Just to keep up with information.... I saw an announcement today in two websites, so thought it worth to say a bit about it
.... Perhaps to divert our gentle editors from daily life in France or in the USA ... (grin)
News from a very minor wikipedia (I think this deserves to be reported in next Quarto Sj, I'll write up a bit....)
The association Geekcorps recently (it started possibly 2 months ago) made a lot of efforts to try to stimulate a minor wikipedia in an african language. Along with work in translation of the interface, addition of major rules and principles of Wikipedia, Geekcorps also decided to motivate editors speaking bambara in Mali to participate to the bambara wikipedia (http://bm.wikipedia.org) in a *financial* way.
The conditions : to live in Mali and to be able to write in bambara. The prize is : 200 CFA to earn per article written with at least 200 words (max 5000 CFA per person) plus a bonus prize for specific actions. Specific actions are 1) translation of document or interface 2) start a wikibooks on Bamanankan 3) start Bamanankan Wikiquotes 4) start Bamanankan Wiktionary 5) start another wikipedia in other languages spoken in Mali
(Note that there are no requirement of quality to get the prize per article, but the length)
Geekcorps also remind to Mali editors that Mali people might be interested in the following languages * french (fr) * english (en) * fulfude (ff) * wolof (wo)
----------------
The bambara version is still not very active, but Guaka is working on it from time to time. But what I find interesting is the organisation proposal... this way might be one of the good ones to really get such versions off the ground. Ie, a wikipedia being babysitted by a local organisation.
I think there is much interest in following such initiatives. What do you think ?
Please also look at the site of MaliWiki : http://mali.geekcorps.org/mediawiki/index.php/Accueil (based on mediawiki)
----------------
Note that there are a couple of slightly embarassing little issues related to these attempts by local organisations. For example, when an organisation (ANAFA) made some work on the wolof version about 3 months ago, someone asked me a sysop account, which I gave (usual process for small projects). I however noticed soon after that the main page was a bit cluttered with quite a bit of advertisement for their organisation. (see for example http://wo.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&oldid=1482) I tried to discuss to them about that, and since we did not really reached an agreement, I had to remove the sysop status.
Since then, the wo is inactive.
Ant
--------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site!
The idea is not absolutely new. We use the absolutely similar approach at the Ossetic Wikipedia (we call it "Project <<Tskhinval Teachers>>". The essence of the project is paying teachers from South Ossetia a 2,5-USD equivalent for every article (up from 2500 characters). We pay nothing for the first article (regarding it as a test).
The Project have started in the middle of April and by now we have 3 interested persons in S. Ossetia, an extremely poor region where 2,5 USD can buy much more than even in the neighbouring North Ossetia. Two large articles (both about Ossetian-language writers; but we do not really limit the topics) have been already prepared; you can see them both: http://os.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%B6%D1%83%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B9%D1%82%D1%8... http://os.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%B7%D1%83%D1%86%D1%86%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8...
We are working on widening the network of involved teachers (and we are also planning to involve local Ossetian-language journalists from South Ossetia). We are also seeking ways to enlarge the funds of the Project, for now we can pay not more than 20 articles by the whole accumulated money (and we would like not only to pay for articles, but also use some money for local advertisement of Wikipedia in both South and North Ossetia).
The Project is not run by any organization, but by a group of independent persons (mostly in North Ossetia and Moscow) interested in the success of the Ossetian Wikipedia. So it's void of the risk, you mentioned concerning the wo.wikipedia.
Best wishes, Slavik
PS: We still have problems about statistics page in our WP: see http://os.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Statistics Can somebody fix that?
2005/5/27, Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com:
Just to keep up with information.... I saw an announcement today in two websites, so thought it worth to say a bit about it
...
The association Geekcorps recently (it started possibly 2 months ago) made a lot of efforts to try to stimulate a minor wikipedia in an african language. Along with work in translation of the interface, addition of major rules and principles of Wikipedia, Geekcorps also decided to motivate editors speaking bambara in Mali to participate to the bambara wikipedia (http://bm.wikipedia.org) in a *financial* way.
The conditions : to live in Mali and to be able to write in bambara. The prize is : 200 CFA to earn per article written with at least 200 words (max 5000 CFA per person) plus a bonus prize for specific actions.
V. Ivanov a écrit:
Hello Slavik
Thanks for your mail
The idea is not absolutely new.
We also mentionned it a few months ago as a solution to speed up the thai language, but as far as I know, it did not lead to anything for now.
We use the absolutely similar approach at the Ossetic Wikipedia (we call it "Project <<Tskhinval Teachers>>". The essence of the project is paying teachers from South Ossetia a 2,5-USD equivalent for every article (up from 2500 characters). We pay nothing for the first article (regarding it as a test).
The Project have started in the middle of April and by now we have 3 interested persons in S. Ossetia, an extremely poor region where 2,5 USD can buy much more than even in the neighbouring North Ossetia. Two large articles (both about Ossetian-language writers; but we do not really limit the topics) have been already prepared; you can see them both:
http://os.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%B6%D1%83%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B9%D1%82%D1%8...
http://os.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%B7%D1%83%D1%86%D1%86%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8...
We are working on widening the network of involved teachers (and we are also planning to involve local Ossetian-language journalists from South Ossetia). We are also seeking ways to enlarge the funds of the Project, for now we can pay not more than 20 articles by the whole accumulated money (and we would like not only to pay for articles, but also use some money for local advertisement of Wikipedia in both South and North Ossetia).
The Project is not run by any organization, but by a group of independent persons (mostly in North Ossetia and Moscow) interested in the success of the Ossetian Wikipedia. So it's void of the risk, you mentioned concerning the wo.wikipedia.
Best wishes, Slavik
I am interested in your experience... I went to see the wiki (difficult, I mostly see ??? on my computer), and I saw that aside from ip contributions, the main two contributors are a bot (it could be hidden if you wish this) and Amikeco.
Are you Amikeco or is it one of the authors you mentionned ? If Amikeco is not the direct author of the article, does that mean he copied in wikipedia the article written by another ?
I was also wondering if you set a sort of "validation" of the articles written (a check of the quality of the article) ? Can you tell me how many people are behind this experience ? Did they contacted teachers they knew otherwise, or did a sort of list out of a university or high school ?
I can perceive several ways to push the idea. Possibly organising a presentation in a school or university, getting there with a poster, some leaflets. Aside from financial issues, what are you exactly planning to do in the future ? I really find the idea very interesting and I would love to know more about what you are doing.
Anthere
2005/5/27, Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com:
I am interested in your experience... I went to see the wiki (difficult, I mostly see ??? on my computer), and I saw that aside from ip contributions, the main two contributors are a bot (it could be hidden if you wish this) and Amikeco.
I am also very happy about the users Alard and Ruslan (the letter name in Cyrillic): Alard helps immensely as a native speaker from a smaller town of Alagir; he works at an IT firm and is always on line, I can consult him via ICQ at any time; Ruslan is a native speaker of Digor dialect and he contributes about the places in western Ossetia, where the dialect is been spoken. He also promises a comprehensive article about Digor for the speakers of the main form.
Are you Amikeco or is it one of the authors you mentionned ?
ru, os, eo, av, cv:Amikeco/m:Slavik IVANOV
If Amikeco is not the direct author of the article, does that mean he copied in wikipedia the article written by another ?
As for the articles coming from the South Ossetian teachers, I get them by e-mail and put them to WP (after wikifying; they come as a simple text file or a Word file).
I was also wondering if you set a sort of "validation" of the articles written (a check of the quality of the article)?
Well, the validation is really simple by now: 1. Check numbers as far as it's possible (first of all dates of birth and death for biography articles); 2. Give the text to a native speaker from the North to test how understandable it is. Sometimes a phrase or two are not well composed and we change word order or do similare editing. I also have to pay attention to spelling: I have learnt the language by books and newspapers, so my spelling is very good (for me the Ossetic is first of all a written language), but for most Ossetians the language is first of all a spoken one -- and they often do spelling mistakes.
Can you tell me how many people are behind this experience?
1 active teacher (female under 30), two more interested but not writing yet. Other people involved are: - volunteer co-ordinator in Tshkhinval (local journalist, ethic Ossetian): he helps us interact with the writers via e-mail; - volunteer co-ordinator at the Ossetic WP (me): putting the texts, wikifying them, spell-checking, finding proof-readers, raising funds, writing articles to Ossetia-related sites like iriston.ru, iryston.com and ossetia.ru, etc. - proof-readers (3 native speakers), sponsors (4 persons).
Did they contacted teachers they knew otherwise, or did a sort of list out of a university or high school?
The journalist informed the locals about the "first encyclopedia in Ossetian"; some of them got interested. Neither computers, nor Internet are widely available in S.Ossetia -- so the interest could rest just the interest, but then the bright idea appeared... :) And we proposed the payed writing for the persons, who were, as we had already known, really interested. We didn't advertised the project much because of 2 reasons: - we don't have much funds: maybe 5-20 articles a month are our limit; - we wouldn't like to make other people think that writing for WP must be payed; may they write for free if they can.
I can perceive several ways to push the idea. Possibly organising a presentation in a school or university,
You see, the schools and universities of a higher quality group are at Vladikavkaz. There Ossetians no longer use the language for scientific or similar purposes: the Russian is prevailing. The task of the Project is not only to find chip writers, but also to find the last literate speakers of Ossetian and pay them for being used.
Among our further plans is looking for such people in the villages of North Ossetia, where exists at least one highly literate group: the teachers of the Ossetian language. But most of them are not at all good computer users... So we have many interesting challenges.
We are also planning to meet authorities of the North Ossetian State University in order to organize presentations of Wikipedia at several faculties. The future Ossetian philologists and journalists might get much experience from writing texts in WP. Still such a presentation does not seem possible in the nearest future, for it's not easy for me to go to Vladikavkaz now. Born there, I live in St.Petersburg at the Baltic Sea at the moment.
Sl.
V. Ivanov a écrit:
2005/5/27, Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com:
Hi
I am interested in your experience... I went to see the wiki (difficult, I mostly see ??? on my computer), and I saw that aside from ip contributions, the main two contributors are a bot (it could be hidden if you wish this) and Amikeco.
I am also very happy about the users Alard and Ruslan (the letter name in Cyrillic): Alard helps immensely as a native speaker from a smaller town of Alagir; he works at an IT firm and is always on line, I can consult him via ICQ at any time; Ruslan is a native speaker of Digor dialect and he contributes about the places in western Ossetia, where the dialect is been spoken. He also promises a comprehensive article about Digor for the speakers of the main form.
All right
Are you Amikeco or is it one of the authors you mentionned ?
ru, os, eo, av, cv:Amikeco/m:Slavik IVANOV
Ahah, you do not make things easy :-)
If Amikeco is not the direct author of the article, does that mean he copied in wikipedia the article written by another ?
As for the articles coming from the South Ossetian teachers, I get them by e-mail and put them to WP (after wikifying; they come as a simple text file or a Word file).
Just a side comment. Perhaps you should mention in the comment box the name of the original author.
