I'm not sure if you intended that as an attack on me, but regardless I
want to remind you:
Without my advocacy, the Sicilian Wikipedia which is now at nearly
1000 articles would probably never have been created, the Friulian one
may never have been created (though, unlike with Sicilian, there were
already Wikipedians who wanted a Wikipedia in their language), and the
Sardinian one would probably have been requested just a couple of
weeks ago.
I am also confident that in some way or another my advocacy helped in
the development of the Georgian, Armenian, Maltese, Bangla, Sami,
Chuvash, and other Wikipedias where I suggested to people that they
request sysop status and translate the interface.
Despite all that though, for every single one of those Wikipedias,
most of the work that got them to where they are now was done by
dedicated native speakers - I didn't have much of a role in any of
them after the very beginning (though Pippu D'Angelo and I still
correspond sort of).
Sending out 100 e-mails letting people know that there is a Wikipedia
in their language generally gets me about 10 responses, and if I am
lucky 1 or 2 actual long-term contributors.
But it doesn't cost anybody any money.
Mark
On 30/05/05, Ray Saintonge <saintonge(a)telus.net> wrote:
Anthere wrote:
Ray Saintonge a écrit:
V. Ivanov wrote:
> 2005/5/28, Timwi <timwi(a)gmx.net>et>:
>
>> Maybe we should make this concept better known globally. Maybe we
>> should organise a list of Wikipedians who are prepared to give
money to
>> poor people in return for an article in a
language that has an
inactive
>> Wikipedia. The Wikipedians would be able
to specify any conditions,
>
> Say, offer a preferable topic or even a certain article (or article
set).
I
would be wary of any scheme to pay people for articles. We have
prided ourselves on an all volunteer production in all languages.
The one thing that is not mentioned in the discussion is who would fund
this proposal. Is there a rich Ossetian benefactor willing to pay for
this idea? There are many other languages that could benefit from this
approach, but it should not be the responsibility of the general
community to pay for such things in other languages either.
Hi Ec
This is not a proposal, it already exist.
It is currently funded by individuals, who may or may not be
contributors. I just do not know.
We do not have to say anything about this, it exists, it is
independant and anyone should be free to find a way to help promote
one language. I think the best *we* can do as *editors*, is to help
them in their organisation, and also help them transform these
teachers in more permanent editors in the long term (feeling proud of
a good article featured on home page is one of these ways... there are
others...). Typical limitation could be "we offer you money for a good
article, but for no more than xx articles".
I'm satisfied to know that the funding for this is local. As long as
it's clear that the funding for this sort of thing comes from a local
organization there can be no liability by WMF in general for unkept
promises or other legal problems. Perhaps it would be good to have a
written policy by the Board disclaiming responsibility for local
activity, which would be the subject of local law.
The more positive attitude that I have is that funding from people
directly interested in a language will do more for that Wikipedia (or
Wiktionary) than any kind of advocating that someone like Mark would
do. Those of us who to whom Ossetian and Bambara are nothing more than
entries in a dictionary of languages can do nothing practical about the
development of Wikis in those languages. Local organizations should
also feel free to seek government funding for work on their own
language. African governments are notoriously poor, and cannot be
expected to do much, but even they can gain better support from their
own population by investing small amounts in the right places. Small
amounts invested by an African government to protect local culture from
aggressive foreign languages may be more productive than anything that
Mr. Chirac can sapend in support of his own seriously endangered language.
But you raise an important issue, which is
whether *we* as an
*organisation* should financially help similar ideas (ie, paying
editors). Of course, this requires specific requirements (such as
control, validation of final quality, starting language with few
editors expected, local organisers etc...), but on the concept, should
we or should we not ?
No minor language project can succeed unles it has at least one highly
dedicated who can guide the project through its infancy, and begin to
attract others to the project. The down side of this is that a new
project may express a strong POV on such delicate subjects as Ossetian
independance. Beyond those early days when the need is to develop
functioning software, the next test becomes how it deals with other
personalities that have an equally strong butdifferent POV.
