practices where needed.
The difference between a language and a dialect is often a problematic one. Issues are often highly politicized. It is absolutely wrong to "recognize" what some activists believe for reasons that have nothing to do with linguistics. Engaging in the process to get the recognition through ISO and Ethnologue is open to us, let us go that route.
Thanks, GerardM
On 10/17/06, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Arns has a really good point. This is based on precedent.
While we do try to follow certain conventions where possible, we do have some inconsistencies with standards. But we're not ISOpedia. Whether we conform to standards or not is our own choice.
In the past, we have generally had codes in the form of fiu-vro, bat-smg, and map-bms.
This is despite the fact that Võro, Samogitian, and Banyumasan are considered by the Ethnologue (and many others) to be dialects of Estonian, Lithuanian, and Javanese respectively.
We are not perfect.
Mark
On 17/10/06, Zordsdavini iz Litvy zordsdavini@gmail.com wrote:
Latgalian is going in the same way as Samogitian. Soon Samogitian will
have
iso. It will be ZOG. For now it use bat-smg. The latgalian will have
iso,
too, I hope because Latgalian have more tradition than Samogitian. When Samogitian wiki was starting we decided to use bat-smg. I think the best code for now is bat-ltg. To write about dictionary differences can
proposer.
I'll tell him.
Arns
2006/10/17, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, There are two issues.
- What/ is/ the code for the moment
- Get recognition for Latgalian as a language.
People have considered languages like Min-Nan and Yue as a dialect of Chinese for a long time. They HAD to use codes like zh-min-nan because this was necessary to comply with the standards. At this moment we
have
7602 languages that are recognised in ISO-639-3. This is a big improvement over what was in ISO-639-2. The ISO-639-3 codes will
become
part of how languages are seen in the near future on the Internet. I
am
afraid that Latgalian is at this moment considered a dialect of
Latvian.
I am also sure that there are many other "languages/dialects" that are in a similar situation. Either because people are afronted because
what
it considers a language they consider a dialect or the other way
around.
There are also many people who consider something a dialect of for instance Italian while everybody knows that Italian was constructed after the unification of Italy and, that Italian is based on
Florentine.
The point I am making here there is a lot of confusion and there is a lot of posturing based on bad information. Having to base the code for Latgalian on Latvian is the best for the moment.
When you consider Latgalian a language, there are processes open to us to have this considered by organisations like Ethnologue and ISO. We have contacts that may help us achieve this. In order to get to that stage, it is necessary to jump through certain hoops. One of these is
to
demonstrate that there is indeed this difference that warrants
Latgalian
to be considered a language. Aspects of this are also showing
literature
and current use of the language. One of the first resources would be a Swadesh list where both Latvian and Latgalian can be compared.
FYI I am from an area of the Netherlands; Westfriesland where they
used
to speak a language; Westfries. It has a literature; it has a grammar
it
is not understood by people who speak Dutch. There are dialects of Westfries there are dictionaries of Westfries and there are revival societies that give cabaret performances in Westfries. At some stage I am sure that someone will ask for a Wikipedia in Westfries. I would
not
stop them. I KNOW that it takes relatively little effort to make the case for Westfries. In WiktionaryZ I would welcome dictionaries in Westfries or Latgalian... NB Westfries is not West Frisian .. which
imho
is a complete misnomer.
Thanks, GerardM
Zordsdavini iz Litvy wrote:
latgalian has long tradition of writing system. It was in 1918-1944
second
official language. Considering of dialect status is political. And
there
are
very active people which are working on latgalian language life.
It's
dialect like neopolitanian or venecian. We say it's the language.
Arns
2006/10/17, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
> Hoi, > The code bat is a "collective code" for Baltic (other). Latgalian >
however
> is > considered a dialect of Latvian and therefore it is not "other". > > http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=lav > http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=bat > Thanks, > GerardM > > On 10/17/06, Angela beesley@gmail.com wrote: > > >> On 10/17/06, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote: >> >> >>> Hoi, >>> According to Ethnologue Latgalian is a dialect of Latvian. From >>>
my
> point > > >> of >> >> >>> view, there is not even a proposed code to be used for your >>>
proposed
>>> Wikipedia that would be acceptable. Acceptable would be something >>>
like
>>> "lv-latg" or "lav-latg" .. >>> >>> >> There's a test wiki at >>
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/ltg
>> The code bat-ltv has been suggested. >> >> Angela
I disagree with your advocacy.
You have extreme viewpoints not shared by most members of the community. For this reason, I worry that your membership on the board languages subcommittee may unduly influence the creation of Wikis in new languages in a direction to which the community would not agree.
Mark
On 17/10/06, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, I do advocate to not include a language under a code that is incompatible with the terms of use of the ISO-639. This does only mean that a code needs to be picked that is *clearly *outside ISO-639, this can be accomplished by picking a four character code. I also advocate to follow the ISO-639 and not deviate from it's content. There are well established ways in which you can inform about dialects scripts etc. I do advocate to use these established ways.
My point is that when people want recognition for the language that they speak and write as a language, they have to jump through the hoops that are there to jump through. In the mean time there can be a code that allows them to work on a WMF project. However, what I am not saying is that any "language" deserves it's own project. There have already been two languages that have been deleted because of popular demand.
Thanks, GerardM
ScottL wrote:
Are you advocating dis-including a language because it does not have an acceptable abbreviation? Or are you maintaining that it is not actually a language?
If the first, then I suspect that is not a good reason to disallow a new wikipedia to be formed.
If the second, then we are still "'recognize[ing]' what some activists believe". Though an appeal to the processes of an external body as part of our process does seem to mitigate that somewhat though I think that is questionable in terms of our principals.
SKL
GerardM wrote:
Hoi, In the past many things have been done that we should regret. We have on the one hand Brion who insists that we maintain the RFC to do with indicating content, on the other hand I advocate to use the ISO-639-3 standard and engage in the process to get adequate resolution on what is to be considered a language. Then there are people who consider that it does not make a difference and that we can do as we like.
Yes, we have several codes that are wrong. Codes that are contrary to the terms of use of the ISO-639 code. The fact that we have done these things does not sanction that we continue to do so.
When Samogitian gets the zog code, it means that we should be able to use that code. From an RFC point of view it seems that we are not allowed to do this. This is as foolhardy as insisting on using codes that are patently wrong and incompatible with what is done in the rest of the world.
ISO is working on codes where dialects are given an official code. When this happens the position of these codes will become even more untenable. It is to be prefered to accept the best codes that comply with current practices and work on amending the practices where needed.
The difference between a language and a dialect is often a problematic one. Issues are often highly politicized. It is absolutely wrong to "recognize" what some activists believe for reasons that have nothing to do with linguistics. Engaging in the process to get the recognition through ISO and Ethnologue is open to us, let us go that route.
Thanks, GerardM
On 10/17/06, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Arns has a really good point. This is based on precedent.
While we do try to follow certain conventions where possible, we do have some inconsistencies with standards. But we're not ISOpedia. Whether we conform to standards or not is our own choice.
In the past, we have generally had codes in the form of fiu-vro, bat-smg, and map-bms.
This is despite the fact that Võro, Samogitian, and Banyumasan are considered by the Ethnologue (and many others) to be dialects of Estonian, Lithuanian, and Javanese respectively.
We are not perfect.
Mark
On 17/10/06, Zordsdavini iz Litvy zordsdavini@gmail.com wrote:
Latgalian is going in the same way as Samogitian. Soon Samogitian will
have
iso. It will be ZOG. For now it use bat-smg. The latgalian will have
iso,
too, I hope because Latgalian have more tradition than Samogitian. When Samogitian wiki was starting we decided to use bat-smg. I think the best code for now is bat-ltg. To write about dictionary differences can
proposer.
I'll tell him.
Arns
2006/10/17, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, There are two issues.
- What/ is/ the code for the moment
- Get recognition for Latgalian as a language.
People have considered languages like Min-Nan and Yue as a dialect of Chinese for a long time. They HAD to use codes like zh-min-nan because this was necessary to comply with the standards. At this moment we
have
7602 languages that are recognised in ISO-639-3. This is a big improvement over what was in ISO-639-2. The ISO-639-3 codes will
become
part of how languages are seen in the near future on the Internet. I
am
afraid that Latgalian is at this moment considered a dialect of
Latvian.
I am also sure that there are many other "languages/dialects" that are in a similar situation. Either because people are afronted because
what
it considers a language they consider a dialect or the other way
around.
There are also many people who consider something a dialect of for instance Italian while everybody knows that Italian was constructed after the unification of Italy and, that Italian is based on
Florentine.
The point I am making here there is a lot of confusion and there is a lot of posturing based on bad information. Having to base the code for Latgalian on Latvian is the best for the moment.
When you consider Latgalian a language, there are processes open to us to have this considered by organisations like Ethnologue and ISO. We have contacts that may help us achieve this. In order to get to that stage, it is necessary to jump through certain hoops. One of these is
to
demonstrate that there is indeed this difference that warrants
Latgalian
to be considered a language. Aspects of this are also showing
literature
and current use of the language. One of the first resources would be a Swadesh list where both Latvian and Latgalian can be compared.
FYI I am from an area of the Netherlands; Westfriesland where they
used
to speak a language; Westfries. It has a literature; it has a grammar
it
is not understood by people who speak Dutch. There are dialects of Westfries there are dictionaries of Westfries and there are revival societies that give cabaret performances in Westfries. At some stage I am sure that someone will ask for a Wikipedia in Westfries. I would
not
stop them. I KNOW that it takes relatively little effort to make the case for Westfries. In WiktionaryZ I would welcome dictionaries in Westfries or Latgalian... NB Westfries is not West Frisian .. which
imho
is a complete misnomer.