I would see two benefits First it is more honest toward the author, who is credite is work. Second, it is good image to show several people are contributing.
I was also wondering if you set a sort of "validation" of the articles written (a check of the quality of the article)?
Well, the validation is really simple by now:
- Check numbers as far as it's possible (first of all dates of birth
and death for biography articles); 2. Give the text to a native speaker from the North to test how understandable it is. Sometimes a phrase or two are not well composed and we change word order or do similare editing. I also have to pay attention to spelling: I have learnt the language by books and newspapers, so my spelling is very good (for me the Ossetic is first of all a written language), but for most Ossetians the language is first of all a spoken one -- and they often do spelling mistakes.
Nod. This seems a good process to me.
Can you tell me how many people are behind this experience?
1 active teacher (female under 30), two more interested but not writing yet. Other people involved are:
- volunteer co-ordinator in Tshkhinval (local journalist, ethic
Ossetian): he helps us interact with the writers via e-mail;
- volunteer co-ordinator at the Ossetic WP (me): putting the texts,
wikifying them, spell-checking, finding proof-readers, raising funds, writing articles to Ossetia-related sites like iriston.ru, iryston.com and ossetia.ru, etc.
- proof-readers (3 native speakers), sponsors (4 persons).
It is pretty impressive
Did they contacted teachers they knew otherwise, or did a sort of list out of a university or high school?
The journalist informed the locals about the "first encyclopedia in Ossetian"; some of them got interested. Neither computers, nor Internet are widely available in S.Ossetia -- so the interest could rest just the interest, but then the bright idea appeared... :) And we proposed the payed writing for the persons, who were, as we had already known, really interested. We didn't advertised the project much because of 2 reasons:
- we don't have much funds: maybe 5-20 articles a month are our limit;
- we wouldn't like to make other people think that writing for WP must
be payed; may they write for free if they can.
Nod. Both arguments are fair. I would like to know whether these teachers have themselves good internet access ? Presumably quite limited ?
I can perceive several ways to push the idea. Possibly organising a presentation in a school or university,
You see, the schools and universities of a higher quality group are at Vladikavkaz. There Ossetians no longer use the language for scientific or similar purposes: the Russian is prevailing. The task of the Project is not only to find chip writers, but also to find the last literate speakers of Ossetian and pay them for being used.
Among our further plans is looking for such people in the villages of North Ossetia, where exists at least one highly literate group: the teachers of the Ossetian language. But most of them are not at all good computer users... So we have many interesting challenges.
Perhaps a collaboration with computer offer ?
We are also planning to meet authorities of the North Ossetian State University in order to organize presentations of Wikipedia at several faculties. The future Ossetian philologists and journalists might get much experience from writing texts in WP. Still such a presentation does not seem possible in the nearest future, for it's not easy for me to go to Vladikavkaz now. Born there, I live in St.Petersburg at the Baltic Sea at the moment.
Sl.
Can you tell me more about the reasons why this does not seem possible in the nearest future ?
I think your experience sounds very professional. I would like that with Danny, we try to know more about it, and see how we could help. Some organisations we met were suggesting rather similar schemes, and it would be very interesting to outline the whole thing a little bit more.
Anthere
Dear Anthere,
As for the articles coming from the South Ossetian teachers, I get them by e-mail and put them to WP (after wikifying; they come as a simple text file or a Word file).
<<Just a side comment. Perhaps you should mention in the comment box the name of the original author. I would see two benefits First it is more honest toward the author, who is credite is work. Second, it is good image to show several people are contributing.>>
Sure, you are right! Thank you for the idea: I've been thinking about creating a Category or a Template for the purpose, but finally considered mixing content with authorship a not so good idea. But putting a name into the comment line is both easy and really useful. Or should I register a special account to post all the articles created in the project? That will make searching them very easy, etc. What do you think?
The journalist informed the locals about the "first encyclopedia in Ossetian"; some of them got interested. Neither computers, nor Internet are widely available in S.Ossetia -- so the interest could rest just the interest, but then the bright idea appeared... :)
<<Nod. Both arguments are fair. I would like to know whether these teachers have themselves good internet access ? Presumably quite limited ?>>
As for the only teacher, who is working already on her 3rd article now, she has some limited but free access to a Win98-computer at her school. There she types her text in MS Word format and brings it on a diskette to the South Ossetian journalist, who sends the text to me via e-mail. The same journalist also shows her the result of her work at the Wikipedia. Her first article (about the writer Nafi Jusoity) is now the elected one, its part is on the first page, and as far as I know the teacher is very proud about the fact.
I don't think it's a good idea to involve manuscripts: if a person can't use a computer at all, this person probably can't imagine electronic text (moreover hypertext) and its specialities. That's why we are most of all interested in younger teachers and students of Ossetian-related specialities (future journalists and teachers). Besides the texts for WP we achieve another purpose: raise the prestege of the language, showing that quality texts in it are needed and can be paid.
Among our further plans is looking for such people in the villages of North Ossetia, where exists at least one highly literate group: the teachers of the Ossetian language. But most of them are not at all good computer users... So we have many interesting challenges.
<<Perhaps a collaboration with computer offer ?>>
Can you tell more about your idea? I didn't get it.
We are also planning to meet authorities of the North Ossetian State University in order to organize presentations of Wikipedia at several faculties. The future Ossetian philologists and journalists might get much experience from writing texts in WP. Still such a presentation does not seem possible in the nearest future, for it's not easy for me to go to Vladikavkaz now. Born there, I live in St.Petersburg at the Baltic Sea at the moment.
<< Can you tell me more about the reasons why this does not seem possible in the nearest future ? I think your experience sounds very.. >>
Well, at least because the study year is over by the end of May. The best time for such presentations at the local universities is October-November or February-March, when the students are not frightened by the nearing exams and have time to participate in projects like WP.
Slavik/Amikeco
Hi...
Regarding manuscripts,
it's often a possibility that the person has seen a webpage but that writing the manuscript out in longhand is more convenient for them.
For example, a middle-aged Toareg man who lived in the city for a few years and used e-mail, but now doesn't have easy access to a computer because he has moved back with his village to take care of his ailing mother.
This man could probably find the time to make the long trek to a city and use an internet cafe to dash off an e-mail to me with the text of an article for the Toareg (or perhaps Berber) Wikipedia, but it would be very inconvenient and it would be much easier for him to use traditional Toareg writing implements to make the articles out in manuscript form while in the village (perhaps even with input from other villagers!), and then use the postal system to mail it ("snail-mail") to a computer science professor in Algiers, who would then e-mail it to me and I would post it.
This would obviously be much easier for the Touareg man than to actually make the long trek from Southeastern Algeria to the capital, Algiers, just to visit the journalist and make use of a computer.
Just because you don't have access to a computer doesn't mean you never HAVE had access. And you might have access to a computer, but it might be inconvenient compared to writing on paper and using conventional post.
Mark
On 28/05/05, V. Ivanov amikeco@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Anthere,
As for the articles coming from the South Ossetian teachers, I get them by e-mail and put them to WP (after wikifying; they come as a simple text file or a Word file).
<<Just a side comment. Perhaps you should mention in the comment box the name of the original author. I would see two benefits First it is more honest toward the author, who is credite is work. Second, it is good image to show several people are contributing.>>
Sure, you are right! Thank you for the idea: I've been thinking about creating a Category or a Template for the purpose, but finally considered mixing content with authorship a not so good idea. But putting a name into the comment line is both easy and really useful. Or should I register a special account to post all the articles created in the project? That will make searching them very easy, etc. What do you think?
The journalist informed the locals about the "first encyclopedia in Ossetian"; some of them got interested. Neither computers, nor Internet are widely available in S.Ossetia -- so the interest could rest just the interest, but then the bright idea appeared... :)
<<Nod. Both arguments are fair. I would like to know whether these teachers have themselves good internet access ? Presumably quite limited ?>>
As for the only teacher, who is working already on her 3rd article now, she has some limited but free access to a Win98-computer at her school. There she types her text in MS Word format and brings it on a diskette to the South Ossetian journalist, who sends the text to me via e-mail. The same journalist also shows her the result of her work at the Wikipedia. Her first article (about the writer Nafi Jusoity) is now the elected one, its part is on the first page, and as far as I know the teacher is very proud about the fact.
I don't think it's a good idea to involve manuscripts: if a person can't use a computer at all, this person probably can't imagine electronic text (moreover hypertext) and its specialities. That's why we are most of all interested in younger teachers and students of Ossetian-related specialities (future journalists and teachers). Besides the texts for WP we achieve another purpose: raise the prestege of the language, showing that quality texts in it are needed and can be paid.
Among our further plans is looking for such people in the villages of North Ossetia, where exists at least one highly literate group: the teachers of the Ossetian language. But most of them are not at all good computer users... So we have many interesting challenges.
<<Perhaps a collaboration with computer offer ?>>
Can you tell more about your idea? I didn't get it.
We are also planning to meet authorities of the North Ossetian State University in order to organize presentations of Wikipedia at several faculties. The future Ossetian philologists and journalists might get much experience from writing texts in WP. Still such a presentation does not seem possible in the nearest future, for it's not easy for me to go to Vladikavkaz now. Born there, I live in St.Petersburg at the Baltic Sea at the moment.
<< Can you tell me more about the reasons why this does not seem possible in the nearest future ? I think your experience sounds very.. >>
Well, at least because the study year is over by the end of May. The best time for such presentations at the local universities is October-November or February-March, when the students are not frightened by the nearing exams and have time to participate in projects like WP.
Slavik/Amikeco
Esperu cxiam! _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
You are correct Mark
But the difference might be that what you talk about is hypothetical, while the os gets articles this way. What you suggest is great, but we should focus to what is practical for now.
Ant
Mark Williamson a écrit:
Hi...
Regarding manuscripts,
it's often a possibility that the person has seen a webpage but that writing the manuscript out in longhand is more convenient for them.
For example, a middle-aged Toareg man who lived in the city for a few years and used e-mail, but now doesn't have easy access to a computer because he has moved back with his village to take care of his ailing mother.
This man could probably find the time to make the long trek to a city and use an internet cafe to dash off an e-mail to me with the text of an article for the Toareg (or perhaps Berber) Wikipedia, but it would be very inconvenient and it would be much easier for him to use traditional Toareg writing implements to make the articles out in manuscript form while in the village (perhaps even with input from other villagers!), and then use the postal system to mail it ("snail-mail") to a computer science professor in Algiers, who would then e-mail it to me and I would post it.
This would obviously be much easier for the Touareg man than to actually make the long trek from Southeastern Algeria to the capital, Algiers, just to visit the journalist and make use of a computer.
Just because you don't have access to a computer doesn't mean you never HAVE had access. And you might have access to a computer, but it might be inconvenient compared to writing on paper and using conventional post.
Mark
On 28/05/05, V. Ivanov amikeco@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Anthere,
As for the articles coming from the South Ossetian teachers, I get them by e-mail and put them to WP (after wikifying; they come as a simple text file or a Word file).
<<Just a side comment. Perhaps you should mention in the comment box the name of the original author. I would see two benefits First it is more honest toward the author, who is credite is work. Second, it is good image to show several people are contributing.>>
Sure, you are right! Thank you for the idea: I've been thinking about creating a Category or a Template for the purpose, but finally considered mixing content with authorship a not so good idea. But putting a name into the comment line is both easy and really useful. Or should I register a special account to post all the articles created in the project? That will make searching them very easy, etc. What do you think?
The journalist informed the locals about the "first encyclopedia in Ossetian"; some of them got interested. Neither computers, nor Internet are widely available in S.Ossetia -- so the interest could rest just the interest, but then the bright idea appeared... :)
<<Nod. Both arguments are fair. I would like to know whether these teachers have themselves good internet access ? Presumably quite limited ?>>
As for the only teacher, who is working already on her 3rd article now, she has some limited but free access to a Win98-computer at her school. There she types her text in MS Word format and brings it on a diskette to the South Ossetian journalist, who sends the text to me via e-mail. The same journalist also shows her the result of her work at the Wikipedia. Her first article (about the writer Nafi Jusoity) is now the elected one, its part is on the first page, and as far as I know the teacher is very proud about the fact.
I don't think it's a good idea to involve manuscripts: if a person can't use a computer at all, this person probably can't imagine electronic text (moreover hypertext) and its specialities. That's why we are most of all interested in younger teachers and students of Ossetian-related specialities (future journalists and teachers). Besides the texts for WP we achieve another purpose: raise the prestege of the language, showing that quality texts in it are needed and can be paid.
Among our further plans is looking for such people in the villages of North Ossetia, where exists at least one highly literate group: the teachers of the Ossetian language. But most of them are not at all good computer users... So we have many interesting challenges.
<<Perhaps a collaboration with computer offer ?>>
Can you tell more about your idea? I didn't get it.
We are also planning to meet authorities of the North Ossetian State University in order to organize presentations of Wikipedia at several faculties. The future Ossetian philologists and journalists might get much experience from writing texts in WP. Still such a presentation does not seem possible in the nearest future, for it's not easy for me to go to Vladikavkaz now. Born there, I live in St.Petersburg at the Baltic Sea at the moment.
<< Can you tell me more about the reasons why this does not seem possible in the nearest future ? I think your experience sounds very.. >>
Well, at least because the study year is over by the end of May. The best time for such presentations at the local universities is October-November or February-March, when the students are not frightened by the nearing exams and have time to participate in projects like WP.
Slavik/Amikeco
Esperu cxiam! _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Hi,
First, thanks to HaafLimbo (his alias on the Limburgish Wikipedia) who pointed me to this mailinglist :)
it's often a possibility that the person has seen a webpage but that writing the manuscript out in longhand is more convenient for them.
That can even be more convenient inside cities where there is internet, like Bamako. Many people have never touched a computer. In fact, last week I proposed an older Fulaar man, who is also head of a Fulaar cultural association, to simply bring me written articles.
Just because you don't have access to a computer doesn't mean you never HAVE had access. And you might have access to a computer, but it might be inconvenient compared to writing on paper and using conventional post.
Not to forget the costs of using the computer (let alone the internet).
Or should I register a special account to post all the articles created in the project? That will make searching them very easy, etc. What do you think?
Yesterday, when I added 5 articles to the Bambara Wikipedia I simply put the name of the author in the comment box.
Among our further plans is looking for such people in the villages of North Ossetia, where exists at least one highly literate group: the teachers of the Ossetian language. But most of them are not at all good computer users... So we have many interesting challenges.
<<Perhaps a collaboration with computer offer ?>>
Can you tell more about your idea? I didn't get it.
Reading this thread... An idea that pops up right now... Communities could be provided with one or more computers, under the condition they regularly write new Wikipedia articles. An internet connection is probably too expensive at such places. This way people can be provided with lots of valuable information in languages some people can understand while at the same time working on information in their native language.
Make computer usage free for people who contribute to Wikimedia projects (or localization, documentation, development of free software, free information projects), and people who don't contribute can choose to pay a small sum that pays the electricity, and possibly the internet connection...
I've been quite a while in Bamako now. And I've tried to get people interested. First with 200 CFA per article (0.3 EUR), but that didn't really work. I've tried with university students, but nothing really happened. Recently a new Geek arrived however, who has equipped a little community school/center with a bunch of computers, in one of the poorer areas of Bamako. And they are really interested. The university students and the more "well off" people couldn't be bothered with the 500 CFA. Poorer people however, don't have the money to use a cybercafe. 500 CFA per hour is considered cheap here, for using the internet, but is also unaffordable for at least 90% of the population.
Yesterday, at the center, I gave out the first 500 CFA pieces, and people are starting to get the idea.
I also installed a DICT version of Wikipedia on the computer, so they can access all the text from the French Wikipedia and translate that.
bye, Kasper
Hi Kasper,
I brought up the issue of NKo before as you will remember.
However unfortunately I have realised that it is an issue bigger than simply conversion between scripts.
NKo is used to write a sort of "unified Mande" rather than individual varieties, so it wouldn't work well for the Bambara Wikipedia.
Although mostly only old people use it in the area you are in, in surrounding nations it is used by most of the Mande population, and remember that it is an amazing miracle of indigenous literacy in Africa (it spread from person to person and generation to generation, across thousands of kilometres, without the framework of a formal education system).
Especially in Guinea it is the primary means for writing Mande languages, and there is already a huge body of existing technical literature on diverse topics written in it.
Given the nature of NKo literature distribution, I think it's possible some of the works in the language could be used directly on Wikipedia
Mark
On 29/05/05, Guaka guaka@no-log.org wrote:
Hi,
First, thanks to HaafLimbo (his alias on the Limburgish Wikipedia) who pointed me to this mailinglist :)
it's often a possibility that the person has seen a webpage but that writing the manuscript out in longhand is more convenient for them.
That can even be more convenient inside cities where there is internet, like Bamako. Many people have never touched a computer. In fact, last week I proposed an older Fulaar man, who is also head of a Fulaar cultural association, to simply bring me written articles.
Just because you don't have access to a computer doesn't mean you never HAVE had access. And you might have access to a computer, but it might be inconvenient compared to writing on paper and using conventional post.
Not to forget the costs of using the computer (let alone the internet).
Or should I register a special account to post all the articles created in the project? That will make searching them very easy, etc. What do you think?
Yesterday, when I added 5 articles to the Bambara Wikipedia I simply put the name of the author in the comment box.
Among our further plans is looking for such people in the villages of North Ossetia, where exists at least one highly literate group: the teachers of the Ossetian language. But most of them are not at all good computer users... So we have many interesting challenges.
<<Perhaps a collaboration with computer offer ?>>
Can you tell more about your idea? I didn't get it.
Reading this thread... An idea that pops up right now... Communities could be provided with one or more computers, under the condition they regularly write new Wikipedia articles. An internet connection is probably too expensive at such places. This way people can be provided with lots of valuable information in languages some people can understand while at the same time working on information in their native language.
Make computer usage free for people who contribute to Wikimedia projects (or localization, documentation, development of free software, free information projects), and people who don't contribute can choose to pay a small sum that pays the electricity, and possibly the internet connection...
I've been quite a while in Bamako now. And I've tried to get people interested. First with 200 CFA per article (0.3 EUR), but that didn't really work. I've tried with university students, but nothing really happened. Recently a new Geek arrived however, who has equipped a little community school/center with a bunch of computers, in one of the poorer areas of Bamako. And they are really interested. The university students and the more "well off" people couldn't be bothered with the 500 CFA. Poorer people however, don't have the money to use a cybercafe. 500 CFA per hour is considered cheap here, for using the internet, but is also unaffordable for at least 90% of the population.
Yesterday, at the center, I gave out the first 500 CFA pieces, and people are starting to get the idea.
I also installed a DICT version of Wikipedia on the computer, so they can access all the text from the French Wikipedia and translate that.
bye, Kasper
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
2005/5/29, Guaka guaka@no-log.org:
Reading this thread... An idea that pops up right now... Communities could be provided with one or more computers, under the condition they regularly write new Wikipedia articles. An internet connection is probably too expensive at such places. This way people can be provided with lots of valuable information in languages some people can understand while at the same time working on information in their native language. Make computer usage free for people who contribute to Wikimedia projects (or localization, documentation, development of free software, free information projects), and people who don't contribute can choose to pay a small sum that pays the electricity, and possibly the internet connection...
Buying a computer and transferring it to Tskhinval may cost at least 100 USD. We cannot afford it now, as we have 1000 RUR (about 37 USD) in our fund. Maybe we'd better run the project as it already runs now: but nothing really prohibits us to dream of a couple of computers for the editors in South Ossetia.
Sl. / Amikeco
Guaka wrote:
Reading this thread... An idea that pops up right now... Communities
could be provided with one or more computers, under the condition they regularly write new Wikipedia articles. An internet connection is probably too expensive at such places. This way people can be provided with lots of valuable information in languages some people can understand while at the same time working on information in their native language.
Make computer usage free for people who contribute to Wikimedia projects (or localization, documentation, development of free software, free information projects), and people who don't contribute can choose to pay a small sum that pays the electricity, and possibly the internet connection...
I've been quite a while in Bamako now. And I've tried to get people interested. First with 200 CFA per article (0.3 EUR), but that didn't really work. I've tried with university students, but nothing really happened. Recently a new Geek arrived however, who has equipped a little community school/center with a bunch of computers, in one of the poorer areas of Bamako. And they are really interested. The university students and the more "well off" people couldn't be bothered with the 500 CFA. Poorer people however, don't have the money to use a cybercafe. 500 CFA per hour is considered cheap here, for using the internet, but is also unaffordable for at least 90% of the population.
Yesterday, at the center, I gave out the first 500 CFA pieces, and people are starting to get the idea.
I also installed a DICT version of Wikipedia on the computer, so they can access all the text from the French Wikipedia and translate that.
This kind of innovation is important. The fact that you outline unsuccessful strategies, and what was done to find alternative techniques is highly instructive. How old were the computers that were put in the community school? How stable is electrical power in Bamako?
Ec
This kind of innovation is important. The fact that you outline unsuccessful strategies, and what was done to find alternative techniques is highly instructive. How old were the computers that were put in the community school? How stable is electrical power in Bamako?
I think it's a bunch of P1s and P2s, with the horsepower coming from a central server, which is a >1 GHz Athlon or something. The server is running Skolelinux. Bamako's electricity is pretty okay. Only when there's heavy rain it can falls out for longer periods. Short ruptures do occur, but are not very common.
k'an be!
V. Ivanov a écrit:
Dear Anthere,
As for the articles coming from the South Ossetian teachers, I get them by e-mail and put them to WP (after wikifying; they come as a simple text file or a Word file).
