Hi - I need your help (whoever you are)
I am trying to write a html email which will be used as the release message for Quarto. Work in progress, ie the html code can be seen at: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:WQ#Publicising_Quarto_by_html_email
The text I'm using at the moment is a straight copy from the meta release message page: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WQ/2/Release_message
My problem is that, working with Dreamweaver on a Mac (OSX), I can't get non-English or non-Roman - specifically Japanese - characters to work in my version. I have copied the source code from the page as well as the display text (and edit-mode text). I have tried copying the text with text encoding changed on my browser (Safari) - Ascander even copied the Japanese text with different coding (?) into the page but none of these work. I can copy Japanese etc. text into Word and Text Edit, but for some reason, I cannot then get these to save and display the file as a normal html file that opens and functions properly in a browser. Simple text is the only program that does this for me but it doesn't seem to support non-English/Roman script :(
Can anyone help me with this predicament? If you can, can you spell it out in nice and easy steps? Also, if you have a comment to make on the mail itself, you could go to the quarto-l mailing list - I have only posted here as I haven't found any absolute solutions there.
Thanks Cormac
On 4/18/05, Tony Sidaway minorityreport@bluebottle.com wrote:
Cormac Lawler said:
Hi - I need your help (whoever you are)
I am trying to write a html email
I'm sorry if this sounds unhelpful, but could I please ask you to *reconsider* any impulse you might feel to produce emails in html? Text is much nicer.
Fair comment, but could i ask that that discussion take place on quarto-l? Just to add, that it is not just *my* impulse to produce this mail - I have simply volunteered to do it. Cormac
Cormac Lawler a écrit:
On 4/18/05, Tony Sidaway minorityreport@bluebottle.com wrote:
Cormac Lawler said:
Hi - I need your help (whoever you are)
I am trying to write a html email
I'm sorry if this sounds unhelpful, but could I please ask you to *reconsider* any impulse you might feel to produce emails in html? Text is much nicer.
Fair comment, but could i ask that that discussion take place on quarto-l? Just to add, that it is not just *my* impulse to produce this mail - I have simply volunteered to do it. Cormac
yo. I think most of us would prefer it to be in html... for quite a number of reason (such as links).
Ant
On Mon, Apr 18, 2005 at 09:12:23PM +0200, Anthere wrote:
Cormac Lawler a écrit:
On 4/18/05, Tony Sidaway minorityreport@bluebottle.com wrote:
Cormac Lawler said:
Hi - I need your help (whoever you are)
I am trying to write a html email
I'm sorry if this sounds unhelpful, but could I please ask you to *reconsider* any impulse you might feel to produce emails in html? Text is much nicer.
Fair comment, but could i ask that that discussion take place on quarto-l? Just to add, that it is not just *my* impulse to produce this mail - I have simply volunteered to do it. Cormac
yo. I think most of us would prefer it to be in html... for quite a number of reason (such as links).
Ant
I'm not sure I agree with that estimation of the majority. I think that a vast majority would, in fact, probably not much care one way or another, especially since most graphical email clients turn bare URLs into links automatically, even in text-only emails. Meanwhile, HTML emails are almost undreadable for those of us whose primary email is read in a text-only fashion. I actually delete 90% of HTML email without even checking to see whether it's content is of any relevance to my life for a number of reasons, including security issues, annoyance factor, and basic convenience.
Text email is universal. HTML email alienates a great many people. If I wanted to see HTML, I'd use a browser or an HTML editor.
That's not to say that there isn't a place for HTML emails, but I would strongly recommend that emails not be sent in HTML form unless you are positive that everybody receiving the email will be positively receptive to that format. If you really want to present information in an HTML formatted manner, but aren't sure if everyone receiving the email will be accepting of HTML emails, you might think about simply creating a webpage somewhere and linking to it from a text email.
I'd say "Maybe that's just me," but I know for a fact it's not.
-- Chad Perrin [ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
Chad Perrin a écrit:
On Mon, Apr 18, 2005 at 09:12:23PM +0200, Anthere wrote:
Cormac Lawler a écrit:
On 4/18/05, Tony Sidaway minorityreport@bluebottle.com wrote:
Cormac Lawler said:
Hi - I need your help (whoever you are)
I am trying to write a html email
I'm sorry if this sounds unhelpful, but could I please ask you to *reconsider* any impulse you might feel to produce emails in html? Text is much nicer.
Fair comment, but could i ask that that discussion take place on quarto-l? Just to add, that it is not just *my* impulse to produce this mail - I have simply volunteered to do it. Cormac
yo. I think most of us would prefer it to be in html... for quite a number of reason (such as links).
Ant
I'm not sure I agree with that estimation of the majority. I think that a vast majority would, in fact, probably not much care one way or another, especially since most graphical email clients turn bare URLs into links automatically, even in text-only emails. Meanwhile, HTML emails are almost undreadable for those of us whose primary email is read in a text-only fashion. I actually delete 90% of HTML email without even checking to see whether it's content is of any relevance to my life for a number of reasons, including security issues, annoyance factor, and basic convenience.
Text email is universal. HTML email alienates a great many people. If I wanted to see HTML, I'd use a browser or an HTML editor.
That's not to say that there isn't a place for HTML emails, but I would strongly recommend that emails not be sent in HTML form unless you are positive that everybody receiving the email will be positively receptive to that format. If you really want to present information in an HTML formatted manner, but aren't sure if everyone receiving the email will be accepting of HTML emails, you might think about simply creating a webpage somewhere and linking to it from a text email.
I'd say "Maybe that's just me," but I know for a fact it's not.
-- Chad Perrin [ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
When I say the majority, I was referring to those discussing the topic on quarto list. Cormac, could you sent a sample of the last version of the mail so that Chad can understand what I mean by "best to use html" ?
Thanks
On Mon, Apr 18, 2005 at 09:41:58PM +0200, Anthere wrote:
When I say the majority, I was referring to those discussing the topic on quarto list. Cormac, could you sent a sample of the last version of the mail so that Chad can understand what I mean by "best to use html" ?
Is the group of people discussing it on the quarto list the sum total of people who will receive this email of which you speak?
-- Chad Perrin [ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
On 4/18/05, Chad Perrin perrin@apotheon.com wrote:
On Mon, Apr 18, 2005 at 09:41:58PM +0200, Anthere wrote:
When I say the majority, I was referring to those discussing the topic on quarto list. Cormac, could you sent a sample of the last version of the mail so that Chad can understand what I mean by "best to use html" ?
Is the group of people discussing it on the quarto list the sum total of people who will receive this email of which you speak?
The email is proposed to be distributed on the newly-created foundation-news-l mailing list, specifically set up for this purpose (and possibly other announcements though this hasn't been fully discussed). We've also thought about using it as a multilingual press release.
On multilinguality, is it any easier to display a multilingual message in a plain text email? Or does this require the html solution? (This is why html was proposed in the first place.)
Cormac
On Tue, Apr 19, 2005 at 12:45:54AM +0100, Cormac Lawler wrote:
On 4/18/05, Chad Perrin perrin@apotheon.com wrote:
On Mon, Apr 18, 2005 at 09:41:58PM +0200, Anthere wrote:
When I say the majority, I was referring to those discussing the topic on quarto list. Cormac, could you sent a sample of the last version of the mail so that Chad can understand what I mean by "best to use html" ?
Is the group of people discussing it on the quarto list the sum total of people who will receive this email of which you speak?
The email is proposed to be distributed on the newly-created foundation-news-l mailing list, specifically set up for this purpose (and possibly other announcements though this hasn't been fully discussed). We've also thought about using it as a multilingual press release.
On multilinguality, is it any easier to display a multilingual message in a plain text email? Or does this require the html solution? (This is why html was proposed in the first place.)
short answer: Yes.
slightly longer answer: The language for which a given computer is set up is the language in which that computer is going to be most easily able to render text. Thus, if you happen to be using an Arabic-language version of a given OS, it will display text as Arabic where that is the language in which the text is sent. Unicode, after all, wasn't just designed for the Web.
Now, granted, there are some languages that might suffer limitations in this area, but they'll tend to suffer the same limitations with displaying text in HTML as well. After all, text is text: text in HTML uses the same mechanism as text outside of HTML, unless the text is actually rendered as a static image, which is another ball of wax entirely.
-- Chad Perrin [ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
Chad Perrin a écrit:
On Tue, Apr 19, 2005 at 12:45:54AM +0100, Cormac Lawler wrote:
On 4/18/05, Chad Perrin perrin@apotheon.com wrote:
On Mon, Apr 18, 2005 at 09:41:58PM +0200, Anthere wrote:
When I say the majority, I was referring to those discussing the topic on quarto list. Cormac, could you sent a sample of the last version of the mail so that Chad can understand what I mean by "best to use html" ?
Is the group of people discussing it on the quarto list the sum total of people who will receive this email of which you speak?
The email is proposed to be distributed on the newly-created foundation-news-l mailing list, specifically set up for this purpose (and possibly other announcements though this hasn't been fully discussed). We've also thought about using it as a multilingual press release.
On multilinguality, is it any easier to display a multilingual message in a plain text email? Or does this require the html solution? (This is why html was proposed in the first place.)
short answer: Yes.
slightly longer answer: The language for which a given computer is set up is the language in which that computer is going to be most easily able to render text. Thus, if you happen to be using an Arabic-language version of a given OS, it will display text as Arabic where that is the language in which the text is sent. Unicode, after all, wasn't just designed for the Web.
Now, granted, there are some languages that might suffer limitations in this area, but they'll tend to suffer the same limitations with displaying text in HTML as well. After all, text is text: text in HTML uses the same mechanism as text outside of HTML, unless the text is actually rendered as a static image, which is another ball of wax entirely.