Thanks, GerardM
Zordsdavini iz Litvy wrote:
> latgalian has long tradition of writing system. It was in 1918-1944 > second
> official language. Considering of dialect status is political. And >
there
are
> very active people which are working on latgalian language life. >
It's
> dialect like neopolitanian or venecian. We say it's the language. > > Arns > > 2006/10/17, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com: > > >> Hoi, >> The code bat is a "collective code" for Baltic (other). Latgalian >> however
>> is >> considered a dialect of Latvian and therefore it is not "other". >> >> http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=lav >> http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=bat >> Thanks, >> GerardM >> >> On 10/17/06, Angela beesley@gmail.com wrote: >> >> >>> On 10/17/06, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Hoi, >>>> According to Ethnologue Latgalian is a dialect of Latvian. From >>>>
my
>> point >> >> >>> of >>> >>> >>>> view, there is not even a proposed code to be used for your >>>>
proposed
>>>> Wikipedia that would be acceptable. Acceptable would be something >>>> like
>>>> "lv-latg" or "lav-latg" .. >>>> >>>> >>> There's a test wiki at >>>
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/ltg
>>> The code bat-ltv has been suggested. >>> >>> Angela
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Hoi, Please understand that I raise a technical point that does not in any way prevent projects to be started. It does prevent the unfortunate creation of a project like als.wikipedia.org where als in ISO-639-3 is Albanian, the main language .. Fortunately, on WiktionaryZ we have already reached agreement that the als code can be replaced for Schwyzerdütsch (gsw). When this is a good solution for the als.wikipedia folks, this would help a lot.
Please let me know what is problematic with my view point. The fact that this is not yet shared does not negate the merit of the point of view.
Thanks, GerardM http://wiktionaryz.org/Portal:gsw
On 10/18/06, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
I disagree with your advocacy.
You have extreme viewpoints not shared by most members of the community. For this reason, I worry that your membership on the board languages subcommittee may unduly influence the creation of Wikis in new languages in a direction to which the community would not agree.
Mark
On 17/10/06, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, I do advocate to not include a language under a code that is incompatible with the terms of use of the ISO-639. This does only mean that a code needs to be picked that is *clearly *outside ISO-639, this can be accomplished by picking a four character code. I also advocate to follow the ISO-639 and not deviate from it's content. There are well established ways in which you can inform about dialects scripts etc. I do advocate to use these established ways.
My point is that when people want recognition for the language that they speak and write as a language, they have to jump through the hoops that are there to jump through. In the mean time there can be a code that allows them to work on a WMF project. However, what I am not saying is that any "language" deserves it's own project. There have already been two languages that have been deleted because of popular demand.
Thanks, GerardM
ScottL wrote:
Are you advocating dis-including a language because it does not
have
an acceptable abbreviation? Or are you maintaining that it is not actually a language?
If the first, then I suspect that is not a good reason to disallow
a
new wikipedia to be formed.
If the second, then we are still "'recognize[ing]' what some activists believe". Though an appeal to the processes of an external body as part of our process does seem to mitigate that somewhat though
I
think that is questionable in terms of our principals.
SKL
GerardM wrote:
Hoi, In the past many things have been done that we should regret. We have
on the
one hand Brion who insists that we maintain the RFC to do with
indicating
content, on the other hand I advocate to use the ISO-639-3 standard
and
engage in the process to get adequate resolution on what is to be
considered
a language. Then there are people who consider that it does not make
a
difference and that we can do as we like.
Yes, we have several codes that are wrong. Codes that are contrary to
the
terms of use of the ISO-639 code. The fact that we have done these
things
does not sanction that we continue to do so.
When Samogitian gets the zog code, it means that we should be able to
use
that code. From an RFC point of view it seems that we are not allowed
to do
this. This is as foolhardy as insisting on using codes that are
patently
wrong and incompatible with what is done in the rest of the world.
ISO is working on codes where dialects are given an official code.
When this
happens the position of these codes will become even more untenable.
It is
to be prefered to accept the best codes that comply with current
practices
and work on amending the practices where needed.
The difference between a language and a dialect is often a
problematic one.
Issues are often highly politicized. It is absolutely wrong to
"recognize"
what some activists believe for reasons that have nothing to do with linguistics. Engaging in the process to get the recognition through
ISO and
Ethnologue is open to us, let us go that route.
Thanks, GerardM
On 10/17/06, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Arns has a really good point. This is based on precedent.
While we do try to follow certain conventions where possible, we do have some inconsistencies with standards. But we're not ISOpedia. Whether we conform to standards or not is our own choice.
In the past, we have generally had codes in the form of fiu-vro, bat-smg, and map-bms.
This is despite the fact that Võro, Samogitian, and Banyumasan are considered by the Ethnologue (and many others) to be dialects of Estonian, Lithuanian, and Javanese respectively.
We are not perfect.
Mark
On 17/10/06, Zordsdavini iz Litvy zordsdavini@gmail.com wrote:
Latgalian is going in the same way as Samogitian. Soon Samogitian
will
have
iso. It will be ZOG. For now it use bat-smg. The latgalian will
have
iso,
too, I hope because Latgalian have more tradition than Samogitian.
When
Samogitian wiki was starting we decided to use bat-smg. I think the
best
code for now is bat-ltg. To write about dictionary differences can
proposer.
I'll tell him.
Arns
2006/10/17, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
> Hoi, > There are two issues. > * What/ is/ the code for the moment > * Get recognition for Latgalian as a language. > > People have considered languages like Min-Nan and Yue as a dialect
of
> Chinese for a long time. They HAD to use codes like zh-min-nan
because
> this was necessary to comply with the standards. At this moment we >
have
> 7602 languages that are recognised in ISO-639-3. This is a big > improvement over what was in ISO-639-2. The ISO-639-3 codes will >
become
> part of how languages are seen in the near future on the Internet.
I
>
am
> afraid that Latgalian is at this moment considered a dialect of >
Latvian.
> I am also sure that there are many other "languages/dialects" that
are
> in a similar situation. Either because people are afronted because >
what
> it considers a language they consider a dialect or the other way >
around.
> There are also many people who consider something a dialect of for > instance Italian while everybody knows that Italian was
constructed
> after the unification of Italy and, that Italian is based on >
Florentine.
> The point I am making here there is a lot of confusion and there
is a
> lot of posturing based on bad information. Having to base the code
for
> Latgalian on Latvian is the best for the moment. > > When you consider Latgalian a language, there are processes open
to us
> to have this considered by organisations like Ethnologue and ISO.
We
> have contacts that may help us achieve this. In order to get to
that
> stage, it is necessary to jump through certain hoops. One of these
is
>
to
> demonstrate that there is indeed this difference that warrants >
Latgalian
> to be considered a language. Aspects of this are also showing >
literature
> and current use of the language. One of the first resources would
be a
> Swadesh list where both Latvian and Latgalian can be compared. > > FYI I am from an area of the Netherlands; Westfriesland where they >
used
> to speak a language; Westfries. It has a literature; it has a
grammar
>
it
> is not understood by people who speak Dutch. There are dialects of > Westfries there are dictionaries of Westfries and there are
revival
> societies that give cabaret performances in Westfries. At some
stage I
> am sure that someone will ask for a Wikipedia in Westfries. I
would
>
not
> stop them. I KNOW that it takes relatively little effort to make
the
> case for Westfries. In WiktionaryZ I would welcome dictionaries in > Westfries or Latgalian... NB Westfries is not West Frisian ..
which
>
imho
> is a complete misnomer. > > Thanks, > GerardM > > Zordsdavini iz Litvy wrote: > >> latgalian has long tradition of writing system. It was in
1918-1944
>> > second > >> official language. Considering of dialect status is political.
And
>>
there
> are > >> very active people which are working on latgalian language life. >>
It's
>> dialect like neopolitanian or venecian. We say it's the language. >> >> Arns >> >> 2006/10/17, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com: >> >> >>> Hoi, >>> The code bat is a "collective code" for Baltic (other).
Latgalian
>>> > however > >>> is >>> considered a dialect of Latvian and therefore it is not "other". >>> >>> http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=lav >>> http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=bat >>> Thanks, >>> GerardM >>> >>> On 10/17/06, Angela beesley@gmail.com wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On 10/17/06, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hoi, >>>>> According to Ethnologue Latgalian is a dialect of Latvian.
From
>>>>>
my
>>> point >>> >>> >>>> of >>>> >>>> >>>>> view, there is not even a proposed code to be used for your >>>>>
proposed
>>>>> Wikipedia that would be acceptable. Acceptable would be
something
>>>>> > like > >>>>> "lv-latg" or "lav-latg" .. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> There's a test wiki at >>>>
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/ltg
>>>> The code bat-ltv has been suggested. >>>> >>>> Angela
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato. _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
The problem with your POV is that it isn't shared by the community. When you are a member of a subcommittee, you don't necessarily have to act in line with the will of the community, but the solutions you advocate should not be in total opposition to what the community believes to be reasonable.
You would likely vote to prohibit the creation of Latgalian using the code "bat-ltg". The community disagrees with you, as you can tell from the messages already sent. There is precedent in existing Wikimedia projects to support the usage of such code. You will suggest code such as "lat-ltg", which community and requester deemed unacceptable due to its political implications, of which the current proposed code has none (while the status of Latgalian is controversial as a dialect or language, everybody agrees that it is Baltic, and thus the more inclusive code is best). If a subcommittee is to work properly, it needs to be formed of indivduals who are not only knowledgeable about the topics involved, but who can aslo be expected to act reasonably and (with a certain degree of latitude) in line with the will of the larger community which they serve.
The current process for requesting new languages, chaotic and imperfect though it can be at times, is wonderful for sifting out minority views such as yours so that we are not forced to take a solution which is unsatisfactory to the community.
Mark
On 18/10/06, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Please understand that I raise a technical point that does not in any way prevent projects to be started. It does prevent the unfortunate creation of a project like als.wikipedia.org where als in ISO-639-3 is Albanian, the main language .. Fortunately, on WiktionaryZ we have already reached agreement that the als code can be replaced for Schwyzerdütsch (gsw). When this is a good solution for the als.wikipedia folks, this would help a lot.
Please let me know what is problematic with my view point. The fact that this is not yet shared does not negate the merit of the point of view.
Thanks, GerardM http://wiktionaryz.org/Portal:gsw
On 10/18/06, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
I disagree with your advocacy.
You have extreme viewpoints not shared by most members of the community. For this reason, I worry that your membership on the board languages subcommittee may unduly influence the creation of Wikis in new languages in a direction to which the community would not agree.
Mark
On 17/10/06, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, I do advocate to not include a language under a code that is incompatible with the terms of use of the ISO-639. This does only mean that a code needs to be picked that is *clearly *outside ISO-639, this can be accomplished by picking a four character code. I also advocate to follow the ISO-639 and not deviate from it's content. There are well established ways in which you can inform about dialects scripts etc. I do advocate to use these established ways.
My point is that when people want recognition for the language that they speak and write as a language, they have to jump through the hoops that are there to jump through. In the mean time there can be a code that allows them to work on a WMF project. However, what I am not saying is that any "language" deserves it's own project. There have already been two languages that have been deleted because of popular demand.
