Hi, [[WP:NPA]] -- you're not going to get anyone's sympathy nor their attention if you call people stupid. [[WP:OWN]] -- you don't own any of the articles you wrote. You gave up all rights to the text when you submitted them to Wikipedia. They will not be deleted. Mark On 13/02/07, Walter van Kalken <walter(a)vankalken.net> wrote: -- Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato.

Hoi, Even though what you write is true, you do not make the point by referring to the English Wikipedia rules. Thanks, GerardM Mark Williamson schreef:

It would stand up very poorly, as its an international issue and I'm not sure they made an expressed guarantee to you. Look, just be patient, get ahold of people who can effectively deal with your problem and keep a cool head Or keep blowing up at the list. Eventually we'll get bored. -S On 2/13/07, Walter van Kalken <walter(a)vankalken.net> wrote:

Thanks for your reaction, I would like to know how you would react if you were editting for years and this is happening every 2 or 3 weeks. And nobody reacts anymore. This whole pre-emptive blocking has blocked most of the Thai IP's on nl.wikipedia without there being any vandalism from those ip's. Waerth

On 13/02/07, Walter van Kalken <walter(a)vankalken.net> wrote: Sue and see if the GFDL holds up in court. - d.

Mathias Schindler wrote: Read Thai fora and websites over Thailand. It will not work. providers do not care as there are just a few foreigners suffering from this. Most Thais only visit Thai websites. Waerth Waerth

David Gerard wrote: This is about the 4th or 5th time in a year that this is happening so may I be tat pissed of. and in all those times I can only remember you as the least co-operative of all and the most aggressive. Waerth

Walter van Kalken wrote: I'n not sure how many nl.wiki sysops are on this list, but I'm pretty sure there are more on wikipedia-nl, or on the Dutch IRC channel. Since you're a well known and respected user, I see no reason why they shouldn't unblock your IP every time you ask, at least for registered users. If all Thailand shares the same IP, then it would be a good idea to write that in the IP's userpage, so that sysops only apply short or soft blocks. Or become sysop yourself so you can auto-unblock yourself... But I guess you already knew these answers... Marco

David Gerard wrote: nl-wikipedia has this feature as well. It is just that the mod who is autoblocking all open proxies (the vast majority of Thai ISP's) is NOT blocking with this switched on, he is hardblocking. He has been asked many times not to do this also in Dutch villagepump. But he still does it. Also having to ask this xx's of times in a short space is really getting on my nerves. Everytime it is promised the mod will change his ways everytime he doesn't. Waerth

On 13/02/07, Walter van Kalken <walter(a)vankalken.net> wrote: Surely nl:wp has procedures to deal with admins that the nl:wp community feel are running rogue, if that is what you are in fact alleging. (I think anyone coming to this list and alleging an en:wp admins was running rogue would be told "wrong list, go to wikien-l" in very short order. Is there a mailing list for nl:wp?) - d.

David Gerard schreef: Hoi, There are two lists. One of them, for this the most relevant is only for admins. It is not certain that all admins read this other list. Thanks, GerardM

On 2/13/07, Joshua Brady <somitho(a)gmail.com> wrote: I'm sure the ISPs will respond diligently by monitoring all pedias for vandalism, round the clock.

Mathias Schindler a écrit : As a general rule, telling people "go fix the local government" is of no help. You can't imagine seriously that Walter, an average non-Thai citizen, would have any influence on the Thai government, which, to top it, is not exactly democratic? Since this is unrealistic, what you're doing is just inflammatory irony, and it does not help.

On 2/13/07, Steve <subsume(a)gmail.com> wrote: Steve, No, but contacting an abuse department usually helps. If you care to point out a specific incident, I can look into it and contact the correct people. - Josh

Hmm.. at first I thought he was mouthing off but I think I see his point. On 2/13/07, Joshua Brady <somitho(a)gmail.com> wrote:

I wasn't aware their government was broken, at least not more than that of the average democratic republic. Mark On 13/02/07, Mathias Schindler <mathias.schindler(a)gmail.com> wrote: -- Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato.

Mathias Schindler wrote: If i correctly geussed what's happening: a) Thai ISPs put their users under transparent proxies. b) A nl admin regularly blocks them as "open proxy" a1) If the ISP proxy provides X-Fordwarded-For: header, talk with Tim Starling to add them to the XFF list. a2) Convince the ISP to remove the Proxy (almost imposible). b) No admin should block "open proxys" unless he confirms they're open proxys. Trick: Accesing via https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/nl/wiki/Hoofdpagina will probably bypass transparent proxys. I have found myself several times blocked on en.wikipedia due of being behind a proxy. Sometimes it was there were previous vandalism by other users. Others, it was alledged an "Open Proxy", either without reason or pointing to a proxy-list page. Astounishing, as neither the admin or the page mainteiners could have checked that proxy (maybe the lists were done by listing visitors behind it?). I sent several mails stating this, and asking for a lesser block (some were infinite hard blocks!). Well, i had no answer about this matter (could be unblocked without answering, however). Worse, my ISP doesn't provide means for stating if a given ip is one of their proxys or not. If an ip vandalised a page and -being accused of doing it- a checkuser showed that i had used that ip, i'd have no way to prove that ip being a transparent proxy, and not my personal ip. I'd probably be blocked forever. :(