-- Chad Perrin [ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
This has already been discussed in length for the main page of Wikipedia. Displaying a certain content of text due to the language of the browser is not a good solution. It is not a solution that we direct readers to a *certain* type of quarto version depending on their browser settings.
Have you a solution for this ?
ant
On Tue, Apr 19, 2005 at 02:52:02AM +0200, Anthere wrote:
Chad Perrin a écrit:
slightly longer answer: The language for which a given computer is set up is the language in which that computer is going to be most easily able to render text. Thus, if you happen to be using an Arabic-language version of a given OS, it will display text as Arabic where that is the language in which the text is sent. Unicode, after all, wasn't just designed for the Web.
Now, granted, there are some languages that might suffer limitations in this area, but they'll tend to suffer the same limitations with displaying text in HTML as well. After all, text is text: text in HTML uses the same mechanism as text outside of HTML, unless the text is actually rendered as a static image, which is another ball of wax entirely.
-- Chad Perrin [ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
This has already been discussed in length for the main page of Wikipedia. Displaying a certain content of text due to the language of the browser is not a good solution. It is not a solution that we direct readers to a *certain* type of quarto version depending on their browser settings.
Have you a solution for this ?
I'm not even sure what you're talking about. I apologize, but somewhere in the midst of that I'm not following what you're saying. Could you perhaps rephrase or expand upon what you mean to say?
-- Chad Perrin [ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
Chad Perrin said:
Text email is universal. HTML email alienates a great many people. If I wanted to see HTML, I'd use a browser or an HTML editor.
One very good reason to be wary of html emails is that spammers, and even businesses that think of themselves as reputable, use web bugs, usually image tags to a 1x1 pixel image that cause the email, if read online, to transmit the IP number of the recipient at every time you look at it, alongside identifying information that may permit the spammer (or "reputable" business) to associate IP numbers with email addresses. The commercial value of this information to a spammer is inestimable, and it serves absolutely no legitimate purpose to the recipient. If you must send a html email, please send it multiparted with plaintext so that standards-compliant email systems can choose which version to display.
Chad Perrin wrote:
Text email is universal. HTML email alienates a great many people. If I wanted to see HTML, I'd use a browser or an HTML editor.
Check out this survey, done in 2003: http://www.wilsonweb.com/wmt8/email_format_preferences.htm
87% of the non-technical survey group reported being able to read HTML email, and 93% of the business group. HTML was reported to be preferred over plain text by both groups.
-- Tim Starling
On Tue, Apr 19, 2005 at 01:58:52PM +1000, Tim Starling wrote:
Chad Perrin wrote:
Text email is universal. HTML email alienates a great many people. If I wanted to see HTML, I'd use a browser or an HTML editor.
Check out this survey, done in 2003: http://www.wilsonweb.com/wmt8/email_format_preferences.htm
87% of the non-technical survey group reported being able to read HTML email, and 93% of the business group. HTML was reported to be preferred over plain text by both groups.
Oh, well, since it's more than 50% we can afford to just shoot and bury the remainder. Okay. No problem, then.
-- Chad Perrin [ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
Of course. Actually, I believe we've said that before - ie, that we don't need to make accommodations for a minority, even if it is a large one.
Mark
On 18/04/05, Chad Perrin perrin@apotheon.com wrote:
On Tue, Apr 19, 2005 at 01:58:52PM +1000, Tim Starling wrote:
Chad Perrin wrote:
Text email is universal. HTML email alienates a great many people. If I wanted to see HTML, I'd use a browser or an HTML editor.
Check out this survey, done in 2003: http://www.wilsonweb.com/wmt8/email_format_preferences.htm
87% of the non-technical survey group reported being able to read HTML email, and 93% of the business group. HTML was reported to be preferred over plain text by both groups.
Oh, well, since it's more than 50% we can afford to just shoot and bury the remainder. Okay. No problem, then.
-- Chad Perrin [ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ] _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Chad Perrin wrote:
On Tue, Apr 19, 2005 at 01:58:52PM +1000, Tim Starling wrote:
Chad Perrin wrote:
Text email is universal. HTML email alienates a great many people. If I wanted to see HTML, I'd use a browser or an HTML editor.
Check out this survey, done in 2003: http://www.wilsonweb.com/wmt8/email_format_preferences.htm
87% of the non-technical survey group reported being able to read HTML email, and 93% of the business group. HTML was reported to be preferred over plain text by both groups.
Oh, well, since it's more than 50% we can afford to just shoot and bury the remainder. Okay. No problem, then.
Excuse me, I never advocated one course of action over another. That was my first post to this thread. I have no strong opinion either way, so instead of adding to the bluster and speculation, I thought I'd contribute some relevant information, in the hopes that the opinions subsequently formed might be better educated. For the sake of civil discussion, please keep your temper in check.
-- Tim Starling
On Tue, Apr 19, 2005 at 02:49:56PM +1000, Tim Starling wrote:
Chad Perrin wrote:
On Tue, Apr 19, 2005 at 01:58:52PM +1000, Tim Starling wrote:
Chad Perrin wrote:
Text email is universal. HTML email alienates a great many people. If I wanted to see HTML, I'd use a browser or an HTML editor.
Check out this survey, done in 2003: http://www.wilsonweb.com/wmt8/email_format_preferences.htm
87% of the non-technical survey group reported being able to read HTML email, and 93% of the business group. HTML was reported to be preferred over plain text by both groups.
Oh, well, since it's more than 50% we can afford to just shoot and bury the remainder. Okay. No problem, then.
Excuse me, I never advocated one course of action over another. That was my first post to this thread. I have no strong opinion either way, so instead of adding to the bluster and speculation, I thought I'd contribute some relevant information, in the hopes that the opinions subsequently formed might be better educated. For the sake of civil discussion, please keep your temper in check.
Apparently, I wasn't clear in my intent. That wasn't temper: it was a bit of flippancy meant to point out the irrelevancy of a majority. The problem here is that, though users of text-only clients are a minority, it is not an insignificant minority -- and to actually EXCLUDE them is a suboptimal decision, at least.
My temper is in check, though my sense of humore may be obscure and perhaps tasteless at times.
-- Chad Perrin [ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
On Tue, Apr 19, 2005 at 12:54:52AM -0400, Chad Perrin wrote:
My temper is in check, though my sense of humore may be obscure and perhaps tasteless at times.
My sense of spelling might suffer some issues tonight, too. Humore?
-- Chad Perrin [ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
Chad Perrin wrote:
On Tue, Apr 19, 2005 at 12:54:52AM -0400, Chad Perrin wrote:
My temper is in check, though my sense of humore may be obscure and perhaps tasteless at times.
My sense of spelling might suffer some issues tonight, too. Humore?
I understood you completely.
Oh, well, since it's more than 50% we can afford to just shoot and bury the remainder. Okay. No problem, then.
A certain company has been using that same argument with their "version" of HTML for years. I laughed, because I knew you were being tongue-in-cheek.
(Hope this wraps OK)
On 4/18/05, Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
yo. I think most of us would prefer it to be in html... for quite a number of reason (such as links).
HTML mails would make me unsub, perhaps that wouldn't be universally bad. :)
As far as links go, your MUA should see them and make them clickable even without html mail, I'm sure someone here can make some recommendations for your platform...
Hmm.. Inline images might have been useful in our discussions about sexual images on wikipedia, I suppose... :)
Gregory Maxwell a écrit:
On 4/18/05, Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
yo. I think most of us would prefer it to be in html... for quite a number of reason (such as links).
HTML mails would make me unsub, perhaps that wouldn't be universally bad. :)
I did not understand what unsub means.
As far as links go, your MUA should see them and make them clickable even without html mail, I'm sure someone here can make some recommendations for your platform...
I have no idea what MUA means.
Hmm.. Inline images might have been useful in our discussions about sexual images on wikipedia, I suppose... :)
I can't figure what you mean.
If I may dare say... this mailing list is international. It would be helpful if people made an effort so as to be understandable to more people.
It is a general comment, not limited to you only. Maybe I am a bit stupid these days.
Ant
On Tue, Apr 19, 2005 at 07:50:03PM +0200, Anthere wrote:
Gregory Maxwell a écrit:
On 4/18/05, Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
yo. I think most of us would prefer it to be in html... for quite a number of reason (such as links).
HTML mails would make me unsub, perhaps that wouldn't be universally bad. :)
I did not understand what unsub means.
"un" and "subscribe" -- the opposite of subscribing
As far as links go, your MUA should see them and make them clickable even without html mail, I'm sure someone here can make some recommendations for your platform...
I have no idea what MUA means.
Mail User Agent, roughly equivalent to "mail client" or "email client": Outlook Express, Thunderbird, Sylpheed, Eudora, Pegasus, Evolution, Mutt, Pine, Elm, et cetera, all have MUA functionality.
Hmm.. Inline images might have been useful in our discussions about sexual images on wikipedia, I suppose... :)
I can't figure what you mean.
If I may dare say... this mailing list is international. It would be helpful if people made an effort so as to be understandable to more people.
A snide response to that might be to compare your request to that of others regarding a preference for text emails over HTML emails.
It is a general comment, not limited to you only. Maybe I am a bit stupid these days.
Nothing of the sort. Sometimes, we need to be reminded of where we're not making our modes of communication generally accessible, whether by poorly chosen presentation technologies or by heavy use of jargon and abbreviations.