Thanks, GerardM
ScottL wrote:
Are you advocating dis-including a language because it does not
have
an acceptable abbreviation? Or are you maintaining that it is not actually a language?
If the first, then I suspect that is not a good reason to disallow
a
new wikipedia to be formed.
If the second, then we are still "'recognize[ing]' what some activists believe". Though an appeal to the processes of an external body as part of our process does seem to mitigate that somewhat though
I
think that is questionable in terms of our principals.
SKL
GerardM wrote:
Hoi, In the past many things have been done that we should regret. We have
on the
one hand Brion who insists that we maintain the RFC to do with
indicating
content, on the other hand I advocate to use the ISO-639-3 standard
and
engage in the process to get adequate resolution on what is to be
considered
a language. Then there are people who consider that it does not make
a
difference and that we can do as we like.
Yes, we have several codes that are wrong. Codes that are contrary to
the
terms of use of the ISO-639 code. The fact that we have done these
things
does not sanction that we continue to do so.
When Samogitian gets the zog code, it means that we should be able to
use
that code. From an RFC point of view it seems that we are not allowed
to do
this. This is as foolhardy as insisting on using codes that are
patently
wrong and incompatible with what is done in the rest of the world.
ISO is working on codes where dialects are given an official code.
When this
happens the position of these codes will become even more untenable.
It is
to be prefered to accept the best codes that comply with current
practices
and work on amending the practices where needed.
The difference between a language and a dialect is often a
problematic one.
Issues are often highly politicized. It is absolutely wrong to
"recognize"
what some activists believe for reasons that have nothing to do with linguistics. Engaging in the process to get the recognition through
ISO and
Ethnologue is open to us, let us go that route.
Thanks, GerardM
On 10/17/06, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Arns has a really good point. This is based on precedent.
While we do try to follow certain conventions where possible, we do have some inconsistencies with standards. But we're not ISOpedia. Whether we conform to standards or not is our own choice.
In the past, we have generally had codes in the form of fiu-vro, bat-smg, and map-bms.
This is despite the fact that Võro, Samogitian, and Banyumasan are considered by the Ethnologue (and many others) to be dialects of Estonian, Lithuanian, and Javanese respectively.
We are not perfect.
Mark
On 17/10/06, Zordsdavini iz Litvy zordsdavini@gmail.com wrote:
> Latgalian is going in the same way as Samogitian. Soon Samogitian
will
> have
> iso. It will be ZOG. For now it use bat-smg. The latgalian will
have
> iso,
> too, I hope because Latgalian have more tradition than Samogitian.
When
> Samogitian wiki was starting we decided to use bat-smg. I think the
best
> code for now is bat-ltg. To write about dictionary differences can > proposer.
> I'll tell him. > > Arns > > 2006/10/17, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com: > >> Hoi, >> There are two issues. >> * What/ is/ the code for the moment >> * Get recognition for Latgalian as a language. >> >> People have considered languages like Min-Nan and Yue as a dialect
of
>> Chinese for a long time. They HAD to use codes like zh-min-nan
because
>> this was necessary to comply with the standards. At this moment we >> have
>> 7602 languages that are recognised in ISO-639-3. This is a big >> improvement over what was in ISO-639-2. The ISO-639-3 codes will >> become
>> part of how languages are seen in the near future on the Internet.
I
>> am
>> afraid that Latgalian is at this moment considered a dialect of >> Latvian.
>> I am also sure that there are many other "languages/dialects" that
are
>> in a similar situation. Either because people are afronted because >> what
>> it considers a language they consider a dialect or the other way >> around.
>> There are also many people who consider something a dialect of for >> instance Italian while everybody knows that Italian was
constructed
>> after the unification of Italy and, that Italian is based on >> Florentine.
>> The point I am making here there is a lot of confusion and there
is a
>> lot of posturing based on bad information. Having to base the code
for
>> Latgalian on Latvian is the best for the moment. >> >> When you consider Latgalian a language, there are processes open
to us
>> to have this considered by organisations like Ethnologue and ISO.
We
>> have contacts that may help us achieve this. In order to get to
that
>> stage, it is necessary to jump through certain hoops. One of these
is
>> to
>> demonstrate that there is indeed this difference that warrants >> Latgalian
>> to be considered a language. Aspects of this are also showing >> literature
>> and current use of the language. One of the first resources would
be a
>> Swadesh list where both Latvian and Latgalian can be compared. >> >> FYI I am from an area of the Netherlands; Westfriesland where they >> used
>> to speak a language; Westfries. It has a literature; it has a
grammar
>> it
>> is not understood by people who speak Dutch. There are dialects of >> Westfries there are dictionaries of Westfries and there are
revival
>> societies that give cabaret performances in Westfries. At some
stage I
>> am sure that someone will ask for a Wikipedia in Westfries. I
would
>> not
>> stop them. I KNOW that it takes relatively little effort to make
the
>> case for Westfries. In WiktionaryZ I would welcome dictionaries in >> Westfries or Latgalian... NB Westfries is not West Frisian ..
which
>> imho
>> is a complete misnomer. >> >> Thanks, >> GerardM >> >> Zordsdavini iz Litvy wrote: >> >>> latgalian has long tradition of writing system. It was in
1918-1944
>>> >> second >> >>> official language. Considering of dialect status is political.
And
>>> there
>> are >> >>> very active people which are working on latgalian language life. >>> It's
>>> dialect like neopolitanian or venecian. We say it's the language. >>> >>> Arns >>> >>> 2006/10/17, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com: >>> >>> >>>> Hoi, >>>> The code bat is a "collective code" for Baltic (other).
Latgalian
>>>> >> however >> >>>> is >>>> considered a dialect of Latvian and therefore it is not "other". >>>> >>>> http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=lav >>>> http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=bat >>>> Thanks, >>>> GerardM >>>> >>>> On 10/17/06, Angela beesley@gmail.com wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 10/17/06, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Hoi, >>>>>> According to Ethnologue Latgalian is a dialect of Latvian.
From
>>>>>> my
>>>> point >>>> >>>> >>>>> of >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> view, there is not even a proposed code to be used for your >>>>>> proposed
>>>>>> Wikipedia that would be acceptable. Acceptable would be
something
>>>>>> >> like >> >>>>>> "lv-latg" or "lav-latg" .. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> There's a test wiki at >>>>> http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/ltg
>>>>> The code bat-ltv has been suggested. >>>>> >>>>> Angela
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato. _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
So would you say: hey, codes are fun, let's invent some new ones to give some languages/dialect a space?
And then you would go to iso and say: hey guys - we have that neat code ... it is a bit messy, but you should adopt it since otherwise it is not going to end up in software localisation etc?
Great point ... by not attributing a proper code you help those who are against that regional language or dialect, because you prevent a code from becoming official and you contribute to the fact that these poeple will much a harder time to get software etc. in their language.
Sun is still at iso 639-2 and sooner or later will go to 639-3 and this means for example that when it comes to languag code an "any code language" will not be included. Software that works with such language codes and locales will not be able to handle the fantasy code.
We are well aware of the fact that we require a lot - but please understand also that by requiring certain things we make sure that these languages really have a chance ... otherwise they would be confined into wikipedia (that has some kind of relevance) and certain other less relevant projects without even becoming the chance to reach an official standing.
I'd say that by making such things sure for those small communities we well do something for them: assure that their language has a real chance. Well of course ... if the community then prefers not to have an easy way to being reknown officially ...
Thanks, Sabine
Mark Williamson schrieb:
The problem with your POV is that it isn't shared by the community. When you are a member of a subcommittee, you don't necessarily have to act in line with the will of the community, but the solutions you advocate should not be in total opposition to what the community believes to be reasonable.
You would likely vote to prohibit the creation of Latgalian using the code "bat-ltg". The community disagrees with you, as you can tell from the messages already sent. There is precedent in existing Wikimedia projects to support the usage of such code. You will suggest code such as "lat-ltg", which community and requester deemed unacceptable due to its political implications, of which the current proposed code has none (while the status of Latgalian is controversial as a dialect or language, everybody agrees that it is Baltic, and thus the more inclusive code is best). If a subcommittee is to work properly, it needs to be formed of indivduals who are not only knowledgeable about the topics involved, but who can aslo be expected to act reasonably and (with a certain degree of latitude) in line with the will of the larger community which they serve.
The current process for requesting new languages, chaotic and imperfect though it can be at times, is wonderful for sifting out minority views such as yours so that we are not forced to take a solution which is unsatisfactory to the community.
Mark
Chiacchiera con i tuoi amici in tempo reale! http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/*http://it.messenger.yahoo.com
Again, this seems like a view not shared by the community. If we have a subcommittee full of people who have no wiggle room when it comes to codes, it won't be very good for us in the long term.
Wikimedia language codes are not permanent! This needs to be emphasised. If a new code is accepted in the future, we can adopt it (as we hopefully will with BAT-SMG -> ZOG).
In the mean time, though, it is awfully mean of us (or rather, of you), to restrict Wikipedias to those varieties viewed by SIL as languages.
So in the mean time, thanks to you guys, we can have a yib.wp in a language that is universally agreed to not be a language, while we must have a single yuf.wp against the wishes of the speakers of those 3 languages, who request and require separate literatures? That makes no sense.
Compliance with standards is good, but if it prevents the creation of a Wiki, we should ignore it.
You and Gerard award ISO 639 too much importance.
Mark
On 18/10/06, Sabine Cretella sabine_cretella@yahoo.it wrote:
So would you say: hey, codes are fun, let's invent some new ones to give some languages/dialect a space?
And then you would go to iso and say: hey guys - we have that neat code ... it is a bit messy, but you should adopt it since otherwise it is not going to end up in software localisation etc?
Great point ... by not attributing a proper code you help those who are against that regional language or dialect, because you prevent a code from becoming official and you contribute to the fact that these poeple will much a harder time to get software etc. in their language.
Sun is still at iso 639-2 and sooner or later will go to 639-3 and this means for example that when it comes to languag code an "any code language" will not be included. Software that works with such language codes and locales will not be able to handle the fantasy code.
We are well aware of the fact that we require a lot - but please understand also that by requiring certain things we make sure that these languages really have a chance ... otherwise they would be confined into wikipedia (that has some kind of relevance) and certain other less relevant projects without even becoming the chance to reach an official standing.
I'd say that by making such things sure for those small communities we well do something for them: assure that their language has a real chance. Well of course ... if the community then prefers not to have an easy way to being reknown officially ...
