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Chris Keating

11 Sep 2020 11 Sep '20

5:43 a.m.

Good morning everyone! There's a campaign(1) for nonprofits to disclose the salaries, or at least salary ranges, on job ads. An increasing body of evidence(2) shows that practices like not disclosing expected pay, and requiring applicants to disclose their current salary, is harmful to equity in the workplace. Not disclosing salaries affects pay levels within the organisation - because white men are usually relatively confident in negotiating their salaries upwards, so tend to end up with a better deal. It can also affect the diversity of candidates who apply. Candidates who have stronger networks within the industry they're moving into (again, more commonly white men with privileged social and educational backgrounds) also have clear expectations because they are 'in the know' about industry norms, while people who don't, find the lack of salary information a barrier to application. (After all, why take the time and effort to apply for a job when you have no idea how the likely pay compares to your current employment?) I know practices vary within the movement - I believe the WMF never mentions salaries on ads, and I don't know whether the range is disclosed to applicants or not - some chapters I know do advertise a salary. However, I'd urge all entities within the movement that hire staff to disclose the expected salary ranges for posts they are advertising, as part of their commitment to equality, diversity and inclusion. Thanks for reading, Chris (1): https://showthesalary.com/ (2): e.g. at https://showthesalary.com/resources/

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Jan Ainali

11 Sep 11 Sep

6:22 a.m.

This is a very interesting topic and I am intrigued by how the Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team has their salary models transparent on their website: https://www.hotosm.org/salaries Perhaps there is something to copy from that as well? /Jan Ainali Den fre 11 sep. 2020 kl 11:44 skrev Chris Keating < chriskeatingwiki(a)gmail.com>gt;:

...

Dan Garry (Deskana)

7 a.m.

Asking candidates for their current salary is prohibited in San Francisco as of July 2018 [1] which means that, as a San Francisco based organisation, the Foundation will undoubtedly not be doing this. To my knowledge, this wasn't done by the Foundation before either, but we can confidently state that it won't be done now. There are some complexities in disclosing salary ranges for the Foundation. One practice that can be used for encouraging diversity in candidate applications is to specify that a position is open to candidates with a wide range of experience and in all locations in the world, in which case the salary range posted will be so large that it will basically be meaningless. On the other hand, another good practice for encouraging diversity is to source internally for senior positions, which opens up more junior roles that can be sourced externally, in which case a salary range can be more meaningful and helpful. It's hard to figure out what the right balance is. Regardless, more public transparency in salary banding would be good to see. Dan [1]: https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/legal-and-compliance/state-and-local… On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 at 10:44, Chris Keating <chriskeatingwiki(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Nathan

7:39 a.m.

Dan, Shouldn't two candidates for the same position for the same company get roughly the same salary, regardless of where they live? On Fri, Sep 11, 2020, 7:00 AM Dan Garry (Deskana) <djgwiki(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Good morning everyone! There's a campaign(1) for nonprofits to disclose the salaries, or at

least

salary ranges, on job ads. An increasing body of evidence(2) shows that practices like not

disclosing

expected pay, and requiring applicants to disclose their current salary,

harmful to equity in the workplace. Not disclosing salaries affects pay levels within the organisation - because white men are usually relatively confident in negotiating their salaries upwards, so tend to end up with a better deal. It can also affect the diversity of candidates who apply. Candidates who have stronger networks within the industry they're moving into (again,

commonly white men with privileged social and educational backgrounds)

also

have clear expectations because they are 'in the know' about industry norms, while people who don't, find the lack of salary information a barrier to application. (After all, why take the time and effort to apply for a job when you have no idea how the likely pay compares to your

current

employment?) I know practices vary within the movement - I believe the WMF never mentions salaries on ads, and I don't know whether the range is disclosed to applicants or not - some chapters I know do advertise a salary.

However,

I'd urge all entities within the movement that hire staff to disclose the expected salary ranges for posts they are advertising, as part of their commitment to equality, diversity and inclusion. Thanks for reading, Chris (1): https://showthesalary.com/ (2): e.g. at https://showthesalary.com/resources/ _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Peter Southwood

7:45 a.m.

Should they? Their cost of living expenses may vary considerably. Cheers, Peter -----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Nathan Sent: 11 September 2020 13:39 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation and affiliates disclosing salaries on job ads & the effect of this on workplace equity Dan, Shouldn't two candidates for the same position for the same company get roughly the same salary, regardless of where they live? On Fri, Sep 11, 2020, 7:00 AM Dan Garry (Deskana) <djgwiki(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Foundation.

...

One practice that can be used for encouraging diversity in candidate applications is to specify that a position is open to candidates with a wide range of experience and in all locations in the world, in which case the salary range posted will be so large that it will basically be meaningless. On the other hand, another good practice for encouraging diversity is to source internally for senior positions, which opens up

...

junior roles that can be sourced externally, in which case a salary range can be more meaningful and helpful. It's hard to figure out what the right balance is. Regardless, more public transparency in salary banding would be good to see. Dan [1]:

https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/legal-and-compliance/state-and-local- updates/pages/san-francisco-bans-salary-history-questions.aspx

...

On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 at 10:44, Chris Keating <chriskeatingwiki(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Good morning everyone! There's a campaign(1) for nonprofits to disclose the salaries, or at

least

salary ranges, on job ads. An increasing body of evidence(2) shows that practices like not

disclosing

expected pay, and requiring applicants to disclose their current salary,

commonly white men with privileged social and educational backgrounds)

also > have clear expectations because they are 'in the know' about industry > norms, while people who don't, find the lack of salary information a > barrier to application. (After all, why take the time and effort to

apply

...

for a job when you have no idea how the likely pay compares to your

current > employment?) > > I know practices vary within the movement - I believe the WMF never > mentions salaries on ads, and I don't know whether the range is

disclosed

...

to applicants or not - some chapters I know do advertise a salary.

However, > I'd urge all entities within the movement that hire staff to disclose

the

...

expected salary ranges for posts they are advertising, as part of their commitment to equality, diversity and inclusion. Thanks for reading, Chris (1): https://showthesalary.com/ (2): e.g. at https://showthesalary.com/resources/ _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Nathan

8:10 a.m.

I'm sure it will vary considerably. Does that matter? When measuring internal equity, do we measure based on how expensive of a lifestyle each employee leads? On Fri, Sep 11, 2020, 7:46 AM Peter Southwood <peter.southwood(a)telkomsa.net> wrote:

...

Foundation.

junior roles that can be sourced externally, in which case a salary range can be more meaningful and helpful. It's hard to figure out what the

right

balance is. Regardless, more public transparency in salary banding would be good to see. Dan [1]:

https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/legal-and-compliance/state-and-local- updates/pages/san-francisco-bans-salary-history-questions.aspx <https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/legal-and-compliance/state-and-local-updates/pages/san-francisco-bans-salary-history-questions.aspx>

On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 at 10:44, Chris Keating <chriskeatingwiki(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Good morning everyone! There's a campaign(1) for nonprofits to disclose the salaries, or at

least

salary ranges, on job ads. An increasing body of evidence(2) shows that practices like not

disclosing > expected pay, and requiring applicants to disclose their current

salary,

is > harmful to equity in the workplace. > > Not disclosing salaries affects pay levels within the organisation - > because white men are usually relatively confident in negotiating their > salaries upwards, so tend to end up with a better deal. > > It can also affect the diversity of candidates who apply. Candidates

who

have stronger networks within the industry they're moving into (again,

commonly white men with privileged social and educational backgrounds)

apply

for a job when you have no idea how the likely pay compares to your

current > employment?) > > I know practices vary within the movement - I believe the WMF never > mentions salaries on ads, and I don't know whether the range is

disclosed

to applicants or not - some chapters I know do advertise a salary.

However, > I'd urge all entities within the movement that hire staff to disclose

the

_______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Peter Southwood

9:18 a.m.

On one side it would be nice to pay equal rate for equal work, on the other would be equal personal benefit for equal work. Then there is the economics of getting value for money, and the politics of diversity. It is a tricky issue. Cheers, P -----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Nathan Sent: 11 September 2020 14:10 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation and affiliates disclosing salaries on job ads & the effect of this on workplace equity I'm sure it will vary considerably. Does that matter? When measuring internal equity, do we measure based on how expensive of a lifestyle each employee leads? On Fri, Sep 11, 2020, 7:46 AM Peter Southwood <peter.southwood(a)telkomsa.net> wrote:

...

job ads & the effect of this on workplace equity Dan, Shouldn't two candidates for the same position for the same company get roughly the same salary, regardless of where they live? On Fri, Sep 11, 2020, 7:00 AM Dan Garry (Deskana) <djgwiki(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Asking candidates for their current salary is prohibited in San

Francisco

...

as of July 2018 [1] which means that, as a San Francisco based organisation, the Foundation will undoubtedly not be doing this. To my knowledge, this wasn't done by the Foundation before either, but we can confidently state that it won't be done now. There are some complexities in disclosing salary ranges for the

Foundation. > One practice that can be used for encouraging diversity in candidate > applications is to specify that a position is open to candidates with a > wide range of experience and in all locations in the world, in which

case

...

the salary range posted will be so large that it will basically be meaningless. On the other hand, another good practice for encouraging diversity is to source internally for senior positions, which opens up

more > junior roles that can be sourced externally, in which case a salary

range

...

can be more meaningful and helpful. It's hard to figure out what the

right

balance is. Regardless, more public transparency in salary banding would be good to see. Dan [1]:

https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/legal-and-compliance/state-and-local-

...

updates/pages/san-francisco-bans-salary-history-questions.aspx

<https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/legal-and-compliance/state-and-local -updates/pages/san-francisco-bans-salary-history-questions.aspx>

...

On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 at 10:44, Chris Keating <chriskeatingwiki(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Good morning everyone! There's a campaign(1) for nonprofits to disclose the salaries, or at

least

salary ranges, on job ads. An increasing body of evidence(2) shows that practices like not

disclosing > expected pay, and requiring applicants to disclose their current

salary, > is > > harmful to equity in the workplace. > > > > Not disclosing salaries affects pay levels within the organisation - > > because white men are usually relatively confident in negotiating

their

...

> salaries upwards, so tend to end up with a better deal. > > It can also affect the diversity of candidates who apply. Candidates

who

have stronger networks within the industry they're moving into (again,

commonly white men with privileged social and educational backgrounds)

apply

for a job when you have no idea how the likely pay compares to your

current > employment?) > > I know practices vary within the movement - I believe the WMF never > mentions salaries on ads, and I don't know whether the range is

disclosed

to applicants or not - some chapters I know do advertise a salary.

However, > I'd urge all entities within the movement that hire staff to disclose

the > > expected salary ranges for posts they are advertising, as part of

their

...

commitment to equality, diversity and inclusion. Thanks for reading, Chris (1): https://showthesalary.com/ (2): e.g. at https://showthesalary.com/resources/ _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Gnangarra

9:24 a.m.

I'd hope that the WMF when hiring people in what was considered third world or in areas of socially deprived wages that it would pay at least to US standards as a matter of principle that employees doing similar jobs should basically be treated equally regardless of location. That where the pay and conditions exceed the US the WMF should be ensuring that people there are being paid comparable salaries for the similar positions in that location, US wages and conditions arent the best for many of their positions but that should be no excuse for hiring people at lower conditions. Socially the biggest issue is the exploitation of cheap labour because companies can, the WMF should be doing better than that if truly believes in equality in the movement On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 at 20:11, Nathan <nawrich(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Francisco

case

more > junior roles that can be sourced externally, in which case a salary

range

can be more meaningful and helpful. It's hard to figure out what the

right

balance is. Regardless, more public transparency in salary banding would be good to see. Dan [1]:

https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/legal-and-compliance/state-and-local-

updates/pages/san-francisco-bans-salary-history-questions.aspx <

https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/legal-and-compliance/state-and-local…

