Hello,
This message is especially for wikipedia users that would be close to Metz in july (9/10/11) http://wiki.ael.be/rmll2003 while the 3rd Libre Software Meeting will take place.
With libroscope team, we are leading a topic on « Le libre, au-delà du logiciel (Extending Free Software principles beyond the IT sphere) »
http://wiki.ael.be/rmll2003/index.php/FreeSoftwareBeyondIT
I am looking for a wikipedian speecher for this theme.
As a lurker^H^H^H chaotic contributor to wikipedia there are a lot of points that makes me think wikipedia is legitimate on this point :
- sharing the knowledge using mechanisme closed to libre software methodology (letting anyone contribute and using peer review)
- benevolent dictatorship model (Hi jim) with trusted lieutenant (like youssefan, alvaro, aoineko, ant ... for the one I know) ;
- focusing on user and the ease of use rather than technology ;
- making contributor have good practice by social engeneering (discussion, NPOV..) rather than with software implemented rules.
- web/email centric coordination (the virtual roof)
- from Kaos Management to Knowledge Management ;)
- a living proof wiki technology can give large scale structured website :) : you don't need complex technology to build large KM database.
The last point is the one I really like : focusing on peopleware seems to be a far better approach than focusing on a pure technological approach to build such a large scale project.
Anyone interested, and available ?
I have missed some points I know, and I would be glad to discuss it with you.
PS as a matter of fact, I guess that wikipedia is such a rich project that it could be appropriate to do more than one speech :)
As an individual I would be really interested in a conf on the architecture and the technological aspect though it is not the topic I work on.
PPS je parie que ça va se terminer à pas d'heure au bistro encore :)
(julien tayon julien@tayon.net):
This message is especially for wikipedia users that would be close to Metz in july (9/10/11) ... while the 3rd Libre Software Meeting will take place.
I don't know if any of us will be close, but I'm sure you could find several volunteers who wou;dn't mind a short trip to France if you sent us a ticket. :-)
I don't know if any of us will be close, but I'm sure you could find several volunteers who wou;dn't mind a short trip to France if you sent us a ticket. :-)
I have to check if we have a budget for this :), if so I will tell you. As a matter of fact I'd rather choose european people (Belgium, Germany, Luxembourg, France) close to Metz so that I can find a place to be hosted at the same time ;)
I already sent a call for contribution on the fr.wikipedia using the bistro (the frenche Village pump), I will see the result :)
Jul
--- julien tayon julien@tayon.net wrote:
Hello,
This message is especially for wikipedia users that would be close to Metz in july (9/10/11) http://wiki.ael.be/rmll2003 while the 3rd Libre Software Meeting will take place.
With libroscope team, we are leading a topic on � Le libre, au-del� du logiciel (Extending Free Software principles beyond the IT sphere) �
http://wiki.ael.be/rmll2003/index.php/FreeSoftwareBeyondIT
I am looking for a wikipedian speecher for this theme.
As a lurker^H^H^H chaotic contributor to wikipedia there are a lot of points that makes me think wikipedia is legitimate on this point :
- sharing the knowledge using mechanisme closed to
libre software methodology (letting anyone contribute and using peer review)
- benevolent dictatorship model (Hi jim) with
trusted lieutenant (like youssefan, alvaro, aoineko, ant ... for the one I know) ;
- focusing on user and the ease of use rather than
technology ;
- making contributor have good practice by social
engeneering (discussion, NPOV..) rather than with software implemented rules.
web/email centric coordination (the virtual roof)
from Kaos Management to Knowledge Management ;)
a living proof wiki technology can give large
scale structured website :) : you don't need complex technology to build large KM database.
The last point is the one I really like : focusing on peopleware seems to be a far better approach than focusing on a pure technological approach to build such a large scale project.
Anyone interested, and available ?
I have missed some points I know, and I would be glad to discuss it with you.
PS as a matter of fact, I guess that wikipedia is such a rich project that it could be appropriate to do more than one speech :)
As an individual I would be really interested in a conf on the architecture and the technological aspect though it is not the topic I work on.
PPS je parie que �a va se terminer � pas d'heure au bistro encore :)
Ah ben vin djou, je v'nais juste de me servir une Maredsous...(dans le verre ad'hoc, achet� � Anvers il y a des ann�es...)