Thanks, Sabine
Mark Williamson schrieb:
The problem with your POV is that it isn't shared by the community. When you are a member of a subcommittee, you don't necessarily have to act in line with the will of the community, but the solutions you advocate should not be in total opposition to what the community believes to be reasonable.
You would likely vote to prohibit the creation of Latgalian using the code "bat-ltg". The community disagrees with you, as you can tell from the messages already sent. There is precedent in existing Wikimedia projects to support the usage of such code. You will suggest code such as "lat-ltg", which community and requester deemed unacceptable due to its political implications, of which the current proposed code has none (while the status of Latgalian is controversial as a dialect or language, everybody agrees that it is Baltic, and thus the more inclusive code is best). If a subcommittee is to work properly, it needs to be formed of indivduals who are not only knowledgeable about the topics involved, but who can aslo be expected to act reasonably and (with a certain degree of latitude) in line with the will of the larger community which they serve.
The current process for requesting new languages, chaotic and imperfect though it can be at times, is wonderful for sifting out minority views such as yours so that we are not forced to take a solution which is unsatisfactory to the community.
Mark
Chiacchiera con i tuoi amici in tempo reale! http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/*http://it.messenger.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Hoi, You are utterly barking up the wrong tree. Complying with standards does not mean that you cannot have things outside of the standards. It means that you comply with the standards as far as they go. There is no reason at all not to have new projects when these projects comply with what the Wikimedia Foundation accepts as it's policy for that type of project.
Your assumptions are blinding you. It is also rich that you use "the community" as an argument. This same community has asked for the closure of wikipedias that you fought tooth and nail to preserve. In a previous post you were talking about political reasons to do certain things. Political arguments are the ultimate POINT OF VIEW. When we are to come to a reasonable policy for new projects, flash crowds and political arguments will have to be considered of little importance because they either deny or ask for things that have little linguistic merit. Remember, what we aim to achieve; bringing knowledge to all people in their own language.
To repeat and conclude; compliance with standards does not prevent the creation of new version of WMF projects.
Thanks, GerardM
Mark Williamson wrote:
Again, this seems like a view not shared by the community. If we have a subcommittee full of people who have no wiggle room when it comes to codes, it won't be very good for us in the long term.
Wikimedia language codes are not permanent! This needs to be emphasised. If a new code is accepted in the future, we can adopt it (as we hopefully will with BAT-SMG -> ZOG).
In the mean time, though, it is awfully mean of us (or rather, of you), to restrict Wikipedias to those varieties viewed by SIL as languages.
So in the mean time, thanks to you guys, we can have a yib.wp in a language that is universally agreed to not be a language, while we must have a single yuf.wp against the wishes of the speakers of those 3 languages, who request and require separate literatures? That makes no sense.
Compliance with standards is good, but if it prevents the creation of a Wiki, we should ignore it.
You and Gerard award ISO 639 too much importance.
Mark
On 18/10/06, Sabine Cretella sabine_cretella@yahoo.it wrote:
So would you say: hey, codes are fun, let's invent some new ones to give some languages/dialect a space?
And then you would go to iso and say: hey guys - we have that neat code ... it is a bit messy, but you should adopt it since otherwise it is not going to end up in software localisation etc?
Great point ... by not attributing a proper code you help those who are against that regional language or dialect, because you prevent a code from becoming official and you contribute to the fact that these poeple will much a harder time to get software etc. in their language.
Sun is still at iso 639-2 and sooner or later will go to 639-3 and this means for example that when it comes to languag code an "any code language" will not be included. Software that works with such language codes and locales will not be able to handle the fantasy code.
We are well aware of the fact that we require a lot - but please understand also that by requiring certain things we make sure that these languages really have a chance ... otherwise they would be confined into wikipedia (that has some kind of relevance) and certain other less relevant projects without even becoming the chance to reach an official standing.
I'd say that by making such things sure for those small communities we well do something for them: assure that their language has a real chance. Well of course ... if the community then prefers not to have an easy way to being reknown officially ...
Thanks, Sabine
Mark Williamson schrieb:
The problem with your POV is that it isn't shared by the community. When you are a member of a subcommittee, you don't necessarily have to act in line with the will of the community, but the solutions you advocate should not be in total opposition to what the community believes to be reasonable.
You would likely vote to prohibit the creation of Latgalian using the code "bat-ltg". The community disagrees with you, as you can tell from the messages already sent. There is precedent in existing Wikimedia projects to support the usage of such code. You will suggest code such as "lat-ltg", which community and requester deemed unacceptable due to its political implications, of which the current proposed code has none (while the status of Latgalian is controversial as a dialect or language, everybody agrees that it is Baltic, and thus the more inclusive code is best). If a subcommittee is to work properly, it needs to be formed of indivduals who are not only knowledgeable about the topics involved, but who can aslo be expected to act reasonably and (with a certain degree of latitude) in line with the will of the larger community which they serve.
The current process for requesting new languages, chaotic and imperfect though it can be at times, is wonderful for sifting out minority views such as yours so that we are not forced to take a solution which is unsatisfactory to the community.
Mark
You are utterly barking up the wrong tree. Complying with standards does not mean that you cannot have things outside of the standards. It means that you comply with the standards as far as they go. There is no reason at all not to have new projects when these projects comply with what the Wikimedia Foundation accepts as it's policy for that type of project.
And from what I have seen so far, it's not impressive.
Your assumptions are blinding you. It is also rich that you use "the community" as an argument. This same community has asked for the closure of wikipedias that you fought tooth and nail to preserve. In a previous
Yes, the difference is that I am not a member of the language subcommittee. If I were, I would obviously have to put aside my personal feelings on issues and come to more objective conclusions based solely on evidence rather than emotion and instinct.
And remind me of these "Wikipedias"... I was troubled by the sudden deletion of the Klingon Wikipedia, but I did not fight "tooth and nail to preserve" it. I have fought for the preservation of mo.wp, but then, the history of that is not as one-sided as you perceive; see the Meta page Proposals for closing projects, the vote is currently at 90-50 (rather than 90-0). Although, perhaps a total of 10 individuals who participated in that vote (at maximum) were Moldovans. Majority were Romanians and Russians.
post you were talking about political reasons to do certain things. Political arguments are the ultimate POINT OF VIEW. When we are to come
Apparently your understanding of what I said is lacking. I said that YOUR solution shows a political statement, while the solution currently endorsed by the majority
to a reasonable policy for new projects, flash crowds and political arguments will have to be considered of little importance because they either deny or ask for things that have little linguistic merit. Remember, what we aim to achieve; bringing knowledge to all people in their own language.
Well, last time it was proposed such draconian measures as seem to be favoured by the Subcommittee as regards the approval of new languages, no consensus was reached by the community. Wikis created since that time, though, have had a reasonably high rate of success. Now, your subcommittee wants to kill what we have going by imposing requirements and restrictions which are going to be difficult for most languages to meet. Consider that most of the most recently-created Wikis, including the most successful among them (Zazaki, Siberian) had, at the beginning, only 1 or 2 contributors, contrary to the new Incubator policy requiring 5 users _before a test may even be started_!
Originally, such measures were in fact favoured by the community, during the extensive arguments following my request for a Sicilian WP (which, btw, is now a smashing success), but it appears based on votes at Proposals for closing projects that the general idea regarding inactive Wikis is to let them be the way they are, and a more liberal policy regarding creation of Wikis is widely accepted (only require two native speakers, sometimes Test-WP).
I do not have a problem with a Subcommittee deciding controversial issues such as Belarusan or Moldovan. However, I do have a problem with a committee (rather than the community) regulating new language creation.
Yes, the current procedure is subject to flashmobs, but these have only occurred in a handful of cases (Padonki, Siberian, Zazaki, Murcian, Andalus). I think that, besides that, it works very well -- most of the voters are intelligent people capable of checking to see if a language really exists, what reasons it might deserve a Wiki or not, etc.
I know that I was not even considered for the subcommittee due to my history, my style and personality, and my controversiality. However, this does not mean that my words are worthless.
Nearly all of the people who are most active in the process of new language requests were, in fact, excluded altogether. These are a crowd of people with experience, a good level of expertise in languages (Steinbach, Arbeo, Jade Night...), and ability to decide objectively.
To repeat and conclude; compliance with standards does not prevent the creation of new version of WMF projects.
Yes, but it does affect neutrality.
Mark, are you able to read English? Where did I or Gerard write that we restrict languages to ISO 639-3 codes? If any we talk about ISO 639-3 and to add specifiers to it to get a proper code for officially not existing languages.
I think you are again reading only half of what is written there and live in your own nice clouds up there in the sky ...
We have to deal with reality - and reality is such that
1) if something is a language and is part of another language code this language officially does not exist. 2) by making it the language code it is attributed to + a specifier you give it a distinction from that code and it starts to exist at least separately (and that is one step ahead) 3) by having a distinction you can start to work on the differences 4) when you have finally enough material and the basics for the request of an own code: you can request it - otherwise: go ahead working on it until you reach that point
I don't know what is against the community there - people can get their projects - no doubt - of course: nothing falls from heaven ... they will have to work and make sure their project and with that their language is able to survive.
You should know very well what it means when you need to proof that a language exists ... or am I wrong and everything in the last year was always all to obvious and went smoothly?
You should not doubt about someon trying to be objective. Objectivity can be preserved only by facts on the ground - not by: I am favourable or against because I think this or that ...
People say: well, we are from there, we know which language we speak ... well, I believe that ... but: there is a funny thing we have in Wikipedia: no original research ... uhm ... funny right? So now we create a language that has not been there up to now with an own neat code and say "this is this and that language" without it being official ... who are we to do such an original research? You can give these people only what is fact and help them to get their facts together.
People wanting their language reknown have a right to have it distinct in the right way - that can be done only by complying to standards, otherwise you will get simply a mess and will not be able to really go ahead.
Multilingual mediawiki is not all too far away ... and it can, if we work out a good strategy, be the solution for many language problems. Why? Well, imagine that there is that macro language or that language that has other languages included, but that up to now don't have an own code .... well: they can co-operate on one wiki - we are about languages, right? so why would we try to separate the macro language to many small wikipedias? Does it make sense? From a time and administration point of view there is little sense in doubling the efforts ... Imagine to have one admin per locale that belongs to the macro language .... that would mean the clean up work with vandals would not depend on one person only. Certain kinds of contents could be created contemporarily for all of the languages/dialects .... it would shift all of them to another level.