-- Chad Perrin [ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
Ok, the main point of the proposed html mail is that it is multilingual. If you can convince me that a mail I (or whoever) send(s) will display in the appropriate language for a Japanese or Czech or Spanish viewer, I am almost sold. I tried this by copying the text in question viewed in unicode and got a load of rubbish for some symbols and a nothing but question marks for Japanese. Is this simply because i haven't got my computer set to czech, japanese etc? Is it this simple? If not, what does the sender have to do? (Bearing in mind that the idea is to have a whole message of many languages rather than having to target the language to the person - though not that anyone has actually said that.)
The secondary point is that a html layout would be attractive, which, if given the option, many would actively choose. Everyone who originally subscribed to foundation-news-l did so in the knowledge that the announcement was to be a html email (because I told them). Not to assume that everyone wants this, but just to put the objections here in context.
Cormac
Le Tuesday 19 April 2005 20:27, Cormac Lawler a écrit :
Ok, the main point of the proposed html mail is that it is multilingual. If you can convince me that a mail I (or whoever) send(s) will display in the appropriate language for a Japanese or Czech or Spanish viewer, I am almost sold.
No problem:
cs: Wikimedia Quarto je oficiální bulletin nadace Wikimedia.
de: Wikimedia Quarto ist der offizielle Newsletter der Wikimedia Foundation.
en: The Wikimedia Quarto is the official newsletter of Wikimedia Foundation.
es: Wikimedia Quarto es el boletín oficial de la Fundación Wikimedia.
fr: Wikimedia Quarto est la lettre d'informations officielle de Wikimedia Foundation.
it: Wikimedia Quarto è la newsletter ufficiale della fondazione Wikimedia.
ja: Wikimedia Quarto はウィキメディア財団の公式の広報誌です。第2号・
pl: Wikimedia Quarto to oficjalny biuletyn Fundacji Wikimedia.
pt: Wikimedia Quarto é o boletim oficial da Fundação Wikimedia.
Cormac
Regards, Yann
On 4/19/05, Yann Forget yann@forget-me.net wrote:
Le Tuesday 19 April 2005 20:27, Cormac Lawler a écrit :
Ok, the main point of the proposed html mail is that it is multilingual. If you can convince me that a mail I (or whoever) send(s) will display in the appropriate language for a Japanese or Czech or Spanish viewer, I am almost sold.
No problem:
cs: Wikimedia Quarto je oficiální bulletin nadace Wikimedia.
de: Wikimedia Quarto ist der offizielle Newsletter der Wikimedia Foundation.
en: The Wikimedia Quarto is the official newsletter of Wikimedia Foundation.
es: Wikimedia Quarto es el boletín oficial de la Fundación Wikimedia.
fr: Wikimedia Quarto est la lettre d'informations officielle de Wikimedia Foundation.
it: Wikimedia Quarto è la newsletter ufficiale della fondazione Wikimedia.
ja: Wikimedia Quarto はウィキメディア財団の公式の広報誌です。第2号・
pl: Wikimedia Quarto to oficjalny biuletyn Fundacji Wikimedia.
pt: Wikimedia Quarto é o boletim oficial da Fundação Wikimedia.
Cormac
Regards, Yann -- http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclopédie libre http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux
Thanks very much Yann and Mark - how exactly did you do this? I had more or less understood Chad originally, but when i tried doing as i said above, it didn't work in either of my mail clients, yahoo and gmail. Also, I still want to know why Anthere said this was a bad solution - I didn't really understand either. Cormac
𐌷𐌰𐌹𐌻𐍃 Cormac,
The way to do it is, copy the Unicode text, and then place it into gmail.
Gmail does after all support utf8 in outgoing messages.
(thus the Gothic text inthe first line of this e-mail)
Mark
On 19/04/05, Cormac Lawler cormaggio@gmail.com wrote:
On 4/19/05, Yann Forget yann@forget-me.net wrote:
Le Tuesday 19 April 2005 20:27, Cormac Lawler a écrit :
Ok, the main point of the proposed html mail is that it is multilingual. If you can convince me that a mail I (or whoever) send(s) will display in the appropriate language for a Japanese or Czech or Spanish viewer, I am almost sold.
No problem:
cs: Wikimedia Quarto je oficiální bulletin nadace Wikimedia.
de: Wikimedia Quarto ist der offizielle Newsletter der Wikimedia Foundation.
en: The Wikimedia Quarto is the official newsletter of Wikimedia Foundation.
es: Wikimedia Quarto es el boletín oficial de la Fundación Wikimedia.
fr: Wikimedia Quarto est la lettre d'informations officielle de Wikimedia Foundation.
it: Wikimedia Quarto è la newsletter ufficiale della fondazione Wikimedia.
ja: Wikimedia Quarto はウィキメディア財団の公式の広報誌です。第2号・
pl: Wikimedia Quarto to oficjalny biuletyn Fundacji Wikimedia.
pt: Wikimedia Quarto é o boletim oficial da Fundação Wikimedia.
Cormac
Regards, Yann -- http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclopédie libre http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux
Thanks very much Yann and Mark - how exactly did you do this? I had more or less understood Chad originally, but when i tried doing as i said above, it didn't work in either of my mail clients, yahoo and gmail. Also, I still want to know why Anthere said this was a bad solution - I didn't really understand either. Cormac
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Mark Williamson said:
ð·ð°ð¹ð»ð Cormac,
The way to do it is, copy the Unicode text, and then place it into gmail.
Gmail does after all support utf8 in outgoing messages.
(thus the Gothic text inthe first line of this e-mail)
To me it looks like a pussy cat, a OE digraph, repeated four times, first with a dot, then with a bubble, then with a little jumping baby "1", then with a pair of twin baby ">"s. Then there's a delta and a fancy f.
Tony Sidaway wrote:
To me it looks like a pussy cat, a OE digraph, repeated four times, first with a dot, then with a bubble, then with a little jumping baby "1", then with a pair of twin baby ">"s. Then there's a delta and a fancy f.
You are using SquirrelMail (version 1.2.6).
Their website is at http://www.squirrelmail.org/. In particular, http://www.squirrelmail.org/wiki/SeekingHelp seems to have several suggestions where you can complain about this bug.
Greetings, Timwi
Cormac Lawler a écrit:
On 4/19/05, Yann Forget yann@forget-me.net wrote:
Le Tuesday 19 April 2005 20:27, Cormac Lawler a écrit :
Ok, the main point of the proposed html mail is that it is multilingual. If you can convince me that a mail I (or whoever) send(s) will display in the appropriate language for a Japanese or Czech or Spanish viewer, I am almost sold.
No problem:
cs: Wikimedia Quarto je oficiální bulletin nadace Wikimedia.
de: Wikimedia Quarto ist der offizielle Newsletter der Wikimedia Foundation.
en: The Wikimedia Quarto is the official newsletter of Wikimedia Foundation.
es: Wikimedia Quarto es el boletín oficial de la Fundación Wikimedia.
fr: Wikimedia Quarto est la lettre d'informations officielle de Wikimedia Foundation.
it: Wikimedia Quarto è la newsletter ufficiale della fondazione Wikimedia.
ja: Wikimedia Quarto ?????????????????????2??
pl: Wikimedia Quarto to oficjalny biuletyn Fundacji Wikimedia.
pt: Wikimedia Quarto é o boletim oficial da Fundação Wikimedia.
Cormac
Regards, Yann -- http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclopédie libre http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux
Thanks very much Yann and Mark - how exactly did you do this? I had more or less understood Chad originally, but when i tried doing as i said above, it didn't work in either of my mail clients, yahoo and gmail. Also, I still want to know why Anthere said this was a bad solution - I didn't really understand either. Cormac
Possibly I understood nothing of what was proposed...
Here is what I understood.
I understood the message would be displayed in my email only in the language of my browser. Which would basically mean for me to display to me the explanation and announcement in french only, and only the link to the french quarto.
If this is so, sorry, but I do not support this at all.
I do not see why I would get only the link in french, when I would also been interested in the link in english. When I use my husband computer, the browser is in english, when would I not get the french link ? If I am in visit in Finland and I connect from an internet cafe, what is my interest in getting it in finnish ? And what happens for all browsers where the language is set in a language not covered by Quarto.
This is what I understood was suggested.
If I was wrong, I apology for not understanding
Anthere wrote:
I understood the message would be displayed in my email only in the language of my browser.
I'm not sure where you got that from. Your e-mail program is not supposed to know about (or care about) your browser's settings. Besides, there is no way to send out an e-mail in such a way that the recipient will only see a part of it (that is in a given language, for example).
My suggestion would simply be to host all the content on the web, and have all the links to all the languages in a plain-text e-mail.
Greetings, Timwi
On 4/19/05, Cormac Lawler cormaggio@gmail.com wrote:
Ok, the main point of the proposed html mail is that it is multilingual. If you can convince me that a mail I (or whoever)
This is entirely inaccurate.
UTF-8 encoding works through almost every mail system out there without special attachments. On Linux (the only platform I can speak with authority about), the common mail clients (with the exception of gnus inside emacs) will correctly decode utf-8.
Since the list is primarily in english, and a great many languages can be mostly expressed with plain ascii, the existence of a wealth of software that supports UTF8 should be sufficient.
By pushing HTML email you would make it very difficult to use my choice of mail client so that someone who wishes to write 日本語の言語 has the ability to use a greater number of the less featured mail clients. I do not think this is the correct optimization.
Gregory Maxwell a e'crit:
Since the list is primarily in english, and a great many languages can be mostly expressed with plain ascii, the existence of a wealth of software that supports UTF8 should be sufficient.
This list will absolutely NOT be primarily in english. Quite the opposite. It will be primarily in all languages covered by Quarto.