<<Just a side comment. Perhaps you should mention in the comment box the name of the original author. I would see two benefits First it is more honest toward the author, who is credite is work. Second, it is good image to show several people are contributing.>>
Sure, you are right! Thank you for the idea: I've been thinking about creating a Category or a Template for the purpose, but finally considered mixing content with authorship a not so good idea. But putting a name into the comment line is both easy and really useful. Or should I register a special account to post all the articles created in the project? That will make searching them very easy, etc. What do you think?
NOD This is a very good idea. Use a special account for all those texte. And mention the name of all authors (or minimal references if they do not want to be public, or a pseudonyme) on the user page, to indicate it is somehow a collaborative account, with one technical editor (you).
This way, we can both acknowledge their work (they might later list the collection of articles each of them wrote); and track the articles written through the project.
The journalist informed the locals about the "first encyclopedia in Ossetian"; some of them got interested. Neither computers, nor Internet are widely available in S.Ossetia -- so the interest could rest just the interest, but then the bright idea appeared... :)
<<Nod. Both arguments are fair. I would like to know whether these teachers have themselves good internet access ? Presumably quite limited ?>>
As for the only teacher, who is working already on her 3rd article now, she has some limited but free access to a Win98-computer at her school. There she types her text in MS Word format and brings it on a diskette to the South Ossetian journalist, who sends the text to me via e-mail. The same journalist also shows her the result of her work at the Wikipedia. Her first article (about the writer Nafi Jusoity) is now the elected one, its part is on the first page, and as far as I know the teacher is very proud about the fact.
Nod. Important point. Writters on small wikis not only will gain a bit financially, but feel proud of their article being in the light.
When I started on the french pedia (basically in os state then), I mostly wrote along two lines : I made several of the portal pages, but not with only empty links, but with a comprehensive text covering the portal issue. And second, I picked up quite specialized topics not too widely covered in google... so I knew google would like them.
Between the portal pages and the specialized pages, readers could see the variety of what could be written, as well as think "waou, there is some stuff here".
I don't think it's a good idea to involve manuscripts: if a person can't use a computer at all, this person probably can't imagine electronic text (moreover hypertext) and its specialities. That's why we are most of all interested in younger teachers and students of Ossetian-related specialities (future journalists and teachers). Besides the texts for WP we achieve another purpose: raise the prestege of the language, showing that quality texts in it are needed and can be paid.
Agreed
Among our further plans is looking for such people in the villages of North Ossetia, where exists at least one highly literate group: the teachers of the Ossetian language. But most of them are not at all good computer users... So we have many interesting challenges.
<<Perhaps a collaboration with computer offer ?>>
Can you tell more about your idea? I didn't get it.
If you look for editors in area where there is little computer equipment, perhaps a collaboration with an organisation doing computer collection, reinstall and shipping in places where computers are missing could help.
Hmmmm, when in a university, there is only one computer for 50 students, it is not surprising students are not very good computer users. Sometimes, there is not even one computer per teacher either.
We are also planning to meet authorities of the North Ossetian State University in order to organize presentations of Wikipedia at several faculties. The future Ossetian philologists and journalists might get much experience from writing texts in WP. Still such a presentation does not seem possible in the nearest future, for it's not easy for me to go to Vladikavkaz now. Born there, I live in St.Petersburg at the Baltic Sea at the moment.
<< Can you tell me more about the reasons why this does not seem possible in the nearest future ? I think your experience sounds very.. >>
Well, at least because the study year is over by the end of May. The best time for such presentations at the local universities is October-November or February-March, when the students are not frightened by the nearing exams and have time to participate in projects like WP.
Slavik/Amikeco
Definitly a good argument :-)
/me currently preparing the school fair...
V. Ivanov wrote:
The idea is not absolutely new. We use the absolutely similar approach at the Ossetic Wikipedia (we call it "Project <<Tskhinval Teachers>>". The essence of the project is paying teachers from South Ossetia a 2,5-USD equivalent for every article (up from 2500 characters).
Aw man! I would gladly pay that sum to anyone who can write articles in some of my favourite exotic languages (Zulu, Xhosa, Navajo, Nahuatl, Hmong -- all of these are million-speaker languages).
Maybe we should make this concept better known globally. Maybe we should organise a list of Wikipedians who are prepared to give money to poor people in return for an article in a language that has an inactive Wikipedia. The Wikipedians would be able to specify any conditions, but once their conditions are fulfilled, they should be legally obliged to pay out the money they offered.
Of course, for that to work, there needs to be a way of getting the message (and later, the money) to the people. Maybe someone has a few ideas?
http://os.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%B6%D1%83%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B9%D1%82%D1%8... http://os.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%B7%D1%83%D1%86%D1%86%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8...
Maybe someone should add interwiki links to these. :-)
2005/5/28, Timwi timwi@gmx.net:
Maybe we should make this concept better known globally. Maybe we should organise a list of Wikipedians who are prepared to give money to poor people in return for an article in a language that has an inactive Wikipedia. The Wikipedians would be able to specify any conditions,
Say, offer a preferable topic or even a certain article (or article set).
Of course, for that to work, there needs to be a way of getting the message (and later, the money) to the people. Maybe someone has a few ideas?
The very large problem here is the validation. Someone must check: - if the article is really in the language in question. :) - if the article is about what its title is. - if the style is sufficiently encyclopedical. - if the money go to the author (and not fully or partly to the "mediator"). The easiest way here is maybe launching such projects only when an active Wikipedian(or a few of them) in the WP already exists (e. g. as in the [[:os:]] and [[:cv:]] now).
------------------ I can't imagine the situation about the languages you've listed, but for many languages of Russia there exist a very interesting literacy tradition of the years 1920-1940, when the local languages flowered. That means that a written style exists, though it's mostly forgotten, and that even useful texts (manuals etc.) exist, some of which can be reused in the WP. We are now trying to find the school textbooks: we already have one, a book on Astronomy of 1949. It's in Moscow now and probably soon someone will scan it and put pieces into WP.
Mind that for such sources the copyright is no longer in effect (books published in the USSR before 1971 are no longer copyright-defended if the server is in the US). That means that for the languages of Russia we could start another project along with the "Paid-for-Articles" -- a project of scanning older sources and creative reusing them in WP articles, thus preserving the once very active written traditions.
Sl./Amikeco
V. Ivanov wrote:
2005/5/28, Timwi timwi@gmx.net:
Maybe we should make this concept better known globally. Maybe we should organise a list of Wikipedians who are prepared to give money to poor people in return for an article in a language that has an inactive Wikipedia. The Wikipedians would be able to specify any conditions,
Say, offer a preferable topic or even a certain article (or article set).
I would be wary of any scheme to pay people for articles. We have prided ourselves on an all volunteer production in all languages.
The one thing that is not mentioned in the discussion is who would fund this proposal. Is there a rich Ossetian benefactor willing to pay for this idea? There are many other languages that could benefit from this approach, but it should not be the responsibility of the general community to pay for such things in other languages either.
Of course, for that to work, there needs to be a way of getting the message (and later, the money) to the people. Maybe someone has a few ideas?
The very large problem here is the validation. Someone must check:
- if the article is really in the language in question. :)
- if the article is about what its title is.
- if the style is sufficiently encyclopedical.
- if the money go to the author (and not fully or partly to the "mediator").
The easiest way here is maybe launching such projects only when an active Wikipedian(or a few of them) in the WP already exists (e. g. as in the [[:os:]] and [[:cv:]] now).
Auditing would be problematic.
Mind that for such sources the copyright is no longer in effect (books published in the USSR before 1971 are no longer copyright-defended if the server is in the US). That means that for the languages of Russia we could start another project along with the "Paid-for-Articles" -- a project of scanning older sources and creative reusing them in WP articles, thus preserving the once very active written traditions.
Whose law are you getting this from? Russia has recently adopted the life + 70 rule, and though there is some confusion about how the transition from life + 50 would function none of that would support your speculation about the law. A statement by the government to the effect that all works of a certain age would not be "copyright-defended" does not diminish the copyright. The individual author or his descendants would still have the right to sue for copyright infringement. As much as I believe that we should take a more aggressive stand in copyright issues, I think that there is more to that than just a what-can-we-get-away-with attitude.
Ec
Mind that for such sources the copyright is no longer in effect (books published in the USSR before 1971 are no longer copyright-defended if the server is in the US).
Whose law are you getting this from? Russia has recently adopted the life + 70 rule, and though there is some confusion about how the transition from life + 50 would function none of that would support your speculation about the law.
Yes, but the law is not retrospective. So if work already was in public domain then it's remain in public domain. (example until 1963 in USSR photo works was protected only 3 year). I think we need [[Copyright in Soviet Union]] article. At present I can refer to acts/articles/legal authorities only in Russian language (example http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_talk:%D0%98%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%87%D0%...)
Ray Saintonge wrote:
I would be wary of any scheme to pay people for articles. We have prided ourselves on an all volunteer production in all languages.
The first major contributors to Wikipedia were paid (or at least Larry Sanger was). I don't see the problem with this. The main incentive is not just to have certain articles written for money, but actually to start the Wikipedia itself, i.e. to hope that a community would form.
The one thing that is not mentioned in the discussion is who would fund this proposal.
Fund what? My proposal suggests that Wikipedians offer the money. Anyone can offer as much as they like for as many articles as they like.
Timwi
Ray Saintonge a écrit:
V. Ivanov wrote:
2005/5/28, Timwi timwi@gmx.net:
Maybe we should make this concept better known globally. Maybe we should organise a list of Wikipedians who are prepared to give money to poor people in return for an article in a language that has an inactive Wikipedia. The Wikipedians would be able to specify any conditions,
Say, offer a preferable topic or even a certain article (or article
set).
I would be wary of any scheme to pay people for articles. We have prided ourselves on an all volunteer production in all languages.
The one thing that is not mentioned in the discussion is who would fund this proposal. Is there a rich Ossetian benefactor willing to pay for this idea? There are many other languages that could benefit from this approach, but it should not be the responsibility of the general community to pay for such things in other languages either.
Hi Ec
This is not a proposal, it already exist. It is currently funded by individuals, who may or may not be contributors. I just do not know.
We do not have to say anything about this, it exists, it is independant and anyone should be free to find a way to help promote one language. I think the best *we* can do as *editors*, is to help them in their organisation, and also help them transform these teachers in more permanent editors in the long term (feeling proud of a good article featured on home page is one of these ways... there are others...). Typical limitation could be "we offer you money for a good article, but for no more than xx articles".
But you raise an important issue, which is whether *we* as an *organisation* should financially help similar ideas (ie, paying editors). Of course, this requires specific requirements (such as control, validation of final quality, starting language with few editors expected, local organisers etc...), but on the concept, should we or should we not ?
You are perfectly allright : till now, editors have always been volunteers. Which could be the consequences that start paying some, even if it is on a small and little know language ?
As a reminder, only 3 people have till now financially directly making benefits. Larry initially, now Brion and Chad Perrin. Another person should soon be welcome as well to help with the paperwork. The three last people concerned, paid by or soon to be paid by the Foundation, have received the approval from Jimbo, Angela and myself... and that the three are americans exclusively. Other benefits made in terms of "personal income" were non direct (such as development contracts with other organisations).