Wikipedia is about community, about co-operation and not about separation (or do I get somthing wrong?). Imagine if you have to go to 5 different wikis to do certain maintenance stuff ... how long does this take? And how long would this take if you do it on one wiki only? Remember: not all of us have the whole day to spend on the projects ... give small languages a chance by co-operating, by not separating, but helping each other to do things.
And now please come back on earth among living beings ... and consider this with a logical mindset and not only "they are this or that ...." we are not this or that, we have our experiences and these are at disposal of all by trying to make the creation of new wikipedias as npov as possible.
Just saw your latest mail: there were no requirements and restrictions published by us up to now ... well, I'd know that really ... clouds?
Thank you!
Sabine
P.S.: Sorry I will not go ahead discussing ... have to care about a dictionary for kids - and that really needs work - I am definitely taking too much time for discussions lately.
***** Sabine Cretella skype: sabinecretella Help with the OLPC children's dictionary: http://wiktionaryz.org/OLPC
Mark Williamson schrieb:
Again, this seems like a view not shared by the community. If we have a subcommittee full of people who have no wiggle room when it comes to codes, it won't be very good for us in the long term.
Wikimedia language codes are not permanent! This needs to be emphasised. If a new code is accepted in the future, we can adopt it (as we hopefully will with BAT-SMG -> ZOG).
In the mean time, though, it is awfully mean of us (or rather, of you), to restrict Wikipedias to those varieties viewed by SIL as languages.
So in the mean time, thanks to you guys, we can have a yib.wp in a language that is universally agreed to not be a language, while we must have a single yuf.wp against the wishes of the speakers of those 3 languages, who request and require separate literatures? That makes no sense.
Compliance with standards is good, but if it prevents the creation of a Wiki, we should ignore it.
You and Gerard award ISO 639 too much importance.
Mark
Chiacchiera con i tuoi amici in tempo reale! http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/*http://it.messenger.yahoo.com
On 18/10/06, Sabine Cretella sabine_cretella@yahoo.it wrote:
Mark, are you able to read English? Where did I or Gerard write that we restrict languages to ISO 639-3 codes? If any we talk about ISO 639-3 and to add specifiers to it to get a proper code for officially not existing languages.
Well, that's basically what I said in my e-mail. Gerard wrote that we should follow the standard, etc., etc., and you wrote something about making codes up.
Did I ever advocate that we just make codes up? Unless you think that using 6-letter codes (macro code plus custom identifier, viz fiu-vro, bat-smg, roa-rup, map-bms, etc.) is "making codes up", which from what you said in most of this e-mail doesn't follow your opinion.
You should know very well what it means when you need to proof that a
language exists ... or am I wrong and everything in the last year was always all to obvious and went smoothly?
I didn't need to prove anything to anyone. The fact that it has its own ISO 639-2 code speaks for itself. That it is written in that script in that region is a fact, not disputed. What /is/ disputed is whether or not it is "offensive", or whether it should be allowed to exist given there are not native speakers working on it. If this is how well-informed you are on this extremely controversial issue, you need to do some studying before you vote to make a decision.
You should not doubt about someon trying to be objective. Objectivity
can be preserved only by facts on the ground - not by: I am favourable or against because I think this or that ...
Humans are subjective by nature. We can be more objective or less objective, but it is impossible for us to be entirely objective.
Multilingual mediawiki is not all too far away ... and it can, if we
work out a good strategy, be the solution for many language problems. Why? Well, imagine that there is that macro language or that language that has other languages included, but that up to now don't have an own code .... well: they can co-operate on one wiki - we are about languages, right? so why would we try to separate the macro language to many small wikipedias? Does it make sense? From a time and
No, it makes little sense. Our current usage of macro codes does not agree to such a handling.
I think you misunderstand the term "macro-language". It refers to a code for a "language" that is really more of a language family. "macro codes" also include codes for entire language families, such as BAT, FIU, and MAP.
administration point of view there is little sense in doubling the
efforts ... Imagine to have one admin per locale that belongs to the macro language .... that would mean the clean up work with vandals would not depend on one person only. Certain kinds of contents could be created contemporarily for all of the languages/dialects .... it would shift all of them to another level.
It really only works for special cases. Certain close dialects of Kurdish, maybe some of the Italian minority languages, Dutch Low Saxon (many dialects, no single standard), Norman... But currently they are already cooperating in single Wikipedias. It won't work for more different cases, such as Samogitian/Latgalian (share the same macro code) or Võro and Karelian (again, share the same macro code), because editors will not understand each other.
If the committee's official opinion is that we should try to have "cooperation" in a single Wiki between certain mutually unintelligible varieties, then WM has reached a new low when it comes to language policy.
And now please come back on earth among living beings ... and consider
this with a logical mindset and not only "they are this or that ...." we are not this or that, we have our experiences and these are at disposal of all by trying to make the creation of new wikipedias as npov as possible.
Yes, but what makes you special? Why should you get to have a microcommunity that is more important than the existing community? Why are your opinions more valued than ours? You also have to consider that simply *moving* a new Wiki right on top of an existing Wiki (as you are apparently planning for the Belarusan case, according to Timichal) is going to cause huge issues. A slow phasing-out, replacement of articles individually or by bots makes much, much more sense.
Just saw your latest mail: there were no requirements and restrictions
published by us up to now ... well, I'd know that really ... clouds?
Mentioned on Incubator, supported by Timichal on IRC...
Mark
Fair enough.
SKL
Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi, I do advocate to not include a language under a code that is incompatible with the terms of use of the ISO-639. This does only mean that a code needs to be picked that is *clearly *outside ISO-639, this can be accomplished by picking a four character code. I also advocate to follow the ISO-639 and not deviate from it's content. There are well established ways in which you can inform about dialects scripts etc. I do advocate to use these established ways.
My point is that when people want recognition for the language that they speak and write as a language, they have to jump through the hoops that are there to jump through. In the mean time there can be a code that allows them to work on a WMF project. However, what I am not saying is that any "language" deserves it's own project. There have already been two languages that have been deleted because of popular demand.
Thanks, GerardM
ScottL wrote:
Are you advocating dis-including a language because it does not have an acceptable abbreviation? Or are you maintaining that it is not actually a language?
If the first, then I suspect that is not a good reason to disallow a new wikipedia to be formed.
If the second, then we are still "'recognize[ing]' what some activists believe". Though an appeal to the processes of an external body as part of our process does seem to mitigate that somewhat though I think that is questionable in terms of our principals.
SKL
GerardM wrote:
Hoi, In the past many things have been done that we should regret. We have on the one hand Brion who insists that we maintain the RFC to do with indicating content, on the other hand I advocate to use the ISO-639-3 standard and engage in the process to get adequate resolution on what is to be considered a language. Then there are people who consider that it does not make a difference and that we can do as we like.
Yes, we have several codes that are wrong. Codes that are contrary to the terms of use of the ISO-639 code. The fact that we have done these things does not sanction that we continue to do so.
When Samogitian gets the zog code, it means that we should be able to use that code. From an RFC point of view it seems that we are not allowed to do this. This is as foolhardy as insisting on using codes that are patently wrong and incompatible with what is done in the rest of the world.
ISO is working on codes where dialects are given an official code. When this happens the position of these codes will become even more untenable. It is to be prefered to accept the best codes that comply with current practices and work on amending the practices where needed.
The difference between a language and a dialect is often a problematic one. Issues are often highly politicized. It is absolutely wrong to "recognize" what some activists believe for reasons that have nothing to do with linguistics. Engaging in the process to get the recognition through ISO and Ethnologue is open to us, let us go that route.
Thanks, GerardM
On 10/17/06, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Arns has a really good point. This is based on precedent.
While we do try to follow certain conventions where possible, we do have some inconsistencies with standards. But we're not ISOpedia. Whether we conform to standards or not is our own choice.
In the past, we have generally had codes in the form of fiu-vro, bat-smg, and map-bms.
This is despite the fact that Võro, Samogitian, and Banyumasan are considered by the Ethnologue (and many others) to be dialects of Estonian, Lithuanian, and Javanese respectively.
We are not perfect.
Mark
On 17/10/06, Zordsdavini iz Litvy zordsdavini@gmail.com wrote:
Latgalian is going in the same way as Samogitian. Soon Samogitian will
have
iso. It will be ZOG. For now it use bat-smg. The latgalian will have
iso,
too, I hope because Latgalian have more tradition than Samogitian. When Samogitian wiki was starting we decided to use bat-smg. I think the best code for now is bat-ltg. To write about dictionary differences can
proposer.
I'll tell him.
Arns
2006/10/17, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, There are two issues.
- What/ is/ the code for the moment
- Get recognition for Latgalian as a language.
People have considered languages like Min-Nan and Yue as a dialect of Chinese for a long time. They HAD to use codes like zh-min-nan because this was necessary to comply with the standards. At this moment we
have
7602 languages that are recognised in ISO-639-3. This is a big improvement over what was in ISO-639-2. The ISO-639-3 codes will
become
part of how languages are seen in the near future on the Internet. I
am
afraid that Latgalian is at this moment considered a dialect of
Latvian.
I am also sure that there are many other "languages/dialects" that are in a similar situation. Either because people are afronted because
what
it considers a language they consider a dialect or the other way
around.
There are also many people who consider something a dialect of for instance Italian while everybody knows that Italian was constructed after the unification of Italy and, that Italian is based on
Florentine.
The point I am making here there is a lot of confusion and there is a lot of posturing based on bad information. Having to base the code for Latgalian on Latvian is the best for the moment.
When you consider Latgalian a language, there are processes open to us to have this considered by organisations like Ethnologue and ISO. We have contacts that may help us achieve this. In order to get to that stage, it is necessary to jump through certain hoops. One of these is
to
demonstrate that there is indeed this difference that warrants
Latgalian
to be considered a language. Aspects of this are also showing
literature
and current use of the language. One of the first resources would be a Swadesh list where both Latvian and Latgalian can be compared.
FYI I am from an area of the Netherlands; Westfriesland where they
used
to speak a language; Westfries. It has a literature; it has a grammar
it
is not understood by people who speak Dutch. There are dialects of Westfries there are dictionaries of Westfries and there are revival societies that give cabaret performances in Westfries. At some stage I am sure that someone will ask for a Wikipedia in Westfries. I would
not
stop them. I KNOW that it takes relatively little effort to make the case for Westfries. In WiktionaryZ I would welcome dictionaries in Westfries or Latgalian... NB Westfries is not West Frisian .. which
imho
is a complete misnomer.
