Wikipedia new language request. There are 182.1 million people in Brazil who use Brazilian Portuguese as their main language. Brazilian Portuguese IS NOT the same as Portuguese (domain pt.wikipedia.org) and it still isn't on the list (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Complete_list_of_language_wikis_available)
--- Felipe Sanches felipe.sanches@gmail.com wrote:
Wikipedia new language request. There are 182.1 million people in Brazil who use Brazilian Portuguese as their main language. Brazilian Portuguese IS NOT the same as Portuguese (domain pt.wikipedia.org) and it still isn't on the list (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Complete_list_of_language_wikis_available)
American English isn't the same as British English nor is Mexican Spanish the same as Spanish Spanish.
So you are going to have to justify balkanizing the Portuguese Wikipedia, IMO. A vote on that wiki (which is rather large and active) should be conducted.
-- mav
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Daniel Mayer wrote:
American English isn't the same as British English nor is Mexican Spanish the same as Spanish Spanish.
So you are going to have to justify balkanizing the Portuguese Wikipedia, IMO.
I agree completely about the need to justify.
http://www.jrdias.com/jrd-portugal-brasil.htm looks to be an excellent resource for English speakers to learn about the issue.
I don't know enough to make a valid judgment, but it seems that the differences may be substntial.
http://www.necco.ca/faq_what_clients_need_to_know.htm is linked from that earlier page, and gives an overview.
--Jimbo
Daniel Mayer wrote:
--- Felipe Sanches felipe.sanches@gmail.com wrote:
Wikipedia new language request. There are 182.1 million people in Brazil who use Brazilian Portuguese as their main language. Brazilian Portuguese IS NOT the same as Portuguese (domain pt.wikipedia.org) and it still isn't on the list (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Complete_list_of_language_wikis_available)
American English isn't the same as British English nor is Mexican Spanish the same as Spanish Spanish.
So you are going to have to justify balkanizing the Portuguese Wikipedia, IMO. A vote on that wiki (which is rather large and active) should be conducted.
I don't think that a vote would help. It will only show one group to be dominant, and may just divide that community even more. Accepting the other side's way of expressing itself is worth a lot more.
Ec
Ray Saintonge wrote:
I don't think that a vote would help. It will only show one group to be dominant, and may just divide that community even more. Accepting the other side's way of expressing itself is worth a lot more.
I think it's the opposite, but maybe I misunderstand you.
If a handful of Americans got fed up with those crazy British spellings and insane measurements that no one has ever heard of, like "kilometre" and such nonsense, and asked us to create an American English wikipedia, we would quite properly refuse, right? What we would say is "Accepting the other side's way of expressing itself is worth a lot more".
And that's what we do on en, i.e. "try to relax" about it. There are some conventions and standards, but it really (in my opinion) boils down to that: let's just relax and respect and accept that other people use words a little bit differently.
It would be unwise, I think, for people to declare that _only_ Brazilian Portuguese is acceptable, or that _only_ European Portuguese is acceptable. The best solution, I think, is for people to try to relax about it and get along. This will usually involve avoiding local expressions as much as necessary, and trying to be understanding.
--Jimbo
p.s. Just in case anyone asks, I'm just teasing *myself*, my own provincialism, when I make those jokes about crazy British spellings and the metric system.
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:
Ray Saintonge wrote:
I don't think that a vote would help. It will only show one group to be dominant, and may just divide that community even more. Accepting the other side's way of expressing itself is worth a lot more.
I think it's the opposite, but maybe I misunderstand you.
Puzzled???? Since our views appear to co-incide on this. - Consensus building is to be preferred over voting.
If a handful of Americans got fed up with those crazy British spellings and insane measurements that no one has ever heard of, like "kilometre" and such nonsense, and asked us to create an American English wikipedia, we would quite properly refuse, right? What we would say is "Accepting the other side's way of expressing itself is worth a lot more".
Canadian usage has always been based on a compromise between the two. On the Km issue we do tend to go with the international standard. :-)
And that's what we do on en, i.e. "try to relax" about it. There are some conventions and standards, but it really (in my opinion) boils down to that: let's just relax and respect and accept that other people use words a little bit differently.
It would be unwise, I think, for people to declare that _only_ Brazilian Portuguese is acceptable, or that _only_ European Portuguese is acceptable. The best solution, I think, is for people to try to relax about it and get along. This will usually involve avoiding local expressions as much as necessary, and trying to be understanding.
That all seems to match my own view. These things have a way of working themselves out when given the time as long as we don't take a panicked approach, or one like voting which causes positions to harden. The two scripts for Serbian and Chinese, the accepted spelling for Jesus Christ in Romanian are only recent examples of an issue that will keep repeating itself.
Ec
How do we find out the results of a vote on a wiki? And who votes?
James
-----Original Message----- From: wikipedia-l-bounces@Wikimedia.org [mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces@Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Mayer Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 4:41 PM To: Felipe Sanches; wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Brazilian Portuguese
--- Felipe Sanches felipe.sanches@gmail.com wrote:
Wikipedia new language request. There are 182.1 million people in Brazil who use Brazilian Portuguese as their main language. Brazilian Portuguese IS NOT the same as Portuguese (domain pt.wikipedia.org) and it still isn't on the list (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Complete_list_of_language_wikis_availa ble)
American English isn't the same as British English nor is Mexican Spanish the same as Spanish Spanish.
So you are going to have to justify balkanizing the Portuguese Wikipedia, IMO. A vote on that wiki (which is rather large and active) should be conducted.
-- mav
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--- "James R. Johnson" modean52@comcast.net wrote:
How do we find out the results of a vote on a wiki?
You link to the result page.
And who votes?
The people who participate on the Portuguese wiki would be the ones to vote. Since they speak Portuguese, they, not non-speakers, are the ones best suited to decide if the differences between any of their dialects are sufficiently incompatible to warrent a separate wiki.
-- mav
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--- "James R. Johnson" modean52@comcast.net wrote:
How do we find out the results of a vote on a wiki?
You link to the result page.
And who votes?
The people who participate on the Portuguese wiki would be the ones to vote. Since they speak Portuguese, they, not non-speakers, are the ones best suited to decide if the differences between any of their dialects are sufficiently incompatible to warrent a separate wiki.
-- mav
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Daniel Mayer wrote:
American English isn't the same as British English nor is Mexican Spanish the same as Spanish Spanish.
American films that are filmed in American English are shown unaltered in Britain. The German dubbed version of films is shown unaltered in Austria and Switzerland. However, as far as I'm aware, Brazil and Portugal tend to prepare separate dubs.
Timwi
Timwi wrote:
Daniel Mayer wrote:
American English isn't the same as British English nor is Mexican Spanish the same as Spanish Spanish.
American films that are filmed in American English are shown unaltered in Britain. The German dubbed version of films is shown unaltered in Austria and Switzerland. However, as far as I'm aware, Brazil and Portugal tend to prepare separate dubs.
Quebec does not accept dubbing done in France, but that has less to to with language and more with protectionism.
Ec
On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:49:32 +0100, Timwi timwi@gmx.net wrote:
Daniel Mayer wrote:
American English isn't the same as British English nor is Mexican Spanish the same as Spanish Spanish.
American films that are filmed in American English are shown unaltered in Britain. The German dubbed version of films is shown unaltered in Austria and Switzerland. However, as far as I'm aware, Brazil and Portugal tend to prepare separate dubs.
I've heard that UK TV programs such as _Eastenders_ are subtitled in the USA; not sure if that's true.
Felipe Sanches wrote:
Wikipedia new language request. There are 182.1 million people in Brazil who use Brazilian Portuguese as their main language. Brazilian Portuguese IS NOT the same as Portuguese (domain pt.wikipedia.org) and it still isn't on the list (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Complete_list_of_language_wikis_available)
I'm worried that this might be just another aspect of the old nationalistic dispute that's been raging on pt for many months. We've had a Brazilian admin continually recreating a deleted article, and eventually getting frustrated and abusing his admin powers. He was de-sysopped by me. And the Portuguese admins report being constantly attacked for trying to uphold site-wide policy.
One of the Portuguese admins told me that the cause of the dispute is a Brazilian culture of copyright infringment. A Brazilian contributor would copy and paste from another website, and a Portuguese admin would delete it. Some of the Brazilian contributors apparently framed this as a nationalistic dispute, as if Portugal was trying to exert control over its former colony.