Given that the goal of the Foundation is "to encouraging the growth, development and distribution of free, multilingual content, and to providing the full content of these wiki-based projects to the public free of charge", I would say that supporting such projects (ie, paying editors in certain specific conditions) is within our area of action. What I do not know is whether it would be acceptable to do it with donation money, or if grants should be seek (sought ?) to support such an involvement. I would really welcome opinions on this. In the past year, I have seen little criticizing (as opposed to supporting) comments related to the way the Foundation money should be spent, but for comments saying (a year ago) that developers should get paid in priorities before Angie and my costs be reimbursed, or comments saying (early 2005) that with all the money we got, the website should be more accessible.
So, I am not sure whether it would be globally acceptable, borderline but acceptable, or frankly unacceptable to the editors or not.
Perhaps a beginning of an answer would be that current developers do not seem overall to be mad with the idea of Chad and Brion be paid, while they are not. It may be because they consider Brion has been working a lot for the project and deserve to be partially paid by the Foundation, it may be because they consider that Chad work is required and can not be done any more by Jimbo. In short, it is acceptable because one is known and loved, and acceptable because the other is seen as doing a mandatory job. I am not sure, not being in the developer team. I suppose participation to such project will be possibly acceptable to editors if they can see where the benefits stands. Just thoughts. Waiting for all of yours.
Ant
But you raise an important issue, which is whether *we* as an *organisation* should financially help similar ideas (ie, paying editors). Of course, this requires specific requirements (such as control, validation of final quality, starting language with few editors expected, local organisers etc...), but on the concept, should we or should we not ?
I guess *we* is the Wikimedia Foundation. I don't think Wikimedia should fund projects that pay editors. There are plenty of NGO's and there is plenty of money going into development projects for developing countries. Lots of that money is spent on expensive plane flights and big salaries to send white people to poor countries. So what we (as in the broader Wikipedia community) can do is try to get some of that money to develop projects we think can make a difference, by directly paying many people in poor countries (as opposed to several politicians and big men gaining lots of bribes).
You are perfectly allright : till now, editors have always been volunteers. Which could be the consequences that start paying some, even if it is on a small and little know language ?
Bambara is spoken by more than 10 million people and if you include Dioula and other Mande languages we're probably talking about 30 million people who are able to understand it (if it's spoken out, hence the importance of creating .oggs once there is substantial material).
That it is little known is basically due to the fact that it is spoken by poor people, and hardly ever read or written.
Given that the goal of the Foundation is "to encouraging the growth, development and distribution of free, multilingual content, and to providing the full content of these wiki-based projects to the public free of charge", I would say that supporting such projects (ie, paying editors in certain specific conditions) is within our area of action. What I do not know is whether it would be acceptable to do it with donation money, or if grants should be seek (sought ?) to support such an involvement. I would really welcome opinions on this. In the past year, I have seen little criticizing (as opposed to supporting) comments related to the way the Foundation money should be spent, but for comments saying (a year ago) that developers should get paid in priorities before Angie and my costs be reimbursed, or comments saying (early 2005) that with all the money we got, the website should be more accessible.
If Wikimedia Foundation starts a fund raising for specifically this goal, that would be fine. But people who donated often donated the money for having more reliable access. They _could_ be disappointed to see that the money is being used to pay people to write articles. But again, we (community) can find the money elsewhere - and Wikimedia can endorse such projects.
Perhaps a beginning of an answer would be that current developers do not seem overall to be mad with the idea of Chad and Brion be paid, while they are not. It may be because they consider Brion has been working a lot for the project and deserve to be partially paid by the Foundation, it may be because they consider that Chad work is required and can not be done any more by Jimbo. In short, it is acceptable because one is known and loved, and acceptable because the other is seen as doing a mandatory job. I am not sure, not being in the developer team. I suppose participation to such project will be possibly acceptable to editors if they can see where the benefits stands. Just thoughts. Waiting for all of yours.
There is a huge difference between paying developers to improve the access to Wikipedia and to paying contributors. Wikimedia should make sure Wikimedia (and especially its servers) keeps online.
Guaka!
Guaka wrote:
But you raise an important issue, which is whether *we* as an *organisation* should financially help similar ideas (ie, paying editors). Of course, this requires specific requirements (such as control, validation of final quality, starting language with few editors expected, local organisers etc...), but on the concept, should we or should we not ?
I guess *we* is the Wikimedia Foundation. I don't think Wikimedia should fund projects that pay editors. There are plenty of NGO's and there is plenty of money going into development projects for developing countries. Lots of that money is spent on expensive plane flights and big salaries to send white people to poor countries. So what we (as in the broader Wikipedia community) can do is try to get some of that money to develop projects we think can make a difference, by directly paying many people in poor countries (as opposed to several politicians and big men gaining lots of bribes).
If I wanted to give to such a place delivery could be a big problem. If you send cash or if you send the computers there will always be too many open hands between you and the recipient. If you use mainstream NGOs money also gets wasted sending the cameraman to take pictures of the NGO agent doing his good deeds. In the early stages you need someone there whom you can trust to distribute the funds properly.
Ec
If I wanted to give to such a place delivery could be a big problem. If you send cash or if you send the computers there will always be too many open hands between you and the recipient. If you use mainstream NGOs money also gets wasted sending the cameraman to take pictures of the NGO agent doing his good deeds. In the early stages you need someone there whom you can trust to distribute the funds properly.
First of all, 30% or so is already "wasted" on administration in developed countries. Then there's often conditions on the use of the money. For instance, USAID has the policy that its money should be spent on American products, where possible. That often means more expensive products. Then there's often the urge to finish the budget. If "this year's budget" isn't finished, next year's budget will be less. Often money is wasted like that. Then there's often incompetence, stupidity and/or the urge to use the highest-tech available. It's much cooler - for the NGO and for the local mayor - to show off a big shiny satellite dish (compared to a modem +telephone line). even if the satellite connection will cost the village 300 US$ every month. 300 dollars that will be paid to an American or European company, and that will have to be earned by the village population.
These days 'everyone' has a digital camera, so cameramen aren't really needed anymore, unless you're big time stuff like UNESCO...
"In Cambodia, over half of the international aide goes to 740 'international consultants' working in the country. In 2002 those 740 people were paid just as much as all the 160.000 people working in the Cambodian public sector." http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=299724 (in French)
Guaka wrote:
First of all, 30% or so is already "wasted" on administration in developed countries. Then there's often conditions on the use of the money. For instance, USAID has the policy that its money should be spent on American products, where possible. That often means more expensive products. Then there's often the urge to finish the budget. If "this year's budget" isn't finished, next year's budget will be less. Often money is wasted like that. Then there's often incompetence, stupidity and/or the urge to use the highest-tech available. It's much cooler - for the NGO and for the local mayor - to show off a big shiny satellite dish (compared to a modem +telephone line). even if the satellite connection will cost the village 300 US$ every month. 300 dollars that will be paid to an American or European company, and that will have to be earned by the village population.
These days 'everyone' has a digital camera, so cameramen aren't really needed anymore, unless you're big time stuff like UNESCO...
"In Cambodia, over half of the international aide goes to 740 'international consultants' working in the country. In 2002 those 740 people were paid just as much as all the 160.000 people working in the Cambodian public sector." http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=299724 (in French)
I hereby give my solemn promise to the community, that Wikimedia will never become an institution which wastes more money on photo shoots and consultants and looking good than in trying actually do something useful. This is really an outrageous situation when it happens, and I refuse to let us ever play that way. We're about people, people who care, people who can make a change. Let's never forget it.
--Jimbo
2005/5/29, Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com:
The one thing that is not mentioned in the discussion is who would fund this proposal. Is there a rich Ossetian benefactor willing to pay for this idea? There are many other languages that could benefit from this approach, but it should not be the responsibility of the general community to pay for such things in other languages either.
This is not a proposal, it already exist. It is currently funded by individuals, who may or may not be contributors. I just do not know.
It seemed to me, I've mentioned the benefactors in my previous messages: there are *four individuals* both in Moscow and Vladikavkaz who have already paid 1000 RUR (~20 articles) for the project and are going to help it from time to time so that we will be able to pay at least 100 quality articles a year.
Sure, if the idea of Anthere will be realized, we will be able to use the money of foreign benefactors as well: also for popularizing the encyclopedia at the universities. I believe, people would pay articles in a smaller language more willingly, if the see the project in work and having real results. But also without external help it runs already, using the fact that the Ossetian speakers are rather diversified by income: some live in poorer South, some in more successful North.
Anyhow, I agree with Ray that Wikimedia Foundation should not fund projucts like that -- it is not a smaller languages supporting organization after all.
Sl. / Amikeco
Hi,
Do you have any plans for any other Russian minority languages?
Obviously the Tatar Wikipedia doesn't exactly need such a boost, but the Chuvash Wikipedia could use it (60-something articles right now I think), as could the Chechen, Abkhaz, etc.
Mark
On 29/05/05, V. Ivanov amikeco@gmail.com wrote:
2005/5/29, Guaka guaka@no-log.org:
Reading this thread... An idea that pops up right now... Communities could be provided with one or more computers, under the condition they regularly write new Wikipedia articles. An internet connection is probably too expensive at such places. This way people can be provided with lots of valuable information in languages some people can understand while at the same time working on information in their native language. Make computer usage free for people who contribute to Wikimedia projects (or localization, documentation, development of free software, free information projects), and people who don't contribute can choose to pay a small sum that pays the electricity, and possibly the internet connection...
Buying a computer and transferring it to Tskhinval may cost at least 100 USD. We cannot afford it now, as we have 1000 RUR (about 37 USD) in our fund. Maybe we'd better run the project as it already runs now: but nothing really prohibits us to dream of a couple of computers for the editors in South Ossetia.
Sl. / Amikeco
-- Esperu cxiam! _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
2005/5/30, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com:
Do you have any plans for any other Russian minority languages? Obviously the Tatar Wikipedia doesn't exactly need such a boost, but the Chuvash Wikipedia could use it (60-something articles right now I think), as could the Chechen, Abkhaz, etc.
I've been trying to change things about the Komi WP (kv), sending letters to the local university, etc. The activity had now respond, though. :)
I've also advertised the Caucasian wikipedias (ab, av, az, ce, hy, ka, os) at several Caucasian fora, but the effect was not that great, accept more often changes at ab and some stupid vandalism at av.
Surely, the whole thing is worth trying on.
Sl. / Amikeco
I've been trying to change things about the Komi WP (kv), sending letters to the local university, etc. The activity had now respond, though. :)
From my experience with both the Limburgish and the Bambara Wikipedia
nearly all existing institutes won't really bother as long as there's not a basic amount of articles.
I _did_ attend to a UNESCO multilingualism conference, and 3 different speakers mentioned the Bambara Wikipedia, on the second day only. However, none of these people added something themselves, or incited others to add something. And unfortunately I was feeling too sick to partake in serious active networking.
bye!
Guaka scripsit:
From my experience with both the Limburgish and the Bambara Wikipedia
nearly all existing institutes won't really bother as long as there's not a basic amount of articles.
Well, in the case of the Limburgic wikipedia: the institutions were simply ignorant of the project. Recently we started contacting some of them, receiving positive reactions and some beginning edits, even though they hadn't yet informed their members.
Wouter
_________________________________________________________________ Nieuw: Beeld en geluid met MSN Messenger 7.0 http://messenger.msn.nl/
...
But there is already a basic amount of articles.
I had already informed the institutions and it seems my e-mails were ignored. (this is back when there were 0 articles)
Mark
On 31/05/05, Wouter Steenbeek musiqolog@hotmail.com wrote:
Guaka scripsit:
From my experience with both the Limburgish and the Bambara Wikipedia
nearly all existing institutes won't really bother as long as there's not a basic amount of articles.
Well, in the case of the Limburgic wikipedia: the institutions were simply ignorant of the project. Recently we started contacting some of them, receiving positive reactions and some beginning edits, even though they hadn't yet informed their members.
Wouter
Nieuw: Beeld en geluid met MSN Messenger 7.0 http://messenger.msn.nl/
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
On Tue, 2005-05-31 at 15:37 +0200, Wouter Steenbeek wrote:
Guaka scripsit:
From my experience with both the Limburgish and the Bambara Wikipedia
nearly all existing institutes won't really bother as long as there's not a basic amount of articles.
Well, in the case of the Limburgic wikipedia: the institutions were simply ignorant of the project. Recently we started contacting some of them, receiving positive reactions and some beginning edits, even though they hadn't yet informed their members.
Well they were ignorant because they ignored the emails when there wasn't yet a basic amount of articles. I've sent mails before (I must confess I forgot where exactly) and apparently Node ue has done the same. So the institutions were ignorant because they ignored it. Which is reasonable, since there was nothing to see yet. Or nothing of interest to inform their members about.
Institutions usually consist of persons. It'll depend on the person who reads the mail on what's being done with it. If the Wikipedia is bigger chances are higher that the person will (re)act. Same if the person heard about Wikipedia (in general) before. Even more if the person would know that there are Wikipedia projects in nearly 200 languages.
Guaka!
Hi Amikeco,
I have been thinking it would be a good idea that you summarize your experience with os: on meta. Could it be possible that you write for us a text to explain it and which could be read by a person external to wikipedia ? Something like * "short summary" about ossetia and its language (possibly economic situation, number of speakers etc...) * History and current state of its wiki * your currently action, with number of people contacted, number of donators, amount of donation, which actions are intended...
this sort of things.
I'd like the talk page of it to be a place where we could comment on such actions, and possibly explore how the foundation could help.
Would that be okay ? I hope so...
Another point is whether you consider coming to Wikimania and possibly talk about this experience ?
Cheers
Anthere
V. Ivanov a écrit:
2005/5/30, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com:
Do you have any plans for any other Russian minority languages? Obviously the Tatar Wikipedia doesn't exactly need such a boost, but the Chuvash Wikipedia could use it (60-something articles right now I think), as could the Chechen, Abkhaz, etc.
I've been trying to change things about the Komi WP (kv), sending letters to the local university, etc. The activity had now respond, though. :)
I've also advertised the Caucasian wikipedias (ab, av, az, ce, hy, ka, os) at several Caucasian fora, but the effect was not that great, accept more often changes at ab and some stupid vandalism at av.
Surely, the whole thing is worth trying on.
Sl. / Amikeco
2005/5/31, Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com:
I have been thinking it would be a good idea that you summarize your experience with os: on meta. Could it be possible that you write for us a text to explain it and which could be read by a person external to wikipedia ? Something like
- "short summary" about ossetia and its language (possibly economic
situation, number of speakers etc...)
- History and current state of its wiki
- your currently action, with number of people contacted, number of
donators, amount of donation, which actions are intended... this sort of things.
It's a really good idea, but could you please find an apropriate place at meta fot that, create a "stub" with the structure of the presentation you want, and then give me the link. I'll fill the structure in -- and this way we'll have the report.
Thank you in advance, Sl.
Anthere wrote:
Ray Saintonge a écrit:
V. Ivanov wrote:
2005/5/28, Timwi timwi@gmx.net:
Maybe we should make this concept better known globally. Maybe we should organise a list of Wikipedians who are prepared to give
money to
poor people in return for an article in a language that has an
inactive
Wikipedia. The Wikipedians would be able to specify any conditions,
Say, offer a preferable topic or even a certain article (or article
set).
I would be wary of any scheme to pay people for articles. We have prided ourselves on an all volunteer production in all languages.
The one thing that is not mentioned in the discussion is who would fund this proposal. Is there a rich Ossetian benefactor willing to pay for this idea? There are many other languages that could benefit from this approach, but it should not be the responsibility of the general community to pay for such things in other languages either.
Hi Ec
This is not a proposal, it already exist. It is currently funded by individuals, who may or may not be contributors. I just do not know.
We do not have to say anything about this, it exists, it is independant and anyone should be free to find a way to help promote one language. I think the best *we* can do as *editors*, is to help them in their organisation, and also help them transform these teachers in more permanent editors in the long term (feeling proud of a good article featured on home page is one of these ways... there are others...). Typical limitation could be "we offer you money for a good article, but for no more than xx articles".
I'm satisfied to know that the funding for this is local. As long as it's clear that the funding for this sort of thing comes from a local organization there can be no liability by WMF in general for unkept promises or other legal problems. Perhaps it would be good to have a written policy by the Board disclaiming responsibility for local activity, which would be the subject of local law.
The more positive attitude that I have is that funding from people directly interested in a language will do more for that Wikipedia (or Wiktionary) than any kind of advocating that someone like Mark would do. Those of us who to whom Ossetian and Bambara are nothing more than entries in a dictionary of languages can do nothing practical about the development of Wikis in those languages. Local organizations should also feel free to seek government funding for work on their own language. African governments are notoriously poor, and cannot be expected to do much, but even they can gain better support from their own population by investing small amounts in the right places. Small amounts invested by an African government to protect local culture from aggressive foreign languages may be more productive than anything that Mr. Chirac can sapend in support of his own seriously endangered language.
But you raise an important issue, which is whether *we* as an *organisation* should financially help similar ideas (ie, paying editors). Of course, this requires specific requirements (such as control, validation of final quality, starting language with few editors expected, local organisers etc...), but on the concept, should we or should we not ?
No minor language project can succeed unles it has at least one highly dedicated who can guide the project through its infancy, and begin to attract others to the project. The down side of this is that a new project may express a strong POV on such delicate subjects as Ossetian independance. Beyond those early days when the need is to develop functioning software, the next test becomes how it deals with other personalities that have an equally strong butdifferent POV.
You are perfectly allright : till now, editors have always been volunteers. Which could be the consequences that start paying some, even if it is on a small and little know language ?
Again, to have a sucessful project the initiative must come from those who would belong to that project, not from those of us sitting in our rich country idealism. We can make them aware of the possibilities; we can even supply hardware. Beyond that it's up to them. A football team that does not kick the ball does not win.
As a reminder, only 3 people have till now financially directly making benefits. Larry initially, now Brion and Chad Perrin. Another person should soon be welcome as well to help with the paperwork. The three last people concerned, paid by or soon to be paid by the Foundation, have received the approval from Jimbo, Angela and myself... and that the three are americans exclusively. Other benefits made in terms of "personal income" were non direct (such as development contracts with other organisations).
Larry was probably a necessary wet nurse in his time. While Jimbe likely needed to more directly spend time with the infrastructure then, engineering a working model of the intellectual structure was a big job. The initiator of a new project should not need to worry about infrastructure or the development of a working model. He can be more quickly involved with content. Brion and Chad are not being paid for content, but for more technical services that couldn't be done otherwise. We can accomodate dilletantes among content providers where we have many. There are as many dilletantes in the world of software development, often with many ideas and little practical experience. In that environment a hired cat-herder is very important.
I'm not up-to-date on the need for a paperwork person, but it's easy to imagine that need in an organisation that's so big. I appreciate your point about the positions being filled by Americans. For Chad's position I don't think that other viable options were available, and Brion is probably the best person for the job, nationality notwithstanding. I can't comment on the paperwork person, because I don't know exactly what needs to be done, though I suspect much of it may have to do with preparing reports to comply with American laws. The role of Americans in many international situations is a very sensitive issue with many competing facets that go beyond our little project. It would be unwise for me to go further down that road at this time.
Given that the goal of the Foundation is "to encouraging the growth, development and distribution of free, multilingual content, and to providing the full content of these wiki-based projects to the public free of charge", I would say that supporting such projects (ie, paying editors in certain specific conditions) is within our area of action. What I do not know is whether it would be acceptable to do it with donation money, or if grants should be seek (sought ?) to support such an involvement. I would really welcome opinions on this. In the past year, I have seen little criticizing (as opposed to supporting) comments related to the way the Foundation money should be spent, but for comments saying (a year ago) that developers should get paid in priorities before Angie and my costs be reimbursed, or comments saying (early 2005) that with all the money we got, the website should be more accessible.
Since you raised the point, "sought" is the correct usage there.
I oppose a general policy of paying editors. The effect of that is to set up two classes of editors, and that results in quite a different dynamicamong the editors. Even if it becomes necessary to pay someone to provide organizational coherence to a specific project, it should be made clear that he is not being paid to edit. Such paid jobs should have a limited duration with no possibility of rehiring for a period of time that is at least twice as long as the job lasted.
Reimbursing someone for her proper expenses is completely different from paying that person for the job that she does. I think that the comments that you cite are made out of ignorance by someone who has never had to do business. If you need to travel somewhere as an official representative of the WMF you certainly should not need to pay for your own plane fare
So, I am not sure whether it would be globally acceptable, borderline but acceptable, or frankly unacceptable to the editors or not.
Perhaps a beginning of an answer would be that current developers do not seem overall to be mad with the idea of Chad and Brion be paid, while they are not. It may be because they consider Brion has been working a lot for the project and deserve to be partially paid by the Foundation, it may be because they consider that Chad work is required and can not be done any more by Jimbo. In short, it is acceptable because one is known and loved, and acceptable because the other is seen as doing a mandatory job. I am not sure, not being in the developer team. I suppose participation to such project will be possibly acceptable to editors if they can see where the benefits stands. Just thoughts. Waiting for all of yours.
There are two aspects of such hiring decisions: do we need to fill such a position, and who should be that person. If we don't need to hire somebody it is pointless to look for somebody to hire. The job needs to be defined first.
Ec
I'm not sure if you intended that as an attack on me, but regardless I want to remind you:
Without my advocacy, the Sicilian Wikipedia which is now at nearly 1000 articles would probably never have been created, the Friulian one may never have been created (though, unlike with Sicilian, there were already Wikipedians who wanted a Wikipedia in their language), and the Sardinian one would probably have been requested just a couple of weeks ago.
I am also confident that in some way or another my advocacy helped in the development of the Georgian, Armenian, Maltese, Bangla, Sami, Chuvash, and other Wikipedias where I suggested to people that they request sysop status and translate the interface.
Despite all that though, for every single one of those Wikipedias, most of the work that got them to where they are now was done by dedicated native speakers - I didn't have much of a role in any of them after the very beginning (though Pippu D'Angelo and I still correspond sort of).
Sending out 100 e-mails letting people know that there is a Wikipedia in their language generally gets me about 10 responses, and if I am lucky 1 or 2 actual long-term contributors.
But it doesn't cost anybody any money.
Mark
On 30/05/05, Ray Saintonge saintonge@telus.net wrote:
Anthere wrote:
Ray Saintonge a écrit:
V. Ivanov wrote:
2005/5/28, Timwi timwi@gmx.net:
Maybe we should make this concept better known globally. Maybe we should organise a list of Wikipedians who are prepared to give
money to
poor people in return for an article in a language that has an
inactive
Wikipedia. The Wikipedians would be able to specify any conditions,
Say, offer a preferable topic or even a certain article (or article
set).
I would be wary of any scheme to pay people for articles. We have prided ourselves on an all volunteer production in all languages.
The one thing that is not mentioned in the discussion is who would fund this proposal. Is there a rich Ossetian benefactor willing to pay for this idea? There are many other languages that could benefit from this approach, but it should not be the responsibility of the general community to pay for such things in other languages either.
Hi Ec
This is not a proposal, it already exist. It is currently funded by individuals, who may or may not be contributors. I just do not know.
We do not have to say anything about this, it exists, it is independant and anyone should be free to find a way to help promote one language. I think the best *we* can do as *editors*, is to help them in their organisation, and also help them transform these teachers in more permanent editors in the long term (feeling proud of a good article featured on home page is one of these ways... there are others...). Typical limitation could be "we offer you money for a good article, but for no more than xx articles".
I'm satisfied to know that the funding for this is local. As long as it's clear that the funding for this sort of thing comes from a local organization there can be no liability by WMF in general for unkept promises or other legal problems. Perhaps it would be good to have a written policy by the Board disclaiming responsibility for local activity, which would be the subject of local law.
The more positive attitude that I have is that funding from people directly interested in a language will do more for that Wikipedia (or Wiktionary) than any kind of advocating that someone like Mark would do. Those of us who to whom Ossetian and Bambara are nothing more than entries in a dictionary of languages can do nothing practical about the development of Wikis in those languages. Local organizations should also feel free to seek government funding for work on their own language. African governments are notoriously poor, and cannot be expected to do much, but even they can gain better support from their own population by investing small amounts in the right places. Small amounts invested by an African government to protect local culture from aggressive foreign languages may be more productive than anything that Mr. Chirac can sapend in support of his own seriously endangered language.
But you raise an important issue, which is whether *we* as an *organisation* should financially help similar ideas (ie, paying editors). Of course, this requires specific requirements (such as control, validation of final quality, starting language with few editors expected, local organisers etc...), but on the concept, should we or should we not ?
No minor language project can succeed unles it has at least one highly dedicated who can guide the project through its infancy, and begin to attract others to the project. The down side of this is that a new project may express a strong POV on such delicate subjects as Ossetian independance. Beyond those early days when the need is to develop functioning software, the next test becomes how it deals with other personalities that have an equally strong butdifferent POV.
You are perfectly allright : till now, editors have always been volunteers. Which could be the consequences that start paying some, even if it is on a small and little know language ?
Again, to have a sucessful project the initiative must come from those who would belong to that project, not from those of us sitting in our rich country idealism. We can make them aware of the possibilities; we can even supply hardware. Beyond that it's up to them. A football team that does not kick the ball does not win.
As a reminder, only 3 people have till now financially directly making benefits. Larry initially, now Brion and Chad Perrin. Another person should soon be welcome as well to help with the paperwork. The three last people concerned, paid by or soon to be paid by the Foundation, have received the approval from Jimbo, Angela and myself... and that the three are americans exclusively. Other benefits made in terms of "personal income" were non direct (such as development contracts with other organisations).
Larry was probably a necessary wet nurse in his time. While Jimbe likely needed to more directly spend time with the infrastructure then, engineering a working model of the intellectual structure was a big job. The initiator of a new project should not need to worry about infrastructure or the development of a working model. He can be more quickly involved with content. Brion and Chad are not being paid for content, but for more technical services that couldn't be done otherwise. We can accomodate dilletantes among content providers where we have many. There are as many dilletantes in the world of software development, often with many ideas and little practical experience. In that environment a hired cat-herder is very important.
I'm not up-to-date on the need for a paperwork person, but it's easy to imagine that need in an organisation that's so big. I appreciate your point about the positions being filled by Americans. For Chad's position I don't think that other viable options were available, and Brion is probably the best person for the job, nationality notwithstanding. I can't comment on the paperwork person, because I don't know exactly what needs to be done, though I suspect much of it may have to do with preparing reports to comply with American laws. The role of Americans in many international situations is a very sensitive issue with many competing facets that go beyond our little project. It would be unwise for me to go further down that road at this time.
Given that the goal of the Foundation is "to encouraging the growth, development and distribution of free, multilingual content, and to providing the full content of these wiki-based projects to the public free of charge", I would say that supporting such projects (ie, paying editors in certain specific conditions) is within our area of action. What I do not know is whether it would be acceptable to do it with donation money, or if grants should be seek (sought ?) to support such an involvement. I would really welcome opinions on this. In the past year, I have seen little criticizing (as opposed to supporting) comments related to the way the Foundation money should be spent, but for comments saying (a year ago) that developers should get paid in priorities before Angie and my costs be reimbursed, or comments saying (early 2005) that with all the money we got, the website should be more accessible.
Since you raised the point, "sought" is the correct usage there.
I oppose a general policy of paying editors. The effect of that is to set up two classes of editors, and that results in quite a different dynamicamong the editors. Even if it becomes necessary to pay someone to provide organizational coherence to a specific project, it should be made clear that he is not being paid to edit. Such paid jobs should have a limited duration with no possibility of rehiring for a period of time that is at least twice as long as the job lasted.
Reimbursing someone for her proper expenses is completely different from paying that person for the job that she does. I think that the comments that you cite are made out of ignorance by someone who has never had to do business. If you need to travel somewhere as an official representative of the WMF you certainly should not need to pay for your own plane fare
So, I am not sure whether it would be globally acceptable, borderline but acceptable, or frankly unacceptable to the editors or not.
Perhaps a beginning of an answer would be that current developers do not seem overall to be mad with the idea of Chad and Brion be paid, while they are not. It may be because they consider Brion has been working a lot for the project and deserve to be partially paid by the Foundation, it may be because they consider that Chad work is required and can not be done any more by Jimbo. In short, it is acceptable because one is known and loved, and acceptable because the other is seen as doing a mandatory job. I am not sure, not being in the developer team. I suppose participation to such project will be possibly acceptable to editors if they can see where the benefits stands. Just thoughts. Waiting for all of yours.
There are two aspects of such hiring decisions: do we need to fill such a position, and who should be that person. If we don't need to hire somebody it is pointless to look for somebody to hire. The job needs to be defined first.
Ec
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Ray Saintonge wrote:
I would be wary of any scheme to pay people for articles. We have prided ourselves on an all volunteer production in all languages.
I am both wary and wildly enthusiastic. This is something which is springing up around the world with little or no input from us, spontaneously and grassroots, and that's usually an indicator of it being a Good Thing. I am hopeful that it will prove useful, but I wonder.
--Jimbo
I don't see any potential downside for the Foundation - either it works or it doesn't, and none of the Foundation's resources go out to it either way.
Another thing though - in some areas, people are so poor and so wanting for money that they would be absolutely shocked that you would pay them just to write in their language.
And remember, 1/2 of a US dollar will buy you a loaf of bread in Viet Nam, and much more in some other places.
Mark
On 04/06/05, Jimmy Wales jwales@wikia.com wrote:
Ray Saintonge wrote:
I would be wary of any scheme to pay people for articles. We have prided ourselves on an all volunteer production in all languages.
I am both wary and wildly enthusiastic. This is something which is springing up around the world with little or no input from us, spontaneously and grassroots, and that's usually an indicator of it being a Good Thing. I am hopeful that it will prove useful, but I wonder.
--Jimbo
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
You're wrong about Navajo. Hundreds of thousands of speakers, yes. (180k is about right iirc?) Millions? Unfortunately, no.
There are few Native American languages with over 1 million speakers, those include:
Guarani (3 million iirc, official language of Peru) Nahuatl (if you consider it to be a single language; about 15 million I think??) Quechua (about 8 million) Aymara (about 6 million)
And I *think* that's all. No, Navajo, Ojibwe, Cree, Cherokee, blah, blah etc. do *not* have over 1 million speakers.
Some of the native languages of Arizona: Navajo: 150.000 (about 80.000 in Arizona,) - iirc O'odham: 35.000 (??... also spoken in Mexico in the state of Sonora) Yaqui: 16.450 (of the divergent Arizona Yaqui there are 450, the rest are of the Mexican dialect and only in Mexico) W. Apache aka Coyotero Apache: 13.000 Zuni: 10.000 (mostly in New Mexico - perhaps only a few hundred in Arizona) Hopi: 5.500 Ute & S. Paiute: 2.000 (largely in Nevada, Colorado, Utah) Tewa: 1.300 (mostly in New Mexico) Walapai: 1.000 Havasupai: 550 Chiricahua Apache: 300 (almost all in New Mexico and Oklahoma) Maricopa & Xalychidom: 200 Yavapai: 200 Quechan: 150 Cocopah: 150 Mojave: 75 (on the Arizona-California border) Chemehuevi: 10 (on the Arizona-California border) - iirc Kickapoo: (don't think there are any in Arizona, most Kickapoo speakers live in Oklahoma or Mexico)
The numbers however are often wildly inaccurate, most are higher, some are off by just a little but others are off by a _lot_. For some of the languages, you could be misled to believe that not many of the ethnic group speak it anymore, yet the ethnic group is small as well (Havasupai is spoken by 99% of living Havasupai people, yet there are only 550 speakers; Walapai on the other hand has 1.000 speakers but there at least twice as many Walapai people)
Mark
On 28/05/05, Timwi timwi@gmx.net wrote:
V. Ivanov wrote:
The idea is not absolutely new. We use the absolutely similar approach at the Ossetic Wikipedia (we call it "Project <<Tskhinval Teachers>>". The essence of the project is paying teachers from South Ossetia a 2,5-USD equivalent for every article (up from 2500 characters).
Aw man! I would gladly pay that sum to anyone who can write articles in some of my favourite exotic languages (Zulu, Xhosa, Navajo, Nahuatl, Hmong -- all of these are million-speaker languages).
Maybe we should make this concept better known globally. Maybe we should organise a list of Wikipedians who are prepared to give money to poor people in return for an article in a language that has an inactive Wikipedia. The Wikipedians would be able to specify any conditions, but once their conditions are fulfilled, they should be legally obliged to pay out the money they offered.