Thanks, GerardM
Zordsdavini iz Litvy wrote:
> latgalian has long tradition of writing system. It was in 1918-1944 > second
> official language. Considering of dialect status is political. And >
there
are
> very active people which are working on latgalian language life. >
It's
> dialect like neopolitanian or venecian. We say it's the language. > > Arns > > 2006/10/17, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com: > > >> Hoi, >> The code bat is a "collective code" for Baltic (other). Latgalian >> however
>> is >> considered a dialect of Latvian and therefore it is not "other". >> >> http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=lav >> http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=bat >> Thanks, >> GerardM >> >> On 10/17/06, Angela beesley@gmail.com wrote: >> >> >>> On 10/17/06, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Hoi, >>>> According to Ethnologue Latgalian is a dialect of Latvian. From >>>>
my
>> point >> >> >>> of >>> >>> >>>> view, there is not even a proposed code to be used for your >>>>
proposed
>>>> Wikipedia that would be acceptable. Acceptable would be something >>>> like
>>>> "lv-latg" or "lav-latg" .. >>>> >>>> >>> There's a test wiki at >>>
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/ltg
>>> The code bat-ltv has been suggested. >>> >>> Angela
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
ScottL wrote:
Are you advocating dis-including a language because it does not have an acceptable abbreviation? Or are you maintaining that it is not actually a language?
If the first, then I suspect that is not a good reason to disallow a new wikipedia to be formed.
The practical approach is still to presume that the existence of an official ISO 639 is strong evidence for allowing a Wikipedia in that language, and that the absence carries a presumption that we should not. Nevertheless, any presumption is rebuttable. Several constructed languages have a code, but the barriers for having Wikipedias in those should be higher. For languages without a code there is still a large swath of q-codes available for user definition if a language meets our other criteria.
Ec
Ray Saintonge wrote:
ScottL wrote:
Are you advocating dis-including a language because it does not have an acceptable abbreviation? Or are you maintaining that it is not actually a language?
If the first, then I suspect that is not a good reason to disallow a new wikipedia to be formed.
The practical approach is still to presume that the existence of an official ISO 639 is strong evidence for allowing a Wikipedia in that language, and that the absence carries a presumption that we should not. Nevertheless, any presumption is rebuttable. Several constructed languages have a code, but the barriers for having Wikipedias in those should be higher. For languages without a code there is still a large swath of q-codes available for user definition if a language meets our other criteria.
Ec
From a practical approach you have a point but I hesitate to adopt the POV of an external organization even a standards body unless the POV is can be reasonably supported. Which means it should still be a case by case thing.
SKL
ScottL wrote:
Ray Saintonge wrote:
ScottL wrote:
The practical approach is still to presume that the existence of an official ISO 639 is strong evidence for allowing a Wikipedia in that language, and that the absence carries a presumption that we should not. Nevertheless, any presumption is rebuttable. Several constructed languages have a code, but the barriers for having Wikipedias in those should be higher. For languages without a code there is still a large swath of q-codes available for user definition if a language meets our other criteria.
From a practical approach you have a point but I hesitate to adopt the POV of an external organization even a standards body unless the POV is can be reasonably supported. Which means it should still be a case by case thing.
Absolutely. That's why I emphasize that such a POV is only a starting point. . Ec
Hoi, Please explain what the arguments are NOT to accept a standard that is the only viable way of making sure that other people understand what language we are using. Please explain what alternative exists given the all too frequent choice of codes that are the codes for languages given by the standards organisation when new projects are proposed. Please explain what is gained by going against what is the standard for the acceptance of languages and measure it against what it would cost us to do it in an idiosyncratic manner. Please explain what is wrong to use either codes that comply with the standard and when we do not want to use such a code, a code that is manifestly different.
It is fine to have a different opinion but please let there be some method behind the madness.
Thanks, GerardM
Ray Saintonge wrote:
ScottL wrote:
Ray Saintonge wrote:
ScottL wrote:
The practical approach is still to presume that the existence of an official ISO 639 is strong evidence for allowing a Wikipedia in that language, and that the absence carries a presumption that we should not. Nevertheless, any presumption is rebuttable. Several constructed languages have a code, but the barriers for having Wikipedias in those should be higher. For languages without a code there is still a large swath of q-codes available for user definition if a language meets our other criteria.
From a practical approach you have a point but I hesitate to adopt
the POV of an external organization even a standards body unless the POV is can be reasonably supported. Which means it should still be a case by case thing.
Absolutely. That's why I emphasize that such a POV is only a starting point. . Ec
I think everybody agrees that we shouldn't use 3-letter codes that belong to other languages.
When people propose to use codes that belong to other languages, it's out of ignorance, not malice.
However, to be able to use bat-ltg instead of lat-ltg is a different debate -- "bat-ltg" doesn't belong to another language, and it likely never will.
Mark
On 20/10/06, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Please explain what the arguments are NOT to accept a standard that is the only viable way of making sure that other people understand what language we are using. Please explain what alternative exists given the all too frequent choice of codes that are the codes for languages given by the standards organisation when new projects are proposed. Please explain what is gained by going against what is the standard for the acceptance of languages and measure it against what it would cost us to do it in an idiosyncratic manner. Please explain what is wrong to use either codes that comply with the standard and when we do not want to use such a code, a code that is manifestly different.
It is fine to have a different opinion but please let there be some method behind the madness.
Thanks, GerardM
Ray Saintonge wrote:
ScottL wrote:
Ray Saintonge wrote:
ScottL wrote:
The practical approach is still to presume that the existence of an official ISO 639 is strong evidence for allowing a Wikipedia in that language, and that the absence carries a presumption that we should not. Nevertheless, any presumption is rebuttable. Several
constructed
languages have a code, but the barriers for having Wikipedias in those should be higher. For languages without a code there is still a large swath of q-codes available for user definition if a language meets our other criteria.
From a practical approach you have a point but I hesitate to adopt
the POV of an external organization even a standards body unless the
POV
is can be reasonably supported. Which means it should still be a case by case thing.
Absolutely. That's why I emphasize that such a POV is only a starting point. . Ec
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Hoi, When you standardise on ISO-639-3 you will find that the bat code no longer is used. Slavic (other) is a deprecated code. It is therefore not a good idea to use it. The description of the Latvian entry at Ethnologue is explicit; Lagalian is considered a dialect.
When Latgalian's status as a dialect is to be disputed, I am quite happy to help. We are at this stage looking into how this can be done in a friendly but also linguistic way. It has to be clear to all that this is a lot of work and that the heavy lifting will have to be done by those who propose the change. In the mean time, the codes have there use as they articulate to others and particular to automated processes what the language is. When the codes that are used are a mess and are chosen for political reasons, you prevent this process from happening smoothly.
What is of relevance is what languages or dialects we choose for new projects. The codes used are a technical issue. When you make them more than that, it only becomes political and it does not help at all. I am opposed for all the above reasons and all the reasons that I have given before to any code that are not consistent with the standard. I am opposed to the creation of Latgalian under the code bat-ltg.
Thanks, GerardM
Mark Williamson wrote:
I think everybody agrees that we shouldn't use 3-letter codes that belong to other languages.
When people propose to use codes that belong to other languages, it's out of ignorance, not malice.
However, to be able to use bat-ltg instead of lat-ltg is a different debate -- "bat-ltg" doesn't belong to another language, and it likely never will.
Mark
On 20/10/06, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Please explain what the arguments are NOT to accept a standard that is the only viable way of making sure that other people understand what language we are using. Please explain what alternative exists given the all too frequent choice of codes that are the codes for languages given by the standards organisation when new projects are proposed. Please explain what is gained by going against what is the standard for the acceptance of languages and measure it against what it would cost us to do it in an idiosyncratic manner. Please explain what is wrong to use either codes that comply with the standard and when we do not want to use such a code, a code that is manifestly different.
It is fine to have a different opinion but please let there be some method behind the madness.
Thanks, GerardM
Ray Saintonge wrote:
ScottL wrote:
Ray Saintonge wrote:
ScottL wrote:
The practical approach is still to presume that the existence of an official ISO 639 is strong evidence for allowing a Wikipedia in that language, and that the absence carries a presumption that we should not. Nevertheless, any presumption is rebuttable. Several
constructed
languages have a code, but the barriers for having Wikipedias in those should be higher. For languages without a code there is still a large swath of q-codes available for user definition if a language meets our other criteria.
From a practical approach you have a point but I hesitate to adopt
the POV of an external organization even a standards body unless the
POV
is can be reasonably supported. Which means it should still be a case by case thing.
Absolutely. That's why I emphasize that such a POV is only a starting point. . Ec
Hi,
Standardising on iso-639-2 one will find there "bat" code is for other Baltic languages. I think it is normal and neutral to use it in such cases like Latgalian, when it is not absolutely clear can it be considered a dialect of other language or not.
Using codes like "lav-latg" is not neutral because it claims Latgalian a dialect of Latvian - which is unclear and disputed claim.
The explicity of the Ethnologue on claiming Latgalian to be just a dialect of Latvian without any further explanations can be caused by lack of information (or interest?).
However, one can propose absolutely neutral code variants:
1. bat-ltg 2. bat-latg 3. latg
Variants 1 and 2 say only that it is Latgalian which is a Baltic language (or variety).
If it is not still neutral enough, lets take variant 3 which says only that it is Latgalian.
Regards, Sullõv
Hoi, When you standardise on ISO-639-3 you will find that the bat code no longer is used. Slavic (other) is a deprecated code. It is therefore not a good idea to use it. The description of the Latvian entry at Ethnologue is explicit; Lagalian is considered a dialect.
When Latgalian's status as a dialect is to be disputed, I am quite happy to help. We are at this stage looking into how this can be done in a friendly but also linguistic way. It has to be clear to all that this is a lot of work and that the heavy lifting will have to be done by those who propose the change. In the mean time, the codes have there use as they articulate to others and particular to automated processes what the language is. When the codes that are used are a mess and are chosen for political reasons, you prevent this process from happening smoothly.
What is of relevance is what languages or dialects we choose for new projects. The codes used are a technical issue. When you make them more than that, it only becomes political and it does not help at all. I am opposed for all the above reasons and all the reasons that I have given before to any code that are not consistent with the standard. I am opposed to the creation of Latgalian under the code bat-ltg.