B�, merci de me lieutenatiser :-) Fi�re je suis :-))
(tu t'y connais en �pilation ?)
Right. It is awfully interesting...especially the [[human capital]] perspective...though I don't see quite well what Kaos means ? (chaos, I do).
However, I am living quite far away from Metz...and working thoughout july. Perhaps one of the belgian people ? Youssef is the best pick here !
Talking about Youssefsan...we very deeply regret to announce wikipedians we have not been retained for "Les Troph�es du Libre".
This is quite insulting :-). We simply were the best choice. Perhaps they thought we were too good...
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Hi,
By the way working language is french||english budget is tight, but it will bring you an amount of glory that money can't buy.
By the way Anther, I meant chaos but the sigle KM is funnier ; does K stands for K(ch)aos or Knowledge ?
And in my heart you deserve to win «les trophées du libre».
The only point is that Libre Software Community thinks too geek sometimes, and they only see it is a poor technological innovation (you don't create a new protocol, you do not a claim for a new paradigm, you don't even cripple your wiki with bloated fonctionnalities).
I do think that the human part of WP is important, I guess it is related to libre software, and that you could bring a great contribution to a libre software meeting in making people remind that animation is the key point for a libre projet.
Je dis ça je dis rien :)
Friendly,
--- julien tayon julien@tayon.net wrote:
Hi,
By the way working language is french||english budget is tight, but it will bring you an amount of glory that money can't buy.
btw, whose budget is it ???
And in my heart you deserve to win �les troph�es du libre�. I do think that the human part of WP is important, I guess it is related to libre software, and that you could bring a great contribution to a libre software meeting in making people remind that animation is the key point for a libre projet.
Coming back to the human part Jul...I think it equally important that the human part is balanced. By which I mean we badly miss some parts of the francophone humanity, africans for a cultural example or women for a sexual example (I am sure this is a bad expression, never mind).
Trying to attract them is no easy work. I think some articles dealing with quite specific feminin matters could bring us some incoming traffic (incoming = new editors).
I am badly disappointed at the willingness some french-speaking editors show to delete articles dealing with epilation or swimming suit. There is a lot to say about these topics. Encyclopedic mattter I mean. History of the swimming suit (change of mores, differences of nudity perception among countries and cultures) Origin of the evolution (claimed sex liberation, freedom of the body, sun tanning...) Implications (skin cancer, skin aging, pressure to be thin, pressure to look good, and yes...pressure for bresilienne or total epilation)
A whole generation pressured by medias to fit in the mold. To spent money artificially sun tanning in winter, epilating till one look like a little kid.
I do not get it...this is at least as important than any article claiming that
"an '''apple''' is a [[fruit]]"
So, why can this one be acceptable as a stub, but an article on bresilian swimming suit not be ?
Very friendly Jul
Ant (a matriarchal society element)
__________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com
I am badly disappointed at the willingness some french-speaking editors show to delete articles dealing with epilation or swimming suit.
I know this guy very well ;)
I never was against the topic. The day I deleted it (a long time ago for me), it was unintentionnaly. Aoineko reverted it as soon as I told him (15 seconds later) and that's the reason why he was the apparent author of the article, if my memory is clear. I am accountable for that, and that's the only time I did such a thing.
[...]
"an '''apple''' is a [[fruit]]"
So, why can this one be acceptable as a stub, but an article on bresilian swimming suit not be ?
There is quite more information in the apple stub.
That is the reason why we use discussion page and mailing list : to come to an agreement. I think and said that the 10K article objective have induced a lower average quality. My opinion is quality is a better way to promote wikipedia than quantity. Being the 1st, 2nd or 10th wikipedia is a weaker motivation than trying to write accurate and well written article.
Given the fact we have time, and no constraint to publish at a given deadline and we claim to be an encyclopedia, where the focus should really be for you : having 10K articles and a lot of craps, or 5K articles with a minimum standard of quality/information?
Anyway Ant, as long as we don't have an agreement, I will not do anything else than complain ;).
Jul Psychology. Mind over matter. Mind under matter? It doesn't matter. Never mind.
--- julien tayon julien@tayon.net wrote:
I am badly disappointed at the willingness some french-speaking editors show to delete articles dealing with epilation or swimming suit.
I know this guy very well ;)
Yes ? :-)
I never was against the topic. The day I deleted it (a long time ago for me), it was unintentionnaly. Aoineko reverted it as soon as I told him (15 seconds later) and that's the reason why he was the apparent author of the article, if my memory is clear. I am accountable for that, and that's the only time I did such a thing.
You know what really get me at a loss here ?
How could you delete that article since you are no admin ???
Sometimes, some questions are better left unasked...
[...]
"an '''apple''' is a [[fruit]]"
So, why can this one be acceptable as a stub, but
an
article on bresilian swimming suit not be ?
There is quite more information in the apple stub.
That is the reason why we use discussion page and mailing list : to come to an agreement. I think and said that the 10K article objective have induced a lower average quality. My opinion is quality is a better way to promote wikipedia than quantity. Being the 1st, 2nd or 10th wikipedia is a weaker motivation than trying to write accurate and well written article.
I see no disagreement here between the two of us.
I entirely agree with this. Remind me of the times I had to battle to keep the integrity of some long articles by editors who wanted to take the opportunity of a long article to increase the page counter :-)
Given the fact we have time, and no constraint to publish at a given deadline and we claim to be an encyclopedia, where the focus should really be for you : having 10K articles and a lot of craps, or 5K articles with a minimum standard of quality/information?
Who are you trying to convince here ? Me ?
Me, who got mad and impolite at some editors for doing redirects or stubs rather than deleting a truely non-existant article ?!? LOL
I am not supporting keeping "stubs", I am supporting keeping "topics".
And notice you are trying to divert the discussion.
What you appear to disagree with is stubs and poor practice of artificially increase the article number. Not necessary swimming suits :-)
Anyway Ant, as long as we don't have an agreement, I will not do anything else than complain ;).
Sure. No prob. But, what are you exactly disagreeing with ? Removal of superfluous hair practices or "esquisses-stubs" ???
Jul Psychology. Mind over matter. Mind under matter? It doesn't matter. Never mind.
Hum...I preferred the previous quote...never mind
Amicalement
Ant (actuellement en plein baby sitting...pour de l'informatique...je suis maudite, maudite)
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How could you delete that article since you are no admin ???
Maybe it did not happened the way I think it did. My memeory is not clear on this point.
[...]
Who are you trying to convince here ? Me ?
[...]
I am not supporting keeping "stubs", I am supporting keeping "topics".
Who are you trying to convince here? me ? I agree with you there is no such thing as a meaningless topic.
Sure. No prob. But, what are you exactly disagreeing with ? Removal of superfluous hair practices or "esquisses-stubs" ???
Je vais le dire en français pour être sûr d'être compris.
Certains article ont été écrit de manière clairement non NPOV. Et je maintiens que les délire de philippe sur les homosexuels, transexuels, juifs et autres me cassaient les couilles car ils n'avaient pas leur place dans wikipedia à ce titre. Je n'ai pas proposé d'effacer l'article dans sa version actuelle qui me convient totalement, mais j'étais pour son effacement dans la version originale car il était : - non-NPOV - plus facile à ré-écrire from scratch qu'à reprendre
Étonnamment, la version actuelle est une ré-écriture totale. On aurait été plus vite en l'effaçant. Cet article était clairement un délire non objectif et pas franchement un article informatif.
Jul A woman is like your shadow; follow her, she flies; fly from her, she follows. -- Chamfort
Sure. No prob. But, what are you exactly
disagreeing
with ? Removal of superfluous hair practices or "esquisses-stubs" ???
Je vais le dire en fran�ais pour �tre s�r d'�tre compris.
Certains article ont �t� �crit de mani�re clairement non NPOV. Et je maintiens que les d�lire de philippe sur les homosexuels, transexuels, juifs et autres me cassaient les couilles car ils n'avaient pas leur place dans wikipedia � ce titre.
Nod. I entirely agree with you. The encyclopedia should stay crystal clear. I trust wikipedians to keep it a very clean place, with a zero tolerance of anything that could disturb our peace. No racism, no sexism, no faschism, no extremism, no nuclearism, no anti-joseboverism, no anti-anarchism...pouah, horrible !
Thank god, we are still allowing sex-related articles ! Good anchor for reality.
Amicalement
Ant
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