As you can see the Dutch mods have done NOTHING, ZERO, NADA. And people here say I have NO reason to be angry! I have written over a 1000 articles to the wikipedia and now I am not able to edit them. I am raging in anger. Here is a screenshot I took today: http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/8069/stillblocked1cv4.jpg Sofar for EVERYONE can edit. I am not even a vandal. And people tell me to calm down. It has been TWO WEEKS now! And NO FUCKING BODY is doing anything at all. Fuck everyone with their stupid advices about being nice. I am leaving. Fuck the board for putting this stupid block all proxies in effect and refusing to do anything. Waerth

2007/2/18, Walter van Kalken <walter(a)vankalken.net>et>: I have been at the discussion with Effeietsanders on the Dutch IRC channel, and I must say that by now I am as angry as Waerth is. -- Andre Engels, andreengels(a)gmail.com ICQ: 6260644 -- Skype: a_engels

2007/2/18, Artur Fijałkowski <wiki.warx(a)gmail.com>om>: only? Well, I just got an explanation for that: 1. Official foundation policy is that open proxies are blocked 2. Any change from that should work and have no negative consequences 3. This change does not work because people in countries with these IP still cannot work on WikipediaNL 4. This change has the negative side effect that people can create a sockpuppet and use an open IP to edit from their sock puppet, which makes sock puppets less easy to detect. Do I agree with this? No. But I'm not a sysop, so my voice don't count. And if I were a sysop, probably anything I do would be considered wheel warring, with me voluntarily giving up sysop powers being the most likely outcome. -- Andre Engels, andreengels(a)gmail.com ICQ: 6260644 -- Skype: a_engels

Due to Internet censorship by the Singapore government, I am forced to edit through a proxy shared by 300,000 users. Many anonymous vandals use that IP address, and being the collateral damage of blocks is common. Note, however, that this is not an open proxy. On 2/18/07, Andre Engels <andreengels(a)gmail.com> wrote: -- Written with passion, J.L.W.S. The Special One

2007/2/18, Andre Engels <andreengels(a)gmail.com>om>: * Why for logged in users? 2. Any change from that should work and have no negative consequences * where is 'Assume good faith' ? Do I agree with this? No. But I'm not a sysop, so my voice don't count. And * Always thought that sysops are for helping Wikimedians not only banning :( And what about explicity using normal proxy? If we do not accept X-Forwarded-For it should bypass ban on 'invisible' proxy of the provider... AJF/WarX

2007/2/18, Francis Tyers <spectre(a)ivixor.net>et>: Question one I do not know. Question two is because it is policy to block open proxies. And the reason we block open proxies is that: * it is foundation policy * people who use proxies usually do this to avoid being blocked. It is never necessary to use open proxies to edit Wikipedia * people who standard work from an open proxy, know how to disable it At least, that's what I read from a discussion at IRC and the Dutch Wikipedia page about the policy. The sysop who actually does the blocking has not said anything about the issue yet. -- Andre Engels, andreengels(a)gmail.com ICQ: 6260644 -- Skype: a_engels

Walter van Kalken schreef: Hoi, Actually that sysop has a history of ignoring abuse and abusive people. Thanks, GerardM

Walter van Kalken wrote: Is that a threat or a promise? -- Lars Aronsson (lars(a)aronsson.se) Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se

While I certainly can't respect his delivery, I can definitely understand his angst in feeling unimportant, especially given his consistent contribution to the project. Can nobody help him? Even if it takes seeing past his disgusting presentation. -S On 2/18/07, Walter van Kalken <walter(a)vankalken.net> wrote:

Hoi, The notion of the sysops having too much power, is always seen from the outside. From the inside you will notice that the more power you seem to have the more careful you have to be when you wield it. One great strategy with people who complain is to make them part of the "establishment", this allows them to do "better". This is when the people still on the outside start to say that "power corrupts ...". The Dutch Wikipedia has on occasion added large groups of people to the rank of admin to prove that there is no such thing as a cabal. With hind sight is it obvious that this does not work. With the removal of the possibility of the use of proxies, it becomes more difficult to do nefarious deeds like sock puppetry. This is in and of itself a good thing. It will hopefully calm down our community. Where you say assume good faith, you definitely will find in the Dutch community that people assume that with no indications to the contrary the other party means well. There are however people who in word and deed demonstrate that there are indications that they do not mean well. When abuse has to be accepted because someone is "angry" and when this right of being angry is reserved to them then this is to much to ask from me and from many others. Where Andre says that his opinion is irrelevant because he is no sysop, I do disagree strongly. I know that many people will, and do listen when he makes his point. I know that I do.. then again I am no nl.wikipedia sysop either. I do know that I have my contacts in the Dutch community and I may make a point and this occasionally does have its consequences. There are many admins in the nl.wikipedia and as a group they are very diverse. You can not assume that they all play the same role, you cannot assume that one can be exchanged for another. There are people who are doing loads of technical stuff, there are those who do more community stuff. They all play their personal role. They are also all volunteers. When someone wants to force his way by any means, you will find that people just turn off. At such a moment, the relations are disturbed. For these relations to improve they do need to heal and, this is a process that requires time. In the past Waerth has threatened to do things that were incompatible with the role that he played in the WMF. As a consequence he is no longer a steward nor is he a sysop. This time he explicitly informed us that all his edits are copyright violations in the assumption that we will believe him and delete all he has ever done. This deletion of his work is something he informed the Dutch community that he wanted before. So yes, the relations are very much disturbed. Waerth made his bed, he can lie in it. It is his choice to be abusive. It is his choice to move away from the Dutch wiki community. It is a shame, because when you know him, when you talk to him one to one, he is not a bad person. Thanks, GerardM On 2/19/07, Andre Engels <andreengels(a)gmail.com> wrote: