Dear Wikimedians,
List subscriber Dan Szymborski has been placed under moderation, due to posts with unacceptable language.
I remind everyone that criticism is appropriate and welcome on this list, so long as it remains civil and respectful of the people involved.
Asaf (volunteer capacity) on behalf of Wikimedia-l list moderators
Erm, wait. He said what, "fart"?
It's not a particularly good look for a WMF employee to be moderating someone critiquing the WMF, especially when, while their statement may have been strongly worded, it used pretty mild language. This should either be undone, or at least decided upon by someone who doesn't work for WMF. That's a substantial conflict of interest.
Todd
On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 1:57 PM Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Wikimedians,
List subscriber Dan Szymborski has been placed under moderation, due to posts with unacceptable language.
I remind everyone that criticism is appropriate and welcome on this list, so long as it remains civil and respectful of the people involved.
Asaf (volunteer capacity) on behalf of Wikimedia-l list moderators -- Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Hello Todd,
The notice was sent by Asaf on behalf of the list administrators. That is, he only communicated the decision of the list administrators and may not have directly participated in the discussion that resulted in the decision to moderate Dan.
I am not sure this mailing list administration is part of his JD at the WMF.
AFAIK, he's doing this as a volunteer and not as a WMF's Staffer. The same way a WMF staffer may be an administrator on Wikimedia projects.
Regards
Isaac
On Wed, 9 Sep 2020, 23:56 Todd Allen, toddmallen@gmail.com wrote:
Erm, wait. He said what, "fart"?
It's not a particularly good look for a WMF employee to be moderating someone critiquing the WMF, especially when, while their statement may have been strongly worded, it used pretty mild language. This should either be undone, or at least decided upon by someone who doesn't work for WMF. That's a substantial conflict of interest.
Todd
On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 1:57 PM Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Wikimedians,
List subscriber Dan Szymborski has been placed under moderation, due to posts with unacceptable language.
I remind everyone that criticism is appropriate and welcome on this list, so long as it remains civil and respectful of the people involved.
Asaf (volunteer capacity) on behalf of Wikimedia-l list moderators -- Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Indeed, there is a potential conflict of interest here. This is why I strongly tend to leniency, *especially* when unacceptable discourse coincides with criticism of the Foundation. In this case, we received requests from two list subscribers to moderate Dan. We did so, while underscoring that it was *not* for criticizing the Foundation.
I think I have something of a track record of supporting open debate and of encouraging and engaging with criticism of the Foundation. I think there is indeed plenty to criticize; the Foundation is far from flawless.
But people don't have to endure coarse language and vitriol at the same time. By all means, express disappointment, lack of confidence, suspicion, whatever, but do it in a civil manner. Dan can continue to do as well, of course. I have already let one message of this through moderation.
All that said, it would of course have been better if we had a couple of list-admins more, without ties to the Foundation, so perhaps it is time to recruit them. Is anyone interested?
A.
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 1:56 AM Todd Allen toddmallen@gmail.com wrote:
Erm, wait. He said what, "fart"?
It's not a particularly good look for a WMF employee to be moderating someone critiquing the WMF, especially when, while their statement may have been strongly worded, it used pretty mild language. This should either be undone, or at least decided upon by someone who doesn't work for WMF. That's a substantial conflict of interest.
Todd
On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 1:57 PM Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Wikimedians,
List subscriber Dan Szymborski has been placed under moderation, due to posts with unacceptable language.
I remind everyone that criticism is appropriate and welcome on this list, so long as it remains civil and respectful of the people involved.
Asaf (volunteer capacity) on behalf of Wikimedia-l list moderators -- Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Hello Asaf
I am a list administrator in at least 5 Wikimedia mailing lists and I believe I have the relevant experience in this area.
I'd be happy to help out if you need more hands.
Regards
Isaac
On Thu, 10 Sep 2020, 10:08 Asaf Bartov, asaf.bartov@gmail.com wrote:
Indeed, there is a potential conflict of interest here. This is why I strongly tend to leniency, *especially* when unacceptable discourse coincides with criticism of the Foundation. In this case, we received requests from two list subscribers to moderate Dan. We did so, while underscoring that it was *not* for criticizing the Foundation.
I think I have something of a track record of supporting open debate and of encouraging and engaging with criticism of the Foundation. I think there is indeed plenty to criticize; the Foundation is far from flawless.
But people don't have to endure coarse language and vitriol at the same time. By all means, express disappointment, lack of confidence, suspicion, whatever, but do it in a civil manner. Dan can continue to do as well, of course. I have already let one message of this through moderation.
All that said, it would of course have been better if we had a couple of list-admins more, without ties to the Foundation, so perhaps it is time to recruit them. Is anyone interested?
A.
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 1:56 AM Todd Allen toddmallen@gmail.com wrote:
Erm, wait. He said what, "fart"?
It's not a particularly good look for a WMF employee to be moderating someone critiquing the WMF, especially when, while their statement may
have
been strongly worded, it used pretty mild language. This should either be undone, or at least decided upon by someone who doesn't work for WMF. That's a substantial conflict of interest.
Todd
On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 1:57 PM Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com
wrote:
Dear Wikimedians,
List subscriber Dan Szymborski has been placed under moderation, due to posts with unacceptable language.
I remind everyone that criticism is appropriate and welcome on this
list,
so long as it remains civil and respectful of the people involved.
Asaf (volunteer capacity) on behalf of Wikimedia-l list moderators -- Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
I'd be happy to help out. I have set up and managed several lists related to our Wikimedia LGBT+ community.
As a well-known commentator about the WMF and safe spaces, including running a global RFC that held to account a WMF board member, it might add a useful perceived balance to moderation rather than everyone being "vanilla flavour".
Fae
On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 at 10:08, Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com wrote:
Indeed, there is a potential conflict of interest here. This is why I strongly tend to leniency, *especially* when unacceptable discourse coincides with criticism of the Foundation. In this case, we received requests from two list subscribers to moderate Dan. We did so, while underscoring that it was *not* for criticizing the Foundation.
I think I have something of a track record of supporting open debate and of encouraging and engaging with criticism of the Foundation. I think there is indeed plenty to criticize; the Foundation is far from flawless.
But people don't have to endure coarse language and vitriol at the same time. By all means, express disappointment, lack of confidence, suspicion, whatever, but do it in a civil manner. Dan can continue to do as well, of course. I have already let one message of this through moderation.
All that said, it would of course have been better if we had a couple of list-admins more, without ties to the Foundation, so perhaps it is time to recruit them. Is anyone interested?
A.
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 1:56 AM Todd Allen toddmallen@gmail.com wrote:
Erm, wait. He said what, "fart"?
It's not a particularly good look for a WMF employee to be moderating someone critiquing the WMF, especially when, while their statement may have been strongly worded, it used pretty mild language. This should either be undone, or at least decided upon by someone who doesn't work for WMF. That's a substantial conflict of interest.
Todd
On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 1:57 PM Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Wikimedians,
List subscriber Dan Szymborski has been placed under moderation, due to posts with unacceptable language.
I remind everyone that criticism is appropriate and welcome on this list, so long as it remains civil and respectful of the people involved.
Asaf (volunteer capacity) on behalf of Wikimedia-l list moderators -- Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Asaf, What are the criteria for eligibility as moderator for this list? Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Asaf Bartov Sent: 10 September 2020 11:07 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice
Indeed, there is a potential conflict of interest here. This is why I strongly tend to leniency, *especially* when unacceptable discourse coincides with criticism of the Foundation. In this case, we received requests from two list subscribers to moderate Dan. We did so, while underscoring that it was *not* for criticizing the Foundation.
I think I have something of a track record of supporting open debate and of encouraging and engaging with criticism of the Foundation. I think there is indeed plenty to criticize; the Foundation is far from flawless.
But people don't have to endure coarse language and vitriol at the same time. By all means, express disappointment, lack of confidence, suspicion, whatever, but do it in a civil manner. Dan can continue to do as well, of course. I have already let one message of this through moderation.
All that said, it would of course have been better if we had a couple of list-admins more, without ties to the Foundation, so perhaps it is time to recruit them. Is anyone interested?
A.
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 1:56 AM Todd Allen toddmallen@gmail.com wrote:
Erm, wait. He said what, "fart"?
It's not a particularly good look for a WMF employee to be moderating someone critiquing the WMF, especially when, while their statement may
have
been strongly worded, it used pretty mild language. This should either be undone, or at least decided upon by someone who doesn't work for WMF. That's a substantial conflict of interest.
Todd
On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 1:57 PM Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Wikimedians,
List subscriber Dan Szymborski has been placed under moderation, due to posts with unacceptable language.
I remind everyone that criticism is appropriate and welcome on this
list,
so long as it remains civil and respectful of the people involved.
Asaf (volunteer capacity) on behalf of Wikimedia-l list moderators -- Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
I would say first and foremost, good judgment. As measured by the person's track record on-wiki and on this list.
Preferring to err on the side of caution, people under community sanctions, or who have themselves been moderated for on-list misconduct, need not apply.
A.
On Thu, 10 Sep 2020, 12:58 Peter Southwood peter.southwood@telkomsa.net wrote:
Asaf, What are the criteria for eligibility as moderator for this list? Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Asaf Bartov Sent: 10 September 2020 11:07 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice
Indeed, there is a potential conflict of interest here. This is why I strongly tend to leniency, *especially* when unacceptable discourse coincides with criticism of the Foundation. In this case, we received requests from two list subscribers to moderate Dan. We did so, while underscoring that it was *not* for criticizing the Foundation.
I think I have something of a track record of supporting open debate and of encouraging and engaging with criticism of the Foundation. I think there is indeed plenty to criticize; the Foundation is far from flawless.
But people don't have to endure coarse language and vitriol at the same time. By all means, express disappointment, lack of confidence, suspicion, whatever, but do it in a civil manner. Dan can continue to do as well, of course. I have already let one message of this through moderation.
All that said, it would of course have been better if we had a couple of list-admins more, without ties to the Foundation, so perhaps it is time to recruit them. Is anyone interested?
A.
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 1:56 AM Todd Allen toddmallen@gmail.com wrote:
Erm, wait. He said what, "fart"?
It's not a particularly good look for a WMF employee to be moderating someone critiquing the WMF, especially when, while their statement may
have
been strongly worded, it used pretty mild language. This should either be undone, or at least decided upon by someone who doesn't work for WMF. That's a substantial conflict of interest.
Todd
On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 1:57 PM Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com
wrote:
Dear Wikimedians,
List subscriber Dan Szymborski has been placed under moderation, due to posts with unacceptable language.
I remind everyone that criticism is appropriate and welcome on this
list,
so long as it remains civil and respectful of the people involved.
Asaf (volunteer capacity) on behalf of Wikimedia-l list moderators -- Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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Hi Asaf,
Who are the list mods? Unfortunately, this is not made clear at https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
In line with what you say here, a track record that, say, included deliberately misusing administrator or checkuser tools on Wikimedia projects, should certainly be considered a trust problem.
Thanks, Fae
On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 at 11:56, Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com wrote:
I would say first and foremost, good judgment. As measured by the person's track record on-wiki and on this list.
Preferring to err on the side of caution, people under community sanctions, or who have themselves been moderated for on-list misconduct, need not apply.
A.
On Thu, 10 Sep 2020, 12:58 Peter Southwood peter.southwood@telkomsa.net wrote:
Asaf, What are the criteria for eligibility as moderator for this list? Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Asaf Bartov Sent: 10 September 2020 11:07 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice
Indeed, there is a potential conflict of interest here. This is why I strongly tend to leniency, *especially* when unacceptable discourse coincides with criticism of the Foundation. In this case, we received requests from two list subscribers to moderate Dan. We did so, while underscoring that it was *not* for criticizing the Foundation.
I think I have something of a track record of supporting open debate and of encouraging and engaging with criticism of the Foundation. I think there is indeed plenty to criticize; the Foundation is far from flawless.
But people don't have to endure coarse language and vitriol at the same time. By all means, express disappointment, lack of confidence, suspicion, whatever, but do it in a civil manner. Dan can continue to do as well, of course. I have already let one message of this through moderation.
All that said, it would of course have been better if we had a couple of list-admins more, without ties to the Foundation, so perhaps it is time to recruit them. Is anyone interested?
A.
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 1:56 AM Todd Allen toddmallen@gmail.com wrote:
Erm, wait. He said what, "fart"?
It's not a particularly good look for a WMF employee to be moderating someone critiquing the WMF, especially when, while their statement may
have
been strongly worded, it used pretty mild language. This should either be undone, or at least decided upon by someone who doesn't work for WMF. That's a substantial conflict of interest.
Todd
On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 1:57 PM Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com
wrote:
Dear Wikimedians,
List subscriber Dan Szymborski has been placed under moderation, due to posts with unacceptable language.
I remind everyone that criticism is appropriate and welcome on this
list,
so long as it remains civil and respectful of the people involved.
Asaf (volunteer capacity) on behalf of Wikimedia-l list moderators -- Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com
On Thu, 10 Sep 2020, 14:05 Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Who are the list mods?
The current list admins are John Vandenberg, Shani Evenstein, and I.
Unfortunately, this is not made clear at
That is indeed unfortunate! It *used* to list explicit email addresses of the admins. I'll see if there's any setting that can be changed.
In line with what you say here, a track record that, say, included
deliberately misusing administrator or checkuser tools on Wikimedia projects, should certainly be considered a trust problem.
Agreed.
A.
Thanks, Fae
On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 at 11:56, Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com wrote:
I would say first and foremost, good judgment. As measured by the
person's
track record on-wiki and on this list.
Preferring to err on the side of caution, people under community
sanctions,
or who have themselves been moderated for on-list misconduct, need not apply.
A.
On Thu, 10 Sep 2020, 12:58 Peter Southwood <peter.southwood@telkomsa.net
wrote:
Asaf, What are the criteria for eligibility as moderator for this list? Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Asaf Bartov Sent: 10 September 2020 11:07 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice
Indeed, there is a potential conflict of interest here. This is why I strongly tend to leniency, *especially* when unacceptable discourse coincides with criticism of the Foundation. In this case, we received requests from two list subscribers to moderate Dan. We did so, while underscoring that it was *not* for criticizing the Foundation.
I think I have something of a track record of supporting open debate
and of
encouraging and engaging with criticism of the Foundation. I think
there
is indeed plenty to criticize; the Foundation is far from flawless.
But people don't have to endure coarse language and vitriol at the same time. By all means, express disappointment, lack of confidence,
suspicion,
whatever, but do it in a civil manner. Dan can continue to do as
well, of
course. I have already let one message of this through moderation.
All that said, it would of course have been better if we had a couple
of
list-admins more, without ties to the Foundation, so perhaps it is
time to
recruit them. Is anyone interested?
A.
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 1:56 AM Todd Allen toddmallen@gmail.com
wrote:
Erm, wait. He said what, "fart"?
It's not a particularly good look for a WMF employee to be moderating someone critiquing the WMF, especially when, while their statement
may
have
been strongly worded, it used pretty mild language. This should
either be
undone, or at least decided upon by someone who doesn't work for WMF. That's a substantial conflict of interest.
Todd
On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 1:57 PM Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com
wrote:
Dear Wikimedians,
List subscriber Dan Szymborski has been placed under moderation,
due to
posts with unacceptable language.
I remind everyone that criticism is appropriate and welcome on this
list,
so long as it remains civil and respectful of the people involved.
Asaf (volunteer capacity) on behalf of Wikimedia-l list moderators -- Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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Hi,
On 2020-09-10 04:34, Asaf Bartov wrote:
On Thu, 10 Sep 2020, 14:05 Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Who are the list mods?
The current list admins are John Vandenberg, Shani Evenstein, and I.
Unfortunately, this is not made clear at https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
That is indeed unfortunate! It *used* to list explicit email addresses of the admins. I'll see if there's any setting that can be changed.
This change was intentional, see https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T150164 (presumably there's some mailman config to toggle it if people really wanted).
I documented the list admins on wiki: https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikimedia-l&type=revision&diff=20447613&oldid=18927728. Maybe consider adding it to the list description?
-- Legoktm
On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 7:46 AM Kunal Mehta legoktm@member.fsf.org wrote:
That is indeed unfortunate! It *used* to list explicit email addresses of the admins. I'll see if there's any setting that can be changed.
This change was intentional, see https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T150164 (presumably there's some mailman config to toggle it if people really wanted).
Ah yes, thank you.
I documented the list admins on wiki:
< https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikimedia-l&type=revision&a...
.
Maybe consider adding it to the list description?
Thank you, done.
A.
Good judgement is often such a subjective thing, Everyone thinks they have it. A bit like the Dunning-Kruger effect. Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Asaf Bartov Sent: 10 September 2020 12:55 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice
I would say first and foremost, good judgment. As measured by the person's track record on-wiki and on this list.
Preferring to err on the side of caution, people under community sanctions, or who have themselves been moderated for on-list misconduct, need not apply.
A.
On Thu, 10 Sep 2020, 12:58 Peter Southwood peter.southwood@telkomsa.net wrote:
Asaf, What are the criteria for eligibility as moderator for this list? Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Asaf Bartov Sent: 10 September 2020 11:07 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice
Indeed, there is a potential conflict of interest here. This is why I strongly tend to leniency, *especially* when unacceptable discourse coincides with criticism of the Foundation. In this case, we received requests from two list subscribers to moderate Dan. We did so, while underscoring that it was *not* for criticizing the Foundation.
I think I have something of a track record of supporting open debate and
of
encouraging and engaging with criticism of the Foundation. I think there is indeed plenty to criticize; the Foundation is far from flawless.
But people don't have to endure coarse language and vitriol at the same time. By all means, express disappointment, lack of confidence,
suspicion,
whatever, but do it in a civil manner. Dan can continue to do as well, of course. I have already let one message of this through moderation.
All that said, it would of course have been better if we had a couple of list-admins more, without ties to the Foundation, so perhaps it is time to recruit them. Is anyone interested?
A.
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 1:56 AM Todd Allen toddmallen@gmail.com wrote:
Erm, wait. He said what, "fart"?
It's not a particularly good look for a WMF employee to be moderating someone critiquing the WMF, especially when, while their statement may
have
been strongly worded, it used pretty mild language. This should either
be
undone, or at least decided upon by someone who doesn't work for WMF. That's a substantial conflict of interest.
Todd
On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 1:57 PM Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com
wrote:
Dear Wikimedians,
List subscriber Dan Szymborski has been placed under moderation, due
to
posts with unacceptable language.
I remind everyone that criticism is appropriate and welcome on this
list,
so long as it remains civil and respectful of the people involved.
Asaf (volunteer capacity) on behalf of Wikimedia-l list moderators -- Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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-- Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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one measure of good judgement would those decline the opportunity to be a list administrator :D
On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 at 19:41, Peter Southwood peter.southwood@telkomsa.net wrote:
Good judgement is often such a subjective thing, Everyone thinks they have it. A bit like the Dunning-Kruger effect. Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Asaf Bartov Sent: 10 September 2020 12:55 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice
I would say first and foremost, good judgment. As measured by the person's track record on-wiki and on this list.
Preferring to err on the side of caution, people under community sanctions, or who have themselves been moderated for on-list misconduct, need not apply.
A.
On Thu, 10 Sep 2020, 12:58 Peter Southwood peter.southwood@telkomsa.net wrote:
Asaf, What are the criteria for eligibility as moderator for this list? Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Asaf Bartov Sent: 10 September 2020 11:07 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice
Indeed, there is a potential conflict of interest here. This is why I strongly tend to leniency, *especially* when unacceptable discourse coincides with criticism of the Foundation. In this case, we received requests from two list subscribers to moderate Dan. We did so, while underscoring that it was *not* for criticizing the Foundation.
I think I have something of a track record of supporting open debate and
of
encouraging and engaging with criticism of the Foundation. I think there is indeed plenty to criticize; the Foundation is far from flawless.
But people don't have to endure coarse language and vitriol at the same time. By all means, express disappointment, lack of confidence,
suspicion,
whatever, but do it in a civil manner. Dan can continue to do as well,
of
course. I have already let one message of this through moderation.
All that said, it would of course have been better if we had a couple of list-admins more, without ties to the Foundation, so perhaps it is time
to
recruit them. Is anyone interested?
A.
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 1:56 AM Todd Allen toddmallen@gmail.com wrote:
Erm, wait. He said what, "fart"?
It's not a particularly good look for a WMF employee to be moderating someone critiquing the WMF, especially when, while their statement may
have
been strongly worded, it used pretty mild language. This should either
be
undone, or at least decided upon by someone who doesn't work for WMF. That's a substantial conflict of interest.
Todd
On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 1:57 PM Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com
wrote:
Dear Wikimedians,
List subscriber Dan Szymborski has been placed under moderation, due
to
posts with unacceptable language.
I remind everyone that criticism is appropriate and welcome on this
list,
so long as it remains civil and respectful of the people involved.
Asaf (volunteer capacity) on behalf of Wikimedia-l list moderators -- Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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You read my mind... P
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Gnangarra Sent: 10 September 2020 13:50 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice
one measure of good judgement would those decline the opportunity to be a list administrator :D
On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 at 19:41, Peter Southwood peter.southwood@telkomsa.net wrote:
Good judgement is often such a subjective thing, Everyone thinks they have it. A bit like the Dunning-Kruger effect. Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Asaf Bartov Sent: 10 September 2020 12:55 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice
I would say first and foremost, good judgment. As measured by the person's track record on-wiki and on this list.
Preferring to err on the side of caution, people under community
sanctions,
or who have themselves been moderated for on-list misconduct, need not apply.
A.
On Thu, 10 Sep 2020, 12:58 Peter Southwood peter.southwood@telkomsa.net wrote:
Asaf, What are the criteria for eligibility as moderator for this list? Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Asaf Bartov Sent: 10 September 2020 11:07 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice
Indeed, there is a potential conflict of interest here. This is why I strongly tend to leniency, *especially* when unacceptable discourse coincides with criticism of the Foundation. In this case, we received requests from two list subscribers to moderate Dan. We did so, while underscoring that it was *not* for criticizing the Foundation.
I think I have something of a track record of supporting open debate and
of
encouraging and engaging with criticism of the Foundation. I think
there
is indeed plenty to criticize; the Foundation is far from flawless.
But people don't have to endure coarse language and vitriol at the same time. By all means, express disappointment, lack of confidence,
suspicion,
whatever, but do it in a civil manner. Dan can continue to do as well,
of
course. I have already let one message of this through moderation.
All that said, it would of course have been better if we had a couple of list-admins more, without ties to the Foundation, so perhaps it is time
to
recruit them. Is anyone interested?
A.
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 1:56 AM Todd Allen toddmallen@gmail.com wrote:
Erm, wait. He said what, "fart"?
It's not a particularly good look for a WMF employee to be moderating someone critiquing the WMF, especially when, while their statement may
have
been strongly worded, it used pretty mild language. This should either
be
undone, or at least decided upon by someone who doesn't work for WMF. That's a substantial conflict of interest.
Todd
On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 1:57 PM Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com
wrote:
Dear Wikimedians,
List subscriber Dan Szymborski has been placed under moderation, due
to
posts with unacceptable language.
I remind everyone that criticism is appropriate and welcome on this
list,
so long as it remains civil and respectful of the people involved.
Asaf (volunteer capacity) on behalf of Wikimedia-l list moderators -- Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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Is there a record somewhere of what unacceptable language was used and against what standard it was judged to be unacceptable? Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Asaf Bartov Sent: 09 September 2020 21:57 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice
Dear Wikimedians,
List subscriber Dan Szymborski has been placed under moderation, due to posts with unacceptable language.
I remind everyone that criticism is appropriate and welcome on this list, so long as it remains civil and respectful of the people involved.
Asaf (volunteer capacity) on behalf of Wikimedia-l list moderators
Is the objection to the words he used or to the way he used them? Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Asaf Bartov Sent: 09 September 2020 21:57 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice
Dear Wikimedians,
List subscriber Dan Szymborski has been placed under moderation, due to posts with unacceptable language.
I remind everyone that criticism is appropriate and welcome on this list, so long as it remains civil and respectful of the people involved.
Asaf (volunteer capacity) on behalf of Wikimedia-l list moderators
Hello,
As one of the list subscribers who contacted the list moderators about the messages in question, please let me second the sentiment that this list should welcome discourse that is honest and frank while remaining constructive and civil. Being subscribed to this list can be stressful for some of us at times, so please keep that in mind when contributing. Thank you, and kind regards,
Lukas
--
Dr. Lukas Mezger Vorsitzender des Präsidiums / chair of the Supervisory Board
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963 Berlin Tel. (030) 219 158 260 – (0151) 268 63 931 http://wikimedia.de
Bleiben Sie auf dem neuesten Stand! Aktuelle Nachrichten und spannende Geschichten rund um Wikimedia, Wikipedia und Freies Wissen im Newsletter: Zur Anmeldung https://www.wikimedia.de/newsletter/.
Stellen Sie sich eine Welt vor, in der jeder Mensch an der Menge allen Wissens frei teilhaben kann. Helfen Sie uns dabei! http://spenden.wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207
Am Do., 10. Sept. 2020 um 18:19 Uhr schrieb Peter Southwood < peter.southwood@telkomsa.net>:
Is the objection to the words he used or to the way he used them? Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Asaf Bartov Sent: 09 September 2020 21:57 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice
Dear Wikimedians,
List subscriber Dan Szymborski has been placed under moderation, due to posts with unacceptable language.
I remind everyone that criticism is appropriate and welcome on this list, so long as it remains civil and respectful of the people involved.
Asaf (volunteer capacity) on behalf of Wikimedia-l list moderators -- Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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I'd like to thank the list administrators for: * their transparency in handling this moderation request * the clarity in describing how to and how not to criticize * for not banning Dan but patiently giving clear guidelines
While I don't find Dan's language as offensive as to be banworthy, it is a bit stressful, therefore I appreciate that a clear stance is taken to steer the discussion towards a more relaxed tone. I also appreciate that it's made clear it's not the content but the form which is too much. In my experience such openness is a rare occurrence and serves as an example of how I hope the UCoC will be handled.
Aron
Hi Lukas,
I appreciate you opening up on this. I have a hard time following the line of argument. I can appreciate that it can be stressful to see someone generalize opposition to this extent, and I dont think it is helpful to the conversation, because it basically rejects all solutions out of hand. I would have contributed that myself, if others didn't beat me to the punch. However, that is more due to the content of the opinion, than to how it's being phrased. I don't see how a different phrasing would have reduced that stress significantly, other than by packaging it with various phrases that express appreciation that was not meant.
I would love us to be more gentle, but at the same time it is also important to recognize diversity in character, expression and opinion. If we want to take a universal code of conduct seriously, we also need to take responsibility in restraining ourselves in 'calling the cops' each time someone tiptoes across the line. I would encourage you to apply the approach expressed in various ancient texts: if someone crosses the line, first approach them privately to correct them. If that does not work, include someone else in this conversation, and if all else fails, bring it up publicly (or in this case: bring it to the admins). The fact that it is possible to place someone on moderation, does not mean it is the most appropriate solution.
But that's just my thoughts.
Lodewijk
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 11:30 AM Lukas Mezger lukas.mezger@wikimedia.de wrote:
Hello,
As one of the list subscribers who contacted the list moderators about the messages in question, please let me second the sentiment that this list should welcome discourse that is honest and frank while remaining constructive and civil. Being subscribed to this list can be stressful for some of us at times, so please keep that in mind when contributing. Thank you, and kind regards,
Lukas
--
Dr. Lukas Mezger Vorsitzender des Präsidiums / chair of the Supervisory Board
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963 Berlin Tel. (030) 219 158 260 – (0151) 268 63 931 http://wikimedia.de
Bleiben Sie auf dem neuesten Stand! Aktuelle Nachrichten und spannende Geschichten rund um Wikimedia, Wikipedia und Freies Wissen im Newsletter: Zur Anmeldung https://www.wikimedia.de/newsletter/.
Stellen Sie sich eine Welt vor, in der jeder Mensch an der Menge allen Wissens frei teilhaben kann. Helfen Sie uns dabei! http://spenden.wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207
Am Do., 10. Sept. 2020 um 18:19 Uhr schrieb Peter Southwood < peter.southwood@telkomsa.net>:
Is the objection to the words he used or to the way he used them? Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Asaf Bartov Sent: 09 September 2020 21:57 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice
Dear Wikimedians,
List subscriber Dan Szymborski has been placed under moderation, due to posts with unacceptable language.
I remind everyone that criticism is appropriate and welcome on this list, so long as it remains civil and respectful of the people involved.
Asaf (volunteer capacity) on behalf of Wikimedia-l list moderators -- Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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Hi,
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 4:08 AM effe iets anders effeietsanders@gmail.com wrote:
I would love us to be more gentle, but at the same time it is also important to recognize diversity in character, expression and opinion.
Well, precisely? :)
"To recognize diversity in character, expression and opinion" is crucial. Recognizing privilege is just as important.
There is abundant evidence about strong and disrespectful language driving away those who actually would contribute diversity in a conversation. For one (usually privileged) participant that goes through moderation after ignoring warnings, how many (usually less or no privileged) disengage and leave silently to avoid or boycott disrespectful behavior? That is where the big loss in diversity lies.
One good reason to really care about high standards of respect and civility is precisely to increase the diversity of our movement. Most of our "open" discussion channels are not open at all. Full participation in these channels is in practice quite exclusive. Those who thrive are privileged persons who can handle an aggressive communication style or even enjoy it. Wikimedia-l is no exception, and the UCoC thread is a typical example.
More and more contributors are taking action to change this trend, and this is one of the best things happening right now in our movement.
This is all so predictably tiresome. Any attempt to center a discussion forum on its intended purpose is hijacked by people outraged that they are deprived of their own personal soapboxes.
I see this matter is spilling over into multiple threads. I propose that objectors start a new thread to discuss the relative merits of flatulent language and keep all the discussion there to prevent it from stinking up the rest of the forum. Please limit yourself to one long message and make sure you firmly expel this issue from your systems so we can all collectively move forward.
As long as people are going to continue to talk about me and imply that I'm actually *harassing* people, then I feel I have a right to defend myself.
No, clear warnings weren't given. I compared the action of a *non-profit board* tangentially to *flatulence* and I was immediately talked down to and lectured at in a patronizing fashion. Nothing was explained, it was just supposed to be self-evident that it *was* offensive and it *was* across a line without a single shred of an argument that covered rules or policy.
I brought up that the UCoC standard is a reasonable person standard, not a "most offended person" standard and this was never addressed. Instead, I was demeaned by being placed on a special moderation protocol. Asaf Bartov threatened me that if I continued to defend myself -- even as people continued to discuss me -- that *I'm* hijacking the thread. Jackie Koerner spoke at me in an incredibly condescending, arrogant manner, presuming it was their place to educate me so I could "learn" what I did.
I asked Asaf if Koerner was given a similar warning for a very long, smug, patronizing screed about me as on-topic. Bartov reiterated that nobody else was given any warning about off-topic communication. Only *I* am not allowed to talk about *my* apparent offense.
Now "other cultures" is considered an excuse for insults far more direct than I made with myself as the target. People like Allen and Southwood ask for specifics and are brushed off with "well, it just is." You want to talk about other cultures, but then don't respect our culture, where it's extremely offensive to accuse people without evidence, start with the assumption that the person whose opinion you don't like is in the wrong, and hold out people for mockery.
I intentionally didn't single-out who I think the worst players on the WMF board are. I intentionally, when tweeting this conversation and when exchanging DMs and emails with colleagues in tech, journalism, and related entities that make donations to Wikimedia, redact all the names and made it clear that my beef is with the WMF and that anyone who tries to harass any of these people are not on my side. I've even --surprisingly -- gotten a few emails from administrators at English Wikipedia who I don't even know, giving me support though they're concerned if they speak up, everything will blow up even more and they will be subject to reprisals from WMF.
I daresay I've shown the individuals referenced here with far more respect than has been shown me. I don't have any desire to "educate" people to the "correct" opinion as a few of you do. I'm just expressing my opinion on how the WMF board has conducted itself, I don't seek to lecture Koerner into seeing their error of their ways or have any desire to prevent Bartov from effectively responding to criticism as they presume to do for me.
If you enter into this conversation thinking things as harmless as comparisons of the WMF to a fart resulting in severe penalties are things a UCoC will successfully bring to the communities, you are dead wrong. Given the history of communications "at" English Wikipedia from the WMF and various Wikimedia-connected individuals causing months of turmoil, I'm fairly certain that the target of disdainful lecturing should be targeted at the mirror, not me.
Cheers,
Dan
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 8:04 AM Quim Gil qgil@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hi,
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 4:08 AM effe iets anders <effeietsanders@gmail.com
wrote:
I would love us to be more gentle, but at the same time it is also important to recognize diversity in character, expression and opinion.
Well, precisely? :)
"To recognize diversity in character, expression and opinion" is crucial. Recognizing privilege is just as important.
There is abundant evidence about strong and disrespectful language driving away those who actually would contribute diversity in a conversation. For one (usually privileged) participant that goes through moderation after ignoring warnings, how many (usually less or no privileged) disengage and leave silently to avoid or boycott disrespectful behavior? That is where the big loss in diversity lies.
One good reason to really care about high standards of respect and civility is precisely to increase the diversity of our movement. Most of our "open" discussion channels are not open at all. Full participation in these channels is in practice quite exclusive. Those who thrive are privileged persons who can handle an aggressive communication style or even enjoy it. Wikimedia-l is no exception, and the UCoC thread is a typical example.
More and more contributors are taking action to change this trend, and this is one of the best things happening right now in our movement.
-- Quim Gil (he/him) Senior Manager of Community Relations @ Wikimedia Foundation https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Qgil-WMF _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 6:50 PM Dan Szymborski dszymborski@gmail.com wrote:
As long as people are going to continue to talk about me and imply that I'm actually *harassing* people, then I feel I have a right to defend myself.
Nobody ever denied you that right.
I brought up that the UCoC standard is a reasonable person standard, not a
"most offended person" standard and this was never addressed. Instead, I was demeaned by being placed on a special moderation protocol. Asaf Bartov threatened me that if I continued to defend myself -- even as people continued to discuss me -- that *I'm* hijacking the thread.
What I actually wrote to you, and I quote, was:
"I also must insist that you not hijack this thread, which is for discussing the draft UCoC. If you see value in bringing up your concerns on those other matters on this list, please do so on separate threads. Since you have expressed the opinion that this UCoC draft is illegitimate, I suggest there is really no reason for you to post further on this thread, leaving it for those who *would* like to discuss it."
I then did indeed threaten that *if you continue to disrupt the UCoC thread*, your messages won't be let through. As you can see, your latest letter, since it was no longer disrupting the UCoC thread, *was* let through.
I asked Asaf if Koerner was given a similar warning for a very long, smug,
patronizing screed about me as on-topic. Bartov reiterated that nobody else was given any warning about off-topic communication. Only *I* am not allowed to talk about *my* apparent offense.
Since now you quote a question you asked privately, I will quote the answer I gave you:
==================== "No, I did not warn Ms. Koerner about thread hijacking, because the very problem with thread hijacking is that once the change of topic is made, people legitimately want to respond. I have not observed Ms. Koerner *initiating* a thread hijack.
I do encourage you to continue contributing on the list, including in criticizing whatever flaws you find in the Foundation's actions. I certainly find such flaws myself.
But again, as a professional, perhaps you can be less ornery and more measured in expressing the *substance* of your concerns. It would at the very least be no less effective, and perhaps more so." ====================
A.
Hi All,
I just wanted to give my opinion on how to make things more civil and gentle in general, and also to add clarity to the threads. As a non-English native speaker, there are many things I consider do not help at all in written discussions in general in any given list, most of the time when these things are done, then everything turns challenging, complicated, or sadly blatantly uncivil:
1) Irony 2) Jokes 3) Long and numerous paragraphs (extensive writing) 4) Acronyms
I believe these things are very important to pay attention too and should be avoided, no matter what we are feeling or thinking about any specific subject. Not doing so regularly leads to conflictive states, and paying attention to the latter and restraining from doing so normally contributes to open discussions.
I believe also that helps a lot to reduce: 5) Sayings and expressions
Maybe all this resonates with someone, and if not, it's also ok :]
Cheers!
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 1:00 PM Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 6:50 PM Dan Szymborski dszymborski@gmail.com wrote:
As long as people are going to continue to talk about me and imply that
I'm
actually *harassing* people, then I feel I have a right to defend myself.
Nobody ever denied you that right.
I brought up that the UCoC standard is a reasonable person standard, not a
"most offended person" standard and this was never addressed. Instead, I was demeaned by being placed on a special moderation protocol. Asaf
Bartov
threatened me that if I continued to defend myself -- even as people continued to discuss me -- that *I'm* hijacking the thread.
What I actually wrote to you, and I quote, was:
"I also must insist that you not hijack this thread, which is for discussing the draft UCoC. If you see value in bringing up your concerns on those other matters on this list, please do so on separate threads. Since you have expressed the opinion that this UCoC draft is illegitimate, I suggest there is really no reason for you to post further on this thread, leaving it for those who *would* like to discuss it."
I then did indeed threaten that *if you continue to disrupt the UCoC thread*, your messages won't be let through. As you can see, your latest letter, since it was no longer disrupting the UCoC thread, *was* let through.
I asked Asaf if Koerner was given a similar warning for a very long, smug,
patronizing screed about me as on-topic. Bartov reiterated that nobody
else
was given any warning about off-topic communication. Only *I* am not allowed to talk about *my* apparent offense.
Since now you quote a question you asked privately, I will quote the answer I gave you:
==================== "No, I did not warn Ms. Koerner about thread hijacking, because the very problem with thread hijacking is that once the change of topic is made, people legitimately want to respond. I have not observed Ms. Koerner *initiating* a thread hijack.
I do encourage you to continue contributing on the list, including in criticizing whatever flaws you find in the Foundation's actions. I certainly find such flaws myself.
But again, as a professional, perhaps you can be less ornery and more measured in expressing the *substance* of your concerns. It would at the very least be no less effective, and perhaps more so." ====================
A.
Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Unfortunately I think all these points are valid. These behavious do not improve communication for many of us. There seems to be a choice between freedom of expression and effective communication in a multicultural group. There is theoretically the option of asking for clarification, but it is often ignored. Sometimes bluntly refused, and sometimes claimed not to be necessary. Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Eduardo Testart Sent: 12 September 2020 22:45 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice
Hi All,
I just wanted to give my opinion on how to make things more civil and gentle in general, and also to add clarity to the threads. As a non-English native speaker, there are many things I consider do not help at all in written discussions in general in any given list, most of the time when these things are done, then everything turns challenging, complicated, or sadly blatantly uncivil:
1) Irony 2) Jokes 3) Long and numerous paragraphs (extensive writing) 4) Acronyms
I believe these things are very important to pay attention too and should be avoided, no matter what we are feeling or thinking about any specific subject. Not doing so regularly leads to conflictive states, and paying attention to the latter and restraining from doing so normally contributes to open discussions.
I believe also that helps a lot to reduce: 5) Sayings and expressions
Maybe all this resonates with someone, and if not, it's also ok :]
Cheers!
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 1:00 PM Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 6:50 PM Dan Szymborski dszymborski@gmail.com wrote:
As long as people are going to continue to talk about me and imply that
I'm
actually *harassing* people, then I feel I have a right to defend myself.
Nobody ever denied you that right.
I brought up that the UCoC standard is a reasonable person standard, not a
"most offended person" standard and this was never addressed. Instead, I was demeaned by being placed on a special moderation protocol. Asaf
Bartov
threatened me that if I continued to defend myself -- even as people continued to discuss me -- that *I'm* hijacking the thread.
What I actually wrote to you, and I quote, was:
"I also must insist that you not hijack this thread, which is for discussing the draft UCoC. If you see value in bringing up your concerns on those other matters on this list, please do so on separate threads. Since you have expressed the opinion that this UCoC draft is illegitimate, I suggest there is really no reason for you to post further on this thread, leaving it for those who *would* like to discuss it."
I then did indeed threaten that *if you continue to disrupt the UCoC thread*, your messages won't be let through. As you can see, your latest letter, since it was no longer disrupting the UCoC thread, *was* let through.
I asked Asaf if Koerner was given a similar warning for a very long, smug,
patronizing screed about me as on-topic. Bartov reiterated that nobody
else
was given any warning about off-topic communication. Only *I* am not allowed to talk about *my* apparent offense.
Since now you quote a question you asked privately, I will quote the answer I gave you:
==================== "No, I did not warn Ms. Koerner about thread hijacking, because the very problem with thread hijacking is that once the change of topic is made, people legitimately want to respond. I have not observed Ms. Koerner *initiating* a thread hijack.
I do encourage you to continue contributing on the list, including in criticizing whatever flaws you find in the Foundation's actions. I certainly find such flaws myself.
But again, as a professional, perhaps you can be less ornery and more measured in expressing the *substance* of your concerns. It would at the very least be no less effective, and perhaps more so." ====================
A.
Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
If we didn't want serious discussions to come to this mailing list, or have discussions on it taken seriously, this thread would so far be a great example for not doing so. Thankfully, it won't actually succeed in derailing the discussions.
- d.
Lukas, If you could explain exactly what your objection was, it lets all of us understand better where the line was drawn. That allows discussion to be focused on reality rather than speculation, which could get us closer to an acceptable code of conduct, instead of fuelling paranoia. Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Lukas Mezger Sent: 10 September 2020 20:30 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice
Hello,
As one of the list subscribers who contacted the list moderators about the messages in question, please let me second the sentiment that this list should welcome discourse that is honest and frank while remaining constructive and civil. Being subscribed to this list can be stressful for some of us at times, so please keep that in mind when contributing. Thank you, and kind regards,
Lukas
--
Dr. Lukas Mezger Vorsitzender des Präsidiums / chair of the Supervisory Board
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963 Berlin Tel. (030) 219 158 260 – (0151) 268 63 931 http://wikimedia.de
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Am Do., 10. Sept. 2020 um 18:19 Uhr schrieb Peter Southwood < peter.southwood@telkomsa.net>:
Is the objection to the words he used or to the way he used them? Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Asaf Bartov Sent: 09 September 2020 21:57 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice
Dear Wikimedians,
List subscriber Dan Szymborski has been placed under moderation, due to posts with unacceptable language.
I remind everyone that criticism is appropriate and welcome on this list, so long as it remains civil and respectful of the people involved.
Asaf (volunteer capacity) on behalf of Wikimedia-l list moderators -- Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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