> > On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 at 10:44, Chris Keating <

chriskeatingwiki(a)gmail.com>

wrote:

Good morning everyone! There's a campaign(1) for nonprofits to disclose the salaries, or at

least

salary ranges, on job ads. An increasing body of evidence(2) shows that practices like not

disclosing > expected pay, and requiring applicants to disclose their current

salary, > is > > harmful to equity in the workplace. > > > > Not disclosing salaries affects pay levels within the organisation - > > because white men are usually relatively confident in negotiating

their

> salaries upwards, so tend to end up with a better deal. > > It can also affect the diversity of candidates who apply. Candidates

who > > have stronger networks within the industry they're moving into

(again,

> more > > commonly white men with privileged social and educational

backgrounds)

apply

for a job when you have no idea how the likely pay compares to your

current > employment?) > > I know practices vary within the movement - I believe the WMF never > mentions salaries on ads, and I don't know whether the range is

disclosed

to applicants or not - some chapters I know do advertise a salary.

However, > I'd urge all entities within the movement that hire staff to disclose

the > > expected salary ranges for posts they are advertising, as part of

their

> > commitment to equality, diversity and inclusion. > > > > Thanks for reading, > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > (1): https://showthesalary.com/ > > (2): e.g. at https://showthesalary.com/resources/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe:

https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,

<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

-- GN. *Power of Diverse Collaboration* *Sharing knowledge brings people together* Wikimania Bangkok 2021 August hosted by ESEAP Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page My print shop: https://www.redbubble.com/people/Gnangarra/shop?asc=u

Gergő Tisza

11:05 a.m.

On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 6:25 AM Gnangarra <gnangarra(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

One could make the argument that the WMF contributes magnitudes more to global equity by its work on the Wikimedia mission than by paying staff members, so having half as many staff members for twice the wage in cheaper regions is an extremely poor trade-off for advancing equity. (Of course, by the same line of reasoning, San Francisco would be a highly questionable choice for headquarters.)

Dan Garry (Deskana)

12 Sep 12 Sep

12:37 p.m.

On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 at 12:39, Nathan <nawrich(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Shouldn't two candidates for the same position for the same company get roughly the same salary, regardless of where they live?

I don't know. Maybe. Within the US, there are markets where decent, experienced software engineers earn half of what a software engineer in San Francisco would earn, and they would also probably have a comparable quality of life. Outside the US, there are markets out there where the going rate for decent, experienced software engineers is 15 times less than the going rate for a software engineer in San Francisco. Due to the relative decrease in purchasing power, the salary that's 15 times lower gives these people a good quality of life comparable to (or possibly even better than) life in San Francisco. Is it exploiting them to pay them 15 times less given that their quality of life is the same, or even higher, than people in San Francisco? Would it be fair to people in San Francisco, or other locations, to do this? Should the Wikimedia Foundation pay people in this market 15 times more than they would earn at another company? As Gergő said, would that be a responsible use of donor funds? I don't have the answer to these questions. They are very hard questions where there is no obviously correct answer. Dan

Peter Southwood

2:43 p.m.

This is the point I was working on. I also have no confident answer to this problem, but have a gut feel it is somewhere in between the extremes. There is also the point that most people have some choice in where they live, though I do not have any useful suggestion of how that should be factored into the calculation. San Francisco does seem to be a rather expensively arbitrary choice of address, which may be influencing the way the foundation operates. Cheers, Peter -----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Dan Garry (Deskana) Sent: 12 September 2020 18:38 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation and affiliates disclosing salaries on job ads & the effect of this on workplace equity On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 at 12:39, Nathan <nawrich(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Shouldn't two candidates for the same position for the same company get roughly the same salary, regardless of where they live?

Chris Keating

11 Sep 11 Sep

8:05 a.m.

Glad to see this is prompting some discussion! Dan - Asking candidates for their current salary is prohibited in San Francisco

...

as of July 2018 [1] which means that, as a San Francisco based organisation, the Foundation will undoubtedly not be doing this.

Very glad to hear it!

...

There are some complexities in disclosing salary ranges for the Foundation. One practice that can be used for encouraging diversity in candidate applications is to specify that a position is open to candidates with a wide range of experience and in all locations in the world, in which case the salary range posted will be so large that it will basically be meaningless.

That's a fair point. Though it would be possible for the WMF to be clearer about this - if a post is advertised but it could end up at several different pay scales based on how senior a post it ends up being, that could be noted. And the method by which salary for non-SF-based roles is calculated could also be explained... "On our US Office scale this role would pay $50-60k, but as candidates could be appointed anywhere in the world we adjust salaries based on the cost of living where you are located". I'm guessing the WMF has developed a systematic method of doing this somehow. Thanks, Chris

Michael Peel

5:23 p.m.

This seems to be a restriction against employers asking for someone’s salary history, not against including the expected salary range in a job advert. Having occasionally looked at WMF job adverts, it’s always seemed odd to me that the salary ranges haven’t been mentioned at all (my occasional questions about this went unanswered). Personally, I would never apply for a position that doesn’t have an advertised salary range, and I can only imagine how this would affect those that aren’t white men. It’s probably particularly important in the case of San Francisco to figure out if it would even be a practical living wage. Thanks, Mike

...

On 11 Sep 2020, at 12:00, Dan Garry (Deskana) <djgwiki(a)gmail.com> wrote: Asking candidates for their current salary is prohibited in San Francisco as of July 2018 [1] which means that, as a San Francisco based organisation, the Foundation will undoubtedly not be doing this. To my knowledge, this wasn't done by the Foundation before either, but we can confidently state that it won't be done now. There are some complexities in disclosing salary ranges for the Foundation. One practice that can be used for encouraging diversity in candidate applications is to specify that a position is open to candidates with a wide range of experience and in all locations in the world, in which case the salary range posted will be so large that it will basically be meaningless. On the other hand, another good practice for encouraging diversity is to source internally for senior positions, which opens up more junior roles that can be sourced externally, in which case a salary range can be more meaningful and helpful. It's hard to figure out what the right balance is. Regardless, more public transparency in salary banding would be good to see. Dan [1]: https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/legal-and-compliance/state-and-local… On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 at 10:44, Chris Keating <chriskeatingwiki(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Dan Garry (Deskana)

12 Sep 12 Sep

12:39 p.m.

On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 at 22:23, Michael Peel <email(a)mikepeel.net> wrote:

...

This seems to be a restriction against employers asking for someone’s salary history, not against including the expected salary range in a job advert.

Yes. Apologies, the "undoubtedly not doing this" written in my earlier email was a bit unclear. Thanks for the clarity. Dan

Gergő Tisza

11 Sep 11 Sep

11:43 a.m.

On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 2:44 AM Chris Keating <chriskeatingwiki(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

There's a campaign(1) for nonprofits to disclose the salaries, or at least salary ranges, on job ads. (...) I know practices vary within the movement - I believe the WMF never mentions salaries on ads, and I don't know whether the range is disclosed to applicants or not - some chapters I know do advertise a salary. However, I'd urge all entities within the movement that hire staff to disclose the expected salary ranges for posts they are advertising, as part of their commitment to equality, diversity and inclusion.

FWIW, the WMF does at least disclose its salary ranges internally to staff, which I think does a lot to help with more equitable compensation. I hope they will disclose publicly some day; until then, if you work at the WMF, you can help by entering your salary into transparency projects like Glassdoor [1]. Also, executive compensation is public due to US legal requirements for charitable organizations, and is tracked on meta [2]. Probably not that helpful to most candidates, but might be used to calibrate overall pay levels compared to other organizations. [1] https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Wikimedia-Foundation-Salaries-E38331.htm [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_salaries

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participants (8)

Chris Keating
Dan Garry (Deskana)
Gergő Tisza
Gnangarra
Jan Ainali
Michael Peel
Nathan
Peter Southwood