Ant
Bizarre. I tried exactly as Mark and others had told me in Yahoo and it didn't work - but now it works in Gmail, as the below text shows. But when I was testing the html versions, Gmail didn't display the text properly, whereas Yahoo did. And copying unicode text still doesn't work in Dreamweaver (it does in Word and Text Edit but I can't get them to then display a working html file).
Question - will this now work in every Mail client, regardless of their set up preferences? And does this satisfy your practical problem Anthere? (We'll hopefully deal with the aesthetics in due course.)
And once again, nobody's forcing anyone to accept this mail - hopefully we can provide a choice that suits all. And there are no images in the html version (although I originally wanted to include the wikimedia logo, but decided it was too much hassle).
Thanks Cormac
Cs
Wikimedia Quarto je oficiální bulletin nadace Wikimedia. Wikimedia Quarto č. 2 Edice Leden 2005 vyšlo 15. března. Nyní je dostupné v mnoha jazycích.
Mimo jiné obsahuje: pozdravy od dozorčí rady, Jimba a Anthere; rozhovor s Lawrencem Lessigem; čtvrtletní zprávy nadace z loňského podzimu; různé aktivity projektů Wikimedie.
Můžete se zapsat zde a nechat si poslat e-mailovou nebo tištěnou verzi bulletinu.
Pokud se zajímáte o publikování tohoto bulletinu, prosím přihlaste se do mailing listu quarto-l.
Wikimedia Quarto nyní přijímá texty pro číslo 3, které vyjde v dubnu. Další informace najdete na m:Talk:WQ/3.
Vaše ohlasy prosím směřujte na m:Talk:WQ.
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De
Wikimedia Quarto ist der offizielle Newsletter der Wikimedia Foundation. Wikimedia Quarto vol. 2 (Edition vom Januar 2005) wurde am 15. März veröffentlicht. Er ist in vielen verschiedenen Sprachen erhältlich.
Inhalt: Grüße des Board of Trustees, Jimbo und Anthere; ein Interview mit Lawrence Lessig; Quartalsbericht der Foundation aus dem letzten Herbst; diverse Aktivitäten der Wikimedia Projekte.
Du kannst dich hier eintragen um eine e-Mail oder Druck-Version des Newsletters zu bekommen.
Wenn du daran interssiert bist, den Newsletter zu veröffentlichen, trag dich bitte hier ein: quarto-l mailinglist.
Jetzt wird gerade eine ein Entwurf für den Wikimedia Quarto volume 3 erstellt, der im April erscheinen soll. Siehe m:Talk:WQ/3 für weitere Informationen.
Bitte teil uns dein Feedback auf m:Talk:WQ mit.
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En
The Wikimedia Quarto is the official newsletter of Wikimedia Foundation. Wikimedia Quarto vol.2 (January 2005) is currently available in 5 languages.
Content includes: greetings from the Board of Trustees; greetings from Jimbo and Anthere; an interview with Lawrence Lessig; the quarterly report of Foundation for the third tremester of 2004(from Oct. till Dec.); and reports on the diverse activities of the Wikimedia projects.
You can sign up for an email and/ or a print version of the newsletter.
If you are interested in the process of producing the newsletter, please subscribe to the quarto-l mailinglist.
Right now, Wikimedia Quarto is calling for submissions to volume 3, to be released in April, 2005. Please see m:Talk:WQ/3 for further information.
Post feedback on Wikimedia Quarto, vol. 2, to m:Talk:WQ.
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Es
Wikimedia Quarto es el boletín oficial de la Fundación Wikimedia. Wikimedia Quarto vol.2 Edición de enero de 2005 fue publicado el 15 de marzo. Está actualmente disponible en varios idiomas.
Su contenido incluye: Saludos de la Junta de Administración, Jimbo y Anthere; entrevista con Lawrence Lessig; Reporte trimestral de la Fundación del pasado trimestre; actividades diversas de los proyectos Wikimedia.
Puede anotarse para recibir la versión por correo o impresa del boletín.
Si está interesado la publicación del boletín, por favor suscríbase a lista de correos quarto-l.
Actualmente está abierta la recepción de colaboraciones para el volumen 3, para ser publicado en abril. Véase WQ/3 para mayor información.
Por favor escriba sus comentarios en m:Talk:WQ.
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Fr
Wikimedia Quarto est la lettre d'informations officielle de Wikimedia Foundation. Le numéro 2 (janvier 2005) est disponible en 5 langues.
Aperçu du contenu : messages de bienvenue du Conseil d'administration ; messages de Jimbo et Anthere ; interview avec Lawrence Lessig ; rapport de la Foundation pour le troisième trimestre 2004 (octobre à décembre) ; rapports sur les diverses activités des projets Wikimedia.
Vous pouvez vous inscrire pour une version mail et / ou papier de la lettre d'information.
Si vous souhaitez prendre part à l'élaboration de cette lettre, merci de vous abonner à la liste de diffusion quarto-l.
Wikimedia Quarto lance un appel à soumissions pour le numéro 3, prévu pour avril 2005. Merci d'aller voir m:Talk:WQ/3 pour plus d'informations.
Les avis et commentaires sur Wikimedia Quarto numéro 2 sont les bienvenus sur m:Talk:WQ.
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It
Wikimedia Quarto è la newsletter ufficiale della fondazione Wikimedia. Wikimedia Quarto vol.2 Edition of January 2005 è al momento è disponibile in 5 lingue.
Il suo contenuto include: saluti dal Consiglio di Amministrazione, saluti da Jimbo e Anthere; un'intervista con Lawrence Lessig; il rapporto trimestrale della Fondazione per il terzo trimestre del 2004 (da Ottobre a Dicembre); e rapporti sulle svariate attività dei progetti Wikimedia
Puoi iscriverti per ricevere una email e/o la versione per stampante della newsletter
Se sei interessato a a partecipare alla newsletter, iscriviti a quarto-l mailinglist.
Adesso Wikimedia Quarto è disponibile per la ricezione di aiuti per il volume 3, che verrà rilasciato in Aprile 2005. Per maggiori informazioni dà un'occhiata a m:Talk:WQ/3.
Invia qualsiasi commento a m:Talk:WQ.
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Ja
Wikimedia Quarto はウィキメディア財団の公式の広報誌です。第2号・2005年1月号は3月15日発行されました。現在5ヶ国語でお読みいただけます。また、第3号への原稿を募集中です。詳細はこちらをご覧下さい。。
第2号の内容：理事からのごあいさつ、財団と各プロジェクトの活動報告、インタビュー「ローレンス・レッシグ」、各国での報道など
印刷版またはメールでの購読をお申し込みになれます。購読申し込みはメタウィキのこちらのページにご登録ください。
広報誌の発行にご関心をお持ちの方は、Quarto メーリングリストへぜひご参加ください。
現在、第3号（4月刊行予定）へのご寄稿を受け付けています。詳しくはこちらをご覧下さい。
第2号をお読みになったご感想・ご意見はm:Talk:WQへお寄せください。
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Pl
Wikimedia Quarto to oficjalny biuletyn Fundacji Wikimedia. Wikimedia Quarto 2 ze stycznia 2005 jest obecnie dostępne w 5 językach.
W numerze: pozdrowienia od Rady Powierniczej, pozdrowienia od Jimbo i Anthere, wywiad z Lawrencem Lessigiem, raport kwartalny Fundacji na trzeci kwartał 2004 (od października do grudnia) oraz raporty o rozmaitych działaniach projektów Wikimediów.
Można się zapisać na odbiór biuletynu przez pocztę elektroniczną i/lub drukowanej wersji biuletynu.
Zainteresowanych pomocą przy tworzeniu biuletynu prosimy o zapisanie się na listę dyskusyjną quarto-l.
Obecnie Wikimedia Quarto wzywa do zgłoszeń materiałów do wydania 3, planowanego na kwiecień 2005. Więcej informacji na ten temat znajduje się po adresem m:Talk:WQ/3.
Zapraszamy do wyrażania opinii na temat Wikimedia Quarto 2 pod adresem m:Talk:WQ.
[edit]
Pt
Wikimedia Quarto é o boletim oficial da Fundação Wikimedia. Wikimedia Quarto vol.2 (Edição de janeiro de 2005) está atualmente disponível em 5 idiomas.
Seu conteúdo inclui: saudações do Conselho Diretivo, de Jimbo e de Anthere; uma entrevista com Lawrence Lessig; o relatório trimestral da Fundação para o terceiro trimestre de 2004 (de outubro a dezembro); e relatórios sobre diversas atividades de projetos da Wikimedia.
Você pode inscrever-se para receber uma versão para e-mail e/ou impressa do boletim.
Se estiver interessado no processo de confecção do boletim, increva-se na lista de e-mail quarto-l.
Atualmente, a Wikimedia Quarto está aceitando colaborações para o volume 3, a ser publicado em abril de 2005. Por favor, veja m:Talk:WQ/3 para mais informações.
Envie seus comentários sobre Wikimedia Quarto vol. 2 a m:Talk:WQ.
I'm going to temprorarily hijack this thread :)
Please think twice before making pdf's. pdf's are worse then html. Screenreaders cannot always handle pdf's since not all pdfs that contain text contain text, often they just contain images of the text. People with various reading problems (from simply needing reading glasses, to dyslexia) have no way to adapt a pdf to what they can read.
Thanks, I'll now step off my soapbox and let the debate rage on about the quarto mail.
Finne
Finne Boonen a écrit:
I'm going to temprorarily hijack this thread :)
Please think twice before making pdf's. pdf's are worse then html. Screenreaders cannot always handle pdf's since not all pdfs that contain text contain text, often they just contain images of the text. People with various reading problems (from simply needing reading glasses, to dyslexia) have no way to adapt a pdf to what they can read.
Thanks, I'll now step off my soapbox and let the debate rage on about the quarto mail.
Finne
Sigh...
If you were all so motivated to just get involved in WRITING IN the Quarto... :-)
/me returns trying to write the board report...
I started an article once, but it got lossed in my disorganised life and eventually vanished entirely.
Mark
On 19/04/05, Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
Finne Boonen a écrit:
I'm going to temprorarily hijack this thread :)
Please think twice before making pdf's. pdf's are worse then html. Screenreaders cannot always handle pdf's since not all pdfs that contain text contain text, often they just contain images of the text. People with various reading problems (from simply needing reading glasses, to dyslexia) have no way to adapt a pdf to what they can read.
Thanks, I'll now step off my soapbox and let the debate rage on about the quarto mail.
Finne
Sigh...
If you were all so motivated to just get involved in WRITING IN the Quarto... :-)
/me returns trying to write the board report...
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Hi!
On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 22:47:16 +0200, Finne Boonen wrote:
Screenreaders cannot always handle pdf's since not all pdfs that contain text contain text, often they just contain images of the text.
Well, I should think that something that in this case is made from text would be turned into a PDF consisting of text.
Alex
Whew! What a dust-up. Cormac rocks for helping coordinate this mailing, despite its crazy goal of being deeply language neutral. Multilingual announcements are harder than they look.
On 4/19/05, Cormac Lawler cormaggio@gmail.com wrote:
And once again, nobody's forcing anyone to accept this mail - hopefully we can provide a choice that suits all. And there are no images in the html version (although I originally wanted to include the wikimedia logo, but decided it was too much hassle).
When I viewed the original html email in my text-only mail reader (one which does not recognize and mark up URLs), it was legible and not aesthetically offensive, though it was clearly an HTML message. I think it was a good compromise between brevity and inclusivity (there's just no good way to scroll through 50 mini-paragraphs of text to find the one in your language, without some kind of TOC). On the other hand, this is just the other end of the spectrum of "how can we send PDFs to people who prefer to receive them by email without troubling those who don't?" ...
Starting out with a text email is simple, and will help limit the amount of work for you at first (Cormac). We can leave it at one sentence per language, and link to an on-wiki HTML version of the announcement... and then discuss offering more elaborate preferences later (while also working on the mechanics of maintaining the list).
SJ, regretting slightly that this conversation is in English on an English-dominated list
Ja
Wikimedia Quarto はウィキメディア財団の公式の広報誌です。第2号・2005年1月号は3月15日発行されました。現在5ヶ国語でお読みいただけます。また、第3号への原稿を募集中です。詳細はこちらをご覧下さい。。
Great. If you're feeling lucky, you should try it with some Malayalam text to be sure :-)
Uhh... how is it a crazy goal? What, should we forget the linguistic integrity and lingustic human rights of all the peoples of the world and tell them they can use English or go screw themselves? えええ・・・なぜ"Crazy goal"と言ったんだ?じゃ、それぞれの世界中の民族の言語的人権わすれて、英語をつかなきゃと言うべきと思ってるんの?
On a side note, "現在5ヶ国語" is wrong, I counted a total of 9 so it should be "Wikimedia Quartoはウィキメディア財団の公式の広報誌です。第2号・2005年1月号は3月15日発行されました。現在九ヶ国語でお読みいただけます。また、第3号への原稿を募集中です。詳細はこちらをご覧下さい。"
Also there's the problem that "国語" can often be taken to mean the language of a country, and thus exclude languages like Catalan and the like which are "nationless" (Catalan is official in Andorra, though). I've seen another term used instead but I don't remember what it is.
Mark
On 19/04/05, Sj 2.718281828@gmail.com wrote:
Whew! What a dust-up. Cormac rocks for helping coordinate this mailing, despite its crazy goal of being deeply language neutral. Multilingual announcements are harder than they look.
On 4/19/05, Cormac Lawler cormaggio@gmail.com wrote:
And once again, nobody's forcing anyone to accept this mail - hopefully we can provide a choice that suits all. And there are no images in the html version (although I originally wanted to include the wikimedia logo, but decided it was too much hassle).
When I viewed the original html email in my text-only mail reader (one which does not recognize and mark up URLs), it was legible and not aesthetically offensive, though it was clearly an HTML message. I think it was a good compromise between brevity and inclusivity (there's just no good way to scroll through 50 mini-paragraphs of text to find the one in your language, without some kind of TOC). On the other hand, this is just the other end of the spectrum of "how can we send PDFs to people who prefer to receive them by email without troubling those who don't?" ...
Starting out with a text email is simple, and will help limit the amount of work for you at first (Cormac). We can leave it at one sentence per language, and link to an on-wiki HTML version of the announcement... and then discuss offering more elaborate preferences later (while also working on the mechanics of maintaining the list).
SJ, regretting slightly that this conversation is in English on an English-dominated list
Ja
Wikimedia Quarto はウィキメディア財団の公式の広報誌です。第2号・2005年1月号は3月15日発行されました。現在5ヶ国語でお読みいただけます。また、第3号への原稿を募集中です。詳細はこちらをご覧下さい。。
Great. If you're feeling lucky, you should try it with some Malayalam text to be sure :-) _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Chad Perrin a écrit:
On Tue, Apr 19, 2005 at 07:50:03PM +0200, Anthere wrote:
Thanks for the explanation...
If I may dare say... this mailing list is international. It would be helpful if people made an effort so as to be understandable to more
people.
A snide response to that might be to compare your request to that of others regarding a preference for text emails over HTML emails.
And a comment could be that people are not forced to register to that list, and could very well get informed by other means than this list, hence little loss if they decide not to subscribe.
However, if I want to understand you, I have no other choice than reading your very long and very circonvoluted mails. And I believe that this is the first time I mention your mails are problematic to me. And I tried to say it politely Chad. I am not word playing here unfortunately.
On Tue, Apr 19, 2005 at 09:17:24PM +0200, Anthere wrote:
Chad Perrin a écrit:
On Tue, Apr 19, 2005 at 07:50:03PM +0200, Anthere wrote:
Thanks for the explanation...
If I may dare say... this mailing list is international. It would be helpful if people made an effort so as to be understandable to more
people.
A snide response to that might be to compare your request to that of others regarding a preference for text emails over HTML emails.
And a comment could be that people are not forced to register to that list, and could very well get informed by other means than this list, hence little loss if they decide not to subscribe.
The same applies to you, as well. If you don't like dealing with emails that are difficult to understand, you don't have to read them. I will, however, endeavor to be clearer.
However, if I want to understand you, I have no other choice than reading your very long and very circonvoluted mails. And I believe that this is the first time I mention your mails are problematic to me. And I tried to say it politely Chad. I am not word playing here unfortunately.
Thanks for pointing out where I've been less than perfectly clear. I'll try to fix that in the future.
-- Chad Perrin [ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
Anthere, I propose that those of us who can write messages bilingually if time allows. Anthere�����ܤǤ���r��˽�������Фζ������Z��������ˡ����������Z�Υ�å��`�������������ޤ���
Mark
On 19/04/05, Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
Gregory Maxwell a ��crit:
On 4/18/05, Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
yo. I think most of us would prefer it to be in html... for quite a number of reason (such as links).
HTML mails would make me unsub, perhaps that wouldn't be universally bad. :)
I did not understand what unsub means.
As far as links go, your MUA should see them and make them clickable even without html mail, I'm sure someone here can make some recommendations for your platform...
I have no idea what MUA means.
Hmm.. Inline images might have been useful in our discussions about sexual images on wikipedia, I suppose... :)
I can't figure what you mean.
If I may dare say... this mailing list is international. It would be helpful if people made an effort so as to be understandable to more people.
It is a general comment, not limited to you only. Maybe I am a bit stupid these days.
Ant
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Won't someone think of the irony?!?
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Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
--===============1487630956==--
I do that from time to time Mark, but then basically no one understand me and some even complain...
Mark Williamson a écrit:
Anthere, I propose that those of us who can write messages bilingually if time allows. Anthere????????????????????????????????????????????? Mark
On 4/19/05, Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
Gregory Maxwell a écrit:
HTML mails would make me unsub, perhaps that wouldn't be universally bad. :)
I did not understand what unsub means.
Unsubscribe. I would turn off my list membership. I do not wish to received HTML mail, .. Most html mail is spam, and most html mail is dropped by my aggressive spamfilters. If this list went HTML, I wold miss many messages, so I might as well unsubscribe.
I would probably not be alone.
As far as links go, your MUA should see them and make them clickable even without html mail, I'm sure someone here can make some recommendations for your platform...
I have no idea what MUA means.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUA
Hmm.. Inline images might have been useful in our discussions about sexual images on wikipedia, I suppose... :)
I can't figure what you mean.
HTML allows you to put pictures inside emails, not just links. It can be abused to show you images that you don't like. I would have found it amusing to abuse that feature when we were discussing blocking images, although I would not have actually done it. Other people might, and it is a reason you should not want html mail.
If I may dare say... this mailing list is international. It would be helpful if people made an effort so as to be understandable to more people.
It is a general comment, not limited to you only. Maybe I am a bit stupid these days.
I find this amusing: I used "MUA" in an effort to be clear since I knew the acronym was the same in all languages.
HTML email can exclude people in much the same way that using obscure English words can confuse non-native readers, except it is far easier and less harmful to avoid HTML than it is to avoid English that is difficult for nonnative readers of english.