If we did have a Brazilian Portuguese wiki, it should be made very clear to them that all content must be public domain or legally licensed under GFDL. I imagine the wider Wikipedia community will have to regularly audit them for compliance.
-- Tim Starling
First of all, I do not speak English very well. I am from Brazil.
Both "Brazilian culture of copyright infringment" and "I imagine the wider Wikipedia community will have to regularly audit them for compliance." sound to me very offensive. I believe that the wider Wikipedia community has to regularly audit the wider Wikipedia. And this is all.
In the early days, pt.wiki was poor documented. Pt.wiki was Portuguese club for almost 3 years. I believe that Brazilians do not felt welcome. Portuguese and Brazilian ways of communicating, asking, answering, etc. are different. These things possibly triggered disputes. But we have to forget this past, because the reality now is other.
Rationally speaking as Jimbo demanded, I think that the pt_br.wiki is unnecessary: - pt_br (Brazilian) and pt_pt (European) are less different than American and British English are; - pt.wiki welcome all the variants of Portuguese. It is not allowed to change anything from one variant to another; - There are 18 Brazilians for each one Portuguese in the world. Brazilians WTFly crazily invaded orkut, fotolog and most the blogs. Quickly, Brazil will overrun pt.wikipedia. The portuguese people are the ones who should be worried, but they are not. - The most important: Brazil and Portugal governments are trying to unify pt_br and pt_pt. Some small countries are already using this unified Portuguese. Soon there will be only one Portuguese Language.
There is absolutely no chance of splitting the pt.wiki. It makes no sense at all.
e2m
Em Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:00:50 +1000, Tim Starling ts4294967296@hotmail.com escreveu:
Felipe Sanches wrote:
Wikipedia new language request. There are 182.1 million people in Brazil who use Brazilian Portuguese as their main language. Brazilian Portuguese IS NOT the same as Portuguese (domain pt.wikipedia.org) and it still isn't on the list (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Complete_list_of_language_wikis_available)
I'm worried that this might be just another aspect of the old nationalistic dispute that's been raging on pt for many months. We've had a Brazilian admin continually recreating a deleted article, and eventually getting frustrated and abusing his admin powers. He was de-sysopped by me. And the Portuguese admins report being constantly attacked for trying to uphold site-wide policy.
One of the Portuguese admins told me that the cause of the dispute is a Brazilian culture of copyright infringment. A Brazilian contributor would copy and paste from another website, and a Portuguese admin would delete it. Some of the Brazilian contributors apparently framed this as a nationalistic dispute, as if Portugal was trying to exert control over its former colony.
If we did have a Brazilian Portuguese wiki, it should be made very clear to them that all content must be public domain or legally licensed under GFDL. I imagine the wider Wikipedia community will have to regularly audit them for compliance.
-- Tim Starling
Emmanuel wrote:
- There are 18 Brazilians for each one Portuguese in the world.
Brazilians WTFly crazily invaded orkut, fotolog and most the blogs. Quickly, Brazil will overrun pt.wikipedia. The portuguese people are the ones who should be worried, but they are not.
I’m glad you mentioned blogs. LiveJournal faced a similar issue, and they decided to keep it together, as far as I can recall. They decided to try to use expressions that are understandable for both sides — and while this is easy on an interface, it’s by far not as obvious in the FAQs, which are, just like Wikipedia articles, long and made out of complete sentences.
Well, diversity is a sign of richness, isn't it?
Pedro
-----Mensaje original----- De: wikipedia-l-bounces@Wikimedia.org [mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces@Wikimedia.org]En nombre de Timwi Enviado el: jueves, 19 de agosto de 2004 18:58 Para: wikipedia-l@wikipedia.org Asunto: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Brazilian Portuguese
Emmanuel wrote:
- The most important: Brazil and Portugal governments are trying to
unify pt_br and pt_pt.
Wow. I wish they did that with English. And Spanish. And all other languages with minor variants across the ocean.
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It seems to me that brazilians were still not affected by a "wikipedia fever" - I mean, WP is far from being as well known as Orkut in Brazil.
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