You are perfectly allright : till now, editors
have always been
volunteers. Which could be the consequences that start paying some,
even if it is on a small and little know language ?
Again, to have a sucessful project the initiative must come from those
who would belong to that project, not from those of us sitting in our
rich country idealism. We can make them aware of the possibilities; we
can even supply hardware. Beyond that it's up to them. A football team
that does not kick the ball does not win.
As a reminder, only 3 people have till now
financially directly making
benefits. Larry initially, now Brion and Chad Perrin. Another person
should soon be welcome as well to help with the paperwork. The three
last people concerned, paid by or soon to be paid by the Foundation,
have received the approval from Jimbo, Angela and myself... and that
the three are americans exclusively. Other benefits made in terms of
"personal income" were non direct (such as development contracts with
other organisations).
Larry was probably a necessary wet nurse in his time. While Jimbe
likely needed to more directly spend time with the infrastructure then,
engineering a working model of the intellectual structure was a big
job. The initiator of a new project should not need to worry about
infrastructure or the development of a working model. He can be more
quickly involved with content. Brion and Chad are not being paid for
content, but for more technical services that couldn't be done
otherwise. We can accomodate dilletantes among content providers where
we have many. There are as many dilletantes in the world of software
development, often with many ideas and little practical experience. In
that environment a hired cat-herder is very important.
I'm not up-to-date on the need for a paperwork person, but it's easy to
imagine that need in an organisation that's so big. I appreciate your
point about the positions being filled by Americans. For Chad's
position I don't think that other viable options were available, and
Brion is probably the best person for the job, nationality
notwithstanding. I can't comment on the paperwork person, because I
don't know exactly what needs to be done, though I suspect much of it
may have to do with preparing reports to comply with American laws. The
role of Americans in many international situations is a very sensitive
issue with many competing facets that go beyond our little project. It
would be unwise for me to go further down that road at this time.
Given that the goal of the Foundation is "to
encouraging the growth,
development and distribution of free, multilingual content, and to
providing the full content of these wiki-based projects to the public
free of charge", I would say that supporting such projects (ie, paying
editors in certain specific conditions) is within our area of action.
What I do not know is whether it would be acceptable to do it with
donation money, or if grants should be seek (sought ?) to support such
an involvement. I would really welcome opinions on this. In the past
year, I have seen little criticizing (as opposed to supporting)
comments related to the way the Foundation money should be spent, but
for comments saying (a year ago) that developers should get paid in
priorities before Angie and my costs be reimbursed, or comments saying
(early 2005) that with all the money we got, the website should be
more accessible.
Since you raised the point, "sought" is the correct usage there.
I oppose a general policy of paying editors. The effect of that is to
set up two classes of editors, and that results in quite a different
dynamicamong the editors. Even if it becomes necessary to pay someone
to provide organizational coherence to a specific project, it should be
made clear that he is not being paid to edit. Such paid jobs should
have a limited duration with no possibility of rehiring for a period of
time that is at least twice as long as the job lasted.
Reimbursing someone for her proper expenses is completely different from
paying that person for the job that she does. I think that the comments
that you cite are made out of ignorance by someone who has never had to
do business. If you need to travel somewhere as an official
representative of the WMF you certainly should not need to pay for your
own plane fare
So, I am not sure whether it would be globally
acceptable, borderline
but acceptable, or frankly unacceptable to the editors or not.
Perhaps a beginning of an answer would be that current developers do
not seem overall to be mad with the idea of Chad and Brion be paid,
while they are not. It may be because they consider Brion has been
working a lot for the project and deserve to be partially paid by the
Foundation, it may be because they consider that Chad work is required
and can not be done any more by Jimbo. In short, it is acceptable
because one is known and loved, and acceptable because the other is
seen as doing a mandatory job. I am not sure, not being in the
developer team. I suppose participation to such project will be
possibly acceptable to editors if they can see where the benefits
stands. Just thoughts. Waiting for all of yours.
There are two aspects of such hiring decisions: do we need to fill such
a position, and who should be that person. If we don't need to hire
somebody it is pointless to look for somebody to hire. The job needs to
be defined first.
Ec
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