Gregory Maxwell a écrit:
On 4/19/05, Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
Gregory Maxwell a écrit:
HTML mails would make me unsub, perhaps that wouldn't be universally bad. :)
I did not understand what unsub means.
Unsubscribe. I would turn off my list membership. I do not wish to received HTML mail, .. Most html mail is spam, and most html mail is dropped by my aggressive spamfilters. If this list went HTML, I wold miss many messages, so I might as well unsubscribe.
But WHO ever said this list will ever go html ????
I would probably not be alone.
As far as links go, your MUA should see them and make them clickable even without html mail, I'm sure someone here can make some recommendations for your platform...
I have no idea what MUA means.
I use the word client mail.
Hmm.. Inline images might have been useful in our discussions about sexual images on wikipedia, I suppose... :)
I can't figure what you mean.
HTML allows you to put pictures inside emails, not just links. It can be abused to show you images that you don't like. I would have found it amusing to abuse that feature when we were discussing blocking images, although I would not have actually done it. Other people might, and it is a reason you should not want html mail.
The argument is frankly very poor. No one will be able to post porn image from this list, since at least for now, only SJ and I are allowed to send messages with it. I do not intend to post porn. The fact other people might do is not a valid argument.
If I may dare say... this mailing list is international. It would be helpful if people made an effort so as to be understandable to more people.
It is a general comment, not limited to you only. Maybe I am a bit stupid these days.
I find this amusing: I used "MUA" in an effort to be clear since I knew the acronym was the same in all languages.
MUA is not frankly a word much used by most people :-)
HTML email can exclude people in much the same way that using obscure English words can confuse non-native readers, except it is far easier and less harmful to avoid HTML than it is to avoid English that is difficult for nonnative readers of english.
Right.
May I ask you a question ?
Have you ever read Quarto ?
Another question ?
Do you like beauty ?
On Tue, Apr 19, 2005 at 03:21:23PM -0400, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
On 4/19/05, Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
If I may dare say... this mailing list is international. It would be helpful if people made an effort so as to be understandable to more people.
It is a general comment, not limited to you only. Maybe I am a bit stupid these days.
I find this amusing: I used "MUA" in an effort to be clear since I knew the acronym was the same in all languages.
In this case, it looks like it was a matter of being unfamiliar with technical jargon rather than an internationalization issue.
-- Chad Perrin [ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
Tony Sidaway wrote:
I'm sorry if this sounds unhelpful, but could I please ask you to *reconsider* any impulse you might feel to produce emails in html? Text is much nicer.
*Completely* agree. I use my reader in text-only because HTML is, more often than not, very annoying. Maybe there could be a text-only and HTML version?
-- Blog: http://frazzydee.ca
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCS d? s:- a--- C+++ UL++ P+ L+ E---- W++ N+ o+ K+ w+ O? M-- V? PS++ PE Y PGP++ t 5-- X+ R tv b++ DI++ D+ G++ e- h! !r !z ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Faraaz Damji wrote:
Tony Sidaway wrote:
I'm sorry if this sounds unhelpful, but could I please ask you to *reconsider* any impulse you might feel to produce emails in html? Text is much nicer.
*Completely* agree. I use my reader in text-only because HTML is, more often than not, very annoying. Maybe there could be a text-only and HTML version?
Hoi, Quarto is a production where much effort is spend on producing a nice layout, this is to present what we do as well as possible. Without HTML it does not make the same impact. When you want to see what it looks like you can find old versions in the final format. It really looks much better that the pre production stuff.
It is nice that text has a high geek factor, HTML is for these purposes superior.
Thanks, GerardM
Gerard Meijssen (gerard.meijssen@gmail.com) [050419 07:10]:
Quarto is a production where much effort is spend on producing a nice layout, this is to present what we do as well as possible. Without HTML it does not make the same impact. When you want to see what it looks like you can find old versions in the final format. It really looks much better that the pre production stuff.
So make the email text and include a link to the HTML web page.
It is nice that text has a high geek factor, HTML is for these purposes superior.
High geek factor? In my mail client HTML email shows as the HTML.
Perhaps you could encode the entire thing in Flash. Then it could be animated as well and have a soundtrack. Surely that would be *far* superior to mere HTML.
- d.
Registering to that mailing list is NOT mandatory. It is a choice. If people do not want to receive a nice mail to tell them Quarto has been published, they can choose not to register and not to receive anything.
ant
David Gerard a écrit:
Gerard Meijssen (gerard.meijssen@gmail.com) [050419 07:10]:
Quarto is a production where much effort is spend on producing a nice layout, this is to present what we do as well as possible. Without HTML it does not make the same impact. When you want to see what it looks like you can find old versions in the final format. It really looks much better that the pre production stuff.
So make the email text and include a link to the HTML web page.
It is nice that text has a high geek factor, HTML is for these purposes superior.
High geek factor? In my mail client HTML email shows as the HTML.
Perhaps you could encode the entire thing in Flash. Then it could be animated as well and have a soundtrack. Surely that would be *far* superior to mere HTML.
- d.
Oops, left my computer for a while. Here's my work on the html email so far. There's nothing fancy about it - just text. The main difference between this and a plain text email though is that it is anchored so that you can go directly to the language version you prefer. It also gives a nicer layout of links.
I'm sorry if my initial reply to Tony was a bit abrupt - I still think that quarto-l is where this should be discussed, but I appreciate the opinions. Any replies to my initial query, ie why this version doesn't work?
Cormac
On Mon, Apr 18, 2005 at 11:09:49PM +0200, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Faraaz Damji wrote:
Tony Sidaway wrote:
I'm sorry if this sounds unhelpful, but could I please ask you to *reconsider* any impulse you might feel to produce emails in html? Text is much nicer.
*Completely* agree. I use my reader in text-only because HTML is, more often than not, very annoying. Maybe there could be a text-only and HTML version?
Hoi, Quarto is a production where much effort is spend on producing a nice layout, this is to present what we do as well as possible. Without HTML it does not make the same impact. When you want to see what it looks like you can find old versions in the final format. It really looks much better that the pre production stuff.
It is nice that text has a high geek factor, HTML is for these purposes superior.
That's nicely condescending-sounding. Of course, this has nothing to do with "geek factor" and everything to do with accessibility. As I tried to convey in other emails on the subject, HTML format is fine if the only people you're talking to are people who are, by mere virtue of being part of your target demographic, inclined to prefer HTML emails. If that's not the case, though, providing HTML versions and no text versions essentially makes your email so much garbage to many people.
This is akin to the arguments I see for making every website in the world Flash-enhanced. When I comment on the undesirability of Flash in many cases, I might get the "You Linux geeks are all the same!" response, but more than that I'm thinking about the millions of Web surfers on dial-up, the Flash version conflicts, the security issues involving remotely executed code, and so on. I'll add your "text has a high geek factor" pat on the head to the same wastebin as "You Linux geeks are all the same!"
If you really want the thing to look nice and be inaccessible to many, perhaps you should distribute it as a PDF attachment instead of an HTML email. The preferred reaction to finding out that some people don't like HTML cluttering up their inboxes, though, might simply be to provide an option for either text or HTML at subscription time. That way, people get what they want, rather than getting the entire HTML layout when all they want is information.
-- Chad Perrin [ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
Chad Perrin wrote:
[snip]
If you really want the thing to look nice and be inaccessible to many, perhaps you should distribute it as a PDF attachment instead of an HTML email. The preferred reaction to finding out that some people don't like HTML cluttering up their inboxes, though, might simply be to provide an option for either text or HTML at subscription time. That way, people get what they want, rather than getting the entire HTML layout when all they want is information.
Agreed. PDF is universal, pretty, and can have links in it - which is why someone wanted it in HTML in the first place.
On 4/19/05, Alphax alphasigmax@gmail.com wrote:
Chad Perrin wrote:
[snip]
If you really want the thing to look nice and be inaccessible to many, perhaps you should distribute it as a PDF attachment instead of an HTML email. The preferred reaction to finding out that some people don't like HTML cluttering up their inboxes, though, might simply be to provide an option for either text or HTML at subscription time. That way, people get what they want, rather than getting the entire HTML layout when all they want is information.
Agreed. PDF is universal, pretty, and can have links in it - which is why someone wanted it in HTML in the first place.
First of all, there seems to be misunderstanding about the content of this html email. It is not meant to be a full replica of the quarto, ie every page designed etc, but simply a pleasant layout of multilingual links to those already designed pages on the foundation wiki or meta. It would direct the person to the release message in their language (in the mail) and from here to the actual web version. There are also links at the side panel to these pages.
Secondly, if there is a way of multiparting this message with text and html - great! Let's do it. (How?)
Thirdly, that one pixel image used by spammers is surely inserted into the email by the spammers, no? I mean, we're not going to be doing that, right?
Finally, the PDF solution would be elegant, and could be used for the print version. One problem is that apparently we can't host that version on meta (as it's a proprietary format) and also, we would have to wait until the various versions are fully translated before we did this. But more fundamentally, we'd need someone to do it.
So, any volunteers to a) help me design this html email with multiparted text version or b) do some PDF versioning? I'm looking for solutions - not trying to ram a html email down anyone's throat.
Thanks Cormac
Cormac Lawler said:
Secondly, if there is a way of multiparting this message with text and html - great! Let's do it. (How?)
Not sure, but I suspect that some mailers, such as Outlook, may do this by default.
Thirdly, that one pixel image used by spammers is surely inserted into the email by the spammers, no? I mean, we're not going to be doing that, right?