Of course, for that to work, there needs to be a way of getting the message (and later, the money) to the people. Maybe someone has a few ideas?
http://os.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%B6%D1%83%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B9%D1%82%D1%8... http://os.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%B7%D1%83%D1%86%D1%86%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8...
Maybe someone should add interwiki links to these. :-)
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
There are a lot of Roma people in Serbia and they are very very poor. Maybe it is better to organize some stipendies for some of them to study and work on Wikipedia? Average salary in Serbia is around $350/month, but I think it would be enough $100 for some yung Roma who study high school or university. Romas in high school are very rare, so it can be the target population. (I would waste a lot of time to find some Roma who is studing something on university.)
I don't think that it is bad idea. Almost all of us are working on Wikipedia in his/her free time, but a lot of small ethicities are living very poor and they don't have enough of free time.
Wikipedia became important global cultural movement. And Wikipedians should start to thinkg about helping other people to become a part of their movement.
On 5/28/05, Timwi timwi@gmx.net wrote:
V. Ivanov wrote:
The idea is not absolutely new. We use the absolutely similar approach at the Ossetic Wikipedia (we call it "Project <<Tskhinval Teachers>>". The essence of the project is paying teachers from South Ossetia a 2,5-USD equivalent for every article (up from 2500 characters).
Aw man! I would gladly pay that sum to anyone who can write articles in some of my favourite exotic languages (Zulu, Xhosa, Navajo, Nahuatl, Hmong -- all of these are million-speaker languages).
Maybe we should make this concept better known globally. Maybe we should organise a list of Wikipedians who are prepared to give money to poor people in return for an article in a language that has an inactive Wikipedia. The Wikipedians would be able to specify any conditions, but once their conditions are fulfilled, they should be legally obliged to pay out the money they offered.
Of course, for that to work, there needs to be a way of getting the message (and later, the money) to the people. Maybe someone has a few ideas?
http://os.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%B6%D1%83%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B9%D1%82%D1%8... http://os.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%B7%D1%83%D1%86%D1%86%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8...
Maybe someone should add interwiki links to these. :-)
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Kaspar Souren (are you on this list? :), who I believe is spearheading the Bambara effort, is hoping to come to Wikimania this summer to talk about how that project is going.
The combination of getting small grants from outside organizations, and working with people on the ground who are already doing other volunteer work in countries where the language is spoken, seems both natural and scalable.
I wonder how many others on this list are volunteers or non-profit employees in parts of the world where the local languages have small or dormant Wikipedias; and what we can do to help them get funding and publicity for similar projects.
SJ
On 5/27/05, Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
Just to keep up with information.... I saw an announcement today in two websites, so thought it worth to say a bit about it
.... Perhaps to divert our gentle editors from daily life in France or in the USA ... (grin)
News from a very minor wikipedia (I think this deserves to be reported in next Quarto Sj, I'll write up a bit....)
The association Geekcorps recently (it started possibly 2 months ago) made a lot of efforts to try to stimulate a minor wikipedia in an african language. Along with work in translation of the interface, addition of major rules and principles of Wikipedia, Geekcorps also decided to motivate editors speaking bambara in Mali to participate to the bambara wikipedia (http://bm.wikipedia.org) in a *financial* way.
The conditions : to live in Mali and to be able to write in bambara. The prize is : 200 CFA to earn per article written with at least 200 words (max 5000 CFA per person) plus a bonus prize for specific actions. Specific actions are
- translation of document or interface
- start a wikibooks on Bamanankan
- start Bamanankan Wikiquotes
- start Bamanankan Wiktionary
- start another wikipedia in other languages spoken in Mali
(Note that there are no requirement of quality to get the prize per article, but the length)
Geekcorps also remind to Mali editors that Mali people might be interested in the following languages
- french (fr)
- english (en)
- fulfude (ff)
- wolof (wo)
The bambara version is still not very active, but Guaka is working on it from time to time. But what I find interesting is the organisation proposal... this way might be one of the good ones to really get such versions off the ground. Ie, a wikipedia being babysitted by a local organisation.
I think there is much interest in following such initiatives. What do you think ?
Please also look at the site of MaliWiki : http://mali.geekcorps.org/mediawiki/index.php/Accueil (based on mediawiki)
Note that there are a couple of slightly embarassing little issues related to these attempts by local organisations. For example, when an organisation (ANAFA) made some work on the wolof version about 3 months ago, someone asked me a sysop account, which I gave (usual process for small projects). I however noticed soon after that the main page was a bit cluttered with quite a bit of advertisement for their organisation. (see for example http://wo.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&oldid=1482) I tried to discuss to them about that, and since we did not really reached an agreement, I had to remove the sysop status.
Since then, the wo is inactive.
Ant
Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site! _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Hi Anthere
I have heard about the project and am skeptical if it will really work or not, but I totally support it because I hope it does. (this could mean growth opportunities for other Wikipedias, primarily in languages spoken mostly in third-world areas: so far there is no single African-language Wikipedia, other than Afrikaans, with over 100 articles, even Swahili which drew some attention for a while; also some other Wikipedias might be candidates, ie central asian languages, native american languages could get a lot of grant money probably)
We do need to be careful though that bm.wikipedia does not turn into a portal for telling people about GC Mali. It isn't quite so bad (the way the Wolof Wikipedia got, I mean), but we should still be careful.
Also we should have to consider the issue of Bambara in the context of Mande. Should t there be one Wikipedia for all varieties of Mande (includes Bambara)? Or should there be a multitude of smaller Wikipedias for each variety? With either option (but especially the first!) NKo script conversion needs to be considered.
Mark
On 27/05/05, Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
Just to keep up with information.... I saw an announcement today in two websites, so thought it worth to say a bit about it
.... Perhaps to divert our gentle editors from daily life in France or in the USA ... (grin)
News from a very minor wikipedia (I think this deserves to be reported in next Quarto Sj, I'll write up a bit....)
The association Geekcorps recently (it started possibly 2 months ago) made a lot of efforts to try to stimulate a minor wikipedia in an african language. Along with work in translation of the interface, addition of major rules and principles of Wikipedia, Geekcorps also decided to motivate editors speaking bambara in Mali to participate to the bambara wikipedia (http://bm.wikipedia.org) in a *financial* way.
The conditions : to live in Mali and to be able to write in bambara. The prize is : 200 CFA to earn per article written with at least 200 words (max 5000 CFA per person) plus a bonus prize for specific actions. Specific actions are
- translation of document or interface
- start a wikibooks on Bamanankan
- start Bamanankan Wikiquotes
- start Bamanankan Wiktionary
- start another wikipedia in other languages spoken in Mali
(Note that there are no requirement of quality to get the prize per article, but the length)
Geekcorps also remind to Mali editors that Mali people might be interested in the following languages
- french (fr)
- english (en)
- fulfude (ff)
- wolof (wo)
The bambara version is still not very active, but Guaka is working on it from time to time. But what I find interesting is the organisation proposal... this way might be one of the good ones to really get such versions off the ground. Ie, a wikipedia being babysitted by a local organisation.
I think there is much interest in following such initiatives. What do you think ?
Please also look at the site of MaliWiki : http://mali.geekcorps.org/mediawiki/index.php/Accueil (based on mediawiki)
Note that there are a couple of slightly embarassing little issues related to these attempts by local organisations. For example, when an organisation (ANAFA) made some work on the wolof version about 3 months ago, someone asked me a sysop account, which I gave (usual process for small projects). I however noticed soon after that the main page was a bit cluttered with quite a bit of advertisement for their organisation. (see for example http://wo.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&oldid=1482) I tried to discuss to them about that, and since we did not really reached an agreement, I had to remove the sysop status.
Since then, the wo is inactive.
Ant
Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site! _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Anthere wrote:
The association Geekcorps recently (it started possibly 2 months ago) made a lot of efforts to try to stimulate a minor wikipedia in an african language. Along with work in translation of the interface, addition of major rules and principles of Wikipedia, Geekcorps also decided to motivate editors speaking bambara in Mali to participate to the bambara wikipedia (http://bm.wikipedia.org) in a *financial* way.
How come that the Main Page is still largely in French? I am particularly surprised that it seems to switch between Bamanankan and French in the middle of sentences.
Because Guaka (head of the Wikipedia-Mali effort AFAIK) doesn't know Bambara; he's been replacing words and phrases as they become available to him.
I'm still not sure it's the best approach: I think he should leave something in French until he can find a translation of the whole sentence, rather than replacing words.
Mark
On 28/05/05, Timwi timwi@gmx.net wrote:
Anthere wrote:
The association Geekcorps recently (it started possibly 2 months ago) made a lot of efforts to try to stimulate a minor wikipedia in an african language. Along with work in translation of the interface, addition of major rules and principles of Wikipedia, Geekcorps also decided to motivate editors speaking bambara in Mali to participate to the bambara wikipedia (http://bm.wikipedia.org) in a *financial* way.
How come that the Main Page is still largely in French? I am particularly surprised that it seems to switch between Bamanankan and French in the middle of sentences.
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Agreed.
The only important thing is that potential editors understand what it is all about. Ant
Mark Williamson a écrit:
Because Guaka (head of the Wikipedia-Mali effort AFAIK) doesn't know Bambara; he's been replacing words and phrases as they become available to him.
I'm still not sure it's the best approach: I think he should leave something in French until he can find a translation of the whole sentence, rather than replacing words.
Mark
On 28/05/05, Timwi timwi@gmx.net wrote:
Anthere wrote:
The association Geekcorps recently (it started possibly 2 months ago) made a lot of efforts to try to stimulate a minor wikipedia in an african language. Along with work in translation of the interface, addition of major rules and principles of Wikipedia, Geekcorps also decided to motivate editors speaking bambara in Mali to participate to the bambara wikipedia (http://bm.wikipedia.org) in a *financial* way.
How come that the Main Page is still largely in French? I am particularly surprised that it seems to switch between Bamanankan and French in the middle of sentences.
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Timwi a écrit:
Anthere wrote:
The association Geekcorps recently (it started possibly 2 months ago) made a lot of efforts to try to stimulate a minor wikipedia in an african language. Along with work in translation of the interface, addition of major rules and principles of Wikipedia, Geekcorps also decided to motivate editors speaking bambara in Mali to participate to the bambara wikipedia (http://bm.wikipedia.org) in a *financial* way.
How come that the Main Page is still largely in French? I am particularly surprised that it seems to switch between Bamanankan and French in the middle of sentences.
It may come from 2 reasons
1) they possibly did not have time to entirely translate it
2) this country is french speaking. In countries were several languages co-exist, it is quite frequent to mix 2 languages, even in the same sentence. For example, in Marocco, you may hear a conversation switching from french to arab or from arab to french from one word to the next. It is due to the fact many are just as confortable with both languages. The first language to come when they look for a word... is the "winner". Typically, most discussions involving technical terminology is made in french. Daily discussion about food is more in arab.
Guaka might give other explanations or reflect on these ones ?
Ant
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