Thanks, GerardM
Mark Williamson wrote:
I think everybody agrees that we shouldn't use 3-letter codes that belong to other languages.
When people propose to use codes that belong to other languages, it's out of ignorance, not malice.
However, to be able to use bat-ltg instead of lat-ltg is a different debate -- "bat-ltg" doesn't belong to another language, and it likely never will.
Mark
On 20/10/06, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Please explain what the arguments are NOT to accept a standard that is the only viable way of making sure that other people understand what language we are using. Please explain what alternative exists given the all too frequent choice of codes that are the codes for languages given by the standards organisation when new projects are proposed. Please explain what is gained by going against what is the standard for the acceptance of languages and measure it against what it would cost us to do it in an idiosyncratic manner. Please explain what is wrong to use either codes that comply with the standard and when we do not want to use such a code, a code that is manifestly different.
It is fine to have a different opinion but please let there be some method behind the madness.
Thanks, GerardM
Ray Saintonge wrote:
ScottL wrote:
Ray Saintonge wrote:
ScottL wrote:
The practical approach is still to presume that the existence of an official ISO 639 is strong evidence for allowing a Wikipedia in that language, and that the absence carries a presumption that we should not. Nevertheless, any presumption is rebuttable. Several
constructed
languages have a code, but the barriers for having Wikipedias in those should be higher. For languages without a code there is still a large swath of q-codes available for user definition if a language meets our other criteria.
From a practical approach you have a point but I hesitate to adopt
the POV of an external organization even a standards body unless the
POV
is can be reasonably supported. Which means it should still be a case by case thing.
Absolutely. That's why I emphasize that such a POV is only a starting point. . Ec
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Hoi, Your whole point centers around your assertion that we standardise on ISO-639-2. This standard is rapidly being replaced because it is deficient.MANY languages are just not in there. ISO-639-3 warts and all is an immense improvement. With ISO-639-2 the bat code has been deprecated.
The point that you fail to understand is that the code is not for our own use only. By coming up with proprietary codes we lose the connection to what is done elsewhere. As much as anything it is important that what we do is connected.. We want to be found in Google for instance and to do this we have to have standardised language codes. With a lav-**** we have a better chance of finding the content that is in Latgalian. I am at the moment finding out how to find what dialects have what code.
The best alternative you proposed is latg because it is manifestly not an ISO-639 code. But as I explained it is a sub-standard option.
Thanks, GerardM
Sulev Iva wrote:
Hi,
Standardising on iso-639-2 one will find there "bat" code is for other Baltic languages. I think it is normal and neutral to use it in such cases like Latgalian, when it is not absolutely clear can it be considered a dialect of other language or not.
Using codes like "lav-latg" is not neutral because it claims Latgalian a dialect of Latvian - which is unclear and disputed claim.
The explicity of the Ethnologue on claiming Latgalian to be just a dialect of Latvian without any further explanations can be caused by lack of information (or interest?).
However, one can propose absolutely neutral code variants:
- bat-ltg
- bat-latg
- latg
Variants 1 and 2 say only that it is Latgalian which is a Baltic language (or variety).
If it is not still neutral enough, lets take variant 3 which says only that it is Latgalian.
Regards, Sullõv
Hoi, When you standardise on ISO-639-3 you will find that the bat code no longer is used. Slavic (other) is a deprecated code. It is therefore not a good idea to use it. The description of the Latvian entry at Ethnologue is explicit; Lagalian is considered a dialect.
When Latgalian's status as a dialect is to be disputed, I am quite happy to help. We are at this stage looking into how this can be done in a friendly but also linguistic way. It has to be clear to all that this is a lot of work and that the heavy lifting will have to be done by those who propose the change. In the mean time, the codes have there use as they articulate to others and particular to automated processes what the language is. When the codes that are used are a mess and are chosen for political reasons, you prevent this process from happening smoothly.
What is of relevance is what languages or dialects we choose for new projects. The codes used are a technical issue. When you make them more than that, it only becomes political and it does not help at all. I am opposed for all the above reasons and all the reasons that I have given before to any code that are not consistent with the standard. I am opposed to the creation of Latgalian under the code bat-ltg.
Thanks, GerardM
Mark Williamson wrote:
I think everybody agrees that we shouldn't use 3-letter codes that belong to other languages.
When people propose to use codes that belong to other languages, it's out of ignorance, not malice.
However, to be able to use bat-ltg instead of lat-ltg is a different debate -- "bat-ltg" doesn't belong to another language, and it likely never will.
Mark
On 20/10/06, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Please explain what the arguments are NOT to accept a standard that is the only viable way of making sure that other people understand what language we are using. Please explain what alternative exists given the all too frequent choice of codes that are the codes for languages given by the standards organisation when new projects are proposed. Please explain what is gained by going against what is the standard for the acceptance of languages and measure it against what it would cost us to do it in an idiosyncratic manner. Please explain what is wrong to use either codes that comply with the standard and when we do not want to use such a code, a code that is manifestly different.
It is fine to have a different opinion but please let there be some method behind the madness.
Thanks, GerardM
Ray Saintonge wrote:
ScottL wrote:
Ray Saintonge wrote:
> ScottL wrote: > > > The practical approach is still to presume that the existence of an > official ISO 639 is strong evidence for allowing a Wikipedia in that > language, and that the absence carries a presumption that we should > not. Nevertheless, any presumption is rebuttable. Several > >
constructed
> languages have a code, but the barriers for having Wikipedias in > those > should be higher. For languages without a code there is still a > large > swath of q-codes available for user definition if a language meets > our > other criteria. > >
From a practical approach you have a point but I hesitate to adopt
the POV of an external organization even a standards body unless the
POV
is can be reasonably supported. Which means it should still be a case by case thing.
Absolutely. That's why I emphasize that such a POV is only a starting point. . Ec
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Hi, According to SIL International (http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/relationship.asp) all substandards: iso639-1, -2 and -3 are existing and will be exist. Nowhere is said that -2 will replaced by -3. iso639-3 is said to be just an (huge) addition to the previous substandards.
Therefore one can freely standardise Latgalian according to iso639-2 as bat-*** or lav-***. The first choise representing better neutral pont of view and the will of proposers of Latgalian Wikipedia. The other can be possibly more reasonable thinking on search systems (as Gerard said). Anyway both are just temporary codes and will be replaced with official code (probably ltg) as soon as Latgalians will get their code. As much I know they have requested a code long time ago, but (it's my own experience requesting code for Võro) SIL and ISO are very far and very-very slowly functioning bodies, so it can take years to have even answer to your code request.
Regards, Sullõv
Hoi, Your whole point centers around your assertion that we standardise on ISO-639-2. This standard is rapidly being replaced because it is deficient.MANY languages are just not in there. ISO-639-3 warts and all is an immense improvement. With ISO-639-2 the bat code has been deprecated.
The point that you fail to understand is that the code is not for our own use only. By coming up with proprietary codes we lose the connection to what is done elsewhere. As much as anything it is important that what we do is connected.. We want to be found in Google for instance and to do this we have to have standardised language codes. With a lav-**** we have a better chance of finding the content that is in Latgalian. I am at the moment finding out how to find what dialects have what code.
The best alternative you proposed is latg because it is manifestly not an ISO-639 code. But as I explained it is a sub-standard option.
Thanks, GerardM
Sulev Iva wrote:
Hi,
Standardising on iso-639-2 one will find there "bat" code is for other Baltic languages. I think it is normal and neutral to use it in such cases like Latgalian, when it is not absolutely clear can it be considered a dialect of other language or not.
Using codes like "lav-latg" is not neutral because it claims Latgalian a dialect of Latvian - which is unclear and disputed claim.
The explicity of the Ethnologue on claiming Latgalian to be just a dialect of Latvian without any further explanations can be caused by lack of information (or interest?).
However, one can propose absolutely neutral code variants:
- bat-ltg
- bat-latg
- latg
Variants 1 and 2 say only that it is Latgalian which is a Baltic language (or variety).
If it is not still neutral enough, lets take variant 3 which says only that it is Latgalian.
Regards, Sullõv
Hoi, When you standardise on ISO-639-3 you will find that the bat code no longer is used. Slavic (other) is a deprecated code. It is therefore not a good idea to use it. The description of the Latvian entry at Ethnologue is explicit; Lagalian is considered a dialect.
When Latgalian's status as a dialect is to be disputed, I am quite happy to help. We are at this stage looking into how this can be done in a friendly but also linguistic way. It has to be clear to all that this is a lot of work and that the heavy lifting will have to be done by those who propose the change. In the mean time, the codes have there use as they articulate to others and particular to automated processes what the language is. When the codes that are used are a mess and are chosen for political reasons, you prevent this process from happening smoothly.
What is of relevance is what languages or dialects we choose for new projects. The codes used are a technical issue. When you make them more than that, it only becomes political and it does not help at all. I am opposed for all the above reasons and all the reasons that I have given before to any code that are not consistent with the standard. I am opposed to the creation of Latgalian under the code bat-ltg.
Thanks, GerardM
Mark Williamson wrote:
I think everybody agrees that we shouldn't use 3-letter codes that belong to other languages.
When people propose to use codes that belong to other languages, it's out of ignorance, not malice.
However, to be able to use bat-ltg instead of lat-ltg is a different debate -- "bat-ltg" doesn't belong to another language, and it likely never will.
Mark
On 20/10/06, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Please explain what the arguments are NOT to accept a standard that is the only viable way of making sure that other people understand what language we are using. Please explain what alternative exists given the all too frequent choice of codes that are the codes for languages given by the standards organisation when new projects are proposed. Please explain what is gained by going against what is the standard for the acceptance of languages and measure it against what it would cost us to do it in an idiosyncratic manner. Please explain what is wrong to use either codes that comply with the standard and when we do not want to use such a code, a code that is manifestly different.
It is fine to have a different opinion but please let there be some method behind the madness.
Thanks, GerardM
Ray Saintonge wrote:
ScottL wrote:
> Ray Saintonge wrote: > > >> ScottL wrote: >> >> >> The practical approach is still to presume that the existence of >> an >> official ISO 639 is strong evidence for allowing a Wikipedia in >> that >> language, and that the absence carries a presumption that we >> should >> not. Nevertheless, any presumption is rebuttable. Several >> >>
constructed
>> languages have a code, but the barriers for having Wikipedias in >> those >> should be higher. For languages without a code there is still a >> large >> swath of q-codes available for user definition if a language meets >> our >> other criteria. >> >> From a practical approach you have a point but I hesitate to adopt
> the POV of an external organization even a standards body unless > the > >
POV
> is can be reasonably supported. Which means it should still be a > case > by case thing. > > > > Absolutely. That's why I emphasize that such a POV is only a starting point. . Ec
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
GerardM wrote:
We want to be found in Google for instance and to
do this we have to have standardised language codes. With a lav-**** we have a better chance of finding the content that is in Latgalian. I am at the moment finding out how to find what dialects have what code.