Absolutely not. But it's a good reason not to interpret html emails if it is feasible to ignore them (for instance, they're definitely not from your boss, a client, or your mother) or read a text alternative. Spammers often send html-only because if you read the text version they don't get any feedback.
Cormac Lawler wrote:
[snip]
Finally, the PDF solution would be elegant, and could be used for the print version. One problem is that apparently we can't host that version on meta (as it's a proprietary format) and also, we would have to wait until the various versions are fully translated before we did this. But more fundamentally, we'd need someone to do it.
PDF is proprietary? But Free PDF readers and writers exist.
Alphax said:
Cormac Lawler wrote:
[snip]
Finally, the PDF solution would be elegant, and could be used for the print version. One problem is that apparently we can't host that version on meta (as it's a proprietary format) and also, we would have to wait until the various versions are fully translated before we did this. But more fundamentally, we'd need someone to do it.
PDF is proprietary? But Free PDF readers and writers exist.
PDF is an open format. Anybody can implement a writer or reader because the document standard is published. It is only proprietary in the sense that the Java language is proprietary. I believe there are some html-pdf document translators available. It isn't difficult.
Tony Sidaway wrote:
Alphax said:
Cormac Lawler wrote:
[snip]
Finally, the PDF solution would be elegant, and could be used for the print version. One problem is that apparently we can't host that version on meta (as it's a proprietary format) and also, we would have to wait until the various versions are fully translated before we did this. But more fundamentally, we'd need someone to do it.
PDF is proprietary? But Free PDF readers and writers exist.
PDF is an open format. Anybody can implement a writer or reader because the document standard is published. It is only proprietary in the sense that the Java language is proprietary. I believe there are some html-pdf document translators available. It isn't difficult.
So Adobe "owns" PDF in the same sense that Sun "owns" Java.
I've been meaning to get into the TeX thing for a while now... can DVIs be HTMLified? Can TeX have links in it?
I've been meaning to get into the TeX thing for a while now... can DVIs be HTMLified? Can TeX have links in it?
1) Use a TeX to HTML tool such as HeVeA or latex2html or whatever. 2) Yes. Some DVI viewers recognize hyperlinks. However, I do not recommend using DVI, because of external figures.
Alphax said:
So Adobe "owns" PDF in the same sense that Sun "owns" Java.
Yes. That is, only in the sense that Adobe has a registered trademark on the name "PDF" and exercises control over the standard. They don't own or control third-party PDF readers or writers.
I've been meaning to get into the TeX thing for a while now... can DVIs be HTMLified? Can TeX have links in it?
You can htmlize a DVI, but then it will be HTML, which is not a presentation format, so you have no real control over what it will look like.
On Tue, Apr 19, 2005 at 12:07:59PM +0100, Cormac Lawler wrote:
On 4/19/05, Alphax alphasigmax@gmail.com wrote:
Chad Perrin wrote:
[snip]
If you really want the thing to look nice and be inaccessible to many, perhaps you should distribute it as a PDF attachment instead of an HTML email. The preferred reaction to finding out that some people don't like HTML cluttering up their inboxes, though, might simply be to provide an option for either text or HTML at subscription time. That way, people get what they want, rather than getting the entire HTML layout when all they want is information.
Agreed. PDF is universal, pretty, and can have links in it - which is why someone wanted it in HTML in the first place.
First of all, there seems to be misunderstanding about the content of this html email. It is not meant to be a full replica of the quarto, ie every page designed etc, but simply a pleasant layout of multilingual links to those already designed pages on the foundation wiki or meta. It would direct the person to the release message in their language (in the mail) and from here to the actual web version. There are also links at the side panel to these pages.
In that case, I really don't see how gussying up what is effectively no more than a short blurb and a couple of links with HTML is worth alienating some readers.
Thirdly, that one pixel image used by spammers is surely inserted into the email by the spammers, no? I mean, we're not going to be doing that, right?
You miss the point. I don't think anyone is suggesting that HTML is avoided because they don't trust WMF's intentions. Rather, many of us have HTML rendering turned off even in HTML-capable email clients specifically because of the danger of opening an email that contains such dirty tricks as spammers use. Thus, even many HTML clients have been intentionally rendered incapable of rendering HTML for all practical purposes. Thus, the number of people unable to view an HTML email properly grows.
I currently use Mutt (a CLI email client), but not long ago I was getting list traffic through Thunderbird (a GUI email client). Even so, I was using "simplified HTML" settings that did not display images at all. The end result was that all that prettified HTML formatting spammers used was gone, as were inlined images. Although Thunderbird did a reasonably good job of turning HTML email into what looked like text-only email, it still rendered some HTML-formatted email into gibberish. Luckily, what it handled fairly well was email produced in email clients that had HTML formatting turned on by default -- which is all I really needed it to do, so that I could read emails from people who just didn't know any better.
These days, HTML email with inline images and fancy formatting is almost universally the territory of spammers, in my experience. How many people with the same experiences I've had do you want to exclude from your announcements? How many people being unable to read your announcement email would be considered "too many"?
I do web development for money. I'm in the midst of a fairly substantial project right now, in fact. One principle of design that I always advocate when working with the client for whom I'm doing the design is accessibility that is as universal as possible. It's for this reason that the html/xhtml code should be cross-browser tested, W3C standards compliant, and free of as much client-side scripting as possible. It should also be renderable to a text-based browser if at all possible. Email is even more constrained than webpages for purposes of accessibility, not only because of greater limitations on email clients than on browsers, but because people are more inclined to want nothing more than the information. The principles of providing maximum accessibility remain important, though.
Email is a communication medium, not interactive entertainment. One does not receive email "sites" where consistent navigation elements throughout are important characteristics. One receives a single, hopefully informative, communique, and perhaps some attachment files.
From where I sit, the justifications for HTML in email seem somewhat
hollow, when set against the matter of maximum accessibility, and much of that (to bring this full circle) is because of the common desire to avoid making oneself vulnerable to spammers.
If you turn off the functionality that makes you vulnerable to the dirty tricks of spammers who verify your address validity by use of HTML so they can spam you some more, you also turn off the functionality that makes an HTML email even readable.
Finally, the PDF solution would be elegant, and could be used for the print version. One problem is that apparently we can't host that version on meta (as it's a proprietary format) and also, we would have to wait until the various versions are fully translated before we did this. But more fundamentally, we'd need someone to do it.
The format was initially produced only by a proprietary application, but has subsequently been reverse-engineered so that it can be produced by any number of other applications, including even OpenOffice.org (a FLOSS competitor of Microsoft Office). Whether or not its proprietary roots is a problem is something that will have to be decided by other heads than mine.
-- Chad Perrin [ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
Chad Perrin wrote:
[snip]
I currently use Mutt (a CLI email client), but not long ago I was getting list traffic through Thunderbird (a GUI email client). Even so, I was using "simplified HTML" settings that did not display images at all. The end result was that all that prettified HTML formatting spammers used was gone, as were inlined images. Although Thunderbird did a reasonably good job of turning HTML email into what looked like text-only email, it still rendered some HTML-formatted email into gibberish. Luckily, what it handled fairly well was email produced in email clients that had HTML formatting turned on by default -- which is all I really needed it to do, so that I could read emails from people who just didn't know any better.
[snip]
Spam filters are fairly good these days. Thunderbird disables all images in HTML by default, unless you click "display" or add the sender to your address book, and HTML is disabled in spam by default.
Anyway, since quite a few email clients autolink things in plaintext emails, you could probably get away with sending it out as a bunch of links. Now if only their was an email client that would render Mediawiki markup...
On Wed, Apr 20, 2005 at 03:09:11AM +0930, Alphax wrote:
Chad Perrin wrote:
[snip]
I currently use Mutt (a CLI email client), but not long ago I was getting list traffic through Thunderbird (a GUI email client). Even so, I was using "simplified HTML" settings that did not display images at all. The end result was that all that prettified HTML formatting spammers used was gone, as were inlined images. Although Thunderbird did a reasonably good job of turning HTML email into what looked like text-only email, it still rendered some HTML-formatted email into gibberish. Luckily, what it handled fairly well was email produced in email clients that had HTML formatting turned on by default -- which is all I really needed it to do, so that I could read emails from people who just didn't know any better.
[snip]
Spam filters are fairly good these days. Thunderbird disables all images in HTML by default, unless you click "display" or add the sender to your address book, and HTML is disabled in spam by default.
. . . and I always check the directory to which I redirect spam to ensure that nothing in there is something I should actually be receiving.
In what version of Thunderbird do these default settings occur?
-- Chad Perrin [ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
Chad Perrin wrote:
On Wed, Apr 20, 2005 at 03:09:11AM +0930, Alphax wrote:
Chad Perrin wrote:
[snip]
I currently use Mutt (a CLI email client), but not long ago I was getting list traffic through Thunderbird (a GUI email client). Even so, I was using "simplified HTML" settings that did not display images at all. The end result was that all that prettified HTML formatting spammers used was gone, as were inlined images. Although Thunderbird did a reasonably good job of turning HTML email into what looked like text-only email, it still rendered some HTML-formatted email into gibberish. Luckily, what it handled fairly well was email produced in email clients that had HTML formatting turned on by default -- which is all I really needed it to do, so that I could read emails from people who just didn't know any better.
[snip]
Spam filters are fairly good these days. Thunderbird disables all images in HTML by default, unless you click "display" or add the sender to your address book, and HTML is disabled in spam by default.
. . . and I always check the directory to which I redirect spam to ensure that nothing in there is something I should actually be receiving.
In what version of Thunderbird do these default settings occur?
Well, I think it's the default - I'm using Thunderbird version 1.0 (20041206), but maybe I had to enable it in Options/Advanced/Privacy.
My supply of spam seems to have dried up. Lucky me.
"Chad Perrin" perrin@apotheon.com wrote in message news:20050419170832.GA5455@apotheon.com... [snip]
These days, HTML email with inline images and fancy formatting is almost universally the territory of spammers, in my experience.
On the basis of a quick scan through my Gmail folders, I can expect to receive this kind of email from: * Amazon * Shockwave * AbeBooks * The Book People * Genes/Friends Reunited * PayPal
Happily Gmail's default is to switch the images off. It also has the nice touch of checking whether any links have different base URL's to the email originator...at least I assume that's how it knows to warn me about possible phishing...
HTH HAND
Tony Sidaway wrote:
Gerard Meijssen said:
It is nice that text has a high geek factor, HTML is for these purposes superior.
Come again? What's geeky about sending information in a form that *doesn't* need a complex parser to unmangle
Hoi, It is considered to be geeky to have a commond line, it to be bare bones. Quarto is about presenting us in the best possible way. Plain text just does not cut it. Horses for courses and, presentation is king. We do need a nice presentation and it coming from us, it will not have micro dots. This is the stuff that we send to people who contribute money to inform them how well we do, therefore it needs the glossy look. It is not just for us who already know how we are doing/what we are doing. Thanks, GerardM
Gerard Meijssen wrote:
It is considered to be geeky to have a commond line, it to be bare bones. Quarto is about presenting us in the best possible way. Plain text just does not cut it.
Just be aware that HTML mail often looks *like crap*.
Rendering between different e-mail readers is very inconsistent, and security options and other limitations may often give you broken illegible images, etc.
If you'd like to give a bad impression of Wikimedia, then please use HTML mail. ;)
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
Brion Vibber wrote:
Gerard Meijssen wrote:
It is considered to be geeky to have a commond line, it to be bare bones. Quarto is about presenting us in the best possible way. Plain text just does not cut it.
Just be aware that HTML mail often looks *like crap*.
Rendering between different e-mail readers is very inconsistent, and security options and other limitations may often give you broken illegible images, etc.
If you'd like to give a bad impression of Wikimedia, then please use HTML mail. ;)
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
Hoi, :) An alternative is to send a .pdf. The bottom line is that it is well presented. Groetjes, GerardM
On Tue, Apr 19, 2005 at 12:20:33AM +0200, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Brion Vibber wrote:
Gerard Meijssen wrote:
It is considered to be geeky to have a commond line, it to be bare bones. Quarto is about presenting us in the best possible way. Plain text just does not cut it.
Just be aware that HTML mail often looks *like crap*.
Rendering between different e-mail readers is very inconsistent, and security options and other limitations may often give you broken illegible images, etc.
If you'd like to give a bad impression of Wikimedia, then please use HTML mail. ;)
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
Hoi, :) An alternative is to send a .pdf. The bottom line is that it is well presented. Groetjes, GerardM
Frankly, I'd rather have a PDF than an HTML email, though text would be easiest as it doesn't require any special applications or email settings to view.
-- Chad Perrin [ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
I use Windows almost always, use M$ Office, and actually don't even have Linux installed on my system.
I am by no measure a "Linux geek", and whatever geek I have in me is certainly not the type that effects my preferences on these sort of things, though I will admit that I tend to prefer notepad to wysiwyg editors for html.
I don't know any programming languages save what QBasic I learned from my grandpa when I was 4 or 5, and HTML if that can be considered a programming language.
Yet I still prefer plain text e-mails to HTML e-mails for most of the reasons that have already been stated.
Anthere said that subscription is not mandatory, and that if you don't want an e-mail you don't want to subscribe.
What about the people who DO want an e-mail, just not in HTML? Are we going to exclude them just because we have such high standards?
Does anybody even realise that HTML e-mails display very differently in different clients?
Or that many people have turned support for HTML e-mails off because of 1-pixel images as described above and other malicious uses of HTML?
Why not offer an option?
Or even better, why not send people a plain-text e-mail with a LINK to an actual website with the newsletter?
And I'm sorry, but "quarto" just sounds to me like an aborted attempt at a cartoon villain. When I say it it sounds like "court-o" or "cord-o". And really, I don't think it sounds nice. Why not just "quarterly report" like the rest of the world does?
Mark
On 18/04/05, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Tony Sidaway wrote:
Gerard Meijssen said:
It is nice that text has a high geek factor, HTML is for these purposes superior.
Come again? What's geeky about sending information in a form that *doesn't* need a complex parser to unmangle
Hoi, It is considered to be geeky to have a commond line, it to be bare bones. Quarto is about presenting us in the best possible way. Plain text just does not cut it. Horses for courses and, presentation is king. We do need a nice presentation and it coming from us, it will not have micro dots. This is the stuff that we send to people who contribute money to inform them how well we do, therefore it needs the glossy look. It is not just for us who already know how we are doing/what we are doing. Thanks, GerardM _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Mark Williamson a écrit:
I use Windows almost always, use M$ Office, and actually don't even have Linux installed on my system.
I am by no measure a "Linux geek", and whatever geek I have in me is certainly not the type that effects my preferences on these sort of things, though I will admit that I tend to prefer notepad to wysiwyg editors for html.
I don't know any programming languages save what QBasic I learned from my grandpa when I was 4 or 5, and HTML if that can be considered a programming language.
Yet I still prefer plain text e-mails to HTML e-mails for most of the reasons that have already been stated.
Anthere said that subscription is not mandatory, and that if you don't want an e-mail you don't want to subscribe.
What about the people who DO want an e-mail, just not in HTML? Are we going to exclude them just because we have such high standards?
We will not exclude them. Anyone can also see the quarto out on most project main pages and it is announced as well in mailing list.
What we are currently trying to do is to set up an additional system to announce it.
Does anybody even realise that HTML e-mails display very differently in different clients?
Or that many people have turned support for HTML e-mails off because of 1-pixel images as described above and other malicious uses of HTML?
Why not offer an option?
Are you ready to take care of the development on that topic ?
Or even better, why not send people a plain-text e-mail with a LINK to an actual website with the newsletter?
Because we can not send A link. Depending on the language people talk, they will choose amongst for example 15 different links.
And I'm sorry, but "quarto" just sounds to me like an aborted attempt at a cartoon villain. When I say it it sounds like "court-o" or "cord-o". And really, I don't think it sounds nice. Why not just "quarterly report" like the rest of the world does?
Mark
Because Wikipedia is not doing things like the rest of the world does.
ant
Mark Williamson a écrit:
I use Windows almost always, use M$ Office, and actually don't even have Linux installed on my system.
I am by no measure a "Linux geek", and whatever geek I have in me is certainly not the type that effects my preferences on these sort of things, though I will admit that I tend to prefer notepad to wysiwyg editors for html.
I don't know any programming languages save what QBasic I learned from my grandpa when I was 4 or 5, and HTML if that can be considered a programming language.
Yet I still prefer plain text e-mails to HTML e-mails for most of the reasons that have already been stated.
Anthere said that subscription is not mandatory, and that if you don't want an e-mail you don't want to subscribe.
What about the people who DO want an e-mail, just not in HTML? Are we going to exclude them just because we have such high standards?
We will not exclude them. Anyone can also see the quarto out on most project main pages and it is announced as well in mailing list.
What we are currently trying to do is to set up an additional system to announce it.
Right, and the "additional system" you are setting up excludes those people.
Does anybody even realise that HTML e-mails display very differently in different clients?
Or that many people have turned support for HTML e-mails off because of 1-pixel images as described above and other malicious uses of HTML?
Why not offer an option?
Are you ready to take care of the development on that topic ?
Or even better, why not send people a plain-text e-mail with a LINK to an actual website with the newsletter?
Because we can not send A link. Depending on the language people talk, they will choose amongst for example 15 different links.
Why not direct them to a site offering a choice of language? Or have 15 different links in the e-mail? Or have them choose their preferred language when they sign for the list in the first place?
And I'm sorry, but "quarto" just sounds to me like an aborted attempt at a cartoon villain. When I say it it sounds like "court-o" or "cord-o". And really, I don't think it sounds nice. Why not just "quarterly report" like the rest of the world does?
Mark
Because Wikipedia is not doing things like the rest of the world does.
If we're so intent on doing things differently, why not create a whole new spelling system just for Wikipedia? Wykkypedya, ddjaae fryy ensyyklyyypeedyya, lykz twu dwu ttjyynkz dfrryyntliiyy frwom ddjeea rheestj uobfvh ddjaae vwyyryld, swwo myttsj swwo ddjaet vwiyy gwoow awowt uobfvh uoowr wyye zjyyyst swwwo vweyy kyyn byy dfyyrnt. Or why not force everybody who deals with the foundation to use a new currency just for us called Wikimedian Gildollrils whose exchange rate is reset monthly by a random-number generator?
Just because we take a different approach to writing an encyclopaedia/dictionary/etc., doesn't mean we have to do everything differently. As I said before "quarterly report" is already a familiar term to many people, but "quarto" sounds dorky and not serious. "quarterly report" doesn't convey to me a sense of "We are just like everybody else".
If we want to use different terminology, why not use it for everything? We can call an encyclopaedia a Encyclo (sounds just as cute as quarto), we can call "foundation" Foundo, we can call "board" Boardo, we can call "fund drive" Fundo, we can call "designated agent" Designato, mailinglist can be called Listo, organisation members can be called Orgos or Membos, and Jimbo Wales can be the Foundo - but then that conflicts with our new term for "foundation". So perhaps we can call him Origino?
Mark
wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org