I posted "Telšē" in google (it's Samogitia capital). In thirst place was http://bat-smg.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tel%C5%A1iai. I still don't understand why lv-ltg is more clearly. I'm looking to the future and to know that bat-smg and bat-ltg is not sisters languages (because bat-ltg could be lv-ltg) do bad things such as there is idea to have wikibook but both languages are to small so it could be in one wikibook "bat" may be prg (there are some enthusiasts for Old Prussian language) could be with too. In eurominority ( http://www.eurominority.org/version/eng/languages3.asp?id_groupeethnique=1&a...) latgalian is been shown.
Arns Udovīčė
As long as that last bit about still being able to use other codes if the standard does not supply one. The only point I was making (and I think it came from a misunderstanding of your position) is that what code you use for a language has no place at all (even a little) in a discussion about the merit of having a wikipedia in that language.
If the standard CAN be followed then yes obviously that is good. If the standard does not allow for the language but our other policies would otherwise accept it, then we need to do something different, but it is not a reason to disallow a language.
SKL
Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi, Please explain what the arguments are NOT to accept a standard that is the only viable way of making sure that other people understand what language we are using. Please explain what alternative exists given the all too frequent choice of codes that are the codes for languages given by the standards organisation when new projects are proposed. Please explain what is gained by going against what is the standard for the acceptance of languages and measure it against what it would cost us to do it in an idiosyncratic manner. Please explain what is wrong to use either codes that comply with the standard and when we do not want to use such a code, a code that is manifestly different.
It is fine to have a different opinion but please let there be some method behind the madness.
Thanks, GerardM
Ray Saintonge wrote:
ScottL wrote:
Ray Saintonge wrote:
ScottL wrote:
The practical approach is still to presume that the existence of an official ISO 639 is strong evidence for allowing a Wikipedia in that language, and that the absence carries a presumption that we should not. Nevertheless, any presumption is rebuttable. Several constructed languages have a code, but the barriers for having Wikipedias in those should be higher. For languages without a code there is still a large swath of q-codes available for user definition if a language meets our other criteria.
From a practical approach you have a point but I hesitate to adopt
the POV of an external organization even a standards body unless the POV is can be reasonably supported. Which means it should still be a case by case thing.
Absolutely. That's why I emphasize that such a POV is only a starting point. . Ec
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Ray Saintonge wrote:
ScottL wrote:
Ray Saintonge wrote:
ScottL wrote:
The practical approach is still to presume that the existence of an official ISO 639 is strong evidence for allowing a Wikipedia in that language, and that the absence carries a presumption that we should not. Nevertheless, any presumption is rebuttable. Several constructed languages have a code, but the barriers for having Wikipedias in those should be higher. For languages without a code there is still a large swath of q-codes available for user definition if a language meets our other criteria.
From a practical approach you have a point but I hesitate to adopt
the POV of an external organization even a standards body unless the POV is can be reasonably supported. Which means it should still be a case by case thing.
Absolutely. That's why I emphasize that such a POV is only a starting point.
Hoi,
Please explain what the arguments are NOT to accept a standard that is the only viable way of making sure that other people understand what language we are using. Please explain what alternative exists given the all too frequent choice of codes that are the codes for languages given by the standards organisation when new projects are proposed. Please explain what is gained by going against what is the standard for the acceptance of languages and measure it against what it would cost us to do it in an idiosyncratic manner. Please explain what is wrong to use either codes that comply with the standard and when we do not want to use such a code, a code that is manifestly different.
It is fine to have a different opinion but please let there be some method behind the madness.
Thanks, GerardM
Your requests for explanations seem more rhetorical than substantive. These requests would be better placed in the context of considering a specific language. Beyond that you are attacking points that I never made. I merely said that there are circumstances where there are better alternatives than a slavish adherence to standards.
Ec
It's considered a dialect of Latvian by the Ethnologue.
But they're known to have very unreliable information in many cases. They even list Yinglish as a language when it's not even a dialect or sociolect, merely a group of code-switching phenomena (mostly. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yinglish ), while they neglect to even mention Singlish, the creole language spoken natively by most young Singaporeans.
Mark
On 17/10/06, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, The code bat is a "collective code" for Baltic (other). Latgalian however is considered a dialect of Latvian and therefore it is not "other".
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=lav http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=bat Thanks, GerardM
On 10/17/06, Angela beesley@gmail.com wrote:
On 10/17/06, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, According to Ethnologue Latgalian is a dialect of Latvian. From my point
of
view, there is not even a proposed code to be used for your proposed Wikipedia that would be acceptable. Acceptable would be something like "lv-latg" or "lav-latg" ..
There's a test wiki at http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/ltg The code bat-ltv has been suggested.
Angela
-- Angela Beesley http://wikia.com | http://a.nge.la _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Dear Angela, Arns, Mark and others,
bat-ltg like proposed in Latgalian test wiki http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/ltg would be an ideal code for Latgalian Wikipedia. Like bat-smg is perfect for Samogitian and fiu-vro is currently perfect for Võro.
I have long personal contacts with Latgalian language activists and researchers and I know a bit the history of Latgalian.
Of course Latgalian is not merely a dialect of Latvian. Latgalian has long history of its own literary language and it has been the second official language of Latvia in 1920-s. Later Latvian nationalist goverment of Ulmanis prohibited any official use of Latgalian. Latvian authorities still refuse to recognize Latgalian as a separate language. But it is exactly the same case as with Võro in Estonia and with Samogitian in Lithuania, and with many other languages which despite it already have their own Wikipedia.
Ethnologue (with its location and interests) is too far from us, it just does not know the real situation of regional languages of the Baltic countries. And maibe Latgalian activists have been also a bit modest to inform the World about their language.
Actually Latgalian is the only regional or minority language in Latvia that is vital enough to have its own wikipedia, because the other small language of Latvia (Finno- Ugric) Livonian is too small and in fact extinct.
Anyway Latgalian can be definitely considered as a language and it deserves and needs its own Wikipedia.
See more about Latgalian: http://www.geocities.com/latgalian/
Jüvä Sullõv/Sulev Iva (Võrok from Võro Wikipedia)
17.10.2006 11:24:41, "Mark Williamson" node.ue@gmail.com kirot':
It's considered a dialect of Latvian by the Ethnologue.
But they're known to have very unreliable information in many cases. They even list Yinglish as a language when it's not even a dialect or sociolect, merely a group of code-switching phenomena (mostly. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yinglish ), while they neglect to even mention Singlish, the creole language spoken natively by most young Singaporeans.
Mark
On 17/10/06, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, The code bat is a "collective code" for Baltic (other). Latgalian however is considered a dialect of Latvian and therefore it is not "other".
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=lav http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=bat Thanks, GerardM
On 10/17/06, Angela beesley@gmail.com wrote:
On 10/17/06, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, According to Ethnologue Latgalian is a dialect of Latvian. From my point
of
view, there is not even a proposed code to be used for your proposed Wikipedia that would be acceptable. Acceptable would be something like "lv-latg" or "lav-latg" ..
There's a test wiki at http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/ltg The code bat-ltv has been suggested.
Angela
-- Angela Beesley http://wikia.com | http://a.nge.la _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato. _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
What I don't understand is how the Baltic states can be so unyielding to linguistic minorities. After what they went through under Soviet occupation as regards their own national languages, you would think they'd be a little more understanding. But apparently not.
Mark
On 17/10/06, Jüvä Sullõv juvasul@ut.ee wrote:
Dear Angela, Arns, Mark and others,
bat-ltg like proposed in Latgalian test wiki http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/ltg would be an ideal code for Latgalian Wikipedia. Like bat-smg is perfect for Samogitian and fiu-vro is currently perfect for Võro.
I have long personal contacts with Latgalian language activists and researchers and I know a bit the history of Latgalian.
Of course Latgalian is not merely a dialect of Latvian. Latgalian has long history of its own literary language and it has been the second official language of Latvia in 1920-s. Later Latvian nationalist goverment of Ulmanis prohibited any official use of Latgalian. Latvian authorities still refuse to recognize Latgalian as a separate language. But it is exactly the same case as with Võro in Estonia and with Samogitian in Lithuania, and with many other languages which despite it already have their own Wikipedia.
Ethnologue (with its location and interests) is too far from us, it just does not know the real situation of regional languages of the Baltic countries. And maibe Latgalian activists have been also a bit modest to inform the World about their language.
Actually Latgalian is the only regional or minority language in Latvia that is vital enough to have its own wikipedia, because the other small language of Latvia (Finno- Ugric) Livonian is too small and in fact extinct.
Anyway Latgalian can be definitely considered as a language and it deserves and needs its own Wikipedia.
See more about Latgalian: http://www.geocities.com/latgalian/
Jüvä Sullõv/Sulev Iva (Võrok from Võro Wikipedia)
17.10.2006 11:24:41, "Mark Williamson" node.ue@gmail.com kirot':
It's considered a dialect of Latvian by the Ethnologue.
But they're known to have very unreliable information in many cases. They even list Yinglish as a language when it's not even a dialect or sociolect, merely a group of code-switching phenomena (mostly. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yinglish ), while they neglect to even mention Singlish, the creole language spoken natively by most young Singaporeans.
Mark
On 17/10/06, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, The code bat is a "collective code" for Baltic (other). Latgalian however is considered a dialect of Latvian and therefore it is not "other".
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=lav http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=bat Thanks, GerardM
On 10/17/06, Angela beesley@gmail.com wrote:
On 10/17/06, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, According to Ethnologue Latgalian is a dialect of Latvian. From my point
of
view, there is not even a proposed code to be used for your proposed Wikipedia that would be acceptable. Acceptable would be something like "lv-latg" or "lav-latg" ..
There's a test wiki at http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/ltg The code bat-ltv has been suggested.
Angela
-- Angela Beesley http://wikia.com | http://a.nge.la _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- Refije dirije lanmč yo paske nou posede pwņp bato. _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org